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Author Topic: And More Kanji Help  (Read 4366 times)

Jorpho

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And More Kanji Help
« on: October 04, 2011, 11:28:01 am »
I spent a while poking at these, and now I'm not so much interested in exactly what this means as I am in exactly how one can successfully look up the characters (and why I have so completely failed to do so  >:().  How do you count the strokes?  What radicals do you look for?  What would the SKIP codes be?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 11:35:57 am by Jorpho »
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Eien Ni Hen

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Re: And More Kanji Help
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 12:51:40 pm »
I'm not an expert on stroke-counting, but the skip codes for these two kanji are:

3-1-7
1-3-8
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Jorpho

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Re: And More Kanji Help
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2011, 12:57:56 pm »
Thank you.  I would have never guessed 3-1-7 ; it looks so much like 2.  Why is that?

(Also, why can't I find that L-shape in the 1-stroke radical table...?)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 01:13:27 pm by Jorpho »
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Eien Ni Hen

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Re: And More Kanji Help
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2011, 01:30:16 pm »
I have no idea why the "L" shape is counted as 1 stroke instead of 2. My guess is because it's typically written in a single motion.

And the "L" shape isn't a radical. Radicals for the kanji 直 are 十 and 目.

I'd really recommend familiarizing yourself with radicals before trying to look up kanji (especially complex ones). This page seems to have a full list of radicals ordered by stroke count. Also, JWPce has a nifty built-in function that lets you search for kanji by radicals.
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Jorpho

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Re: And More Kanji Help
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2011, 01:57:22 pm »
Also, JWPce has a nifty built-in function that lets you search for kanji by radicals.
That it does; that was the radical table I was referring to.

If the "L" isn't a radical, what is it?
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LostTemplar

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Re: And More Kanji Help
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2011, 01:58:34 pm »
One way would be to use the handwriting recognition included with the Windows IME; in my experience, that's the fastest way to look up any unknown kanji. You have to be at least a little bit familiar with stroke order etc., though.

And it's the only correct way to write that "L" shape as one single stroke in 直. Same goes for example with 県 or 置. The reason for that is probably to achieve a good "brush flow".

BRPXQZME

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Re: And More Kanji Help
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2011, 05:46:12 pm »
If the "L" isn't a radical, what is it?
A vertical stroke and a horizontal stroke (in Japanese typography, anyway).

In terms of proper writing and stroke counts, however, one stroke.
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Jorpho

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Re: And More Kanji Help
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2011, 06:28:30 pm »
A vertical stroke and a horizontal stroke (in Japanese typography, anyway).

In terms of proper writing and stroke counts, however, one stroke.
I suppose the proper question is, are there more things like this that look like radicals but aren't radicals?  And how can you tell?
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Eien Ni Hen

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Re: And More Kanji Help
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2011, 07:05:28 pm »
Quote
I suppose the proper question is, are there more things like this that look like radicals but aren't radicals?  And how can you tell?

Yes, lots of them. >:D

The only way I know to distinguish radicals and non-radicals is by studying the list of existing radicals (like in JWPce) and searching using those. It's difficult at first, but once you get used to seeing the list of radicals (over and over again) it gets easier. In addition to this, I recommend familiarizing yourself with the SKIP method. It's very helpful when you can't find kanji based on the radical.
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BRPXQZME

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Re: And More Kanji Help
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2011, 07:27:55 pm »
I suppose the proper question is, are there more things like this that look like radicals but aren't radicals?
Yes.

And how can you tell?
There are only 214 radicals.* You can tell by whether it’s on the list (or perhaps more accurately, whether it is equivalent to something on the list; e.g. 氵 is equivalent to 水, 忄 is equivalent to 心, etc. The point is, it’s a finite set).

The set of radicals isn’t really a set of every possible describable pattern that shows up in the set of all hanzi. It’s a set of patterns that merely shows usefully distinguishing common traits between characters (it was arrived at for the sake of dictionary lookup—albeit very deliberately—rather than for the sake of being able to describe the construction of any given character). Aside from the one-stroke radicals (which are sort of catch-alls—but they don’t actually catch all), almost all the radicals have a definable meaning of some sort (even if the tie to a character’s meaning is incredibly weak).

*There are other systems, but the most common one by far is the Kangxi radical set... as long as we’re not talking about simplified Chinese as used in mainland China, in which case there is an official list of 189.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 07:34:58 pm by BRPXQZME »
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Jorpho

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Re: And More Kanji Help
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2011, 12:23:57 am »
Well, this has all been most educational.  Thanks muchly.
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