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Messages - Mr X

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Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« on: June 10, 2020, 01:49:24 am »
Saber element match boost def
Saber element already boosts atk slightly no need for matching element (unless matchint element boosts atk further)

Saber element of the opposite element boost def against that element (for example an enemy weak to Lumina using light saber boosts def against Lumina spells)

Sabers boosting spell power of a spirit - like Ice Saber boosts Undine spells for example (I remember similarly was done in SD3 hack, sin of mana and it makes a lot of sense).

All these options make sense to me, not gonna disregard any of them.

As for your equipment tweaks I will reply later on that hmsong

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« on: June 09, 2020, 07:58:43 am »
Hey Queue.  First, thanks for making this hack.  I'm had a lot of fun with this.  I especially like how you gave the toggle option.  Some questions though.  Why did you give defense boost to the saber magic?  Under Saber Matches Element hack, you made it so that enemies get defense boost when their element matches their saber.  Why defense, and not offense?  I feel like offense would make more sense.  Could you change it, so the saber element would boost offense instead? (or just make another hack so that saber boosts offense?)  Thanks.

You asked Queue, but will share my opinion on it. It does boost their offense too, example Wolf Lords, Master Ninja's, Terminators go from barely doing any if at all samage physically (if you have proper equipment), to doing roughly about 200 damage when using a saber. But can't say how it works for the rest of the enemies in other areas, the Petit Poseidon when using Ice Saber still wasn't doing any damage to me, so it probably the enemy scaling at fault the original game has.

It makes sense for both cases tbh for both defense and offense.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« on: June 08, 2020, 01:56:04 am »
Well if you have the unique equipment on even with those equipment you wont be too op. The main issue is still the enemies being unbalanced.

For example I got Ninja's Glove and Gauntlets pre Aegagroplon fight. That fight was still tough even with those equipments when you have unique equipment on.

But Lime Slime, Blue Spike, weren't able to do anything to me, but the Gorgon Bull was able to damage me. The mobs of Golden Tower and Dark Palace are still extremely weak.

Then in Grand Palace you have access to: Cockratice Helm, Amulet Helm, Resist Ring, Watchers Ring, Gauntlets are still dropped by the Metal Crawlers, Ninja's Glove. You  become too OP for the bosses of the Grand Palace with them and mobs also being too weak to do anything to you, except Turtlance if they ever cast Herbal Boost which I still haven't seen one cast?

Hence why I suggested takimg a look about moving enemies around, then the only issue that would remain are the bosses.

Also I would probably decrease the defense of Gauntlet and Ninja Gloves but increse the stat they boost to make it more noticable. Have Gauntlet boosting more Strength but provide less physical def, same for Ninja Gloves more Agility but less Physical def (or maybe magic def with this one).

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« on: June 07, 2020, 12:12:14 pm »
I think the Guardian Ring might be too OP to cast it freely with no penalty and MP cost. Don't need any other of the Sprites spell really when they all cost MP, just put up the Guardian Ring. Maybe increase the Magic Charge time when having this ring on?

I enjoyed the new update overall with armors offering something different, I would probably add elemental affinities to all dropable equipment, except those that protect you against more than one status effect.

Also the Rising Sun was indeed OP. But being the only weapon that inflicts engulf and weak power for endgame it might be more balanced. But it's reallt useful for the Ice Continent. Loved other weapons also inflicting Mired instead the Steel Lance proved also useful for Witch Castle and Underground Temple, wherr you will lack magic at that point of the game that's a solid alternative.

Looking forward the other Weapon improvements in the future, especially those spell based.

Stat based weapons should probably just provide a bigger stat boost at the expense of the base attack, they would automatically become better that way imo, so it becomes more noticeable the stats they boost. Like the agility weapons think of them as a light weapon, so less attack but more agile, Strength Weapons being more heavy hitting but less Agile etc.

I played vanilla for about an hour (several times) before giving up. Switching to this made the game more enjoyable. Not completely blind but pretty close.

I think it would be fair enough if there is a list of enemy drops.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« on: June 04, 2020, 03:07:10 am »
@Mr X

Isn't that because you're already familiar with SoM?  The first time I played (20+ years ago), I thought the Sunken Continent had good balance (I didn't know anything about the enemy dropped armor though).  And I definitely struggled a lot in Pure Land.  And that was after upgrading all the armor from Neko (back then, I didn't know about the dropped equip nor SE protection).

Pretty sure everyone that plays a SoM hack is familiar with the game one way or the other. I am not talking about vanilla experience. It's minority that would play Turbo as a first time, or any SoM hack for that matter. Everyone else has some experience with the original game and attempt to play hacks of it.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« on: June 04, 2020, 01:57:01 am »

Oh crap.  I messed up.  Dragon Ring element is supposed to turn on if Equipment Tweak is OFF, not ON.  The description is correct, but I messed it up for the code (it was supposed to be IFNOT, not IF).  Whoops.  Could you please correct that?  Thanks.

@Mr X

The thing is, my main concern for Elemental Equipments is to tweak the elements, not the stats.  Although I can mess around with stats in Equipment Tweaks, that was mostly for giving the missing SEs to the equipments and giving "personal" final equipments in the Mana Fortress.  And I have a vague feeling that messing with the stats would just end up making things worse.

How would it make things worse?

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: June 03, 2020, 09:43:59 pm »
Putting aside how good/bad Wall is, changing Wall to buffing M.Def would be difficult.  The enemy AI checks for the Wall status, and changing it so that it checks for M.Def status (which doesn't even exist) would be pretty difficult.

It's true that Moon Energy/Herbal Boost is pretty OP.  That's probably why it doesn't last as long.  I certainly wouldn't mind it criting only half the time (but not less than that).

Dispelling Wall against the Wall bosses aren't gonna do much.  They just recast immediately.  And if your Shade level is too low, then Dispel ends up failing.

I thought about giving Flower Suit one of the common elements, but it could end up as a weakness in Pure Land (and Sunken Continent), because Pure Land is really diverse in elements (ex: Griffin Hand, Thunder Gigas/Dragon would end up stronger against Earth armor).  So the best I could do was not give it any weakness nor strength.  But I gave it Dryad, so that it'll be weak against Hexas (assuming Cascade Lunar Magic is enabled).

You can't get Power Suit in Pure Land.  That's one of the final armors in the Mana Fortress.  And Queue specifically said that he didn't want some OP armors being available early (that's why he rejected my Vampire Cape idea).

Rebalancing or replacing enemies in certain places isn't exactly my area of expertise.  Well, I'm sure I can replace some enemies, but that'll just end up throwing things off balance, esp the Pure Land monsters, which gives good exp and drops good equipments -- that'll just throw off the balance even more.  The best option is to buff the Atk/Def of the already-existing enemies... but like I said before, that's someone else's territory.

The thing is, if you're overleveled and your magic is grinded to max level, then you're gonna breeze through the game.  I obviously can't speak for Queue, but I'm pretty sure the idea of Turbo hack isn't to make SoM into "experts-only" or "must-grind" game.  It should be friendly to the casual gamers too.  That's why SoM is so loved, despite its many flaws.

Because all we need is Moon energy to last long to be OP. Even with short duration it doesn't matter because of the 2 MP cost you just cast it imdediately back.

Well you gave Vampire Cape and Faerie Cloak elements, might as well give Vestguard and Power suit, but nerf their defenses down.

You can already get access to early OP equipment early in form of Dark Stalkers, Dark Knights, Basilix, Eggplant Man (already appeare on the train might as well make a common enemy). You already have OP equipment available pre Pure Land.

Well the vanilla is loved despite it's flaws but also hated at the same time because of it's flaws. I got SoM for free as a young age from my friend because he hated the games combat and balance for example.

With Turbo you really can level up your spells quicker, and weapons are leveled up by just playing normally really. And you also have access to deafult spirit levels, it's already 100 times better than the vanilla as it is with that alone and other features Turbo offers.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: June 03, 2020, 11:10:00 am »

Okay, here it is:

Code: [Select]
'@OFF $D03EE0 '[01: Bandanna]
'@OFF $D03EEA '[02: Hair Ribbon]
'@OFF $D03EF4 '[03: Rabite Cap]
'@OFF $D03EFE '[04: Head Gear]
@OFF $D03F08 '[05: Quill Cap]
RAW 02 ' Air
'@OFF $D03F12 '[06: Steel Cap]
'@OFF $D03F1C '[07: Golden Tiara]
'@OFF $D03F26 '[08: Raccoon Cap]
'@OFF $D03F30 '[09: Quilted Hood]
'@OFF $D03F3A '[0A: Tiger Cap]
'@OFF $D03F44 '[0B: Circlet]
@OFF $D03F4E '[0C: Ruby Armet]
RAW 08 ' Fire
@OFF $D03F58 '[0D: Unicorn Helm]
RAW 20 ' Light
'@OFF $D03F62 '[0E: Dragon Helm]
'@OFF $D03F6C '[0F: Duck Helm]
'@OFF $D03F76 '[10: Needle Helm]
@OFF $D03F80 '[11: Cockatrice Cap]
RAW 01 ' Earth
'@OFF $D03F8A '[12: Amulet Helm]
@OFF $D03F94 '[13: Griffin Helm]
RAW 02 ' Air
'@OFF $D03F9E '[14: Faerie Crown]

'@OFF $D03FB2 '[16: Overalls]
'@OFF $D03FBC '[17: Kung Fu Suit]
'@OFF $D03FC6 '[18: Midge Robe]
@OFF $D03FD0 '[19: Chain Vest]
RAW 01 ' Earth
'@OFF $D03FDA '[1A: Spiky Suit]
'@OFF $D03FE4 '[1B: Kung Fu Dress]
'@OFF $D03FEE '[1C: Fancy Overalls]
@OFF $D03FF8 '[1D: Chest Guard]
RAW 01 ' Earth
'@OFF $D04002 '[1E: Golden Vest]
@OFF $D0400C '[1F: Ruby Vest]
RAW 08 ' Fire
'@OFF $D04016 '[20: Tiger Suit]
'@OFF $D04020 '[21: Tiger Bikini]
@OFF $D0402A '[22: Magical Armor]
RAW 10 ' Dark
@OFF $D04034 '[23: Tortoise Mail]
RAW 04 ' Water
@OFF $D0403E '[24: Flower Suit]
RAW 80 ' Dryad
'@OFF $D04048 '[25: Battle Suit]
'@OFF $D04052 '[26: Vestguard]
@OFF $D0405C '[27: Vampire Cape]
RAW 10 ' Dark
'@OFF $D04066 '[28: Power Suit]
@OFF $D04070 '[29: Faerie Cloak]
RAW 20 ' Light

'@OFF $D04084 '[2B: Faerie's Ring]
'@OFF $D0408E '[2C: Elbow Pad]
'@OFF $D04098 '[2D: Power Wrist]
'@OFF $D040A2 '[2E: Cobra Bracelet]
@OFF $D040AC '[2F: Wolf's Band]
RAW 40 ' Luna
'@OFF $D040B6 '[30: Silver Band]
@OFF $D040C0 '[31: Golem Ring]
RAW 10 ' Earth
@OFF $D040CA '[32: Frosty Ring]
RAW 04 ' Water
'@OFF $D040D4 '[33: Ivy Amulet]
'@OFF $D040DE '[34: Gold Bracelet]
'@OFF $D040E8 '[35: Shield Ring]
@OFF $D040F2 '[36: Lazuri Ring]
RAW 40 ' Luna
@OFF $D040FC '[37: Guardian Ring]
RAW 80 ' Dryad
'@OFF $D04106 '[38: Gauntlet]
'@OFF $D04110 '[39: Ninja Gloves]
IF Equipment_Tweaks
@OFF $D0411A '[3A: Dragon Ring]
RAW 0C ' Water + Fire
'@OFF $D04124 '[3B: Watcher Ring]
'@OFF $D0412E '[3C: Imp's Ring]
'@OFF $D04138 '[3D: Amulet Ring]
'@OFF $D04142 '[3E: Wristband]

@OFF D8FEDE '[0C: Lazuri Ring]
'RAW 95 84
RAW 95 71
@OFF D8FEE0 '[0D: Guardian Ring]
'RAW 95 71
RAW 95 84

Of course, if you feel something needs to be changed (description or the code), then please feel free to do so.  I'm not even sure if it's [Bonus_Weapon_Damage] that needs to be ON for this to work.

I still couldn't figure out how to make Flower Suit work well in Pure Land while making it vulnerable in AC/GP.

@Mr X

Very well.  I'll add something that adjusts the MP cost for Black Hex (and Dust Flare) when Queue comes up with a system.  The other spells aren't mine to adjust though.

However, I don't think changing Wall to M.Def buff is a good idea.  I mean, while Wall is good, it can also work against you due to reflecting Cure Water.  And it's very unique.  In addition, it'll affect many enemies/bosses that forces players to fight with pure melee (Aegagropilon, Mech Rider 3).

Personally, I don't mind melee attacks being strong (such as Herbal Boost).  In this game, melee attacks are severely underpowered compared to magic, esp during boss fights.

Physical attack is pretty dominant in Turbo I would say. Herbal Boost just makes it a piece of cake.

And Wall got even better in Turbo also with some spells bypassing it. It's a dumb spell that some enemies can't hope to bypass it but are like sitting ducks but that's just my opinion on it. Reflecting every spell is just OP for 6 MP.

Crit rate should serve a function, not have guaranteed Crit Rates for a mere 2mp. I feel bad for the enemies lol.

And playerd aren't necessary forced to fight MR3 and Sheex on Melee when you have Dispel. Raising his Magic Defense still means you do less damage with spells.

Also, how about making the Flower Suit resist Earth instead? The suit also resists some status which is nice.

I would probably give some elemental resistance to Powersuit/Battle Suit/Vestguard too. They are all dropable by enemies too (except Battlesuit but I think an enemy dropped it correct me if I am wrong). But it's still the best equipment you will have for Pure Land.

Also Queue, hmsong in regards to balancing out enemies in Grand Palace how about moving some enemies from Grand Palace to Golden Tower/Dark Palace, while the Eggplant Man/Petit Poseidon, the Pure Land Ghost appearing in Grand Palace?

Element Sword, Steel Scorpion are probably the less threatening enemies in GP so at least moving them?

Dark Knights, Armored Knights, Ninjas in Emperor's castle/Northtown Ruins

Element Sword, Metal Scorpion, Undead Beasts in Golden Tower

Dark Knights, Dark Stalkers, Element Swords in Dark Palace

You would also get some nice equipment from them so you aren't gonna get wrecked from them too. Depending which is easier, editing stats vs moving around enemies. With Magical Armor having Dark resistance you would resist Dark Stalkers Shadow Saber.

If it's easier to move enemies around it would be a fun approach also for mobs. The Grand Palace Bosses will still probably need to be tweaked to match the balance. Especially the Emperor's Guards, Hydra can probably be more threatening by just raising his spell power to at least Level 7 (not sure why the devs had his spell power at level 1?).

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: June 03, 2020, 07:10:26 am »
@Mr X

There are no vanilla evil/undead enemies who are not Dark element.  But I see your point though (enemy element adjust is ON by default after all).  Having said that, if you disable the Revive MP adjust (which makes it cost 10MP), then Lucent Beam would certainly cost less MP, which is a good reason to use Lucent Beam.  Besides, Lucent Beam works on everyone, while Turn Undead works only on certain enemies.  For new players, Turn Undead may be confusing (?).

If Queue makes some weapons adjust the power/cost of some spells, then I guess adjusting the MP cost would make sense.  But not to the magnitude of whooping 16 MP.  That's a bit too much, I think.


I'll post what I have for the Elemental Equipments (and its description) soon.  I'll make the necessary corrections if someone can come up with a good idea to balance AC/GP and PL.

When you say it like that, I guess Primm's offensive spells costing higher makes sense.  But not to the magnitude of 8 MP.  That's just... too much, esp since Popoi uses the same powered spells (of different element) as low as 2MP (ie Freeze, Dark Force).  Such magnitude of high cost makes the spell never be used in practice, and it'll just rot in the corner (outside of crystal ball).  That's certainly what happened when I played SoM the first time.  I much prefer all spells to be practical, if the circumstances are right (that's why I like Turn Undead so much).

@Mr X

Oh yeah, those "missing-special-effect" weapons should have Mire SE.  That's good.

Well if some weapons adjust the cost of some spells that it makes even more sense to raise their MP, and that will only apply to the spells that are considered more OP and something the Girl and the Sprite aren't nornally supposed to do, Queue made a great point hoe the Sprite is suppose to stay the main one to Nuke enemies, not the Girl.

So the Sprite might have an increased MP cost for spells like Dispel, Shadow Saber, Black Hex/Hellfire depending which one is used.

The Girl would get Lucent Beam (with current 8mp), Turn Undead with increased MP cost, Wall, Herbal Boost, Ballon, Dust Flare basically spells that uses to attack enemies.

Wall is an exception because of how OP it is, I would honestly change that spell to just buffing your Magic Defense, reflecting every spell is just so ridiculous I don't think people realize that. Same with Herbal Boost, both these spells I think would either need to have an increased MP then reduced with a weapon, or be changed entirely because the Bow and Boomerang level 8 are useless when you have a spell for 2 MP for guaranteed Crit rates.

Option 1:
Wall - Boosts Defense against Spells, basically like Gnome's Def Up but for Spells, being kinda similar elements by nature also.
Herbal Boost - Boosts the rate of the Crit rate for a long duration. And this would stack with those Weapons that boost Cirt Rate so combined they would give you close to guaranteed crit rate, making those weapons more useful, and adding a ring that gives a slight crit rate boost too maybe?

This way the MP cost increase would only be for Purim's attacking spells (Turn Undead, Lucent Beam, Dust Flare and so on), while Popoie gets an MP cost increase For Shadow Saber, Hellfire/Black Hex and maybe MP/HP absorb (a slight increse with these two tho), and certain weapon levels decrease the MP cost of those spells.

Option 2 - with the base MP increase (decresed with a Weapon), to avoid them being abused, like I abused them till now.

Edit: Actually Gold Bracelet might not be needed to boost chance of rare items when you can use Lunatic, forgot totally about that.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: June 03, 2020, 05:36:57 am »

Mr X, the more I've thought it through, the more I think having some weapons act as spell focuses could be a good way to jam in some character specializing. The weapons that are strong against a certain enemy type are almost always unimportant (or maybe literally always unimportant? I only care about status effect procs personally), and there's generally multiple weapons with the trait for a given enemy type, so tying the enemy type weakness to either a certain element, or a certain type of spell could be a good route. An obvious one is the strong against undead weapons for turn undead (just revivify in general to remove the need for a mana cost reduction), though I'd like it to affect at least one spell for the sprite. Doing the same with anti-animal, -slime, -insect, -dragon, etc. would potentially give those weapons better purpose, and since the point is to benefit spell casting, them having bad attack power wouldn't be critical, and there being multiple weapons per trait means you can choose a weapon type you don't personally find fun to sacrifice as a spell focus.

For the Rising Sun, and I think it's two other non-level-1, non-level-9 weapons without any special features, I've always meant to just give them something. I've wanted to see how overpowered engulf would be on the Rising Sun.

I'm rather tied up this week, so it'll be a bit before I can really get anything ready for testing, but I've been considering the approach I'd take to implementing this stuff.

I always like to use the Herald Sword (effective to Lizards) on Jabberwocky even tho the damage seems the same probably because it's type was changed to Dragon, making the weapon really only useful on one mob lol. Same with other weapons the Dragon weapons for Pure Land Dragon bosses, and the Anti-Undead and Insect/Metallic on the Empire.

Adding another purpose to them would be very cool, as you said I personally stick to status infliction weapons, endgame I reforge some weapons to inflict Poison and Balloon those combos are so OP I never have to use spells for mobs.

Rising sun with Engulf might be worth a try to see how it fares probably will turn into a very strong weapon. There is also the Steel Lance and Javelin (both level 2) that do nothing, probably have them inflict Mired status?

Besides the Weapons effecive on certain enemies giving them more purpose, I would maybe take a look too at the agility/weapons that inflict slow, I don't think I have ever seen a noticeable use for them.

Constitution boosting Weapons - reduce MP cost of Wall (increasing the base MP of that spell)

Strength boosting Weapons -

Crit Rate boosting Weapons -

Agility Weapons -

Weapons that inflict Slow -

Int/Wisdom Boosting wWeapons -

Anti Plant/Fish Weapons -

Anti Slime/Lizard Weapons -

Anti Insect/Metallic Weapons -

Anti Undead Weapons - reduce MP cost of Turn Undead (of course increasing it's MP cost) and Lucent Beam just makes so much sense here.

Anti Dragon Weapons -

Rising Sun - Inflicts Engulf

Steel Lance - Inflicts Mired

Javelin - Inflicts Mired or Balloon but have a later weapon inflict Mired because of how OP Balloon and Poison are.

Herbal Boost, Wall, Lucid Barrier, Balloon, Blaze Barrier, Saint Saber, Flame Saber, Black Hex/Hellfire (depending which one you use), are possible other spells that might be good to get an MP increase but with certain Weapons get then their MP decreased.

As for Armors more thought need to be put into it but another idea that I had in mind is give Gold Bracelet the ability to increase the rate of the rare items you get from Enemies so you are more encouraged to farm yet not be as tedious to get certain items that you want, but get them actually through gameplay. That is if it's even possible to do that.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: June 02, 2020, 01:46:14 am »

You still forgot that Turn Undead does the same damage on all non shade enemies they just need to be undead, while Lucent Beam only on Shade enemies. Hence why I would raise turn Undeads MP cost.

Restoring MP is the games feature tho. Why do you think MP Absorb, Shadow Saber and two mp restoring items exist? And it's not constantly, you aren't gonna use those spells constantly as well, if you wanna use more often those spells have an alternative by making weapons more useful making them reduce MP cost of some spells.

For example level 5 the anti-Undead Weapons reducing MP cost of Turn Undead and Lucent Beam.  Doing the same with Black Hex/Hellfire depending which you have on and so on with other spells. It created a nice synergy with spells and certain weapons, and making the weapon reforging a lot more useful.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: May 30, 2020, 04:31:44 am »

Honestly, I don't see why Turn Undead should be nerfed.  It's not very frequently used, and it certainly doesn't replace Lucent Beam (Turn Undead is Luna element).  Even its power is only the same level as Lucent Beam (unless my Spell Balance is used, and even that is only marginal).  And as for the cost, you can just turn off the Revive MP Cost readjustment -- that makes Revive cost 10 MP.  Lucent Beam being 8MP is definitely unreasonable though (which is why I reduced it to 4MP in the Balance patch).

It should be nerfed because I never used Lucent Beam, it is just more effective on Undead not just shade enemies, for a 4mp cost being more effective on any undead doesn't matter  their element, ever since Turn Undead was released I never used Lucent Beam again.

It would be kinda cool to have these OP spells with restrictions but then that restriction be halved by a weapon giving weapons more importance.

And you have infinite mp resources, 99 MP, 2 items that restore MP. I never used items also fyi either.

Hmm.  My opinion on upping the MP Cost to that magnitude seems very counter-productive.  Sure, it can make spells less useful, but it also makes the game quite frustrating.  The point of any hack is to make the game more enjoyable, and I don't think I'm going to enjoy the game as much if the MP cost was so high.  I think Magic Recharge and/or Spell Pause is good enough nerf.

And there's also a strong part of me that wishes to honor the original game.  A little tweaks here and there is fine, but to completely overhaul the magic cost to several times seems unreasonable.

And let's not forget that raising the MP cost would affect the enemies too.  Unlike SD3, enemies have finite MP.  For example, if you enable kethinov's "Harder Final Boss", Dark Lick runs out of his MP long before he dies (so for the 2nd half, he just does little casting motion with no spells coming out).

It's not counter productive with MP Absorb, Shadow Saber, two mp restoring items, possible equipment/Weapons reducing MP cost possibly being also as a possible idea.

Enjoyable is subjective. To me this would be more thrilling and enjoyable for sure, and add more depth to weapons/equipment.  4-8mp cost when you have up to 99 mp and various ways to restore your mp allowing for infinite mp restoring. 12 mp and above for the OP spells, max 16 sounds pretty fair with all the mp restoring items, all the mp you have or with the idea reduce mp cost of some spells with certain weapons.

As for enemies that's easy, there is already the feature to raise their MP, up to 7 times iirc?

May 31, 2020, 02:16:53 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
An idea I just thought about Vampire cape that could thematically fit is by giving it some Vampire properties.
So if Purim or Popoie equips it, MP/HP Absorb spell cast on them has the reverse effect. Of course that wont apply for Moon/Shadow Saber, they wouldn't be fully undeads, but just a bit of it.

Also throwing another idea out there about level 9 weapons - since there are 8 weapons how about giving each weapon a very slight element for damage, but also boost the spells of that element, but takes the weakness of the opposite element?

Water - Fire
Air - Earth
Light - Dark
Moon and Tree could be exceptions but you take more damage physically, since those two have always been those weird elements in the Mana series, or maybe simply weak to one other as with other elements.

Just a rough idea that I had to make the Level 9 weapons slightly more special.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: May 29, 2020, 03:50:11 pm »
Mr X, to clarify, is your suggestion specifically to tone down Revivifier's use since with the mana change patch (and Turn Undead, obviously) it's too much better than Lucent Beam as it is currently? Would adjusting the mana cost of Revivifier not be a better way to balance it, with anti-undead weapons instead reducing (halving?) its mana cost? Basically, I'm concerned that tying Turn Undead strictly to those weapons would make it so many players would never realize they could cast Revivifier on enemies at all (also, programming the targeting to have that restriction would totally suck, affecting mana cost shouldn't be as miserable to program in).

Yeah I was thinking of a nerf for Turn Undead. I think the players should expected to read the info in general.
But if it's easier to program that feature with the mp cost then might be worth it, since I think Turn Undead is just much better than Lucent Beam for the Undead enemies, and for less MP cost.
So increasing it's mp might be a good way to balance it out, like 15 or 16 something like that, ans then the Anti-Undead Weapons reducing it's mp cost to like 8, while Lucent Beam to 4? Basically in half.

Actually, for the weapons without status procs, something to make them more worth using would be really nice, so I'm interested in ideas for that. If anti-undead, "holy", weapons, reduce "holy" spell costs for example, other similar synergies between status-proc-less weapons and maybe certain types of spells could be neat

Yeah I think that would be nice, was thinking about that too. And maybe change some entirely like the level 8 Bow and Boomerang, why do you need increased crit rate when you an just spam at that point Herbal Boost for Guaranteed crit rate, unless Herbal Boost gets nerfed by having a crit rate increase by a set amount of time, I see those two weapons as rather redundant after you get Herbal Boost.

Another spell which I would put a nerf is Black Hex or Hellfire. Increase their cost to 16 mp, while the Rising Sun reduces Hellfire's cost similar to Turn Undead, which currently has no function.

For Black Hex it would maybe make sense to be one of those weapons that increase  wisdom/intelligence. Increase cost to 16 mp, while those weapons half that to 8, might be a good nerf to overpowered spells, Turn Undead, Black Hex, Hellfire, Herbal Boost are all too OP imo. I would honestly raise Herbal Boost MP to like 16 as well and then half it with one of those weapons, maybe those weapons effective on Dragons get that feature?.

And have to take into account Equipment too while debating about new weapon features, so I will think of ideas later after more opinions are shared.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: May 29, 2020, 12:00:35 pm »
@Mr X

You just gave me an idea.  If Queue can make Dryad element equipment negate the Burst penalty, then I can make it so that Guardian Ring has 0 DEF, hence making it risky to equip it (it'll still retain its normal M.DEF though).  It kinda fits too, since you can only obtain it in the Tree Palace (well, and Mana Fortress).  A very neat and secret equipment -- most casual players of SoM don't even know the existence of Guardian Ring.

This is also a great idea. It also fits the name Guardian Ring or Resist Ring, Guarding or Resisting the Burst penalty, but having 0 def and extended Magic Charge time, Burst is overall a great spell not just for enemies weak for Dryad but also for those Undead which the Sprite lacks light magic, I always viewed this as the alternative for light spells on Undead.

Now that you brought up this idea, I think I would give Purim also an Equipment that would make Revifier work on Undead. Doesn't necessary need to be an armor or Ring, could be a weapon that works on the Undead with the addition of adding that extra effect on Revifier dealing damage on Undead.
Or have Revifier deal normal damage on Undead, while with a weapon that is effective on undead adding the extra damage boost also on Revifier for the Undead.
It nerfs Revifier a bit, and with the weapon reforging feature you could decide yourself if you wanna have Purim forge back to one of those undead effective weapons with the added damage on Revifier for the endgame or go the more mp costly route with Lucent Beam.

Well, this is the brainstorming stage.  Hence, why we're having discussion.

True. I love when people brainstorm ideas :laugh:

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: May 29, 2020, 09:57:42 am »
The Burst penalty should remain, removing the penalty makes that spell have no restriction, why do that?

Make it resist two elements then. And slightly increse it's magic def.

Also the resist to elements should only be slightly imo.

May 29, 2020, 10:00:01 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Mr X, in describing different possible equipment builds, you basically described my ideal for basically any game with an inventory system: options, all viable, for how you want to specialize your characters. With how few pieces of equipment SoM has though, definitely hard to pull off within its constraints. Not something that's going to be practical without a lot of planning then experimenting

True, this is why I said to not rush with the equipment idea and to carefully plan it out, I think it could turn into something very cool.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: May 28, 2020, 01:07:26 am »
Mr X

I just don't see Acc/Eva making much difference.  I'm just not noticing it much in a gameplay (but it probably has effect in subtle way).

The original SoM is pretty easy.  There's not much I can do to make the "balance" work, equipment or not.  The purpose of my equipment element is to simply use the not-used-mechanic, in a hopefully-better-experience way.  If you want to rebalance, then you can use kethinov/Queue's Harder Monster.

My point is the elemental armors wouldn't be much more useful than they are now with the current setting of the game.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: May 27, 2020, 08:26:18 am »
Mr X

It feels like what you're suggesting is better fit for NG+.  I'm only trying to incorporate elements into equipments, for more "options" during the regular gameplay.  Thanks for your idea though.

I guess Black Hex can be seen as OP, if seen on paper.  But in practice, all it lowers is Strength and Def (Acc and Eva don't matter much).  And all of Black Hex's SEs are nowhere near powerful as humble Balloon or Engulf (stun SEs are overwhelmingly better than [Slow + Confuse + Poison]).  And vanilla Petrify is just ridiculous (thank god Queue for the nerf).

Ok fair. Was thinking that it would also lower magic defense and magic effectiveness like the black curse from sd3, my bad.

Also why don't accuracy and evasion not matter? Is it because of how it's scaled?

May 27, 2020, 08:46:17 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
As for Equipment not sure what else I can think off, the game is already as off balance as it is on the mid/endgame parts of the game, due to the poor scaling rhe original game did.

Even if you give equipment elemental resistance it wont matter much, let's say you give Magical Armor dark element resistance even slightly the dark palace is already an easy enough area, after some farming and you gain a few levels you will see how you breeze through the area. Same for the Gold Tower, only Aegagropilon seems to be threatening enough then the rest of the Grand Palace a breeze with the op equipment available to farm.

Scaling down the equipment means Pure Land gonna be off balance, scale the equipment up and the Grand Palace still remaind a joke. There is really no good way to to think of giving armors elements just for the sake of giving it because of the problems from the original game and the broken enemy scaling.

Hence why I think needs a lot of time to think through all that.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: May 27, 2020, 05:57:45 am »
One way I was thinking is scaling down all enemies and changing the equipment entirely, offering builds for all 3 characters.

Crit Build, Physical Build, Defensive Build, Balanced, Resistance Build, rings that would offer a slight bonus to a spirit in damage, basically almost no equipment being useless (therefore story wise making all these Kingdoms and towns equally important by having all these unique equipment), making use constantly of the buy and sell feature the game offers buying what you currently need and selling what you currently don't need.

Or at least do something like that for the part of the game from Empire and onwards where the balance totally shifts. Scale down enemies and equipment defenses Starting from Southtown but offer bonuses to them. Equipment with a slight resistance to an element but lowers cast time for example etc. I think that would make the gameplay a lot more engaging and think how you wanna build a character, but this will probably take a long time to implement. And have monsters be more agressive with spells and maybe have some use elemental physical attacks so it would be worth using for.

That would be one way.

But yeah I am thinking here in long term, not something to do within a day.

Black Hex was indeed first meant to be an enemy-only spell.  However, I changed my mind, so that players can see the Evil Gate animation (esp the rare Shadow Zero cameo for Lv9).  Indeed, Hellfire has Evil Gate animation, so Black Hex may not be necessary.  It's just that Hellfire is so unbelievably powerful against any bosses (4-hit kill), because there's almost no fire-element bosses (2 in Pure Land, and that's it).  It just made most attack spells unnecessary against bosses (esp with things like Faerie Coconuts available, not to mention Magic Absorb if you enabled Early Luna).  Also, I wanted early access to Dispel Magic, which had a positive side effect of grinding Salamando magic easier (you don't have to search for enemies).

But Hellfire is one helluva unique spell (it even has an awesome name), so I can see why many people would prefer that over Black Hex.  That's probably why Black Hex is OFF by default.

Black Hex is also op tho lowering all stats so it's a toss up between the two. Both are op spells at the hands of the players both would need an equally important nerf, imo. Lowering everything to monsters would mean you can walk through them with no worries.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: May 27, 2020, 02:31:03 am »
I wouldn't rush creating a patch about armors yet. It requires more thinking.

You don't necessary need high defensive armors to get through Pure Land also. I used Lucid Barrier and Balloon spell frequently coupled with Light Saber for that Balloom status to get my way through. Battlesuit, Vestguard, and the armor for the Girl in Golden City got me through this just fine. Heal when in trouble, use Angels Grails which are cheap by that point, restore your mp. In terms of defensw I was fine.

I also had Griffin Helm, Cocratice Cap, Gauntlet, Ninja Glove, and the ring from Pure Land that protects from Engulf and Snowman. The problem eith that set up eas tyat the Grand Palace wasn't doing shit to me then the Pure Land spiked in difficulty, instead I would have raised the difficulty in Grand Palace, only the Robot Boss was dealing actual damage from that area.

I will post more detailed thoughts about that later and debate that.

Also hmsong I thought Black Hex was gonna be an enemy only spell for those that used Evil Gate to distinguish it from the Hellfire?

Queue even if the Hero chargess faster I would still use the Gril she is just more fun overall to use being most balanced among the 3 characters with spells, stats, armors, weapons. But at least Randi would stand out with his fast weapon charging and increasing his charging even more once you have Speed Up at high enough level, so he becomes sort of a tech user for most part and would be distinguished in that aspect from the Girl and Sprite. Sort of like the Shadow version of the 3 characters you fight in Jochs cave, but a poor mans version of them.
While with Level 9 weapons charging even faster.

Personal Projects / Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« on: May 25, 2020, 02:14:53 pm »
Most folks use Randi as the primary attacker.  He is stronger than the other two characters, though that difference may be negligible in the grand scheme of things.  Perhaps it would have better for him to be stronger to a degree that using the other two for physical attacks is a disadvantage?

He has a casting animation which may indicate that there were originally spells for him.   Many intended elements of Secret of Mana were later used in Chrono Trigger and Trials of Mana, and I believe all characters in those games have access to magic or some special tech.

I use Randi till the Girl at least gets 4-5 spirits, then I switch to her quite frequently she's more fun to play overall, while Popoie casts from a corner if possible.
But I have no clue how Randi could be improved on to be less bland. I don't think he needs an attack boost necessary he is strong enough physically imo, even if you decrease the attack power of the other two, he still would be bland to use, other two characters have access to weapons and spells, Randi just weapons.

Yeah in Trials of Mana and Chrono Trigger all characters have access to techs/spells. Always found that the sprites of Randi/Crono and Purim/Marle looked very similar.

Btw your website is awesome, had a fun time reading some content on it, very interesting stuff.

Edit: I guess one way would be to make Randi's charge attacks faster so that might distinguish him more from Purim/Sprite who would have the current charge time attack, while lowering the attack of all 3 characters, so Randi makes the use of charge techs worth it, coupled with Speed up and how it functions in turbo, would work pretty well.

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