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Author Topic: Can't figure out this sentence  (Read 3810 times)

SteveMartin

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Can't figure out this sentence
« on: October 12, 2011, 04:03:31 pm »
Text from Moon for PSX. I can't really take a stab at it as I get lost each time I read it. Could really use some advice from you guys :)

音楽と一言で言っても、アーティストの主張とそれを受け入れるだけのリスナーの感性っていうのが
相互に作用して成り立つわけで、それが音楽というものが今まで淘汰されながらも続いてる証拠さ。

Thanks!
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DarknessSavior

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2011, 05:16:50 pm »
Jeez. Lemme give it a shot.

"If you look at 'music' as a word in itself, it's supposed to be when the listeners simply accept the artist's claims and are affected emotionally by it. The two relationships should work off of one another. However, that type of music has proven itself to be fairly rare these days."

Or something like that. The "claims" part seems to convey the message and themes that a musician conveys in music. And that last part about "proof" is kind of hard to convey.

But I did my best. >_>

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BRPXQZME

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2011, 10:58:37 pm »
Though “music” is but one word, as [わけで] it consists of [して成り立つ] an artist’s assertions [アーティストの主張] and the senses of the listener [リスナーの感性] who only passively takes them in [受け入れるだけの] acting on each other [っていうのが相互に作用], <buffer overflowed, root@localhost is belong to you>

Spoiler:
okay, it’s more like I’m not completely sure how to interpret that last bit; here’s my stab at it:

while things I would call music are now limited, [something] is enduring proof [of that].

the first part of it more literally being ‘things where I’d say “that is music”’, and “limited” being more like the word for “natural selection”—so more like trying to justify pickiness by sounding intelligent, as intellectuals are wont to do :D
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SteveMartin

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2011, 03:32:10 pm »

音楽と一言で言っても、アーティストの主張とそれを受け入れるだけのリスナーの感性っていうのが
相互に作用して成り立つわけで、それが音楽というものが今まで淘汰されながらも続いてる証拠さ。

Thanks guys, I think I'm getting it a bit more now. I'm trying to dissect it by going from literal to more naturally sounding English. Here's my try..

Quote
Even saying music in one word, the fact[わけで] that the artists claims/assertions/ideas and the emotions which the listener only passively takes in work off of one another is (|continuing/enduring proof|proof) that (|what is called music|what I call music||music)continues to (|die out|be prone to natural selection|be limited.)


I think maybe in translation it's probably OK to just get rid of the beginning part "音楽と一言で言っても" since it eventually gets to it all being about music anyway. Also I think 続いてる is supposed to apply to 淘汰されながらも rather than 証拠, though of course there's a lot of ways to word things :P Anyway, here's my spin on it now..

Quote
The fact that an artists ideas and the senses that the listener can only passively take in work off one another is testament to the continuing natural selection within the music industry.

There's something else I want to say instead of music "industry", just put industry for now since I can't think of the word :x Something like "music itself" or "the concept of music" or something like that, only it's a single word.... Hope I'm making sense heh.

Well, anymore suggestions?
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LostTemplar

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2011, 06:25:14 pm »
In my opinion, it's actually grammatically impossible that 続いてる refers to 淘汰されながらも (which by the way means something along the lines of "although being subject to (natural) selection"). As I interpret it, それが証拠さ is the main clause (of the second part) and 音楽というものが今まで淘汰されながらも続いてる is a relative clause belonging to 証拠. So my humble take is (being not very eloquent):

"...and this/that is the proof that music, although being subject to natural selection, has persisted until now."

But of course, I'm not a 100% sure. I also don't know exactly what それが refers to - whether it means the clause just preceding it or whether it means something in a sentence before this whole part.

SteveMartin

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2011, 11:47:21 pm »
それが definitely is referring to the previous clause. This is the very first line that this character says to you when you meet him, so there's no previous context anywhere that it's working off of.

Quote
The fact that an artists ideas and the senses that the listener can only passively take in work off one another is proof that music, although being subject to natural selection, has persisted until now.

Just taking what you wrote and putting it in there  :laugh: But in any case, I wonder if that works well now? The main question is, does it even make sense =p
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DarknessSavior

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2011, 11:49:15 pm »
それが definitely is referring to the previous clause. This is the very first line that this character says to you when you meet him, so there's no previous context anywhere that it's working off of.

Just taking what you wrote and putting it in there  :laugh: But in any case, I wonder if that works well now? The main question is, does it even make sense =p
It definitely sounds better now. I dunno what the hell I was on for that second sentence when I translated it.

~DS
Red Comet: :'( Poor DS. Nobody loves him like RC does. :'(
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BRPXQZME

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2011, 12:42:56 am »
But of course, I'm not a 100% sure. I also don't know exactly what それが refers to - whether it means the clause just preceding it or whether it means something in a sentence before this whole part.
Sometimes それが means but/however (indicating something contrary to expectations).

This usage isn’t frequent enough that an Internet search makes it easy to confirm (I can’t even seem to find it in my dictionary), but I vaguely seem to recall it was in the textbooks I had in high school (which tended to focus on extremely unimportant details like that and taught somewhat dated Japanese to boot). But a thorough search seems to confirm this, whether I am misremembering it or not :D
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Eien Ni Hen

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2011, 01:03:52 am »
Quote
The fact that an artists ideas and the senses that the listener can only passively take in work off one another is proof that music,
although being subject to natural selection, has persisted until now.

This sounds like a run-on sentence and it's way too Engrishy. The original Japanese is much snootier. Also, senses aren't something that can be "taken in" so that bit doesn't make sense. This is just a suggestion for the line in English, but I think it sounds better:

Music is simply the artist's ideas coupled with that which can only be imbibed by the listener's senses. The fact that these two things work off one another is proof that music--although subject to natural selection--has persisted until now.
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SteveMartin

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2011, 01:36:34 am »
Sounds great to me. I was a bit afraid of my attempt sounding like it runs off a bit too much, but it seemed possible to condense it all in one sentence and get it all across. Guess not.. Good call on "senses." That went completely past me.
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geishaboy

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2011, 03:16:11 am »
I have rolled this sentence around in my head for about an hour, and and came up with;

"Saying that music is made up of the assertions of an artist the emotions that a listener gets specifically from what is being asserted, is to say that music is created from a mutual interaction, which is why music continues on to this day, despite ever changing."

"To say that the concepts of an artist and the effect those concepts have on the listeners emotions is what makes music, is to say that music consists of a mutual interaction. That in itself shows that while music may be ever changing, it has not ceased to exist."

"The evidence that music still persists to this day, even if selective, is that it consists of the piece that the artist created and the emotions that the listener gets from that piece, thus making music itself a mutual interaction."

"The reason that music continues on to this day, despite it's own evolution, is because it is in itself a mutual interaction. Music is but the ideas of an artist and the emotional effect of the ideas on the listener"

Unhappy with my own shitty translations I pulled a co worker aside, pointed at the screen and asked them what the hell it meant. The reaction I got was "おかしい日本語っ、意味わかんない"

Not much help

I can't really tell if it is supposed to sound crazy or not

BRPXQZME

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2011, 03:58:20 am »
Having misspent much of my youth reading crazy on the Internet, I’d have to say this is probably supposed to be a bit crazy, yes.
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LostTemplar

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2011, 04:55:37 am »
Over here in Germany, German scientists often like to write academic texts as complicated as they can (using foreign words, really long and convoluted sentences...) in order to sound "intelligent" or "educated" although nobody else knows what the fuck their texts even mean. It's not unusual actually that the English texts are a lot more understandable despite being in a foreign language. Maybe it's something like that...

X-death

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2011, 02:47:44 pm »
Steve why you don't reply my PM ?
i have no news about you since 3 weeks now  :-[
you have stopped your interrest about the project ?

excuse me for the intrusion in this topic and the OFF topic it self, but just need a reply

SteveMartin

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Re: Can't figure out this sentence
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2011, 03:19:50 pm »
Damn, sorry man. I forgot all about your email and PM. I always see that stuff but am too tired from the day and think I'll respond later, only to forget  :banghead: I just moved out to a university within these last three weeks, and my sleeping pattern's getting a wreck, so I've been a bit absent minded(admittedly I'm like this a lot) ;p Will respond to your email now.

Anyway, the text for this character is probably supposed to sound a bit crazy. He comes off a bit arrogant in his knowledge of music, so the idea fits :) I think  your translations work pretty well, geishaboy.
Currently working on Moon: Remix RPG Adventure translation