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Author Topic: Utilities: Has the ROM hacking community finally found a patching format to call their own?  (Read 32449 times)

mz

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The mere fact that there are so many frontends written for xdelta is proof that it is not user friendly.
I would say that so many people writing stuff for xdelta is proof that it's actually good/useful for most people, unlike this BPS thing...

Pennywise

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Yeah, xdelta UI comes bundled with a grand total of three files and one is a readme. It doesn't get more easy and simple as that. Who cares if it's a front end, it does the job very well.

Tater Bear

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Yeah, xdelta UI comes bundled with a grand total of three files and one is a readme. It doesn't get more easy and simple as that. Who cares if it's a front end, it does the job very well.

I give up, you guys lack the ability to read.  Xdelta UI is always the first thing that pops up when I search "xdelta", but I don't know why people write frontends for it anyways. xdelta is possibly the easiest software to use, that is why it has such "wide spread" use among average people. ROM hackers like me are too dumb to see that and that is why we have stuck with ips all these years.

I would say that so many people writing stuff for xdelta is proof that it's actually good/useful for most people, unlike this BPS thing...

All I can say is that that makes no sense what so ever. Xdelta has been around for awhile and that is why it has more stuff written for it. I guess we should never upgrade to different operating systems, programming languages or any new technology, because the older stuff has more things written for it and therefore are better.  ::).

 :thumbsup: Don't try new medicines either, they aren't as prescribed as the older stuff.  :thumbsup:

PhOeNiX

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A patching format is not user-friendly, it is a patching format, period. The motivation behind the existance of many frontends for xdelta is that the programming API for generating and applying xdelta patches is horribly programmed and not documented at all . Once one will embed the xdelta patching code into a GUI program, xdelta would become the de facto patching standard for the ROM hacking community. This is a problem that I was considering to resolve with Delta Patcher 2.0, that would include the xdelta3 source code inside the executable, reducing the amount of GUI widgets (like the log window).
BPS is a very good specification for a patching standard and I would be very happy to see new hacking projects using BPS but it lacks programmers at implementing a fast and optimal algorithm for generating BPS patches.

Tater Bear

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A patching format is not user-friendly, it is a patching format, period. The motivation behind the existance of many frontends for xdelta is that the programming API for generating and applying xdelta patches is horribly programmed and not documented at all . Once one will embed the xdelta patching code into a GUI program, xdelta would become the de facto patching standard for the ROM hacking community. This is a problem that I was considering to resolve with Delta Patcher 2.0, that would include the xdelta3 source code inside the executable, reducing the amount of GUI widgets (like the log window).

We are talking about the application and it is great as it is, so you shouldn't waste your time writing any thing further for it.  :thumbsup:

BPS is a very good specification for a patching standard and I would be very happy to see new hacking projects using BPS but it lacks programmers at implementing a fast and optimal algorithm for generating BPS patches.

Who cares that beat functions fast enough for 90% of the ROM hacking projects out there. Nobody should use it, because xdelta is older and has less annoying features that would give us options that some of us would not use.

PhOeNiX

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Who cares that beat functions fast enough for 90% of the ROM hacking projects out there.

This is not true, ROM hacking cannot stick to NES/SNES hacking forever. Playstation, Playstation 2, Wii, PSP, NDS and many other gaming platforms whose games are more than 300 MB in size need a fast patching tool, regardless of the game size. As I can see, RHDN is a community devoted at very old console hacking like NES/SNES, Genesis etc. but it is slowly moving to 32 bit systems like PSX, as recently opened threads demonstrate. When BPS would become fast enough to produce patches for ISO and NDS cart images, I will definitely drop xdelta.

P.S. By forcing BPS to do checksum verification, many patches obtained from an ISO image would not work in many cases, since ISO images are very dependent on the software you used to make them. This is why the xdelta format is suitable for such tasks, since it can be used to produce checksum-less patches.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 03:16:31 pm by PhOeNiX »

KaioShin

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Who cares that beat functions fast enough for 90% of the ROM hacking projects out there.

So does IPS. And xdelta works for everything where IPS fails. And again, if you just want to replace IPS for SNES level stuff, UPS already tried that. For old games there is just no advantage at all over UPS. The only new thing here is the delta patching, which is needed for big and new games. And that's where patch creation fails! This project is simply stillborn.

The only thing that a new format could bring to the table would be one that works across the board from tiny to biggest files. And beat just fails here, end of story. But it's ok, continue throwing a tantrum.
All my posts are merely personal opinions and not statements of fact, even if they are not explicitly prefixed by "In my opinion", "IMO", "I believe", or similar modifiers. By reading this disclaimer you agree to reply in spirit of these conditions.

Tater Bear

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This is not true, ROM hacking cannot stick to NES/SNES hacking forever.
Poor MD, SMS, GBA, GB. No love for them  :'(  ;)

Playstation, Playstation 2, Wii, PSP, NDS and many other gaming platforms whose games are more than 300 MB in size need a fast patching tool, regardless of the game size. As I can see, RHDN is a community devoted at very old console hacking like NES/SNES, Genesis etc. but it is slowly moving to 32 bit systems like PSX, as recently opened threads demonstrate. When BPS would become fast enough to produce patches for ISO and NDS cart images, I will definitely drop xdelta.

Even if somebody writes a faster implementation, it is pointless. If you didn't notice from several people in this thread, there is nothing worthwhile about the BPS format. There are no problems that need addressing. Clearly byuu is such an ass, that anything he writes is by extension worthless. I pray he doesn't waste his time and find some cure for cancer, then we will have to prove to everyone that it is unnecessary, chemotherapy and radiation are good enough.

Some loser in another forum is looking at making a faster implementation, but I will make sure to point him this way so he can lose interest in his project.  :thumbsup:

The only thing that a new format could bring to the table would be one that works across the board from tiny to biggest files. And beat just fails here, end of story. But it's ok, continue throwing a tantrum.

Yeah, h.264 was a waste of time when it was developed. The reference encoder was slow as hell and there was no alternatives at its finalization, but some idiots decided to do their own implementation based on the spec and created x264. Morons, the only new thing it offered was HD and a Mpeg could still be made to do that. People should always stick to the first implementation and use that to judge a format. I wish everyone was as smart as you KaioShin, but unfortunately they are not and we are stuck with stupid formats like h.264. The worse part is now we have h.265 and the reference encoder is even slower, please educate the world about how pointless it is.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 03:52:37 pm by Tater Bear »

Klarth

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Discussions like this are why human nature is flawed.  There will always be schisms over the most trivial topics.  Here's my take on this thread.


PhOeNiX

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Even if somebody writes a faster implementation, it is pointless. If you didn't notice from several people in this thread, there is nothing worthwhile about the BPS format. There are no problems that need addressing. Clearly byuu is such an ass, that anything he writes is by extension worthless.

It seems that you can't read what I write: "BPS is a very good specification for a patching standard and I would be very happy to see new hacking projects using BPS". So, no one here is saying that byuu is an ass, don't spread something that no one has said.
Quote from: Tater Bear"
People should always stick to the first implementation and use that to judge a format. I wish everyone was a smart as you KaioShin
As you said earlier, we are not talking about the patch format, we are arguing about patchers, so we are saying that beat is not useful at all at this state, it seems that you want to understand only what it is confortable to you.

Tater Bear

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It seems that you can't read what I write: "BPS is a very good specification for a patching standard and I would be very happy to see new hacking projects using BPS". So, no one here is saying that byuu is an ass, don't spread something that no one has said.

Look up this word, sarcasm.

we are saying that beat is not useful at all at this state, it seems that you want to understand only what it is confortable to you.

I was agreeing with you. The fact that it works on only 90% of the existing ROM hacks, makes it completely useless.  :thumbsup:

PhOeNiX

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I was agreeing with you. The fact that it works on only 90% of the existing ROM hacks, makes it completely useless.  :thumbsup:

I don't like to repeat myself, this is not true, the 90% of rom hacks out there are not for NES/SNES GBA SMD GENESIS and whatever up to 16bit console you can imagine. The whole set of rom hacks done by SadNES city is prevalently on PSX, Gemini works on PSX, every single human being on GBATemp works on NDS. Are you still sure that the 90% of rom hacks out there will find beat useful? As KaioShin stated, the "90%" of rom hacks that you are claiming to be confortable with BPS are also confortable with UPS and IPS, so, the only advantage of BPS over UPS/IPS etc is delta patching, that is useful for other type gaming console.
I will not repeat myself one more time, I hope you got it.

BRPXQZME

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I have never met a programmer that prefers to implement complex crap when there is a simpler alternative. [...] Many, if not most, programmers like retaining some level of control over their work.
Not to point fingers at anyone in particular, but a lot of people do the former because of the latter....
we are in a horrible and deadly danger

PhOeNiX

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GPL'd programs, and other open source variants were defined for code reuse and not to reinvent the wheel. IMHO, there is no point to recode something to take control over it, since you have any level of control over open source code. xdelta is awful in its code, but it is still usable as a patching library if you are good enough.  A fantastic contribution to the romhacking community would be an alternative implementation of xdelta or a portable patching library for such a format.

Tater Bear

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I don't like to repeat myself, this is not true, the 90% of rom hacks out there are not for NES/SNES GBA SMD GENESIS and whatever up to 16bit console you can imagine. The whole set of rom hacks done by SadNES city is prevalently on PSX, Gemini works on PSX, every single human being on GBATemp works on NDS. Are you still sure that the 90% of rom hacks out there will find beat useful?

Hey if you feel there are more hacks available for newer systems, then be my guest. I will not try to change your mind.  :thumbsup:

If you ever get bored add up the hacks currently available for these older system (From the atari to last 16-bit systems) and don't forget the old computer systems and arcade cabinets. I am sure you are right and the entirety of several decades worth of game has less hacks than more modern system hacks that we have only just recently figured out how to hack and distribute in the past couple of years.

Not to point fingers at anyone in particular, but a lot of people do the former because of the latter....

True. (No sarcasm implied)

creeperton

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« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2012, 04:07:24 pm »
.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 01:21:12 am by creeperton »

PhOeNiX

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You really don't want to undersatand, there could be also 100% of rom hacks out there that are confortable with BPS, but they are all rom hacks that are confortable with any other patching format invented. So BPS is pointless for such hacks, got it?

Tater Bear

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You really don't want to undersatand, there could be also 100% of rom hacks out there that are confortable with BPS, but they are all rom hacks that are confortable with any other patching format invented. So BPS is pointless for such hacks, got it?

I already agreed with you that BPS features are useless. There are older formats that get the job done, without annoying feature or options. Why must I keep agreeing with you, when will you ever be satisfied? I am only human, if you prick me do I not bleed?

PhOeNiX

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There is no point to continue, since seems that you like only trolling people. These were my arguments, go in peace.

Zoinkity

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I'm not quite certain why anyone is saying that delta patching is useless for small files.  It's usefulness is dependant on how data has been altered.  If you shift data any delta patcher is going to produce a better patch, regardless filesize.

At any rate, I'll probably be using it for N64 hacks nowadays.  It's more suited to what I do and there isn't an issue with automation.