Romhacking.net

General Category => News Submissions => Topic started by: RHDNBot on August 24, 2009, 03:36:44 pm

Title: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: RHDNBot on August 24, 2009, 03:36:44 pm
(http://www.romhacking.net/newsimages/newsimage830a.png) (http://www.romhacking.net/newsimages/newsimage830b.png)

Update By: Travis

Policenauts.net, after many years (and months of silence) released their highly anticipated translation of Policenauts, Hideo Kojima's prequel to Snatcher. The translation is very thorough, including background images, cut scenes, etc, and even fixes some bugs with the original release.

Staff note - You can also find the patch archived here (http://www.romhacking.net/trans/1422/) at RHDN.

Relevant Link: (http://policenauts.net/english/)
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: aishsha on August 24, 2009, 04:12:20 pm
Great job, anyway. I'll give it another try after 3 years.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Spinner 8 on August 24, 2009, 05:27:26 pm
THIS IS THE BEST TRANSLATION IN THE ENTIRE WORLD
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Djungelurban on August 24, 2009, 05:47:50 pm
I never thought I'd see the day... The age of miracles is not yet over... Does this mean that Arabian Nights or Tokimeki Memorial is just round the corner?
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Alcahest on August 24, 2009, 06:20:00 pm
Fabulous work, at long last!
*Well* worth the wait. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: BRPXQZME on August 24, 2009, 06:59:04 pm
Tokimeki Memorial
Give me a couple more years, dang it!
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: saito on August 24, 2009, 07:38:49 pm
Time for playing a bit more with my psx, good job  :beer:
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Next Gen Cowboy on August 24, 2009, 09:09:18 pm
THIS IS THE BEST TRANSLATION IN THE ENTIRE WORLD

I have nothing more to add.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Djungelurban on August 24, 2009, 10:20:08 pm
Tokimeki Memorial
Give me a couple more years, dang it!
Actually, I was referencing Necrosaro over at good old J2E and his attempt at translating in early this decade... I remember him saying something to the effect of "if it so takes me 10 years I WILL translate this game"... Coming up on 10 years pretty soon now ehh? You're on the other hand is just a year or two in, that's like nothing in comparison. :)
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Cidolfas on August 24, 2009, 11:21:36 pm
Wow, very cool!
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: BRPXQZME on August 25, 2009, 12:03:36 am
Actually, I was referencing Necrosaro over at good old J2E and his attempt at translating in early this decade... I remember him saying something to the effect of "if it so takes me 10 years I WILL translate this game"... Coming up on 10 years pretty soon now ehh? You're on the other hand is just a year or two in, that's like nothing in comparison. :)
Not that there’s any way you could know, but considering it’s the game I began learning Japanese for, I have been working on it for 10 years ;)

...

:'(
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: StreetTrash on August 25, 2009, 12:10:39 am
It was definitely worth the wait.  I don't think there will ever been another translation project I looked forward to playing as much as this.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: DankPanties on August 25, 2009, 07:18:20 am
Amazing work!  Truly astounding effort and surely to be well received!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: SidGallup on August 25, 2009, 02:39:57 pm
It was definitely worth the wait.  I don't think there will ever been another translation project I looked forward to playing as much as this.

DITTO...
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Pluvius on August 25, 2009, 03:12:41 pm
Bah.  I can see why Something Awful would be proud of their part in this, but it's still no Zybourne Clock.

 :)
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: jonai on August 26, 2009, 08:21:06 am
Fabulous work, at long last!
*Well* worth the wait. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I second that.
Also the comments about the translation and hacking on the dedicated site are very informative and hilarious to read.

great job.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Gemini on August 27, 2009, 05:40:26 am
A friend of mine who knows bits of Japanese was very eager to play this translation, but... He noticed something strange with the translation itself right from the introduction. He noticed strange rewording, missing parts of sentences, and other stuff that makes the text feel a bit weird. I tried the patch myself and noticed exactly the same problems, but at first I was thinking it could be me missing some particular writing style (no native English speaker here, as you can probably notice). So I asked an American friend of mine who's a monster with Japanese and he confirmed the same issues, which confirms my suspect about the script being a little weird.

I don't want this to sound like an insult or anything offensive, but anybody else noticed this, or are my friends and I completely nuts?
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: DarknessSavior on August 27, 2009, 05:41:33 am
I too noticed these things.

~DS
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: BRPXQZME on August 27, 2009, 05:44:37 am
(no native English speaker here, as you can probably notice)
To tell you the truth, if you hadn’t already told me yourself, you’d ’ve had me fooled.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: StreetTrash on August 27, 2009, 06:00:30 am
Maybe once Marc posts this thread it will explain things a bit more.

"I'm currently writing a thread that will answer why there is the amount of swearing in the game that there is, why it has homophobic language, why it has a few internet words, why Jonathan sucks at grammar, among other points of contention."

Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: slowbeef on August 27, 2009, 01:18:18 pm
I'm not really qualified to answer because my Japanese doesn't go beyond very light conversational.

For the record, though, Marc is - in fact - a professional game translator, so it wasn't just someone who is fluent imposing their vision onto the game (if they misunderstood parts or something), it was localized.

As far as I'm aware, the script is indeed accurate and more of a localized translation than a literal one.

Again though, I can't really speak very intelligently to this.

Are there any specific parts you are referring to?


edit:

One thing I might be able to touch upon is the original intro tries to emulate Snatcher in that it starts:  "2010, Beyond Coast is completed, etc.  2013, police officers..."

It's a little ambiguous though, because the story itself is actually being told from the perspective of 2013 - meaning that Beyond Coast was built and the Policenauts were chosen and trained "three years ago".  To that end, I know that's why Marc moved 2013 into the next sentence as opposed to keeping it as a... paragraph header?

This is going off of memory from awhile back in the patch.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: DarknessSavior on August 27, 2009, 07:37:56 pm
Well, I'm by no means a professional translator, as I've only taken a little over a year's worth of college Japanese. However, a transcript of the first large scene in the game was provided to me, and I did my best to translate it.

First, your version:

Quote
The name's Jonathan Ingram.
30 years ago, I was one of Beyond's Policenauts.
Course, it feels practically like yesterday thanks to the EMPS accident.
They're vivid memories.
My wife, friends, career.... All gone.
That accident ruined my life.
Now I'm a private eye-cum-negotiator in this wonderful place we call "Old LA".
I negotiate with child kidnappers and human traffickers,
intermediate ransom exchanges, track down escaped cons....
It's dangerous work.
But for a guy at the end of his rope like me,
scum like that are the only thing putting food on my table.
Guess it beats still being out there.
I've got some time till that client gets here.
This place is full of all sorts of mementos.
There's some newspaper clippings and photos on the walls, and a couple other photos on my desk.
They keep the blanks in my memory filled.

Not bad. Well written, for the most part.

Here's my version. I left the Japanese in there, because as I said, I'm not fluent in Japanese. There's likely to be mistakes. But here it is:

Quote
俺はジョナサンイングラム。
I'm Jonathan Ingram.

30年前、スペ―スコロニ―の#R{BEYOND COAST、ビヨンドコ―スト}#で#{警官、ポリスノ―ツ}#として働いていた。
30 years ago, I worked for the Policenauts of the space colony Beyond Coast.

もっとも、#R{EMPS、エンプス}#事故で宇宙をさまよっていた俺には、わずか数年前の事にしか思えない。
However, thanks to the EMPS incident, it only feels like a few years back that I was roaming about in space.

まだ生々しい記憶だ。
They're still vivid memories.

あの#R{EMPS、エンプス}#事故で過去を失った俺はこの汚れた#{街、ロサンゼルス}#でネゴシエ―タ―まがいの探偵をしている。
Because of the EMPS incident, I was forced to part with my past. Now, in dirty Los Angeles, I do pseudo detective-work as a negotiator.

#{妻、アイツ}#や友人、仕事‥‥‥何もかも30年前に置いてきてしまった。
My wife, friends, job... Just about everything was taken away from me 30 years ago.

そして俺は30年後に置き去りに#―
And then, 30 years later, I'm lost again...

今の俺にとってはこの街が唯一の#{記憶、メモリ―}#だ。
Now, the only memory I've got left is this city.

探偵といえば一昔前までは浮気調査や家出人探しが主だった。
Long ago, the so-called detective work was primarily investigating unfaithful lovers and looking for people who had run away from home.

今の#{オ―ルドLA、OLA}#では#{幼児誘拐、キッドナッピング}#や人身売買の#{交渉、ネゴシエ―ト}##―#W身代金の仲介、脱獄犯の逮捕、保険監査員のサポ―トなど‥‥‥やばい依頼ばかりだ。
Now, in Old LA (OLA), I get nothing but dangerous work: kidnappings, negotiating with slave traders, mediating ransom deals, capturing criminals who've escaped from jail, supporting insurance claimsmen and the like.

だが‥‥‥俺みたいな過去をなくした探偵にはそんな世の中の膿がなければ飯も食ってけない。
Alas...for a guy like me who has lost his past, a world without scum means that I can't put food on the table.

せいぜい、腹が一杯になるまでがんばるしかないか‥‥‥
At least it helps keep my stomach full, huh...?

‥‥‥さて、#{依頼人、クライアント}#が来るまで何をしようか?
...Well, what'll I do until the client gets here?

この部屋には、俺の#{過去、メモリ―}#を示すものがたくさんある#―
There's alot of things that bring back old memories in this room.

前方の壁には、新聞の#{切り抜き、スクラップ}#や写真が#―
On the front wall, there's scraps from the newspaper and photographs.

Upon finishing the translation, it seems like many things are missing (in fact, it seems like entire lines were skipped). Also, it seems like many sentences were combined, when in the original, they were not.

I apologize if this seems at all rude of me. I don't mean to cause an offense, I just noticed a bunch of things were missing.

~DS
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: scarboy on August 27, 2009, 08:07:22 pm
Maybe I'm a little biased because I'm on the team (I haven't even played Policenauts yet, I only did programming work on it), but I think Marc's translation reads a lot better than the one you posted. Your translation might be ok as a direct translation, but in real life I don't think I know anyone who speaks like that. A Policenaut who was frozen for years is not going to start a sentence with Alas... or be so verbose, especially when he's talking to himself.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: slowbeef on August 27, 2009, 08:42:03 pm
I don't really take offense to it.  (The translation wasn't my deal anyway!)

I hope this doesn't come off defensive, but I think the hack reads more like a localization of a released game than a literal translation and I think that's what we were going for.  Again, our translator does this for a living and has actually worked with/is friendly with Jeremy Blaustein - the guy who localized Snatcher and Metal Gear Solid.  (Actually, Blaustein was going to be one of our beta testers, but it fell through at the last minute.)

I guess where I'm coming from is when you say "lines are missing", I want to make it clear that we didn't gloss over things because we couldn't translate them, or that we purposefully shortened them due to technical limitations - it's not the case either way.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: zera9924 on August 27, 2009, 09:07:40 pm
Quote
... but I think the hack reads more like a localization of a released game than a literal translation and I think that's what we were going for.

I'm not sure I understand. Were you aiming for a nostalgic tone with the translation?

This is just constructive criticism, but judging from what sniplets of the script I've seen, it looks really unprofessional. Are you saying this is done on purpose? I guess I could understand that kind of approach with a really retro game -- such as with an NES translation -- but PSX?
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Carnivol on August 27, 2009, 09:16:14 pm
Quote
... but I think the hack reads more like a localization of a released game than a literal translation and I think that's what we were going for.

I'm not sure I understand. Were you aiming for a nostalgic tone with the translation?

This is just constructive criticism, but judging from what sniplets of the script I've seen, it looks really unprofessional. Are you saying this is done on purpose? I guess I could understand that kind of approach with a really retro game -- such as with an NES translation -- but PSX?

There's a bit of a problem with DarknessSavior's literal and "complete" translation, and that is the fact that the scene in question here is an FMV sequence, which means that you have heavy restrictions as far as the amount of translated information you can provide goes.

Anyone who's worked with professional subtitling knows that there are times when you have to cut things a bit short (sometimes incredibly short, even), rephrase stuff a bit and such. This for the sake of making things fit properly within the time given, and that without creating huge ass blocks of text on the screen (as some might know, you really shouldn't want to "fill" the entire screen with text from one side to the other, and you should never exceed more than two lines of text on-screen at the same time when doing subtitles like this...) When I've worked on some titles, there have been a lot of problems with both studios and QA teams not understanding the basic concepts of subtitling and the reasons for things like that (Probably a mixture of cultural "dub-country"-backgrounds and general lack of care when it comes to making something look presentable and professional)


(Speaking of care and presentable, bla bla bla stuff)
slowbeef, dunno if you guys are looking for much feedback, but there are some tiny things I noted down while playing through the prologue of the game:

1. Subtitle timing for NIS/FMVs. I dunno if you guys have had much control of the timing (or if you're limited to the original timing of the Japanese subtitles), but I guess some re-timing of a good few of them could be needed (if possible). Was able to read everything as it went by, but there were times when it was more of a subconscious absorbation going on than me actually reading the entire text.


2. System text could possibly need some touches (you know, boring saving/loading stuff, button references, error messages, etc...). However, this might just be me... I just tend to find myself slightly bothered by stuff that doesn't somehow comply (or stay consistent) with some sort of guideline document and/or other titles by the same company. I don't have any PS1 games fresh in mind, but the PS2's glossaries are still fresh in mind (and mostly applicable to PS1 games, I suppose)


3. Menu options. I dunno if it'd be an easy hack or not, but wouldn't it be a good idea to just remove the options for enabling/disabling subtitles? (And evt. force them to constantly stay on, in case someone loads an old save where these options are saved... assuming they are.) Keeping the options might have been good for testing (incase there are corrupted subtitle strings or something), but I guess it's kinda pointless to keep it in final.


Anyway, in general, I'm impressed by the work the entire team's done on it. It looks good, feels good, and smells good! I did spot some stuff that I think could've been worded better, and I think I might've even spotted a couple of typos (even of the "missing word" kind, which are the most evil ones! 'Cause the spellcheckers wont pick those up), nothing big, though. But it's easy to get annoyed by small things.  I would've had screenshots of those if it weren't for me playing on a PS1.

Also, I saw some people elsewhere complain about a few random lines, like some dialog being more or less "internet talk" (such as... "quoted for truth", I believe), which I don't really see the problem with, and some about just general elements in the original game itself.... A certain photo and "looking like fag" (or something along those lines) comes to mind, which I guess could've used some different wording (I'd probably build it around "looking a bit queer" or "kinda gay". I guess fag sounds offensive somehow... but then again, I tend to have to worry a bit too much about ratings whenever I write/edit/proofread something in my native tongue :laugh:)


Pardon this tiny wall of text. Seems like I can't do short posts when I finally decide to post something.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: slowbeef on August 27, 2009, 09:19:51 pm
I'm not sure I understand. Were you aiming for a nostalgic tone with the translation?

This is just constructive criticism, but judging from what sniplets of the script I've seen, it looks really unprofessional. Are you saying this is done on purpose? I guess I could understand that kind of approach with a really retro game -- such as with an NES translation -- but PSX?

No, and I don't know what you mean by "nostalgic" tone.

Maybe you should give it a whirl yourself?  Seriously, though, "unprofessional" is definitely the last thing I'd call it - I don't know what snippets you saw or what context they were in.  Maybe you'll still feel the same way afterwards, who knows.

If you didn't enjoy the game, I'm sorry about that.  Again, there were no functional causes for any discrepancies you might find.

Quote from: Carnivol
1. Subtitle timing for NIS/FMVs. I dunno if you guys have had much control of the timing (or if you're limited to the original timing of the Japanese subtitles), but I guess some re-timing of a good few of them could be needed (if possible). Was able to read everything as it went by, but there were times when it was more of a subconscious absorbation going on than me actually reading the entire text.

2. System text could possibly need some touches (you know, boring saving/loading stuff, button references, error messages, etc...). However, this might just be me... I just tend to find myself slightly bothered by stuff that doesn't somehow comply (or stay consistent) with some sort of guideline document and/or other titles by the same company. I don't have any PS1 games fresh in mind, but the PS2's glossaries are still fresh in mind (and mostly applicable to PS1 games, I suppose)

3. Menu options. I dunno if it'd be an easy hack or not, but wouldn't it be a good idea to just remove the options for enabling/disabling subtitles? (And evt. force them to constantly stay on, in case someone loads an old save where these options are saved... assuming they are.) Keeping the options might have been good for testing (incase there are corrupted subtitle strings or something), but I guess it's kinda pointless to keep it in final.

These are all pretty good points.  We actually did remove some menu options (like "Ruby - On/Off" since that makes no sense without Japanese"), but yeah, it may have been wise to remove Subtitles as well.

The timing was under our control to some extent, depending on the scenes.  Fun aside: I had to lengthen the timing in the Motorcycle scene in Act 2 because they are really illegibly fast in the original.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Gemini on August 27, 2009, 09:32:09 pm
Maybe you should give it a whirl yourself?
When that friend of mine told me about the weird stuff in the translation, I actually decided to test it for myself. The translation reads fine most of the time, but there are sentences that feel just wrong, which is noticeable especially when voice actors are actually speaking. I must say, I was shocked when I saw Karen calling Jonathan an asshole even if the original line said "Go away!". Some things feel just too exaggerated and not very professional in my opinion.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: DarknessSavior on August 27, 2009, 09:44:51 pm
Also, when dealing with subtitled videos, it's very easy to tell when you skip content. If you have a guy speaking for 45 seconds and all you get out of it is a sentence, there's a problem. >_>

~DS
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Carnivol on August 27, 2009, 09:53:17 pm
Also, when dealing with subtitled videos, it's very easy to tell when you skip content. If you have a guy speaking for 45 seconds and all you get out of it is a sentence, there's a problem. >_>

~DS

Indeed, but fortunately this isn't the case with the Policenauts prologue chapter intro.

But if a guy speaks "non-stop" for 10 seconds, you can't really squeeze in more than 6 lines of text (which is where you're starting to push the line for such a short timeframe), where each line is maybe 45 characters at best, and since you're dealing with two different languages... space issues may become even worse (I dunno what the average length growth is for Japanese -> English, but with various European languages, you generally estimate a "potential/variable" growth of up to about 30-50% in length)

These are all pretty good points.  We actually did remove some menu options (like "Ruby - On/Off" since that makes no sense without Japanese"), but yeah, it may have been wise to remove Subtitles as well.

The timing was under our control to some extent, depending on the scenes.  Fun aside: I had to lengthen the timing in the Motorcycle scene in Act 2 because they are really illegibly fast in the original.

Aah. I see. Dunno if you guys are planning on evt. doing an updated (v1.1?) release or do something else (Private Collection, Saturn version, other platforms and/or games), but I'm at least pretty confident in that whatever evt. any of you do next, the final product will be worth a look.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: BRPXQZME on August 27, 2009, 10:02:50 pm
average length growth is for Japanese -> English
Ridiculous is what it is. It does depend on how tersely you decide to translate.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: slowbeef on August 27, 2009, 10:06:41 pm
Some things feel just too exaggerated and not very professional in my opinion.

To be honest, I'm not fluent enough in Japanese to speak very intelligently on this.  Again, all I can say for sure is that the script is not the way it is because of any technical limitations.  I passed along the thread to the translator, so you're all being heard on this.

What can you do?  My point was just if you say "I saw an excerpt or two, and it looked rather unprofessional," my response is "Well, try it out to see the whole thing in context, because maybe an excerpt doesn't come across correctly by itself."

If you play it and you still feel that way, well, thanks for at least giving it a shot before passing judgment.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: theteapirate on August 27, 2009, 10:38:35 pm
The whole translation itself felt on the whole very professional and well thought out, in my opinion. Certainly the best I've seen in a fan localization. I could definitely notice some stylistic references to Jeremy Blaustein's localization of Snatcher, so the fact that he and Marc are/have been colleagues in the past makes sense. I'd even go so far as to say that if one were to read the two sequentially, I think you'd be hard-pressed to tell that they weren't adapted by the same person, just with different standards as to what needed to be censored. Every rewrite applied to the script, I felt, enhanced the experience and made it more relatable to its target audience -- clearly not the person trying to apply rudimentary Japanese knowledge to produce a dry, boring translation in their head so they can complain about how the translator mistranslated the Japanese kuso as "damn" instead of "shit" in this week's Naruto -- but the fan looking for an experience that made him love the stylistic-prequel Snatcher as much as they did.

People, please realize, coming from someone who has been doing this for years on end on a hobby-related basis: while there are schools of translation that tend to lean more toward the literal as opposed to maybe taking as much liberty as Marc's did, there is more to translation between languages as different than feeding things through EDICT and parsing grammar differences within your head.

Perhaps some of you aren't really cognizant of this, either, but the writing for most Japanese games (especially RPGs) and anime is actually fairly poor. Very seldom do you get any sort of true characterization besides the eternally-recycled stereotypical speech patterns that most translators just tend to drop/ignore, or, God forbid, leave as-is. (I've seen modern fansubs go as far as to put things like "blah blah blah~jya" or "blah blah~de arimasu"... truly a horror to witness for anyone striving for readable prose.) In English, you're forced to have to think past these often untranslatable tropes if you want to create a memorable piece of literature, and the same goes with making a memorable localization. In comparison to other works, anyway, Kojima's writing actually lends itself well to English localization, as it draws so much influence from American movies that the translator has an easily-available source to draw some stylistic inspiration from.

</frustratedwannabeprofessionaltranslatorrant>

So, in conclusion, anyone who puts Marc's work down on this is a poopiehead.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: zera9924 on August 27, 2009, 11:00:27 pm
Quote
So, in conclusion, anyone who puts Marc's work down on this is a poopiehead.

No one is putting his work down. Whatever happened to constructive criticism? I must point out that there are a lot of snide comments in your post directed at us, and potentially anyone else who would raise legitimate concerns with this translation. Calling something unprofessional is not necessarily done with malicious intent just because it's a negative implication.

On another note, it's really strange that there's so much "industry" posturing going on in this discussion. I don't know the story behind this, but appealing to one's credentials does not validate any opinions or standards one might hold. The nature of the translation method is not being debated, (in fact, I was simply criticizing the bad grammar and awkward syntax) but in releasing such work to the public, you're opening yourself to scrutiny. When the public doesn't approve, are you going to rally your co-workers into a lynch-mob against anyone who disagrees with you? Good luck with marketing if that's your attitude. :laugh:
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Kajitani-Eizan on August 27, 2009, 11:04:38 pm
This is just constructive criticism, but judging from what sniplets of the script I've seen, it looks really unprofessional. Are you saying this is done on purpose? I guess I could understand that kind of approach with a really retro game -- such as with an NES translation -- but PSX?

i have basically the opposite view. from what snippets i've seen, it looks absolutely brilliant, and a good translation of the original script. that opening script that DS posted and the "i look like a fag" screen included. obviously it is in a localized style, so if you don't like that sort of thing, i suppose it's unfortunate for you. but i am just not seeing how this is remotely "unprofessional". are there many grammar mistakes that are obviously mistakes and not stylistic choices on the part of the translator/editor?

Perhaps some of you aren't really cognizant of this, either, but the writing for most Japanese games (especially RPGs) and anime is actually fairly poor.

THIS. i dunno how much this applies to this game, though. the japanese opening script DS posted seems pretty decent, at least.

Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Gemini on August 27, 2009, 11:12:37 pm
My point was just if you say "I saw an excerpt or two, and it looked rather unprofessional,"
And my point is that I noticed that pretty much every time the characters speak and the dialogue seems somewhat over-edited or uses stuff completely uncalled for (again, Karen saying "You asshole!" feels just wrong, and there are other examples like that). It's not just the introduction, it's been 1,5 chapters like that. I think I see what Marc was trying to do with the script, but to be completely honest, over-editing is never a good solution especially when you start dropping errors or making up stuff (that is what usually happens with many official translations). This usually leads to the translator trying to make the script feel "cool", which isn't really what a translation is supposed to do. There's always a line to draw between accuracy and style.

Anyway, I'm at Ed's place now, tasting Anna's (I thought her name was Ana?) "delicious" cuisine.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Kajitani-Eizan on August 27, 2009, 11:56:53 pm
This usually leads to the translator trying to make the script feel "cool", which isn't really what a translation is supposed to do.

are you sure? there's an inherent assumption you have to make about the tone the original writer was going for. it seems a generally safe assumption for most such cases that the writer was going for a somewhat "cool" script that reads well. i dunno how successful they are at that, but you would think that's the intention. what else would the intention be? that they intended for the script to be dry and crappy? i mean, if upon reading it you come to the conclusion that the script is intentionally dry to produce a specific effect, that's one thing, but...

Quote
There's always a line to draw between accuracy and style.

and that line is not as euclidean as you seem to think. a line can be translated inaccurately if it isn't translated with the correct style, even if the words have the same technical meaning. i don't claim to have knowledge of the specific in-game situation referred to, but depending on the circumstances, translating "go away!" as "you asshole!" could be more accurate than translating it as "go away!". again, i am not familiar with this particular line in-game, and i'm not necessarily supporting this particular choice of words. i'm just saying it isn't outside the realm of possibility that it is in fact a good translation--and possibly in fact better than if they had just gone with "go away!" or somesuch.

i think where i'm going with these two quote/reply blocks is that you also have to look at the script as a whole, not just at individual lines. you have to look at the entire spectrum of character dialogue, not just whether kuso was translated as damn or shit, to borrow an admittedly rather demeaning illustrative example from theteapirate :P  obviously i don't mean that that's what you're doing, but sometimes one can get bogged down in the small details without seeing the big picture, or how the big picture actually synergizes with and improves those small details.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Spinner 8 on August 27, 2009, 11:59:12 pm
The whole translation itself felt on the whole very professional and well thought out, in my opinion. Certainly the best I've seen in a fan localization. I could definitely notice some stylistic references to Jeremy Blaustein's localization of Snatcher, so the fact that he and Marc are/have been colleagues in the past makes sense.

Not to mention the subtle (and not-subtle) references to Metal Gear Solid, another of Blaustein's localizations. When Jonathan exclaims "A surveillance camera?" the first time he sees one, man that's gotta be a reference. :)

I'm not much for the tired literal-vs-localized argument that's starting to show up here (in before lock btw), but I just wanted to chime in and say that this is definitely one of the best fan-translated scripts I've ever read. Maybe the best. And man I've read a lot of fan-translated scripts.

Everything, on the hacking and scripting side both, was done so damn well! I hope everyone involved is immensely proud of the work they've done, as they should be.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Gemini on August 28, 2009, 12:20:04 am
are you sure? there's an inherent assumption you have to make about the tone the original writer was going for. it seems a generally safe assumption for most such cases that the writer was going for a somewhat "cool" script that reads well.
Well, you can make a script that sounds very good and still avoid the "coolness" as much as possible. Tom's (aka shivalva) definitively a master at that. ;D The translation he did on Innocent Sin is probably one of the most accurate and well written I've ever seen, if not really the best.

Quote
a line can be translated inaccurately if it isn't translated with the correct style, even if the words have the same technical meaning.
If we refer to the asshole line, to me it doesn't seem like the context where it's located really justifies it, nor does the "broken Engrish" factor that would make you want to edit/reword the sentence to be less broken and appear more like they're talking in English for real. It's really one of those lines that make you say "WTF just happened!?". I'm generally ok with liberties here and there, but getting carried away feels... well, not very ethical? :-\
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Kajitani-Eizan on August 28, 2009, 12:59:48 am
Innocent Sin

i think this might make for a good example... something i recall from when it was released was that one character had the dubious title of Underpants Gang Leader. yep, from the FAQ:

Quote
[Underpants Gang Leader...? Isn't it Captain Pants?]

Captain? Of what, a football team? Or a ship? Eikichi's the leader of a gang... The delinquent students of Kasugayama High... "Banchō" doesn't mean "captain" in any sense of the word. He's a gang leader. He became the leader of his gang because he'd pull down people's pants and humiliate them by showing them in their underwear... The Japanese word "pantsu" is used to describe underwear (even though it sounds more like the English word "pants"). That's why I chose "Underpants." It seems silly, and that's what it was intended to be. Lisa was trying to make fun of him. Some of the lines in the game (specifically in the Zodiac) wouldn't make sense if this term hadn't been used.

so apparently, it was Captain Pants in the localization. i would say this was obviously a bit of a flub -- but not for the Captain part. the "Pants" part obviously should have been "Underpants", or "Underwear", or "Boxers", or something. so why couldn't he have been Captain Underpants, then? Underpants Gang Leader sounds really, really stilted. did the japanese sound stilted? or was it going for a smoother feel to the title? depending on how it's used in the story, various permutations like "leader of the Underpants Gang", or "Captain Underpants", or even something crazy that's further localized like "Underpantsers' Boss/Underpantsers' Leader" (basically calling the Underpants Gang the Underpantsers (Underpanzers?), or something) would have been far less weird sounding. even "Underpants Gang's leader" works better overall, i'd say.

i'm not sure i'm seeing the argument that "captain" is a mistranslation of "banchou". there aren't really many better words in english to convey that idea (maybe Boss). but using a stilted combination of words to try to improve technical accuracy at the cost of style and quite possibly stylistic accuracy isn't necessarily the best answer.

(i mean no offense to Tom; from what i recall seeing, i pretty much liked what i saw of his work. this particular thing just stuck out.)
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Gemini on August 28, 2009, 02:18:08 am
I'm not really sure why we should add this offtopic, but I promise I'll keep it as short as possible.

so apparently, it was Captain Pants in the localization.
In this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1z6rp2e-_M) flashback that is translated as Pants Leader and Mr. Pervert. That's from the official translation of Eternal Punishment (same (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oejN1dtUzjw) scene from Innocent Sin). I have no clue where Captain Pants comes from, but I believe it was mentioned by some random douche on youtube comments or something when I posted a preview footage of the translation.

Quote
i'm not sure i'm seeing the argument that "captain" is a mistranslation of "banchou". there aren't really many better words in english to convey that idea (maybe Boss). but using a stilted combination of words to try to improve technical accuracy at the cost of style and quite possibly stylistic accuracy isn't necessarily the best answer.
It's supposed to sound stilted, like the K'ass-u-gay-ama joke. Also, according to Genius:
ばんちょう [番長]

the leader of a group of juvenile delinquents in school
bully
【C】(学校の)がき大将.

And considering he's just a bully at Kasu High, Captain wouldn't have really worked at all.
</offtopic>
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Kajitani-Eizan on August 28, 2009, 03:50:26 am
in an effort to be brief...

- ah, well then Pants Leader is a definite flub.
- you're not really making sense. "kasukou" (滓高 i assume) isn't "supposed to sound stilted", as far as i can tell. are you sure U.G.L. is "supposed" to be stilted in japanese? for example, if it's "pantsu banchou", that isn't stilted.
- you're missing the point by posting a bunch of definitions. the point is that "gang leader" used in that way is very awkward (doubly so now that i've seen the context).
- i don't understand how "captain" wouldn't have worked at all. it fits; see def. 1 @ dictionary.com. if the issue is that it's not precise enough in meaning (since it doesn't indicate that it's a leader of a gang) then what you're telling me is that you'd rather introduce awkwardness not intended to be there in the original version and therefore stylistic inaccuracy rather than a bit of technical inaccuracy.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Gemini on August 28, 2009, 04:11:13 am
I didn't make the glossary for dialogues, except for a very few terms (most menu related). I'll refrain from posting more about Persona as Tom is the only who can actually answer you in detail. He's kinda AWOL for the moment, so we should probably go back to Porisunottsu now.

PS: "Kasukō" (written as カス校 in game)  is a pun based on kuzu (屑).
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: kingofcrusher on August 28, 2009, 04:24:00 am
I haven't played it yet, but that english translation of the intro is about 1 billion times better than the Japanese original someone posted. One thing I hate about Japanese is how they repeat the same info 40 times per paragraph and take 15 sentences to say something that could be summed up in 3 or 4, but then leave out important info because it's implied. It's probably just a problem unique to games and anime since they're so badly written, but god is it annoying.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: KaioShin on August 28, 2009, 05:30:13 am
-- clearly not the person trying to apply rudimentary Japanese knowledge to produce a dry, boring translation in their head so they can complain about how the translator mistranslated the Japanese kuso as "damn" instead of "shit" in this week's Naruto --

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: realworksuks on August 28, 2009, 10:18:10 pm
This is a very big deal..  awesome!
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: theteapirate on August 28, 2009, 11:48:08 pm
No one is putting his work down. Whatever happened to constructive criticism? I must point out that there are a lot of snide comments in your post directed at us, and potentially anyone else who would raise legitimate concerns with this translation. Calling something unprofessional is not necessarily done with malicious intent just because it's a negative implication.

My "snide comments" were directed towards those who make assumptions based on "a feeling" they get from their years of experience with watching fansubbed anime and their experience in Japanese 101 that they got a C in because  the teacher just didn't get why ending every sentence with "ze" makes sense. I mean, they do it in Bleach all the time! There's a reason why sasukeluvahxoxox69 from <insert favorite fansub group here> doesn't get hired to translate video games even though she can crap out a script every week in 2 hours after the show airs -- because her work is not only elitist in nature but lacks an understanding of what translation is all about -- giving the audience in the translated language as close of an experience as possible to what the audience in the intended language received, an ideal/goal that I don't believe can truly be effectively argued against. Certain sacrifices obviously have to be made from a complete word-by-word, grammar-point-by-grammar-point translation in order to achieve this.

Not to pick on a young student of the language, as many of us thought like this at one point in time (and I have no doubt that he will continue to improve if he's as good as he is with having only taken a year of Japanese), but IMHO, anyone who thinks DarknessSavior's translation of that snippet from the intro is giving the reader a more authentic experience is fundamentally mistaken. Knowing how to localize effectively and efficiently is a process that takes a lot of time, knowledge, and experience.

Additionally, since the example of the whole "you asshole!" thing was brought up, if you're a student of the Japanese language and ever have the chance to do so, I suggest you watch how the Japanese translate a lot of English phrases like that from Hollywood movies into their own language -- it's actually very enlightening and interesting to see. "Curse words" in English often end up sounding a bit more innocent by the choices of the translators in Japanese, since the standards for "profanity" are completely different between the two languages. If Marc's in the process of writing up a post explaining the choices he made for this localization, though, as someone said earlier in the thread, I won't bother trying to explain things further for him.

And since you brought it up, where I come from, constructive criticism means giving a bit of support with your argument rather than just going "this is unprofessional" without any evidence. But enough talk, have at you! ;)

PS: "Kasukō" (written as カス校 in game)  is a pun based on kuzu (屑).

Not to further derail the topic, but just for the sake of understanding, as far as I know, 屑 and カス are not related, the words just have similar meanings. This is just a guess, but if you're basing that off of a glossary of terminology, I think you might have misread it or whoever wrote it worded that point poorly. It's a pun based off when abbreviating the name of the high school in normal Japanese fashion of doing so, you end up with カス高, which if interpreted literally into English would turn out to be something to the effect of "Scum High," except a bit more derogatory and crude, hence the translator's choice of "K'ass-u-gay-ama," which actually works pretty well.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Lilinda on August 28, 2009, 11:51:04 pm
teapirate, back down on the insults towards Gemini and DarknessSavior. Now.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Gemini on August 28, 2009, 11:57:03 pm
Not to further derail the topic, but just for the sake of understanding, as far as I know, 屑 and カス are not related, the words just have similar meanings.
There is one Sevens student explaining the joke telling you that is meant to be a pun with kuzu. Same happens with Hanakōji becoming Hanaji (nosebleed, which I actually wanted to be Bleedy Mari at first).
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: snark on August 29, 2009, 12:01:17 am
Teacup party said:

...giving the audience in the translated language as close of an experience as possible to what the audience in the intended language received, an ideal/goal that I don't believe can truly be effectively argued against. Certain sacrifices obviously have to be made from a complete word-by-word, grammar-point-by-grammar-point translation in order to achieve this...."

Nein!!!  *bangs gavel

This is oft' argued here.

Example:

a. Argument 1 = Translation must be translated to show intent of original authors, heretofore known as audience A.

b. Argument 2 =  Translations must be localized for enjoyment of new audience, heretofore
known as audience B.

Argument and blather ensues.
In the words of R. Hillel
...All else is commentary! >:D
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: theteapirate on August 29, 2009, 12:18:49 am
Erm, I sincerely apologize if anything I said came off as insulting to any particular person, especially Gemini and DS, as that was certainly not my intention (my target of satire was Mr. Generic Rabid Animu Fan, not any particular board member); as I said in my post, I only have no respect for those who are giving unfounded opinions, and both of them had legitimate concerns and at the very least offered an alternative, even if I may personally think that another choice is better. Anyway, I'm jumping ship on this topic after this post, as I've pretty much exhausted what I want to say.

Not to further derail the topic, but just for the sake of understanding, as far as I know, 屑 and カス are not related, the words just have similar meanings.
There is one Sevens student explaining the joke telling you that is meant to be a pun with kuzu. Same happens with Hanakōji becoming Hanaji (nosebleed, which I actually wanted to be Bleedy Mari at first).

Hmm, interesting. I can see if the student's explaining that it's supposed to be カス like 屑みたいな意味で, but I've tried Googling a bit around the subject and can't really dig up anything to support an actual link between the words. :/ If you could find that line in the original Japanese, it'd satisfy my curiosity on the subject. :thumbsup:

a. Argument 1 = Translation must be translated to show intent of original authors, heretofore known as audience A.

b. Argument 2 =  Translations must be localized for enjoyment of new audience, heretofore
known as audience B.

It's of my opinion that there's really not much of a difference between Arguments 1 and 2 besides semantics. One could easily say that to express the original intent of the author(s), one must localize it so the audience can enjoy it. But it's all in the interpretation, I suppose!
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: zera9924 on August 29, 2009, 12:23:43 am
Quote
what translation is all about -- giving the audience in the translated language as close of an experience as possible to what the audience in the intended language received, an ideal/goal that I don't believe can truly be effectively argued against. Certain sacrifices obviously have to be made from a complete word-by-word, grammar-point-by-grammar-point translation in order to achieve this.

You just had to go and open Pandora's Box, didn't you? Well, I suppose another "literal versus edited" armageddon is way overdue, anyway.

I really just see it as a gray area. I believe there are situations where compromises and rewording would need to be made, but this is proportional to the skill of the translator(s). Basically, if you need to do a lot of rewording, then something is wrong. Given, some scripts just sound crappy in English, but that's another issue.

I don't see how this applies to the matter of Policenauts, either way. Way too much content was changed without sufficient reasoning, and it seems like you're trying to justify a personal bias instead of conceding that a more literal approach would have been perfectly fine in this case. Not that I care. I have no interest in the series. I guess I see no further point in offering or debating my opinions or criticisms in the matter of the translation, if the authors are clearly grounded in the decisions they've made regardless. Frankly, it's their prerogative.

Quote
And since you brought it up, where I come from, constructive criticism means giving a bit of support with your argument rather than just going "this is unprofessional" without any evidence. But enough talk, have at you!

Where I come from, constructive criticism is as dry and brazen as it comes. Often times, a slap in the face was considered among the more polite gestures we used; but I digress... :P
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Kajitani-Eizan on August 29, 2009, 04:13:55 am
There is one Sevens student explaining the joke telling you that is meant to be a pun with kuzu.

seriously? that's pretty odd, considering that a pun with kasu makes tons more sense. i had come to the same conclusion as teapirate, that it would be 滓高/カス高. you're saying it is actually カス校, with the kasu being based on 屑, not 滓, though... i mean, you sure?

a. Argument 1 = Translation must be translated to show intent of original authors, heretofore known as audience A.

b. Argument 2 =  Translations must be localized for enjoyment of new audience, heretofore
known as audience B.

what is the difference? you can't effectively show the intent of the authors unless it is localized so the new audience can understand the intent. you can't somehow translate into english while still leaving things as japanese as possible and have the new audience understand the work just as well as the original audience understood the original work. unless your new audience speaks only english while still trying to be as japanese as possible.

so as i see it, broadly speaking, you're either a) localizing, b) not effectively conveying information to your target audience, or c) targeting weeaboos. obviously there are exceptions and whatnot, but they are exceptions and not the norm, imo.

I believe there are situations where compromises and rewording would need to be made, but this is proportional to the skill of the translator(s). Basically, if you need to do a lot of rewording, then something is wrong.

i just totally disagree with this. i just can't see how a more skilled or experienced translator could somehow magically squeeze more japaneseness out of a translation and have to use less rewording to deliver the appropriate experience. obviously, this would be true to an extent, but any guy with a few years' experience can do it. where skill lies is actually editing the translation to deliver the experience that ought to be delivered, or translating it like that in the first place.

Quote
I don't see how this applies to the matter of Policenauts, either way. Way too much content was changed without sufficient reasoning, and it seems like you're trying to justify a personal bias instead of conceding that a more literal approach would have been perfectly fine in this case.

not that i've played it, but going off of the opening that DS posted... that is in no way unjustified. a more literal approach would have sucked ass. seriously, just read DS's translation of it. i'm not knocking his translation at all... it seems pretty decent. however, it isn't the sort of text that should be put into a game. i don't just mean that it should be polished a tiny bit to make sure the grammar and punctuation are fine, and then shoved in there. i mean that the text shouldn't read like ass. and to make it not read like ass, some things will need to be shifted around. it's called editing... editors do it to improve crappy english scripts. why wouldn't you do it to improve english scripts that are crappy because they were translated from another language entirely?

if your argument is that it OUGHT to read like ass, because "the japanese version was like that", please show me quotes from japanese people that say "man this game reads like ass. another fine work from kojima-sensei!" (or if you don't feel like trawling for quotes, just think about how silly that is for a moment.) now ask yourself this: which is truly a greater departure from the japanese version, a few lines being shifted around, or the game suddenly reading like ass? this is a question that asks you to look further than the superficial interpretation of how close a translation is to the source language.

if your argument is that if you just fix up DS's translation a tiny bit, it will sound like perfectly good english, and therefore there's no need to change the text further, then there's not much more we can discuss. i would have to vehemently disagree and would point you towards any other accepted forms of writing, such as novels, magazines, newspapers, academic papers, articles, textbooks, essays, etc. etc. etc. to get a better feel for what constitutes well-written english.

here is a major sticking point -- if you have a decently good grasp on what constitutes well-written english, then fine. but if you don't, how are you to judge if a script is "good enough" to not need further editing? this is in fact something that requires a FAR GREATER grasp of the english language as compared to the grasp of the japanese language required to translate it. (i'm not saying you don't have such command; i'm just making a general observation and providing a possible explanation for why the more extreme purist weeaboo types might think they way they do.)
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Next Gen Cowboy on August 29, 2009, 06:39:26 am

You just had to go and open Pandora's Box, didn't you? Well, I suppose another "literal versus edited" armageddon is way overdue, anyway.

No it's not! We do this every week here, and we rehash the same points over and over, and we all know where each person stands. If you don't; look around it's easy enough to find.

If you all want to discuss this it is fine, but we are going to do it in a civilized manner, purely out of respect (and because we can). Keep it clean, keep it factual; if you are going to give opinions than support them.

The only thing I will add is something that bears repeating "the best thing you can do to get the proper conext of the translation is to play it"
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: BRPXQZME on August 29, 2009, 05:55:08 pm
I come from the more literal school of thought, but I think this translation is just dandy the way it is. :thumbsup:

If you’ve got some notes I could use for TokiMemo PSX, I’d be much obliged.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Viewer on August 30, 2009, 12:45:18 am
During that final bit at the end, I was expecting to read "Space is disease and danger wrapped in darkness and silence!" Or just replace the whole of that rant with it - it sums up the game pretty well.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Suzaku on August 30, 2009, 04:51:47 am
I've said it before, and it seems appropriate to repeat it now....

The art (yes ART!) of translation is all about translating what's being said, not what's being said. In other words, if you look at a string of words and grammar and translate each individual thing, you will fail. Miserably. When translating, there are two things that NEED to be kept in mind: the translation needs to convey all the information the original does, and the translation needs to speak with the same characterization as the original.

As an example, when translating dialogue you look at what the sentence is saying, not just at what the words are saying. Once you know what the point of that line of dialogue is--what information is being literally conveyed, you then need to look at how it's being said. This is especially important in games without spoken dialogue, as the player can't try to get emotion or characterization from the vocals (as there aren't any).

How does all this apply to Policenauts? Take the snipped DS posted. I would likely have erred on the side of including some of the stuff that was snipped. It's a personal preference, and one that every translator must figure out for themselves. Some prefer the more heavily localized route, others do not. That said, however, Marc absolutely NAILED the tone of the dialogue. Reading the text gives a ton of insight into the character just by speech pattern and word choice. I do not think it could have been done better in that regard. Seriously. Well done!

Something else to keep in mind is that one cannot judge a game translation solely on the video subtitles. I believe it was mentioned before, but there are certain constraints one is under when subtitling that don't really exist when all one has to worry about are boxes of text.

Anyway, rant over, etc. Suffice it to say that this translation is a brilliant job. Yes, there are some things I likely would have done differently, and other things that DS would have done differently, but show me two translators who would do a game exactly the same way and I'll see about getting you some tickets for a ski vacation in Ye Olde Subterranean Land of Fire and Brimstone. Marc clearly understands the essence of translation (and with him being a professional tranlator, I'd sure hope so), and I don't think anyone playing the game is going to have to worry about lost in translation type stuff.

Good on ya, Policenauts team!
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: DarknessSavior on August 30, 2009, 05:05:41 am
The art (yes ART!) of translation is all about translating what's being said, not what's being said.

I gotta tell you. I laughed.

That said, however, Marc absolutely NAILED the tone of the dialogue. Reading the text gives a ton of insight into the character just by speech pattern and word choice. I do not think it could have been done better in that regard. Seriously. Well done!

This I will give you. While I may not think that the content that is in the translation is the greatest, it does indeed sound like a detective saying those things. But there needs to be more of a balance, methinks.

~DS
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: zera9924 on August 30, 2009, 09:54:31 pm
Quote
you can't effectively show the intent of the authors unless it is localized so the new audience can understand the intent. you can't somehow translate into english while still leaving things as japanese as possible and have the new audience understand the work just as well as the original audience understood the original work. unless your new audience speaks only english while still trying to be as japanese as possible.

I think we're at a misunderstanding, in that case. What I mean by being literal is both keeping the wording intact as much as feasibly possible, but also carrying over the literal subtext, emotion, context, and other bits that are often lost in translation. Translation isn't just a matter of translating a string word-per-word, but also finding an equivalent way of expressing the character's emotions, accent, or other intricacies. An expression that's socially understood in Japanese won't necessarily be understood by an English audience, and vice-versa. In the same logic, I understand why localization teams may edit-out bits of Japanese culture, like replacing sushi with hotdogs or what-not.

Now I think I see the issue here. You guys are arguing against people who strictly feel "being literal" means translating something word-per-word, without any consideration to whether or not it makes sense to the target audience, or that the character's emotions or accents aren't carried over in some equivalent way. Some people even want to go as far as to leave honorifics intact. :laugh:

(although, again -- this doesn't seem to apply to the Policenauts debate / discussion)
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Kajitani-Eizan on August 30, 2009, 10:17:22 pm
I think we're at a misunderstanding, in that case. What I mean by being literal is both keeping the wording intact as much as feasibly possible, but also carrying over the literal subtext, emotion, context, and other bits that are often lost in translation.

ah... then i think you're on the wrong "side" of this discussion :P

Quote
Now I think I see the issue here. You guys are arguing against people who strictly feel "being literal" means translating something word-per-word, without any consideration to whether or not it makes sense to the target audience, or that the character's emotions or accents aren't carried over in some equivalent way. Some people even want to go as far as to leave honorifics intact. :laugh:

(although, again -- this doesn't seem to apply to the Policenauts debate / discussion)

but it does. i had the impression that some people thought they were far too liberal, and wanted something more true to the japanese version or something. i can only assume these people are the type who prefer a more "literal" translation, who complain when sentences are rearranged. i assume this because i seem to recall someone complaining about exactly that.

if we're claiming that these people indeed support a localization-based approach, now we're on really dubious ground. how is it that they're interested in "carrying over the literal subtext, emotion, context, and other bits that are often lost in translation" and "finding an equivalent way of expressing the character's emotions, accent, or other intricacies", yet they have such problems when the translation of policenauts seems to do exactly that and no more? these people should be saying "Bravo!", not complaining about how impure the translation is.

unless you're saying they're all for localization, but policenauts went too far. i mean, that's a pretty damn narrow target segment along the localization vs. stiff translation axis we're talking about, there. hell, i'm not sure you can really reasonably claim to be a proponent of both of those opinions. hence my disbelief. i dunno, maybe i haven't really played the game and hence i missed the parts where jonathan talks way out of line, but at least based on the intro, it sure doesn't look like that's a very reasonable claim. it's like they're concerned about how it ought to be 3.22 along the localization vs. stiff translation axis instead of 3.24, when changes by 0.1 are really the finest you can reasonably resolve.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: zera9924 on August 30, 2009, 10:31:57 pm
The extent of my complaint was that: 1.) too many bits were left out. I rarely believe there's a situation that calls for a total rewording of a sentence. A character accent can still be represented while keeping the literal wording intact. For instance, if the characters all speak in a medieval tone, then you can use early English grammar and syntax, but still be literal about it; and 2.) grammar / spelling. That's my main concern. That's what I mean by "unprofessional." It needs more editing.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Kajitani-Eizan on August 30, 2009, 10:48:09 pm
sorry, i'm still not seeing it, i guess... well, and for the second one, i suppose i haven't played it so i wouldn't have seen them.

could you give examples of each?
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Next Gen Cowboy on August 31, 2009, 03:41:04 am
I am one step away from locking this thread, which is pathetic; these guys took time out of their days, and lives so that a great deal of people could play this. We have seen a great deal of progression and hurdles crossed...And like usual all anyone can talk about is whether the translation met their specific criteria for being good (did you actually play it by the way?)

Let me say it again, cut the crap Zera! We have heard this discussion espoused by some of the best translators I have ever seen, and we never come to a conclusion if you want to talk about the translation then do it, if you want to argue over literal translations take it up with Deuce, Gemini and K-E in another thread please!

Edit: K-E is correct by the way the least you could do is present examples, if the entirety of your goal is to be argumentative than you may find yourself on the wrong side of the discussion. I do not mean to direct my comments at on individual but I asked everyone to please chill out om the topic (in this thread at least)
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Nightcrawler on August 31, 2009, 09:50:18 am
Well, I for one will not crap all over your release like some other ungrateful people that bring the community atmosphere down and scare people away from releasing anything...  ::)

I'm happy to see both a new complete PSX translation, of which we still have few of, as well as an English release relating to Snatcher!

That's great that you guys fixed some of the bugs in the original game too while you were at it.

Maybe the fact that it doesn't work on emulators will shine some attention for emulator authors to improve upon PSX emulation to play the game properly too. That's how we've advanced emulation to some degree in the past. The fan translation community can have some farther reaching impacts that may be immediately noticeable.

On behalf of the silent majority that comprises most of our community, thank you for this release!  :)
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: noneother on August 31, 2009, 10:33:05 am
Well, I for one will not crap all over your release like some other ungrateful people that bring the community atmosphere down and scare people away from releasing anything...  ::)

I'm happy to see both a new complete PSX translation, of which we still have few of, as well as an English release relating to Snatcher!

That's great that you guys fixed some of the bugs in the original game too while you were at it.

Maybe the fact that it doesn't work on emulators will shine some attention for emulator authors to improve upon PSX emulation to play the game properly too. That's how we've advanced emulation to some degree in the past. The fan translation community can have some farther reaching impacts that may be immediately noticeable.

On behalf of the silent majority that comprises most of our community, thank you for this release!  :)

Er... it does work on emulators, you just have to use a very specific plugin for Epsxe, and PSX plays the whole game but crashes during the ending credits if I remember correctly (which, admittedly, sucks). Still, second the general sentiment about improving PSX emulation. It'd be pretty great if you could just play a game without having to research it first to know which emulator will play it and under what condition.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: zera9924 on August 31, 2009, 12:49:25 pm
Off-topic:

I am one step away from locking this thread, which is pathetic;

And this is why RHDN staff members are frequently met with complaints. There is nothing wrong with this discussion. You're blowing the situation out of proportion and insinuating that users are bitter and argumentive when they are infact not. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy; go around branding user as criminals, and then affirm your actions when they suddenly turn against you.

Quote
Let me say it again, cut the crap Zera!

Well, thanks for dismissing anything I express as crap. I suppose that's easier than refuting any points I've made.

In Site Feedback, I raised the issue of moderators closing discussions based on personal bias. Here we are...

Quote
I do not mean to direct my comments at on individual but I asked everyone to please chill out om the topic (in this thread at least)

Who are you talking about, exactly? The pace of the thread is perfectly fine. Users are giving feedback about the translation, discussing and comparing opinions, and being perfectly civil about it. So far, only staff members have made accusations of incivility and flaming, when none of it is even occuring in the first place. The only incivility is coming from you and NC, who have taken it upon yourselves to say, "Hey, anyone who has a critical opinion of translation hacking is a big ol' douche-bag!" Doesn't matter how civil they are about it -- it's just plain inappropriate.

I don't prefer to take this to PM, because I think this indicates a good example of the issues raised in Site Feedback. That's all I will say on the matter, since it is off-topic to the discussion at hand. Take what you will from it.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: slowbeef on August 31, 2009, 01:55:08 pm
I wrote up a huge reply, because I got back this weekend and saw the thread exploded but screw it.  I'll say this part:


2. "grammar / spelling. That's my main concern. That's what I mean by "unprofessional." It needs more editing."

The script went through revision upon revision upon revision.  Testers found typos, suggested fixes, over and over and over.  This was proofread by a few people and redone to hell and back.

If you found "a lot", that's fine - please let us know because we can fix in v1.1, but you are the only person I have heard in the course of this thing voice a complaint in that regard.  So far, I personally know of one typo, although someone else claimed they found a few (three, to be specific), but hasn't listed them yet.

I can promise you though, that the script was really edited a lot, to the point where I told Marc he had to stop if we were ever going to release this thing - and I had to tell him a couple of times over the course of a few months.



Also, is this an appropriate place to talk about ROM hacking Snatcher?  I had kind of an interest in the PSX/Saturn versions, but Marc suggested the PC-Engine version, which sounds interesting.  I know MSX was already done, but I dunno.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: KaioShin on August 31, 2009, 01:59:53 pm
Also, is this an appropriate place to talk about ROM hacking Snatcher?  I had kind of an interest in the PSX/Saturn versions, but Marc suggested the PC-Engine version, which sounds interesting.  I know MSX was already done, but I dunno.

This thread specifically probably yes, but feel free to create a new one about Snatcher in the translation hacking section.

And just ignore the translation elitist trolls. They show up at every major release.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Pennywise on August 31, 2009, 02:08:22 pm
I wrote up a huge reply, because I got back this weekend and saw the thread exploded but screw it.  I'll say this part:


2. "grammar / spelling. That's my main concern. That's what I mean by "unprofessional." It needs more editing."

The script went through revision upon revision upon revision.  Testers found typos, suggested fixes, over and over and over.  This was proofread by a few people and redone to hell and back.

If you found "a lot", that's fine - please let us know because we can fix in v1.1, but you are the only person I have heard in the course of this thing voice a complaint in that regard.  So far, I personally know of one typo, although someone else claimed they found a few (three, to be specific), but hasn't listed them yet.

I can promise you though, that the script was really edited a lot, to the point where I told Marc he had to stop if we were ever going to release this thing - and I had to tell him a couple of times over the course of a few months.



Also, is this an appropriate place to talk about ROM hacking Snatcher?  I had kind of an interest in the PSX/Saturn versions, but Marc suggested the PC-Engine version, which sounds interesting.  I know MSX was already done, but I dunno.

Which Snatcher for the MSX, SD or normal? I do know that SD could use a re-do and this site doesn't a complete Snatcher translation, but an almost complete exists. Maybe.

Also, if interested in doing a PC Engine translation, it would be in your best interest to contact Dave Shadoff, Tomaitheous or maybe even Esper Knight, who seems to enjoy hacking the system lately.

You'd probably want to start another thread fot that as well.

Also, nice job on the translation.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: zera9924 on August 31, 2009, 02:19:50 pm
If you found "a lot", that's fine - please let us know because we can fix in v1.1, but you are the only person I have heard in the course of this thing voice a complaint in that regard.

If you're serious about this, I don't mind taking look at the script and making corrections. Just PM me a copy of it and I'll go over it in my spare time.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: DarknessSavior on August 31, 2009, 02:24:34 pm
If you found "a lot", that's fine - please let us know because we can fix in v1.1, but you are the only person I have heard in the course of this thing voice a complaint in that regard.

If you're serious about this, I don't mind taking look at the script and making corrections. Just PM me a copy of it and I'll go over it in my spare time.

I actually think this would be a good idea. From what I've seen, zera is an incredible writer. I mean, go read the script he wrote from scratch:

http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8865.0.html

~DS
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: mastermx on August 31, 2009, 03:57:06 pm
Translated all text and fixed bugs!? this translation was handled better then it would have been if it were translated by konami themselves!

All that time of waiting. and its out. I love this game  :laugh:
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Next Gen Cowboy on August 31, 2009, 06:05:51 pm
Zera: All I asked was for you to take the discussion of how to translate to another thread, as well as asking you to present some example, and just generally show a little respect for the people who worked on this.

Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Carnivol on August 31, 2009, 06:17:27 pm
If you found "a lot", that's fine - please let us know because we can fix in v1.1, but you are the only person I have heard in the course of this thing voice a complaint in that regard.

If you're serious about this, I don't mind taking look at the script and making corrections. Just PM me a copy of it and I'll go over it in my spare time.

I actually think this would be a good idea. From what I've seen, zera is an incredible writer. I mean, go read the script he wrote from scratch:

http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8865.0.html

~DS

I dunno if this is a good idea or not. No offense to the script in the link there or anything, as that might be top notch stuff (Didn't read it. Sorry!) But there's no reason to fix something that's not really broken, and part of Zera's issues with the translation seem to be rooted in a lack of experience with (or possibly; understanding of) the shortcomings of subtitling and/or text that otherwise relies on limited screen time.


too many bits were left out. I rarely believe there's a situation that calls for a total rewording of a sentence.

In fear of partially repeating myself about what I said in a previous post;
If you only have 2-4 seconds (max) + two rows of approx. 45 characters each, you usually can't fit everything. No matter how carefully you select your words, or how backwards you try to write things. The thing you always do is crop out whatever's being repeated, anything and everything that just "takes up space", and then just take whatever's left and make sure it sounds consistent (as in; in-character and such) with everything else (which in this case is not voiced).

Personally, I've always hated working with subtitles for exotic languages that feels a need to reference, cross-reference, quoting, joke about, and/or make lame puns about anything and everything (like many Japanese scripts have a horrible habit of doing), 'cause sometimes it's pretty much impossible to convert all of that, in a comprehensible way, into a different language, without first bringing out the butcher knife and give it a solid stabbing. If you're dubbing... then it's a whole different case~ (Although I don't always think something needs a dub, depending on its setting and such, it sure makes a lot of things easier!)

However, I'm cutting my own bla bla bla here. I dunno where the line is drawn for "same old, different day" discussions around here and when the can of worms is full and ready for having its lid closed 'n sealed. Would rather not be the one to have this one closed.



Anyway, I'd say that what the good folks on the Policenauts team should probably do, would be to harvest any and all general "documented" feedback (screenshots/transcripts of typos, awkwardly worded stuff, etc. + evt. stuff about other suggested changes and/or "bugs") and just take things from there for any evt. v1.1 update.
(Also, sorry, slowbeef! For not keeping better notes of stuff that might be typo-ish bugs! I just sometimes try to avoid mixing work with private life, even though the glorious world of translation and localization is always so exciting :laugh:) 


Also, a general question of curiosity: How are the Japanese subtitles/captions in the game? Are they pure 1:1 transcripts of ALL the audio content (in my experience, this rarely happens, there are always at least some lines that aren't 1:1 with the audio, for space/timing reasons), or are they done like any other normal subtitles?
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: DarknessSavior on August 31, 2009, 07:02:20 pm
Uh, trust me. Read the script. It's seriously one of the best things I've read, as far as fan-made material goes, even if it kinda hard to understand. =/

~DS
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Carnivol on August 31, 2009, 07:17:00 pm
Uh, trust me. Read the script. It's seriously one of the best things I've read, as far as fan-made material goes, even if it kinda hard to understand. =/

~DS

I'll see if I can sneak it into a coffee break or something in a not too distant future. I'm just way too easily distracted and occupied (with a whole lot of random junk and nothingness) these days :'(
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: mastermx on August 31, 2009, 08:47:39 pm
I dont see how anyone can complain. This is seriously a translation that has surpassed all others including official translations. A good translation is not one that is simply "converted" but one that is tailored to the needs and expressions of another language.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: tc on August 31, 2009, 10:40:02 pm
How well does this run on PSP? Before I go messing around with that, I'd like to be sure. :beer:
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: slowbeef on August 31, 2009, 10:50:46 pm
How well does this run on PSP? Before I go messing around with that, I'd like to be sure. :beer:

Very well, better than emulation.  It was my hardware testing platform of choice.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Lilinda on September 01, 2009, 12:08:25 am
Um...

You do realize the PSP emulates the PS1, right?
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: slowbeef on September 01, 2009, 12:40:31 am
Um...

You do realize the PSP emulates the PS1, right?

Yeah, I mispoke there.  I meant better than PC emulation (i.e. pSX or ePSXe.)
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: tc on September 01, 2009, 01:19:25 am
OK. My idea worked for Snatcher, so I'm not surprised.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: slowbeef on September 01, 2009, 03:08:48 pm
If you're serious about this, I don't mind taking look at the script and making corrections. Just PM me a copy of it and I'll go over it in my spare time.

I've been trying to figure out how to reply to this without further derailing the thread.

No offense, but I don't know who you are, and I'm not comfortable telling the translator that I found some guy on the Internet and he wants to proofread and change the script.  It's also an incredibly long script, so I think would take a few weeks to proofread - and either way - I'm still not comfortable with it.

Thank you for the offer, but if you do find anything you'd like to see changed, I'd encourage you to go to policenauts.net and suggest it there like everyone else.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Carnivol on September 03, 2009, 10:43:29 am
One thing's for sure, if you guys ever do a v1.1, I've promised myself that I'll make a better surface print than this (http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3272/photo599.jpg)!

I kinda forgot to make black black and up the contrast a little after scanning the original... I did however make white white, and I did add some minor nitpicky adjustments... such as removing the Japan Only text stuff + turning [ NTSC | J ][/b] into [ NTSC | U/C ], etc... But I could probably try to print closer to the edges (if there is a next time). Kinda missed a little as I haven't printed a label directly on a disc since... uhm... since... over 6 years ago.

But they still look somewhat nice next to their original cousins~
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Corsair on September 03, 2009, 08:08:34 pm
Some people even want to go as far as to leave honorifics intact. :laugh:

I probably have no place in this discussion, seeing as I don't speak a lick of Japanese, but...
HONORIFICS MAKE ME RAGE HARD. And I'm glad I haven't seen any in this translation. It's always something that worries me. It's something I have no way to relate to and random interjections of -san -sama, etc. seem out of place in an english script.

Another thing that bugs me is when i see stuff like, let's just say Jack and Sarah are having a conversation about a particular personality quick that Sarah possesses:

Sarah: *does quirky thing*
Jack, to sarah: "Oh I love it when Sarah does that quirky thing! Sarah is delightful!"
Sarah, to Jack: "And Jack is a pervert!"

Talking to one another as though they were talking about each other to an invisble 3rd party. Like it never occurs to the translator/writer to use "you".

I just figured I'd take this opportunity to get that off my chest.
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: KaioShin on September 18, 2009, 10:19:30 am
Just finished the game, and I have to say you did a mighty fine translation. Good work :beer:
Title: Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
Post by: Red Soul on September 22, 2009, 08:30:44 pm
This translation is very well done in all fields, I really have no complaints at all; I loved Snatcher and thanks to the people that worked hard to bring Policenauts to the english speaking audiences, I can say I love it too.