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Romhacking => Personal Projects => Topic started by: ManaRedux on June 02, 2020, 02:13:32 am

Title: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on June 02, 2020, 02:13:32 am
Secret of Mana: Reborn is the first release of the SAP, and it is now available for download.  The details from the landing page:

-a complete retranslation of the original Japanese script, the first of its kind
-some minor alterations that clarify vagaries and inconsistencies in the text and the plot itself
-new events and content based on exhaustive research of authentic external materials, most of which were never translated into English
-memorable elements of both Ted Woolsey’s script and the Japanese script
elements that were omitted from both the American and Japanese releases of the game
the original American font
-As a result, this script is almost twice the size of the SNES English release.

It comes with a detailed commentary.

Changelog:

V1.0 - released
V1.1 - Made ~80 changes, mostly minor readability improvements
V1.2 - Made ~170 changes, similar to 1.1
V1.3 - made another ~40 changes, similar to the previous two.
V1.4 - made another ~40 changes
V1.5 - made another ~120 changes.

The commentary is updated with each release.  There's more background information here: https://manaredux.blogspot.com/2020/11/secret-of-mana-reborn.html



The next release is more traditional translation, with no additions and the original Japanese names.

We also hope to release SoM: Reborn with a better text box and font.  This was our intention for this release, but there were too many challenges to overcome.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Queue on June 07, 2020, 02:31:09 pm
Oh whoops, the lowercase "gp" was my fault when transcribing. Since the first draft was complete I had it importing automatically, but the second draft still has some holes in it so I had set the event text for it up by hand.

There are quite a few more good examples between the original English and Script Augmentation Project's Retranslation that I'll get comparison screenshots prepared for.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: azidahaka on June 07, 2020, 02:54:12 pm
Been talking about this project for year along with reconstructingmana  :thumbsup:

Great stuff, can't wait to help with the extra stuff and i keep rooting for a VWF that would be a great gift for the worldwide fans that wish to translate the game to their own languages. :angel:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: DragonArk on June 08, 2020, 08:31:39 pm
Looking forward to it! If you need an extra set of eyes to go through the script and make any suggestions I'm happy to.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Vanya on June 08, 2020, 10:57:29 pm
"I'm interested in this."

Really like the attention to detail here.
And especially intrigued by the expanded lore and character information.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Thanatos-Zero on June 10, 2020, 12:43:35 pm
It seems RedScorpion and I helped to inspire this project.
I sort of wish we succeeded in the first place and in time.
But you know what? You will do a far more better job, than we did.

By the way, are there any plans to make foreshadowing towards Anise the witch?
It is said, that she herself, always grows strong whenever Mana grows weak.
According to Dawn of Mana and Trials of Mana, she seeks to flood all worlds with the Dark Echoes of Mavolia, destroying them the process.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Thirteen 1355 on June 10, 2020, 03:12:58 pm
Meh. Think it'd be much better to just write what they were actually trying to write (at which they already failed horribly originally), instead of adding in stuff from later games. It'd be good to add stuff confirmed missing or unused but planned back in, though.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on June 10, 2020, 06:41:41 pm
It seems RedScorpion and I helped to inspire this project.
I sort of wish we succeeded in the first place and in time.
But you know what? You will do a far more better job, than we did.

By the way, are there any plans to make foreshadowing towards Anise the witch?
It is said, that she herself, always grows strong whenever Mana grows weak.
According to Dawn of Mana and Trials of Mana, she seeks to flood all worlds with the Dark Echoes of Mavolia, destroying them the process.

IIRC, you were part of the many GameFAQs discussions back in the day on the game's development.  I was a lurker on those threads, but it was part of the inspiration for my site, which indirectly led to this project.

I am hopelessly ignorant about the rest of the Mana series.  My philosophy is more in line with Thirteen 1355, especially since the Mana games are only loosely based on each other.

Meh. Think it'd be much better to just write what they were actually trying to write (at which they already failed horribly originally), instead of adding in stuff from later games. It'd be good to add stuff confirmed missing or unused but planned back in, though.

Yes, but only from books and the remake, sadly.  Despite years of exhaustive research, I have never found any prerelease elements that can be realized, unless you count dummied animations/items.  A significant portion of one prerelease area can be reconstructed by joining screenshots, but it's still incomplete and we don't know where it fit in.  I think it was a test map.

There is evidence that you were supposed to be able to start with the girl or sprite instead of the boy, similar to Trials of Mana. 

From prerelease maps, we know what areas looked like in development, but have no idea what was actually there.

Some have suggested that I "run wild" and expand the scenario based on what I know, but I'm sure you can imagine the complexities of such a problem are insurmountable, and the final product would be at best, depressingly arbitrary.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Thanatos-Zero on June 11, 2020, 06:19:52 am
IIRC, you were part of the many GameFAQs discussions back in the day on the game's development.  I was a lurker on those threads, but it was part of the inspiration for my site, which indirectly led to this project.
I am interrested to take a read of those topics. If you do not mind, can you provide a link?

I am hopelessly ignorant about the rest of the Mana series.  My philosophy is more in line with Thirteen 1355, especially since the Mana games are only loosely based on each other.
Partially yes, partially no. Legend of Mana for example references both Seiken Densetsu 2 and 3, as it serves as a sort of mainhub, which connects all the worlds.
It is good, that dedicated fans brought the script to the web.
https://legendofmana.info/encyclopedias/world-history/

But the general gist is, that a portion of the games have their own universes.
SD1 and it's remakes is one such universe.
Dawn of Mana and Children of Mana form one, as well as Heroes of Mana and Trials of Mana.
However there is the implication that those four games belong to one universe.

In any case Secret of Mana is his own universe, but in any case we shouldn't ignore the connections.

Yes, but only from books and the remake, sadly.  Despite years of exhaustive research, I have never found any prerelease elements that can be realized, unless you count dummied animations/items.  A significant portion of one prerelease area can be reconstructed by joining screenshots, but it's still incomplete and we don't know where it fit in.  I think it was a test map.
I believe many unused elements can be found in the future games. Trials of Mana, Legend of Mana, Dawn of Mana... We only need to keep our eyes and ears open.

There is evidence that you were supposed to be able to start with the girl or sprite instead of the boy, similar to Trials of Mana.
IIRC Moppleton/Moppo's SoM Randomiser as of now allows to start the game with one of the three.

From prerelease maps, we know what areas looked like in development, but have no idea what was actually there.
We can only guess. But we reach the points through constant questioning.

Some have suggested that I "run wild" and expand the scenario based on what I know, but I'm sure you can imagine the complexities of such a problem are insurmountable, and the final product would be at best, depressingly arbitrary.
This can be done last, after everything else has been finished down the line.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Thirteen 1355 on June 11, 2020, 06:40:07 am
My current issue with Secret of Mana is not just the writing, but also the story being quite incoherent (didn't I read that on Redux? The seeds sealed/unsealed and needing to be sealed/unsealed). I don't know how much would need to be changed to make the story at least work, but maybe it's possible to aim for that? The Mana series' stories confuse me, if anything.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Thanatos-Zero on June 11, 2020, 06:52:01 am
My current issue with Secret of Mana is not just the writing, but also the story being quite incoherent (didn't I read that on Redux? The seeds sealed/unsealed and needing to be sealed/unsealed). I don't know how much would need to be changed to make the story at least work, but maybe it's possible to aim for that? The Mana series' stories confuse me, if anything.
That is one of the things I love to see resolved in a proper fashion.
Also, there is this burning question I have for a while.
Why does our heroic trio go to the empire in the first place?

At this point in the game, we as the player lack a proper motivation in-universe to go there.

In Trials of Mana for example, we were always pointed towards the locations of the mana stones for to gather the mana spirits.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on June 11, 2020, 03:11:09 pm
@Queue, my Japanese books finally arrived today!  Took me almost two months to procure them.  Some really great material in here. 
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on June 12, 2020, 04:28:17 am
What is the money called in Japanese?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Thanatos-Zero on June 12, 2020, 10:10:47 am
What is the money called in Japanese?
I do not know, what the money was called in Seiken Densetsu 2, but in future games the currency is called Lucre.
Neither do I know, if it is a localised name or of the japanese original.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Queue on June 12, 2020, 03:03:33 pm
Quote from: ManaRedux
@Queue, my Japanese books finally arrived today!  Took me almost two months to procure them.  Some really great material in here.
Neat! And a that's a relief.

I've been working on the next pass at the integration script, to have it better handle how it decides to split up text between boxes, etc. and how it handles mismatches in how some text is laid out by row in the spreadsheet. My goal is still to need as little specialized markup as possible.

For testing I was try to make it use the second draft text, then fall back on the first draft text where the second draft wasn't done, but that was proving to be needlessly complex and ultimately a waste as the second draft gets finished and the next draft (or whatever) is worked on. So that was sort've a frustrating waste of effort. -_-
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on June 12, 2020, 03:36:36 pm
Neat! And a that's a relief.

I've been working on the next pass at the integration script, to have it better handle how it decides to split up text between boxes, etc. and how it handles mismatches in how some text is laid out by row in the spreadsheet. My goal is still to need as little specialized markup as possible.

For testing I was try to make it use the second draft text, then fall back on the first draft text where the second draft wasn't done, but that was proving to be needlessly complex and ultimately a waste as the second draft gets finished and the next draft (or whatever) is worked on. So that was sort've a frustrating waste of effort. -_-

Much appreciated!  I've started going through and am moving text around so it fits within the confines of each box.  Hopefully, that will reduce confusion and make the process more uniform. 


I do not know, what the money was called in Seiken Densetsu 2, but in future games the currency is called Lucre.
Neither do I know, if it is a localised name or of the japanese original.

In our notes, we have it as "Luc." 
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: BobNewbie on June 12, 2020, 10:58:50 pm
I wanted to give my thumbs up and support for the team. I'm Currently Learning Japanese(tm) with the personal goal of playing Secret of Mana (せいけんでんせつ2) in its native language. Personally, I always kicked around the idea of doing a new translation myself. I even thought about the logistics, such as how to expand the ROM to support a [longer] English script. Until recently, it just seemed like Secret of Mana was a forgotten gem, but, now, the franchise has found new life. I've been a fan of your blog, ManaRedux, and I definitely think you have passion for the game. Thank you, SAP Team, for undertaking this project.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: azidahaka on June 13, 2020, 05:25:23 pm
That is one of the things I love to see resolved in a proper fashion.
Also, there is this burning question I have for a while.
Why does our heroic trio go to the empire in the first place?

At this point in the game, we as the player lack a proper motivation in-universe to go there.

In Trials of Mana for example, we were always pointed towards the locations of the mana stones for to gather the mana spirits.
My current issue with Secret of Mana is not just the writing, but also the story being quite incoherent (didn't I read that on Redux? The seeds sealed/unsealed and needing to be sealed/unsealed). I don't know how much would need to be changed to make the story at least work, but maybe it's possible to aim for that? The Mana series' stories confuse me, if anything.

I had lots of talks and conjectures about the whole sealing/unsealing situation with Manaredux, and my personal idea is that the mana fortress is a kind of mana battery that needs to be charged to reactivate. Breaking the seals causes it to syphon mana energy until it has enough charge to reactivate itself. Also the mana seeds seems to have to be in their shrines for the process to happen; else the empire could just steal off the seeds instead of breaking the seals and leaving them where they are, right?

Last musing is that it's very strategic from the empire to be so stubbornly going for the water seed since tasnica republic is a maritime power and the stormy weathers that the weakining of the water seeds produces certainly made the country weaker.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on June 14, 2020, 05:56:33 am
@Queue, I reformatted all text in the second draft so far.  It now lines up exactly as it should appear in the game, and speakers are designated again.  I used RANDIX and PURIMX for the boy and girl to account for the extra possible byte.  I don't think there's a need to switch to the wide font after all.  Even if we did, we'd still have to break some sentences up.  In my entire run through, I only had to remove two words (a clarification that wasn't in the original script) to make things fit better.

Because the lines are in memory order, I'm not always sure which were spoken by the girl before you name her.  The script has GIRL regardless.  I guess we'll find out during playtesting if we have a gogogogogogogogogogogogo... situation on our hands.  ;D

One problem to solve is the prologue.  I believe the original prologue has six text boxes (not counting "But time flows...).  The retranslated prologue has fourteen, as some of the lines have been spaced our for dramatic effect.  From a coding standpoint, I don't know what the easiest route is, but we could start out with a black screen, and then have the graphics come in at the correct point.  We could also insert extra scenes into the prologue and/or change the timing.  It has to line up perfectly to sync with the music with the flyover.  When I played the first draft version, it was comical waiting for the text to finish, just running endlessly...

Another problem is the correct formatting of decisions, like (Yes No).  How much space between the choices can be constant if everything fits on one line, but with the expanded translation, oftentimes, we need two.  The way Google Sheets works, getting extra spaces to show up correctly is difficult. 

Sometimes, both the Japanese script and Woolsey (more often in Woolsey) saved space by having a box with one word that starts multiple sentences.  For example, there's one box with Salamando, and then other boxes with sentences that continue after that.  In many cases, the original Japanese did not have this cutoff, but I don't think it will be an issue.

There are some lines that are unique to the Japanese script or Woolsey.  Luckily, they seem to come after the previous lines, and are not randomly spaced in the list.  This is also true for lines we're adding.

Also, when analyzing enemies/orbs for magic, Woolsey's version had this:

Gnome
Undine
Sylphid
Salamando
Lumina
Shade
Luna
Dryad
s magic
will work

The Japanese simply has, "Responded to X's magic."  Some workaround there will be needed.

Taosenai informed me that he was grading papers last week, and plans on resuming work this week.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Queue on June 14, 2020, 02:38:19 pm
For the prologue... hm... one option is shorter pauses between text boxes. The player will have less time to read, but this would be a way to fit more text to avoid desyncing the audio. Inserting more scenes wouldn't help as the audio is what limits us: the prologue sound is all one long track that just plays, and the text and visuals are timed to it. Showing text before starting up the audio is an option, though I'd think that would need to be done sparingly to not be ugly.



The decision text things have to all fit on one line. The game's mechanism for highlighting the current selection simply can't span lines. The parenthesis aren't required, they were used as an indicator to clarify you had a choice to select (though an ending parenthesis is the only character that can terminate the highlighting on a final choice).

Additionally, I have to have the decision options split to multiple rows in the spreadsheet:
look at rows 148 / 149
Code: [Select]
Do you want to save?
(Yes No)
Those and the matching Woolsey lines must be split up into at least 2 rows, but ideally 4; so either:
Code: [Select]
Do you want to save?
(Yes
No)
...or even better:
Code: [Select]
Do you want to save?
(
Yes
No
)
There's no other way for me to automatically match up the old and new text for the options because some options contain multiple words. Pick either the layout where the parenthesis get their own rows, or where they're attached to the first and last choice and stick to it, and I'll program the integration script to match.

For example, row 180:
Code: [Select]
(Hand it over    Run Away)I can't tell if that's 5 options or fewer; the wide space in the middle is inadequate.

For reference, internally, a 2 choice decision is broken up into 3 chunks:
Code: [Select]
(
One
Two )

I can compensate for the orphaned opening parenthesis, but there's no way for me to break up the choice words when some options are multiple words.

Additionally, if you want specialized spacing, use underscores in place of spaces. In the row 180 example, if you want 4 spaces between the choices, I think the following would be the most reasonable way to format it:
Code: [Select]
(Hand it over
___Run Away)
Note it's 3 underscores for 4 spaces. One space is currently always inserted between decision choices (this can be changed, but only if the spaces are explicitly defined in the spreadsheet). The extra spaces are attached to the following decision to ensure option highlighting seams occur in the space.



The events trying to share text to save space isn't too tough to work around, and we don't have the space constraint that necessitates them (technically neither did Woolsey; there was actually a fairly healthy amount of free space left). There aren't actually too many of these: the Sage-is-out stuff uses it, but adjustments are already in place for those; the little hint girl in Kakkara's lines will need accommodations in the integration script, but that shouldn't be too tough.



The spell orb stuff can either be handled the same way as Woolsey, where it's just the elemental name, followed by a suffix event that adds the rest, or if you want custom text per element, the suffix can be detached and you just write what you want per elemental. Either works for me.

So if you want it to be "Responded to ???'s magic!" put that in place of each elemental name, and put some sort of note like "UNUSED" in place of the separate "'s magic will work!" text.



I still intend to set up (many) more example screenshots but unfortunately found myself short on time this past week+, sorry!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: 91-MPH on June 14, 2020, 09:24:13 pm
I do not know, what the money was called in Seiken Densetsu 2, but in future games the currency is called Lucre.
Neither do I know, if it is a localised name or of the japanese original.

The first time I've noticed the word Lucre used in a localized Mana game, was from the recent Trials of Mana Remake.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on June 15, 2020, 11:41:31 am
While Queue is working on screenshots, I wanted to say something about names because our approach is different than the norm.

I feel that translating names is a different problem than translating the text around them.  Oftentimes, names were localized just fine the first time around, and I don't see the name to retranslate them just for the sake of retranslating them.  I don't have a clean comparison handy for the Japanese vs. Woolsey vs. more literal translation, but for the most part, Woolsey did a fine job relocalizing the weapon, armor, magic, monster and item names.  Significant deviations are not common, and when they are, there seemed to be a good reason. 

With regards to character names, I have a similar philosophy.  For example, Dyluck's name translates as Dirac, but Dyluck is not a bad realization.  Jema is usually spelled Gemma in later games, but the former is fine for our purpose.  Our names for Meria and Morie are Merillat and Moliere (the original script implies a French influence which makes sense as Tasnica is a Republic) as opposed to Mereria and Morieru.  Getting back to monsters for a sec, Tropicallo is a stronger name than the translation of the original, Bud (Bado is another possibility). 

The most significant ones to mention are the Mana Sword, the Mana Beast, and the Palaces.  In Japanese, the Mana Sword was the Holy Sword, and Seiken Densetsu is literally, "Legend of the Holy Sword."  The Mana Beast was the Godbeast.  But we are strongly inclined to stick with Mana Sword and Mana Beast because these sound more distinguished in English than the literal translations.  Furthermore, the surrounding text makes it very clear that the Mana Sword is holy (purified in holy water).  The Mana Sword starts out as a "rusted holy sword" in Japanese and when fully upgraded becomes mananoken, or Mana Sword.  In other words, just because you call it a Mana Sword, doesn't mean it's not holy too.

For Palaces, using the Water Palace as an example, it can also be translated as Water Temple or Water Shrine.  But Water Palace is not bad in and of itself, especially when there's a real life counterpart (Jal Mahal).     

Some may feel this is inconsistent and even arbitrary.  Why bother if you're keeping most of the original names?  I'm not the only one who feels this way though.  Our translation group, all except one having done this thing before, says things like, "just stick with Woolsey here", "this is not literal but I like Woolsey better", etc.  We are far more concerned about getting nuances and details out of the original script than exhaustively retranslating names.  This is not a purist approach, but one that I am confident will work well.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Vanya on June 15, 2020, 10:16:34 pm
Besides, if anyone is really bothered by such things, they can always make those specific changes themselves. I include myself since I personally prefer a much more literal approach to names regardless of nostalgia to a great degree.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on June 16, 2020, 01:26:49 am
Besides, if anyone is really bothered by such things, they can always make those specific changes themselves. I include myself since I personally prefer a much more literal approach to names regardless of nostalgia to a great degree.

One thing that is likely to happen is a patch of just the retranslation that's serving the basis for our script.  If we release that, then yes, we'd leave all names as they were.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Piotyr on June 16, 2020, 07:39:06 am
I am currently loving the patches that let you pick and choose what you want out of it. Maybe you can do that too since you are working with someone whose done one :).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Thanatos-Zero on June 18, 2020, 04:55:25 am
I have forgotten to ask the following. Does the retranslation use VWF?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on June 18, 2020, 05:59:48 am
I have forgotten to ask the following. Does the retranslation use VWF?

As stated in the description, it uses the original font.  The biggest argument against this route is that sentences have to be broken up across boxes, but even if we used the VWF, we'd have the same problem.

That being said, offering that as an alternative would probably not be much extra work.  The problem is I have no way of previewing how the VWF would look.  Since the original font is monospaced, it makes it extremely easy to know how it will show up in the game.



@Queue, this is my proposal for the prologue.  Taosenai and myself have not discussed this text yet, so it may change slightly.

GraphicSAP CountSAPSAP SizeSNES CountSNESSNES Size
Blank ScreenBox #1In Ancient times...19
Box #2a civilization that evolved through the power of Mana...56
Box #3...had prospered across the planet.35
Box #4Before long, humans began to use the power of Mana in war...60
Box #5...and this led to the creation of a huge battleship...55
Box #6...the Mana Fortress...23Box #1Using the power of Mana, a civilization had grown strong.57
Mana Fortress ExteriorBox #7Its enormous power touched the anger of the gods...51Box #2In time, Mana was used to create the ultimate weapon: the Mana Fortress.72
Box #8...and the Mana Beast was sent to the Earth.44
Mana Fortress InteriorBox #9A furious battle ensued and wrapped the world in fire and poison.65Box #3This angered the gods.  They sent their beasts to destroy the Fortress...73
Box #10Mana was lost on the planet.28
Scorched EarthBox #11Then, a hero came with the Mana Sword, and the Fortress fell.  63Box #4A violent war rocked the world, and Mana seemed to disappear...63
Mana TreeBox #12The Mana Beast vanished from the face of the Earth.51Box #5Before all was lost, a hero with the Mana Sword smashed the fortress.69
Box #13The civilization was destroyed in the war...44
Box #14...but once again, there was peace in the world.48Box #6Though the civilization had been destroyed, the world was peaceful again.73
Blank ScreenBox #15But time flows like a river...30Box #7 But time flows like a river...30
Box #16...and history repeats...25Box #8...and history repeats.23

The prologue starts against a blank screen in the SNES.  But instead of one box, we'll have six in the SAP.  From there, I spaced out the SAP's boxes to read in the closest amount of time to the SNES script.  Even though some (all?) boxes may have to go faster, there's less text to read overall.

The images don't line up as well, but they're generic enough that this may still work.  I don't know how else to do this without some wild redesign of the prologue sequence. 
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: justin3009 on June 18, 2020, 06:37:26 am
Implementing a VWF isn't too bad, I did it ages ago as a test that went unreleased.

It's pretty possible to code it so things auto line break when it hits a certain amount of pixels but it'd have to check the word size to be safe. Only problem there is if there's something you want to emphasize via line break you'd have to do it manually.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Queue on June 19, 2020, 01:55:49 pm
justin3009, emphasis via line break and textbox break is the exact issue. It's much harder to plan without being able to format the text as it would appear in game. Since SAP's text is being managed via a Google Docs spreadsheet, specialized fonts to do so aren't an option.

Implementation isn't a factor. My current plan is to offer VWF display as an option (with monospaced vanilla as the default) but where it will have exactly the same line breaks as when monospaced. We'll see how it goes when things progress that far.



ManaRedux, I'll get that prototyped and then we can see how the timing works out.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on June 19, 2020, 06:55:08 pm
ManaRedux, I'll get that prototyped and then we can see how the timing works out.

Nicely done!!  For some reason the "heartbeat" cut out on my ROM when "In the Dead of Night" starts. 
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Queue on June 19, 2020, 08:56:26 pm
Good catch, have already made the change to fix that.

Explanation: The heartbeat is a looping sound effect. Starting a music track stops any currently playing looping sounds. Normally, the prologue music track starts then immediately is followed by the heartbeat loop being started. Since the timing changes put the music start one scene later, it was stopping said heartbeat. The easy fix is to just start the heartbeat up again after starting the prologue music.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on June 25, 2020, 09:32:13 pm
One of the things that the English translation (and even the original Japanese) did not make clear is that after you seal the seven Seeds before the Tree Palace, the Empire went out and unsealed them again.  They did this in record time, because while you're in Tasnica, the Emperor travels to the continent after this takes place.  The first two translations did not make this clear:

Quote
Woolsey:What's the Emperor up to?   
2018 Remake:The Emperor's troops are on the move. What's the emperor up to?
Japanese:It's said that the Imperial Emperor has left his castle. Is he finally making his move?

So basically, your entire quest is in vain once you reach the Emperor there.  This is what he says in Japanese:

Quote
If the seals on the Temples throughout the world are dissolved, what has until now been called the "sunken" Ancient continent will rise to the surface!  Already, the Seals on the Temples throughout the world have been undone. The last one is here. With this, the Mana Fortress will be resurrected!

Picard at the Lighthouse says that the Tree Palace is a "switch" that will float the sunken continent.  Also, in Tasnica:

Quote
It's said that a legendary Ancient continent is submerged at the bottom of the sea beneath the coral reef.
The Empire's aim is to cause it to surface, it would seem. The Seeds in the Temples in each land act as a seal on that.

From this, we conclude that the purpose of sealing the Mana Seeds is to keep the continent submerged.  After this has been done, one must be at the Tree Palace to flip the final "switch."  However, we also know from Luka that when the Mana Seeds and the Mana Sword resonate, the Sword gains power. 

Woolsey uses the word "seal" when Randi first goes to the Water Palace, but this is not present in the Japanese:

Quote
Now, hold up the Holy Sword to the Mana Seed atop the altar...The Mana Seed and the Holy Sword resonated!

But after Geshtar breaks the seal on the Water Seed, Luka says:

Quote
Now, use the Holy Sword to once again seal the Water Seed!

However, somewhat confusingly, she also says this at the end:

Quote
If the seals on the Mana Seeds are all dissolved before you can revive the Mana Sword, I don't know that we'd be able to do anything...

I have a hard time reconciling the previous two lines.  On one hand, you seal each Seed with the Mana Sword, but on the other, they can be dissolved with no hope of you reviving them.

So I guess that the Mana Seeds basically exist to check the Fortress.  The more the Sword resonates with them, the more powerful it becomes, and the more likely the Fortress will be smashed again.  Also, they are essentially an eight prong lock on the sunken continent.  There's also a pagan nature religion angle as each Seed represents an element in a Temple. 

After the Emperor melts the final Seed, Jema says something like this:

Quote
Randi! Are you OK? Somehow, we managed to escape. In the end, I was unable to stop the revival of the Mana Fortress. And the Holy Sword is still not...

The Godbeast of Mana should appear any moment now. If the firepower of the Fortress clashes with the Godbeast, the world will be brought to ruin once again... 

At the edge of the world, there is a forbidden place known as the, "Mana Holy Land."  Normally, it is enveloped in clouds, and it isn't possible to enter from the sky. However, things are different now.  The animating power of the Fortress is Mana energy. The Mana Fortress is stealing away the last of the little remaining Mana power!
 Is it possible that the clouds concealing the Holy Land, which is protected by Mana, may have disappeared!?

The Mana Seeds are but a small part of the Mana Tree...
The power of the Holy Sword has been restored this far by resonating with the seeds.  If you cause the sword to resonate with the Mana Tree itself, it's possible that it will be resurrected into its complete form!

I think what Jema's saying is that it doesn't matter that the Empire dissolved every Seed.  By going to the Holy Land, you can recharge the Sword directly at the Mana Tree and gain full power to take on the Fortress.  I don't know the mechanics of the game, but I don't believe there's any mathematical change in the Sword's power despite this happening.  However, restoring the Sword by having it resonating with the Seeds may still be a different problem than sealing them.

Even after a close look at the script, it is still not clear what the state of each Seed was in the beginning.  Obviously, some were sealed, some weren't, or it would have been a very short game.

The reason I bring all this up is that these points need clarification in the script.  If I missed something, I'm very interested. 
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: FuSoYa on June 27, 2020, 03:47:07 am
I don't know the mechanics of the game, but I don't believe there's any mathematical change in the Sword's power despite this happening.  However, restoring the Sword by having it resonating with the Seeds may still be a different problem than sealing them.

As far as the SNES game mechanics go, each mana seed you get increases the damage output of all your weapons by increasing a hidden counter.  Though when all the seeds get unsealed and your mana power on the status screen drops to 0, they do not reduce the counter to weaken your weapons.

I sometimes wonder if they had considered doing that, but perhaps they decided that reducing your weapon damage by about 40% or so before throwing you into pure land would maybe be a bit too cruel.

In any case, there would be a slight increase in weapon damage after the Mana Tree scene simply because the 8th seed gets revived along with the rest.  Before that point the counter is sitting at 7, and it gets set to 8 after.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on June 28, 2020, 02:22:53 am
As far as the SNES game mechanics go, each mana seed you get increases the damage output of all your weapons by increasing a hidden counter.  Though when all the seeds get unsealed and your mana power on the status screen drops to 0, they do not reduce the counter to weaken your weapons.

I sometimes wonder if they had considered doing that, but perhaps they decided that reducing your weapon damage by about 40% or so before throwing you into pure land would maybe be a bit too cruel.

In any case, there would be a slight increase in weapon damage after the Mana Tree scene simply because the 8th seed gets revived along with the rest.  Before that point the counter is sitting at 7, and it gets set to 8 after.

That is interesting, and may support my theory that powering the Sword and sealing the Seed are both the result of the same action.

Btw, FuSoYa, I'd be honored if you wanted to read over the new script. 

July 01, 2020, 07:23:59 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@Queue, since you're saving space in your inbox, I'll give you the massive update here:

1)The huge news is that Secret of Mana is finally retranslated, in full, as of Sunday.  Our script takes up about 80% more space than the SNES script without any new content.  The first thing folks will notice is how much longer it takes to get through the game simply due to reading.  Once Taosenai and myself have a chance to talk about some minor issues, the second draft will be complete, with future drafts constructed mostly after external feedback. 

2)Text formatting---I will go through and format choices one per line as you indicated. 

I have indicated line breaks with \, and it will probably require a full playthrough (or can we write a program to preview a given box?) to catch discrepancies between the way Google Sheets formats texts with extra space and how it appears in the game.  Also of concern are times where the character names are in the text box.  Woolsey seems to have avoided this for the most part, because I'd imagine that the different lengths would affect how the text is aligned.   

On my first test run, I actually got caught in an infinite loop at the Water Palace as the game could not parse one of the choices, which had migrated outside the box due to space.  (Strangely, not even a walk through walls code got me out of it.  The flag to take you out of the Palace is strangely deactivated even though there's no way to get to the door.) 

At this point, there are so many differences between the SAP, Woolsey, and the original Japanese as far as where text starts and stops, that more manual input will be needed than originally expected.  (I'm fine with that)

3)I will likely have to write a separate script for the VWF.  Even though we can use the same line breaks, there are so many ellipses with the original font that it wouldn't show up right.  Furthermore, some text has been broken across boxes for dramatic purposes and I'd like to retain that with the VWF.  As of now, I have not located a way to preview this text.

4)Tentative name for the patch---Secret of Mana: Reborn.

5)I went ahead and took a look at the menu text, names, and event messages.  The menu text was cut to bare bones in the SNES version as you can imagine.  If we accommodate the translation, we'd have to use a different font, move the text around the screen, or widen the box. 

It's a similar story with names and event messages.  I have not gone over these with Taosenai yet, but once they're finalized, we can decide what to do.  The menu text is the least of my concerns.  I'm sure that existing hacks just use the VWF, but I don't think this was the case with menu text, and obviously, we'd like to use the original font throughout when that option is chosen.

6)Did you receive the proposal for Phase 3?  There will be more things coming from the Japanese guides, but that will give me an idea of what we can do as far as new stuff.

7)Regarding my message about box memory size, I don't know how there could be possibly be 85 bytes in the box, as I demonstrated in the one below that there can be a maximum of 84.  The spreadsheet column width was set so that a maxmimum of 84 bytes can be entered, while also taking the length of individual words into account. 

8)I'd like to get the chainsaw back for the second Scorpion Army boss, otherwise, it's not much of a, "death machine."  I think Timbo did this in his hack? 

9)While deciding whether to stick with GP or switch to Luc, would it be an issue having the extra letter anywhere GP is currently displayed? 

10)I decided on what to do about the sprite's gender: https://manaredux.blogspot.com/2020/06/what-is-popoie.html, and I ironed out what I'm going do about post #31.  Those were our two biggest translation issues.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Queue on July 02, 2020, 01:50:46 am
1) Yay!



2) The integration script currently understands \ and | characters, which force a newline, and a new paragraph (textbox), respectively. It also accepts _ (underscores) for forced literal spaces (like if you want a lot of leading spaces to center some text), otherwise it generally compacts multiple subsequent spaces down to 1. These are meant for stylistic line breaks, so I don't expect you'll actually need many.

If some text is formatting unexpectedly, like a new speaker not getting a new textbox, that's a bug in the integration script (probably) that should get resolved (I just need to know about it to be able to resolve it). In general, it's on me to work out remaining kinks that prevent the integration script from matching the Google Docs text, since Google Docs, with the monospaced cells and intentional cell width, should be counting characters accurately and so matching it should be both possible and reasonable.

Player names won't be a problem (as long as the SAP text has them padded to 6 characters). All newlines in the SAP game data are explicit, none occur due to character overflow for a line (unlike vanilla). Described another way, in SAP I disable word wrap (which vanilla used to save a few dozen bytes) and every line requires an intentional newline character; the integration script counts characters and places these explicit newlines.

I haven't inspected the issue that got you stuck, but based on where you described it happening, I'd expect it's the combination of incomplete text choice parsing plus a rather complex event chain. Getting the text choices formatted and parse-able (and the integration script updated to not try and skip the currently un-parse-able choices) will hopefully resolve it, but I'll also check it out specifically.



3) Again, word wrap is currently off, so if combined with a VWF as-is, you'd have the same linebreaks and textboxes, you'd just have a fair bit more empty space on the right in every textbox. Obviously this isn't the visually desired result, and wastes part of the purpose of a VWF, but ellipses would still end and begin textboxes. A visual example:
Monospaced:
Code: [Select]
Just yesterday, one of our
citizens...
Code: [Select]
...saw a white dragon and a
giant snake fighting in the
northern cave!
VWF:
Quote
Just yesterday, one of our
citizens...
Quote
...saw a white dragon and a
giant snake fighting in the
northern cave!
The line breaks occur at the same spots, the VWF text is just scrunched to the left. In this specific example, I'm not sure anything would even be changed unless a drastically narrower font is used for the VWF.

It will take a fairly different parsing scheme (counting pixels instead of characters) or tons of manual human labor (disable the integration script placing newlines and having them all hand-placed) AND a re-write to move ellipses to make good use of a VWF.

I still don't have any options for previewing VWF text layout either.



4) The naming is your call; I basically wouldn't revolt unless you picked something heinous. I'm honestly not sure my first reaction to "Reborn" is to think "Retranslation" but I don't dislike it.



5) Menus (like, character naming, stats screen, ACT, controller settings; any of the full screen menus with the scrolling tree background) actually use the same font as the rest of the game, just horizontally compressed (not technically, but the details don't matter) so they can fit twice as many characters, and without a black border (which is what makes them look so different). Like the rest of the game though, the text is monospaced, tile-aligned, and even the VWF Edition patch doesn't make the menus VWF-capable.

I do agree that that's lower priority though.

Item and equipment names have some non-obvious length limits, above which they break various UIs in varying ways (the weapon upgrade when forging at Watts, for example). I don't remember them off the top of my head.



6) It took a moment to realize what you meant regarding a proposal. I had not, but I have now. I'll read it and get back to you. I've read it, see the edit at the end of this post.



7) The text "eats" a space when it wraps down a line, so while you get 28 characters per line, edge to edge, the space between line 1 and 2, and the space between line 2 and 3 are effectively free, yet still count for the used byte count (so 86 maximum, 28+1+28+1+28).



8) I restored chainsaw Kettle Kin; Timbo asked to use it in Relocalized (or I offered it? I don't remember anymore). Of course it can be in SAP too.



9) Some of the places it shows GP, 2 characters is the maximum barring significant reprogramming. A single letter (e.g. L) is the most reasonable replacement in my opinion; a custom glyph to act as a currency symbol isn't an impossible request, though if you do want to go that route I'd need to look over the font and actually set out a plan to make it work.



10) That was a good read and I really like what you ultimately decided. Not going with an all or nothing approach is probably my favorite way I've seen anyone answer that question.

To add to your anecdotes, the first time I played SoM, I named the sprite after my mom because he had a hairdo like she'd had when I was a kid (big and puffy, it was an unfortunate decade for style). I generally thought of him as a mischievous boy after having actually played through, though.




Regarding Phase 3 Proposals:

Module #1 - completely doable, and honestly should be quite easy... I'm having to restrain myself from just setting it up and instead using this time to finish the comparison screenshots -_-

Module #2 - more difficult than #1: I need to replace a door with an event trigger, and pick an event flag to keep track of the new event having been seen once; alternatively, if the normal event forces you outside (rather than you leaving yourself), it can simply be a continuation of the normal event which would avoid any of that

Module #3 - event-wise this isn't too tough, but adding the new NPC to that room may be difficult (it may not be, it depends on what is available to be relocated)

Module #4 - should be possible; the animations will probably just be a lot of trial and error

Module #5 - like #2, it depends on if you want the player to walk the characters outside to trigger this event, or if it can be part of the normal event and just forces the characters outside to show the new content

Module #6 - a lot of possible options; adding NPCs outright is tough, they pretty much always need to be stolen from some other map. Northtown outdoors is already at the NPC limit of 9, so if you wanted them outdoors, they'd have to replace existing NPCs. if indoors, what might make sense is for existing resistance members to say the new lines at certain points in the game, and then their normal lines at a different time. I'll talk about the door after this list

Module #7 - should be easy; hard part will be picking an event flag to keep track of if you've already seen the line

Module #8 - as mentioned before, chainsaw Kettle Kin was my doing, so can already consider this as done; it's worth noting that I'm 99% sure this wasn't some act of censorship, but part of the messy effort to make space in the ROM (and most, if not all, space-making efforts were actually unnecessary, but hindsight is 20/20)



The infamous door can be made usable, but understand that setting it up would be more work than all the other event requests listed above put together:
it requires
- reshaping the map so it's reachable
- replacing it with a door that has a trigger tile (it's currently no different than a wall)
- replacing the unwalkable floor to its right
- setting up door data
- wedging the new door into that map's trigger list
- fixing up the trigger list for another map that uses the same map piece
- picking an unused room (probably in one of the northtown interiors) to have the door send you to
- moving 1 or more NPCs to the new room
- modifying events to use the new text

All of the map editing steps listed there are extremely labor intensive. It's something I'm interested in trying to pull off, but this would definitely be the last of the proposed ideas I'd work on.




Here's a ZIP of all comparison screenshots for text you highlighted. These aren't sorted, stitched together, etc. they're just straight from the three variations. The Shade text is a slightly older version of his text.
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_SAP_Screenshots_Unsorted.zip (https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_SAP_Screenshots_Unsorted.zip)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: nosynose on July 03, 2020, 02:40:35 am
@manaredux
Awesome progression! Can't wait to play SoM with this!
Regarding the project new name, I suggest 'Rebirth' instead of 'Reborn', which sounds better to me, or 'SAPling' (which refers to the initial project name, the new take on the translation, and also to the mana tree)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Thanatos-Zero on July 03, 2020, 03:02:13 pm
I recommend to speak with Moppo on Discord, there are many things he and the others discovered.
Also there are many QoL patches around, which he combined with the randomiser.

But in a nutshell, if you join hands with him, things will be even more smooth as a end result.

As for the Mana Seeds increasing your strenght, that is a global event, which empowers the enemies' attack stat as well.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on July 03, 2020, 07:04:10 pm
- replacing it with a door that has a trigger tile (it's currently no different than a wall)
- replacing the unwalkable floor to its right

I think that removing, or not including whatever room was intended was an absolute last minute change, along with the animated overhead map object.  The fact that there are no collision tiles in front of the door, but there are to the right of it, leads me to believe that it had more to do with that than the door itself:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HSCTL3rQy4I/V6qlGYeddUI/AAAAAAAAAPE/LbaN61RDVBsBdMgxV_I4n0h1xgWotEjYQCLcB/s320/NorthtownCollisions.png)

It's analogous to an area in Tasnica:

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BimRW4WXDJw/V6qkRFUnLPI/AAAAAAAAAO8/6BRZ_SczsrEJC8-44zmZUqEVaFrvqpMTQCLcB/s320/Secret%2Bof%2BMana%2B%2528USA%2529_00339.png)

where it seems like you can walk under a railing, but it's blocked with random objects.  I think this was a feature that they couldn't get to work, or ran out of time for.  With the space to the right of the door already programmed, they thought they could include the room and just have collision tiles there so you don't think you could walk under the railing, but then for whatever reason, just took out the room altogether.  I found it extremely amusing that they left this in for the remake. 

If we did put a room there, the way to reach it would be to remove the collision tile on the stairs.  IIRC, you can exit the area, but not enter from the stairwell.  However, if it had made it into the final game, I'm sure you would have walked from underneath the railing. 
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: FuSoYa on July 05, 2020, 02:29:46 am
Btw, FuSoYa, I'd be honored if you wanted to read over the new script.

Er, sure.  Probably not much I can offer in the way of input, but I am a bit curious to see what you've done with it.  I've actually come across your Mana blog site before and always found it an interesting read...  have always had a bit of a soft spot for Secret of Mana.   :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: artflue on July 13, 2020, 08:06:35 am
Wow! A -lot- of thought went into adding back the lore into the Augmented script. This one I'm genuinely looking forward to reading.


Quote
I have a hard time reconciling the previous two lines.  On one hand, you seal each Seed with the Mana Sword, but on the other, they can be dissolved with no hope of you reviving them.

My memory of game 1 and 2 script details is flaky. But it sounds like the Empire and the Mana protectors are all acting on theory. No one has tried or done it, just doing actions from alleged religion, philosophy, mythology about the Hidden Land and the Seeds. It's been way too long (?) between 1 and 2 so everything is kinda forgotten and muddied up down the verbal lore inheritance.

Only towards the end do both sides get a grasp and figure out the important pieces of the grand puzzle. Desperation for one side and knowledge / power by the other.

And maybe it depends on the user. The good users want to protect, preserve the life in the Seed by sealing and limiting access. The bad users want to absorb the Seeds dry and leave nothing but it to wither until nature generates new Seeds to correct the unbalance.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on July 13, 2020, 11:32:48 am
Wow! A -lot- of thought went into adding back the lore into the Augmented script. This one I'm genuinely looking forward to reading.

My memory of game 1 and 2 script details is flaky. But it sounds like the Empire and the Mana protectors are all acting on theory. No one has tried or done it, just doing actions from alleged religion, philosophy, mythology about the Hidden Land and the Seeds. It's been way too long (?) between 1 and 2 so everything is kinda forgotten and muddied up down the verbal lore inheritance.

Only towards the end do both sides get a grasp and figure out the important pieces of the grand puzzle. Desperation for one side and knowledge / power by the other.

And maybe it depends on the user. The good users want to protect, preserve the life in the Seed by sealing and limiting access. The bad users want to absorb the Seeds dry and leave nothing but it to wither until nature generates new Seeds to correct the unbalance.

You bring up an interesting point.  One of the things we uncovered in Japanese sources was that the Emperor started the contract with Mavolia thing solely to win the war against Tasnica and Pandora 15 years prior.  This goes along with the "bad users" wanting to use the Mana Seeds as a result of evil in their hearts...or whatever.  We also discovered some things about Mavolia in the Japanese guide for the remake.  Mavolia is not explained well in SD2 or SoM.  Some of this stuff was cut from the 2018 remake, and we added it to Shade's speech:

Code: [Select]
SHADE:I am Shade, the elemental of darkness and f'rm'r king of the und'rw'rld, eke known as Mavolia. I did cause the w'rld to trembleth in fear.

RANDI:Mavolia? What kind of powers does the underworld have?

SHADE:Mavolia exists due to the chains of ang'r, envy, resentment and negative feelings towards oth'rs. There, pow'r is life. It is proclaimed that those with strength ruleth the weak. Indeed: Ang'r, envy, resentment...

These negative emotions art what feedeth the subjugation of less'r beings and they tempeth humans into defiling their souls with darkness. At which hour a human maketh a contract with Mavolia, those humans gain the pow'r they seek in exchange f'r their pure heart. Anon, they're in the darkness and doth not wish f'r tranquility. They may resideth in the human realm, but their p'rson is reclaim'd by the un'rw'rld. Alas, mine own pow'rs w're seal'd hence by h'roes in the Ancient past. But you lot, who is't defeat'd the incarnation of this pow'r must be the new h'roes. In acc'rdance with the laws of Mavolia, my powers art bestow'd upon all of thee!

As for the original problem, after much discussion, we all agreed that sealing the Mana Seeds and powering the Mana Sword happen simultaneously.  Basically, Randi reseals the Seeds, and then the Empire went back and unsealed them.  That's the best explanation as to why Luka's in prison at the end.  It's hinted at in the Japanese script, but like many things, did not find its way into English.  All of the dialogue surrounding this concept was fleshed out to make the point clearer.  This is the Emperor's new speech in the Tree Palace:

Code: [Select]
EMPEROR:Kukuku...I thought it was about time you got here. But, no one will get in my way! If all those seals you spent so much time on were dissolved, the Ancient continent would be "sunken" no more! So we went ahead and did just that! While you were strolling about the globe, we made our own sort of offering at the Palaces. Your quest is in vain! But actually, there is one seal left that you didn't even get to---the one right here at the Tree Palace! Once we dissolve it, the continent will surface and the Mana Fortress will be resurrected! I regret that I won't be able to show it to you. Kukuku...
This is the more literal translation:

Code: [Select]
Ku ku ku, I expected that you would arrive soon. However, I won't allow you to stand in my way! If the seals on the Temples throughout the world are dissolved, what has until now been called the "sunken" ancient continent will rise to the surface! Already, the seals on the temples throughout the world have been undone. The last one is here. With this, the Mana Fortress will be resurrected! It's a shame that you won't be able to see it. Ku ku ku...
Compare with Woolsey:

Code: [Select]
EMPEROR:So glad to see you! You're going to like this. The ancient continent will surface once I've broken all the palace seals. Once I break this last seal, the Mana Fortress will rise! Too bad you won't be around!
and the 2018 remake:

Code: [Select]
Right on schedule. I thought you'd turn up. The ancient continent will surface once I've broken all the palace seals throughout the world. This is the last one. With this, the Mana Fortress will rise again! Too bad you won't be around to savor the sight.
While I'm at it, we consulted scores of Japanese promotional materials that came out well before release.  One of them indicates that the Emperor died during the war, was somehow resurrected, and the citizens of the Empire could not figure out how this was possible.  The answer of course, is that Serin killed him but he had the power of Mavolia, which is briefly explained in Japanese but totally left out of both English versions. 
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: artflue on July 13, 2020, 01:46:04 pm
Your rewrite is well thought out! Refreshing to read the updated lines. Comes off more as poetry now. :)

Just that small new information expands new horizons on what's going on behind.

With all the information your group can uncover, it'd almost make sense to have a "novelization" of some sort covering all the material. That'd be hours of worthy reading.



Quote
One of the things we uncovered in Japanese sources was that the Emperor started the contract with Mavolia thing solely to win the war against Tasnica and Pandora 15 years prior.  This goes along with the "bad users" wanting to use the Mana Seeds as a result of evil in their hearts...or whatever.

Sounds like the Emperor got frustrated and hit a solid roadblock in the war? Once he learned about Mavolia, he had a shiny new toy to use. Got over-obsessed with what he could do with it and naturally got greedy and wanted more. Once that black stain got in, it won't come out. Was he originally that evil before the tainting? I'm not sure.


Quote
As for the original problem, after much discussion, we all agreed that sealing the Mana Seeds and powering the Mana Sword happen simultaneously.  Basically, Randi reseals the Seeds, and then the Empire went back and unsealed them.  That's the best explanation as to why Luka's in prison at the end.  It's hinted at in the Japanese script, but like many things, did not find its way into English.

...

So we went ahead and did just that! While you were strolling about the globe, we made our own sort of offering at the Palaces.

It flows so naturally logical it'd be hard to argue against.



Did the Emperor take his time undoing the seals again in a more "proper", "iron-clad" way? Like in a stealthy, not obvious way to grab attention.

Or did they use military tactics and just "ambush" all the sites at once towards the end to avoid another tug-of-war with the heroes? I'm assuming at that time the Mana Knights maybe had such a narrow focus and were "over-confident" by their earlier victories. A "sleight of hand" by the Emperor in case "Plan A" failed.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on July 14, 2020, 09:34:31 am
Your rewrite is well thought out! Refreshing to read the updated lines. Comes off more as poetry now. :)

Just that small new information expands new horizons on what's going on behind.

With all the information your group can uncover, it'd almost make sense to have a "novelization" of some sort covering all the material. That'd be hours of worthy reading.

Thank you.  Shade's speech is a combination of the original, information from the remake's Japanese strategy guide and a rework of deleted lines run through the Elizabethan English translator, rewritten endless times.  On the Super Famicom, he sounds old as he uses some Classical Japanese patterns.  Sentences ending with なり are a dead giveaway for that.

Quote
Sounds like the Emperor got frustrated and hit a solid roadblock in the war? Once he learned about Mavolia, he had a shiny new toy to use. Got over-obsessed with what he could do with it and naturally got greedy and wanted more. Once that black stain got in, it won't come out. Was he originally that evil before the tainting? I'm not sure.

We had the same question and searched in vain to find the answer.  The original motivation of the war is unknown. 

Quote
Did the Emperor take his time undoing the seals again in a more "proper", "iron-clad" way? Like in a stealthy, not obvious way to grab attention.

Or did they use military tactics and just "ambush" all the sites at once towards the end to avoid another tug-of-war with the heroes? I'm assuming at that time the Mana Knights maybe had such a narrow focus and were "over-confident" by their earlier victories. A "sleight of hand" by the Emperor in case "Plan A" failed.

This is another question with hardly anything in the way of an answer.  This is what Luka says in our version after they come back to the Water Palace:

Code: [Select]
LUKA:Whew, I've really had a rough time! Such incredible effrontery! Some of the Empire's cronies came here, locked me up, and dissolved the seal on the Mana Seed...again! The seals on the Mana Seeds can not be broken if thou wish to restore the Sword! I'm not sure what can be done as I don't know any other way to restore it. And I shudder to think what will happen if the Fortress returns and the Sword is not powerful enough to defeat it. I guess there's nothing left to do but wait for a miracle. Also, POPOIE, thou shouldst check in on your grandfather! They must have gone back to the Wind Palace too...
Compare to the Super Famicom:

Code: [Select]
LUKA:Whew, I've really had a rough time! Such unbelievable insolence! Some of the Empire's cronies came here, locked me up in here, and undid the seal on the Mana Seed. If the seals on the Mana Seeds are all dissolved before you can revive the Mana Sword, I don't know that we'd be able to do anything. There'd be nothing left to do but wait for a miracle...
Ironically, the SNES and 2018 version are clearer than the original.  I don't think there'd be a huge amount of resistance from Luka, so this was likely an easy task.  I expanded her speech because "I don't know that we'd be able to do anything" is a vague reference to what we discussed about the Mana Seeds earlier.  I also inserted a reference to Popoie's grandfather, because he is the only other one who inhabits a Palace.  The rest are deserted, so if the Empire went back and unsealed everything, he certainly would have been involved.  If they have not returned to the Wind Palace, we added this exchange:

Code: [Select]
POPOIE:Gramps! I’m so glad to see you’re all right!
GRANDPA:Yes, chibi. They came to break your seal, but this time, I sensed that they were coming and hid out in the woods. Now go, restore Mana!

It's a necessary invention because otherwise, he makes no reference to these events.  I'm certain that this mass unsealing would have been more than just a hint had the game been realized as intended.  It's possible that this is where Fanha's role was supposed to be.  In Japanese, it is clear from how she talks to Randi that she really does not like him specifically, almost to the point of obsession.  Considering that the characters have no history with her, who knows why she was supposed to feel this way?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: knderia on July 14, 2020, 12:51:14 pm
Would it be possible to insert extra NPCs or in-game books, diaries that add all the interesting fun details you uncovered that didn't make the script?


My guess with Fanha would be .. maybe strong desire to bring back the sunken continent? Since the heroes have the exact opposite goal, she'd hate them just from any hearsay alone.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: azidahaka on July 14, 2020, 02:34:55 pm
...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: hmsong on July 14, 2020, 09:35:12 pm
Oh wow, I did not know this thread existed.  Now I know.  I'm really looking forward to this.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on July 15, 2020, 10:14:08 am
Would it be possible to insert extra NPCs or in-game books, diaries that add all the interesting fun details you uncovered that didn't make the script?

Everything found was worked into the script. :)

EDIT: I partially misread what you wrote, and also want to clarify.  I mean extra NPCs/events are part of the script in my eyes, and a lot of that is where this extra information is going.  There is a lot that isn't super relevant to the plot that I'm not including.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: binarck on July 15, 2020, 11:35:15 am
Is there a chance to ask the remake devs some of these lingering questions for more insight? Without tipping them off to what you're doing of course.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: lexluthermiester on July 22, 2020, 09:51:04 pm
This looks like a promising project!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Queue on August 24, 2020, 05:39:29 pm
Despite the silence, work on this has been pretty heavy the entire past month. Anyway, I needed someplace to write about some SoM cut content so putting it here!



The Matango Caves Pit Trap

First off, here are a couple pictures:
(https://i.imgur.com/PqF3D2G.png) (https://i.imgur.com/ViJlDN9.png)

The left image is the upper right corner of map 321, the right image is the upper right corner of map 320.

The yellow square (right image) is the destination of unused door 0x16A. Map 321 has door 0x16A as a tile-linked event for tile 0xBF. This tile is never actually used on map 321.

Map 321 is primarily composed of map pieces 321 and 322 (this is a coincidence that its map and piece number are 321: they don't often match up like that). Map piece 326 is the cleared stalagmites (on map 321). The map pieces in between, 323-325, appear to be unfinished variations on that pit in the left image above, possibly representing ground sliding in or out of place.

There don't appear to be any events linked to these and almost certainly it was never totally functional. Actually making it functional would be rather tricky, with probably a minimum of a map piece added to map 321's piece list, changing the tile-linked event from door 0x16A to an event (where the event itself uses door 0x16A), and choosing an event flag to track the state of the trap and to control visibility of the new map piece. Oh, and editing map pieces, which is, um, tough.

(Numbering is by somedit standards to make it easy to look up, so map numbers and map pieces are decimal, door number is hexadecimal, etc.)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on August 24, 2020, 11:48:34 pm
I discussed this with a few folks awhile back, but I had no idea that there was an unused door on the next level down.  FWIW, the next level up is this:

(https://i.imgur.com/wx5XAlT.png)

From all the things you mentioned above, it seems that there was some intricate plan that was abandoned.  Who knows...

Remind me: are those stairs coded?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Queue on August 25, 2020, 12:53:33 am
Neither staircase end at each pit is functional: not only do the stairs lack trigger tiles, but there aren't doors that go to either as a destination.

There is a pair of unused doors, 0x156 and 0x157 that imply a removed staircase between maps 320 and 321, but based on those door destinations, it was bottom center on both maps and would've likely been accessible in the small interconnect cave between near the cannon travel and the Matango entrance (as opposed to how most of the caves link the backdoor of Matango to the serpent boss).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: lexluthermiester on September 01, 2020, 01:31:54 am
There is so much that was cut out of the game when the SNESCD was canceled that it is not at all surprising that these and many other things were left in as remnants of what once was...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on November 18, 2020, 05:27:36 pm
Secret of Mana: Reborn is the first release of the SAP, and should be available shortly, along with a huge commentary. 

Work already began in July on the next release, a more traditional retranslation with no additions and the original Japanese names (purists rejoice!).  I actually have very little to do with this as it's primarily in the hands of Taosenai, and I have other projects to move onto.  The script is about 15% complete, and further work has been done on software tools and planning. 

Also in the pipeline is a release with an improved font and text box (like FuSoYa's patch).  This was supposed to be a main feature of the current release, but we ran into too many obstacles, and the original font works well enough for a first try. 

Some more screens from SoM: Reborn...

(https://i.imgur.com/suTBFCB.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/DrWBY7c.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/IQacXwu.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/3CBqOVX.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/khQmwDE.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/fERI2nx.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/CQuUGgn.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/qWVxcvB.png)

Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: lexluthermiester on November 19, 2020, 02:31:37 am
It would seem that this project is not compatible with the 9-item patch. Is there a chance of integrating it in an update? Or perhaps making a version that would be compatible?

By way of bug report: In Potos village just after you beat Mantis Ant and the knight is talking about the water palace, he refers to Luka but the word "Sage" is instead something else. Looks like a spelling error.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on November 19, 2020, 03:06:36 am
By way of bug report: In Potos village just after you beat Mantis Ant and the knight is talking about the water palace, he refers to Luka but the word "Sage" is instead something else. Looks like a spelling error.

It's Luka's full name.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Dzumeister on November 19, 2020, 03:09:38 am
Thank you so much for including the commentary, being able to read the revisions made with the original localization is great! The new script reads more literally, though--it really reminds me of kWhazit's Chrono Trigger translation from years back. I like the longer dialogue, but some of it reads unnatural coming from some of the characters. I have to say, though, the way Shade talks is really cool, and Luka reminds me of Frog from Woolsey's Chrono Trigger script. I'm reading through the provided notes and I'll post any typos or mistakes I find here.

---
Quote from: 1684
JEMA:The hour is at
hand! The time has
come for you to soar to
the Mana Fortress.
Every foe you have
encountered, every
ordeal you have endured
has prepared you for
this moment. Who
knows what you will
face, but you must never
waiver, brave knight of
the Mana Sword!
waiver should be waver

Quote from: 1596
RANDI:Mom...I...my
mom, .........
unnecessary comma

Quote from: 1618
DYLUCK:Uhh...ooh...where am I...? , ...
unnecessary comma

Quote from: 1593
...but we finally met!
After everything, we
were finally able to
meet, but, Answer me,
please! ...
Answer doesn't need to be capitalized here

Quote from: 1585
Women of our clan,
having borne future
generations, have it as
their fate to become the
Mana Tree like me, and
continue to watch over
the world...
I think birthed is the more correct term over borne, as borne is more commonly used to describe carrying instead (source (https://www.englishgrammar.org/born-or-borne/),source (https://www.grammarly.com/blog/borne-born/))

Quote from: 1548
RANDI:Wow! There's
a shield around it! Let's
get out of here for now!
I think barrier would make more sense here than shield

Quote from: 1512
RANDIX:Woah! We're
deep in the Mana
Fortress...And...
Geshtar! You survived!?
Not sure if this typo is in the game or not, but RANDI is misspelled

Quote from: 1503
RANDI:We? There's
someone else?
We should be in quotes here, like in the Woolsey script:
Quote
RANDI:"We?" Who
else is here?

Quote from: 1484
We've appropriated a
secret code from the
enemy. “Red-Blue-Yellow-Green.” ...what
could it mean?
This one's just my opinion, but even if Woolsey's script makes the same reference, I think "ABXY" should be used here, particularly since American players have the purple/lavender buttons as opposed to the Super Famicom colors.

Quote from: 1475
FANHA:I see you've
come. Well, this time,
you will suffocate...like
this...!
It seems that your notes contradict yourself here. You say that "there is no direct history between [Randi and Fahna]", but the dialogue seems to imply that they really have met before. The original J you included seems to work better:
Quote from: FANHA
“Allow me the honor
of choking the life out of
you. Prepare for your
end…”

Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Queue on November 19, 2020, 03:18:48 am
Quote from: lexluthermiester
It would seem that this project is not compatible with the 9-item patch. Is there a chance of integrating it in an update? Or perhaps making a version that would be compatible?
While I didn't literally try applying the 9-item limit patch, I double-checked its changes versus what Reborn changes and there should be no conflict. What went wrong?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: lexluthermiester on November 19, 2020, 04:33:11 am
While I didn't literally try applying the 9-item limit patch, I double-checked its changes versus what Reborn changes and there should be no conflict. What went wrong?
I do beg your pardon, it does work! I had just lost track of how many items I had collected. Sorry about that!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on November 19, 2020, 07:12:17 am
Dzumeister, thank you for letting me know about mistakes so quickly!  There is already a hotfix in the works; I was playing through and noticed an error on another line (from the Resistance base---"us, the Resistance" should be "our Resistance") and some other minor things, and now you've brought more stuff to my attention. 

I will let you know that the commentary was an extremely tedious process, and it's a miracle there's not many times the number of errors that are still there.  Most of the mistakes you've pointed out are transcription errors between how the line is in the patch memory and how it made it into the word processor.

Quote
waiver should be waver

This is wrong in game and in the commentary.

The unnecessary commas and capitals are a commentary only issue. 

Quote
Not sure if this typo is in the game or not, but RANDI is misspelled

This is commentary only.  In the patch, Randi's name is always RANDIX to account for the extra byte.

Quote
We should be in quotes here, like in the Woolsey script:

You're right.  Especially since we did it that way on another line.

Quote
It seems that your notes contradict yourself here. You say that "there is no direct history between [Randi and Fahna]", but the dialogue seems to imply that they really have met before.

The note is on the sentiment of her dialogue overall, despite the two not having any direct confrontations prior.  That line might be part of it---"this time" may refer to lost content, or it could just refer to the general confrontations between Randi and the bodyguards.

Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Guadozoku on November 19, 2020, 09:07:52 am
Let's see how much willpower you have. Did you manage to resist the temptation to make a joke about Paul Manafort in the Mana Fortress?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on November 19, 2020, 10:01:13 am

The new script reads more literally, though--it really reminds me of kWhazit's Chrono Trigger translation from years back. I like the longer dialogue, but some of it reads unnatural coming from some of the characters.


I strongly urge you to play through the entire patch before making this assessment.  You may have a solid point, but things are best read in context.  One can only make action RPG dialogue from 1993 so "natural", while retaining all of the source's nuances, which was our main goal.  Even the 2018 remaster, which was written with voice acting in mind, had some interpretations that were not conversational.  It's just the nature of the script.

I'll also add that many of the characters were written to sound a certain way.  Timothy is somewhat awkward, Jema is written to sound more like a warrior, the Scorpion Army is written to sound over the top and absurd, you already mentioned Luka/Shade, etc.  Throughout the process, the game's dialogue came off theatrical and florid in places...but that's just how it is.

Let's see how much willpower you have. Did you manage to resist the temptation to make a joke about Paul Manafort in the Mana Fortress?

 :laugh:

I made plenty of jokes about Paul Manafort in the Mana Fortress.  I just didn't put any of them in the script.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: AdamDravian on November 19, 2020, 12:50:43 pm
I really appreciate that you shared the commentary pdf. Looking through it, I noticed the Sahagin is another monster taken directly from Dungeons & Dragons, though the actual spelling is Sahuagin.

I'm undecided on which version of your patch to use. I'd prefer the Japanese names, as I'm usually a purist. However, Secret of Mana is well-known for being a bit incomplete, so I'm curious to see the expanded content that your team pulled from various official sources.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Dzumeister on November 19, 2020, 04:40:25 pm
I strongly urge you to play through the entire patch before making this assessment.  You may have a solid point, but things are best read in context.  One can only make action RPG dialogue from 1993 so "natural", while retaining all of the source's nuances, which was our main goal.  Even the 2018 remaster, which was written with voice acting in mind, had some interpretations that were not conversational.  It's just the nature of the script.

I'll also add that many of the characters were written to sound a certain way.  Timothy is somewhat awkward, Jema is written to sound more like a warrior, the Scorpion Army is written to sound over the top and absurd, you already mentioned Luka/Shade, etc.  Throughout the process, the game's dialogue came off theatrical and florid in places...but that's just how it is.

I'd prefer to read through the notes you provided, as another playthrough of this game doesn't sound that appealing to me right at this time :P I did start a new game though, just to see how things would look, and it didn't really change my mind. Actually, it kind of was the opening moments that reconfirmed my feelings on it. You do mention that "less is more", and I agree--Woolsey manages to keep a surprising amount of depth when compared side-by-side to your script, and in a lot of cases, I feel like it works well tonally. I respect the commitment to the original Japanese dialogue and bringing personality to characters that was previously unknown, though I still think it would benefit from editing.

Here's what I mean:
Quote from: 1652 - 1653 (SAP ver.)
RANDI:Yeah!
Something like that!
There's no way I can do
it!
I can't stand the
thought of never seeing
you again!
compared to Woolsey's original:
Quote from: 1652 (Woolsey ver.)
RANDI:Right...I can't
go through with this...
In fewer words, I think Woolsey's interpretation gives a more nuanced take on an emotional scene while still sounding relatable. The funny thing is, I prefer Reborn's line that immediately follows:

Quote from: 1654 (SAP ver.)
POPOIE:, Come on!
What are you even
saying!? It's not like I'm
gonna die!
(there is an unneeded comma after the colon though)

There's quite a few places in the script where I'm torn between the original localization and this newer take, and I think a compromise between the two might smooth over some of the weirdness.

---
Prologue - read-through

Quote from: 2
In Ancient times...
Civilizations that
evolved through the
power of Mana had
flourished across the
planet.
Ancient doesn't need to be capitalized (source - last paragraph concerning "ancient" (https://www.dailywritingtips.com/capitalization-rules-for-names-of-historical-periods-and-movements/))

Quote from: 4
Its arrogant might
touched the anger of the
gods, and they sent the
Mana Beast to the
Earth.
not sure if arrogant is the right adjective here. your notes mention "excessive", which works better, I think. maybe consider "domineering" or even "proud", or making reference to the humans instead:
Their arrogance sparked the anger of the gods, and they sent the Mana Beast to the Earth.

Quote from: 6
Then, a hero came with
the holy Mana Sword,
and the Fortress fell.
With that, the Mana
Beast vanished from the
sight of humanity.
From the notes in Japanese, it seems that you lose some of what happened. It describes the hero destroying the Fortress, but R's script makes it much more passive. Consider adapting some of the W:
Before all was lost, a hero bearing the holy Mana Sword destroyed the Fortress, and the Mana Beast disappeared.

It Begins - readthrough

Quote from: 10
ELLIOTT:RANDI, you
doofus! If you're
careless, we'll be found
out and the village Elder
will be angry yet again!
Awkward dialogue, consider:
RANDI, you doofus! If the Elder finds out we're here, we'll get in trouble again!

Quote from: 11
TIMOTHY:That's right.
According to village
rules, coming here is not
allowed! I heard there
was a ghost and stuff...
Awkward dialogue, consider:
You're right, we shouldn't be here. There's supposed to be a ghost in this forest...

Quote from: 12
ELLIOTT:Pfft, the
adults are the childish
ones, huh? They say
that because they think
if they scare us, we'll
stay away.
Awkward dialogue, consider adapting some of the W:
ELLIOT:Ha! Do you really believe that? The adults say that to keep us away.

Quote from: 13
But...grandma did say
that she saw a big light
shining near the
waterfall. Surely,
there's an incredible
treasure!
Consider adapting some of the W:
I heard grandma say that she saw something shiny by the falls. It's probably treasure!

Quote from: 14
TIMOTHY:Now let's
hurry and keep going!
Jarring transition, consider:
TIMOTHY: Ooh! Let's hurry and find it!

Quote from: 37
RANDI:Woah, a Rabite
in a place like this!
That's nuts!
I think the W version is cleaner

Quote from: 39
NO TRESPASSING IN
THE FOREST NEAR
TOPAZ FALLS
Elder of Potos Village
Maybe add a hyphen before the signature
NO TRESSPASSING IN TOPAZ FALLS FOREST
-Elder of Potos Village


Quote from: 41
You must not fall down now...
I know it's in the W version, but I don't think you need "down". It just sounds like you're just tripping or falling over, but leaving it as "fall" gives the gist like "falling in battle"

Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Viewer on November 19, 2020, 05:49:51 pm
At this point I feel it would help to reference a Secret of Mana Let's Play (https://lparchive.org/Secret-of-Mana/), because it does include some translation from the Japanese script "touched up". Make of it what you will; it's a good LP, anyway. Here's the translated opening, for example:

Quote
In a calamity,
people waited for a brave
with the sword.

The sword revealed the power
of its true nature to
retrieve the peace.

Excalibur, Kusanagi, and
all the other swords talked
in myth, legend, and saga...
People named those
swords in many ways.

But...
They all meant one thing.
The one and only...

The Sword of Mana.

In the faraway past...
Civilizations that evolved due to the power of Mana flourished on the planet.

Before long, humans began to use the power of Mana in warfare,
Birthing the colossal ship they called the Mana Fortress.

However, that mighty power drew the fury and anger of the gods,
and they sent their holy beast to ravage the earth.

The furious battle between fortress and beast ensnared the world in poison and flame,
And Mana began to rapidly disappear.

It was then, that a hero with the Holy Sword destroyed the Fortress,
and slayed the holy beast before the eyes of mankind.

Civilization was utterly obliterated due to warfare,
But the world had once again become peaceful...

Time flows on...

And history will repeat.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Dzumeister on November 19, 2020, 06:04:03 pm
At this point I feel it would help to reference a Secret of Mana Let's Play (https://lparchive.org/Secret-of-Mana/), because it does include some translation from the Japanese script "touched up". Make of it what you will; it's a good LP, anyway. Here's the translated opening, for example:

They literally reference this Let's Play in their PDF, if you'd check it out
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Viewer on November 19, 2020, 06:29:02 pm
They literally reference this Let's Play in their PDF, if you'd check it out

Fair enough, but what page is it on?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Dzumeister on November 19, 2020, 11:43:28 pm
Fair enough, but what page is it on?

The Preface on page 5, second paragraph:
Quote
We are aware of two external retranslations of the game. A spirited localization of the game’s essential script
was made by Reverend Cheddar for the 2011 LP Archive walkthrough. Also, kWhazit, of the Chrono Trigger
Retranslation Project, is many years into a total retranslation of the game text which at present is partially
complete.

A full list of sources is included as well, which you'll see if you open and read the PDF
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Viewer on November 20, 2020, 12:31:32 am
The Preface on page 5, second paragraph:
A full list of sources is included as well, which you'll see if you open and read the PDF

Very precise, thanks - but where is the PDF, please?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Dzumeister on November 20, 2020, 01:48:10 am
http://www.romhacking.net/translations/5765/

download the .zip and you should find it
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Viewer on November 20, 2020, 02:09:38 am
http://www.romhacking.net/translations/5765/

download the .zip and you should find it

Ah, thanks. It's very comprehensive.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: azidahaka on November 20, 2020, 09:51:44 am
CUT

Seems you do not have a good idea of the work behind this and its scope. It's a very long project that had multiple revisions and constant tinkering and corrections. And its main scope was to give a proper experience allowing to give all non Japanese speakers a real taste of the game. You must know that japanese is a language of nuances and they made a GIGANTIC work trying to save them. Not to make the most "palatable" version around.

Many of the changes you suggest would make the translation less accurate, and actually convey less information than the japanese version

Ex. you say that:
Quote from: 10
ELLIOTT:RANDI, you
doofus! If you're
careless, we'll be found
out and the village Elder
will be angry yet again!

you say it's Awkward and suggest:
RANDI, you doofus! If the Elder finds out we're here, we'll get in trouble again!

You could do that but you miss Nuances that they worked extra hard to convey from original script:
1. you lose the part about being careless
2. It has a shade of "elder gets always angry" at them or generally (yet again)


Again your critic about
TIMOTHY:That's right.
According to village
rules, coming here is not
allowed! I heard there
was a ghost and stuff...

you suggest:
You're right, we shouldn't be here. There's supposed to be a ghost in this forest...

you are missing content again:
1.there's rules about not going there
2. it's not like there's supposed to be a ghost there. It's more like a "rumor, say, legend" of the ghost and that they have a vague idea of that

can't you see all the nuances, details that are recovered? And they went this way recovering, retranslating fixing errors and even adding stuff from guides and remake...

I've been checking their work as insider since the beginning and i can assure that there's not a single line that wasn't re-evaluated multiple times by multiple users, translators, ecc ecc

That said there's a few things to fix or improve, but why would they "simplify the script" to make it m ore pleasant if it means substracting from the retranslation? Woolsey would have tried to keep the same accuracy if he didn't had weeks to translate and half the space allowed in use.

This said, it's not final release, and i would have preferred the Scorpion armies robots to be called Primus and Secundus instead of Alfie and Bettie (the second name sound femalish and makes harder to convey the japanese joke on the names), or i just noticed that in Matango screen above Son of Man would probably better than "child of man".

I'm sure criticism for improving some things are more than welcome, but changing parts trying to leave less meaning and stry from actual meaning seem to me frankly pointless.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Dzumeister on November 20, 2020, 02:53:49 pm
I definitely understand that my suggested edits are sacrificing accuracy and information, but I think when read aloud, the Reborn script has a lot of awkward instances that don't feel natural to English speakers. They take you out of the experience. Yes, Woolsey had to cut a lot of content, but he also knew his audience--the choices he made kept the spirit of the original while being concise, and it flowed well.

Quote
You could do that but you miss Nuances that they worked extra hard to convey from original script:
1. you lose the part about being careless
2. It has a shade of "elder gets always angry" at them or generally (yet again)
1. "careless" doesn't add much
2. You get that these kids are always getting into trouble with the Elder

Quote
you are missing content again:
1.there's rules about not going there
2. it's not like there's supposed to be a ghost there. It's more like a "rumor, say, legend" of the ghost and that they have a vague idea of that
1. You could change it so that Timothy says: "We're not allowed to be here." As you progress from this point, you find a sign that says being in the forest is forbidden by the Elder, so I didn't think much of it.
2. the definition I got for "supposed" through Google came up as "generally assumed or believed to be the case, but not necessarily so" (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=supposed). I thought this could have worked as shorthand for that idea

I understand that a patch like this isn't for a player like me. I don't want to overstep and insult the work of so many dedicated and passionate people, so I won't make any more suggestions. I genuinely want to help smooth over some of the script.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on November 20, 2020, 04:31:26 pm
I definitely understand that my suggested edits are sacrificing accuracy and information, but I think when read aloud, the Reborn script has a lot of awkward instances that don't feel natural to English speakers. They take you out of the experience. Yes, Woolsey had to cut a lot of content, but he also knew his audience--the choices he made kept the spirit of the original while being concise, and it flowed well.

...

I understand that a patch like this isn't for a player like me. I don't want to overstep and insult the work of so many dedicated and passionate people, so I won't make any more suggestions. I genuinely want to help smooth over some of the script.

I'm all for making the script more readable.  You mentioned kWhazit's Chrono Trigger retranslation...that was more literal (even retaining honorifics IIRC) than what we did here.  However, everyone has a different idea of what reads smoothly, and I think that giving into Woolsey nostalgia (which we obviously did ourselves at times), or working to please absolutely everyone defeats the massive amount of work then went into this project.  Seriously, I don't know if we could've assembled a better group of folks to consult with.  As stated previously, a script of this type will have lines that are theatrical or florid.

That being said, I went through the script and made over one hundred minor adjustments---adding contractions, removing redundancies, grammatical stuff, spacing, etc.  This update should be submitted soon.

The one thing for me is how much longer the game takes just from careful reading.  That was the one biggest feedback during playtesting, that the original script is surprisingly long for a fast paced action RPG and slows the game down.  For example, Luka and the Mana Tree have soooo much dialogue now, but that's how it was in the original.  The creators seemed to throw a huge amount of content at their speeches.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: CoolCatBomberMan on November 21, 2020, 02:38:38 am
Not a bad effort! All that's missing is a patch to fix the title screen. I didn't notice one looking through this site, but who knows? Maybe there's one floating around somewhere......
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on November 21, 2020, 02:56:17 pm
Not a bad effort! All that's missing is a patch to fix the title screen. I didn't notice one looking through this site, but who knows? Maybe there's one floating around somewhere......

You mean revert to the Japanese title screen? 
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: CoolCatBomberMan on November 21, 2020, 03:49:49 pm
You mean revert to the Japanese title screen?

Yeah, that's right.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Piotyr on November 22, 2020, 09:24:44 am
Can you stack this with the turbo mod?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Queue on November 22, 2020, 02:10:57 pm
Can you stack this with the turbo mod?
Not especially safely. If you try, you'd probably want to use Turbo first then patch this on top afterwards. That would disable any Turbo features that make changes to event data, but make game breaking patch conflicts less likely. Still a decent chance it won't go well, so good luck.

I'll be integrating Reborn into the Turbo project after we finish with this initial barrage of post-release updates. I'm working on getting Reborn v1.2 prepared and submitted as I write this.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on November 22, 2020, 03:11:08 pm
I'll be integrating Reborn into the Turbo project after we finish with this initial barrage of post-release updates. I'm working on getting Reborn v1.2 prepared and submitted as I write this.

Thanks Queue!

I'll be taking a break for a few days, but we've received some very solid feedback for the next version.

Quote
I really appreciate that you shared the commentary pdf. Looking through it, I noticed the Sahagin is another monster taken directly from Dungeons & Dragons, though the actual spelling is Sahuagin.

I'm undecided on which version of your patch to use. I'd prefer the Japanese names, as I'm usually a purist. However, Secret of Mana is well-known for being a bit incomplete, so I'm curious to see the expanded content that your team pulled from various official sources.

Thanks for pointing that out.  I'll include it in the next release.

A "pure" translation is important, and it's being worked on as we speak.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Masaru on November 25, 2020, 09:16:03 am
Not a bad effort! All that's missing is a patch to fix the title screen. I didn't notice one looking through this site, but who knows? Maybe there's one floating around somewhere......
That patch dosen't even exist, the only way to do it is patching it from the turbo program or rip the patch from there
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on November 25, 2020, 09:46:41 am
V1.3 has been posted; and V1.4 is right around the corner.  We've made over 300 edits since we launched last week.  There's too many things to mention here, but the script is in far better shape.  Most of it was fat trimming: over 1% of the text has been excised since V1.0. I am concentrating on Luka and Jema's dialogue right now. 

@dzumeister, the opening has been rewritten:

ELLIOTT:RANDI, you doofus! If you're careless, we'll be found out and the village Elder will be angry again!
TIMOTHY:That's right. According to village rules, coming here is not allowed! I heard there was a ghost and stuff...
ELLIOTT:Pfft, the adults are the childish ones, huh? They tell us that because they think it'll scare us and we'll stay away. But...grandma said she saw a big light shining near the waterfall. There must be some incredible treasure!
TIMOTHY:Now let's hurry and find it!

I also want to add that many of the punctuation errors you pointed out are commentary only.  I will have to find time to work on the commentary at a later date.

Quote
not sure if arrogant is the right adjective here. your notes mention "excessive", which works better, I think. maybe consider "domineering" or even "proud", or making reference to the humans instead:

You suggested: Their arrogance sparked the anger of the gods, and they sent the Mana Beast to the Earth.

Taosenai's original translation was, "Yet its excessive might was such as to draw the indignation of the gods. By their command, the Godbeast was dispatched to the earth." 

This obviously had to be cut down.  Your suggestion is a good one, but it's not just general arrogance, it's the fact that their creation was purely seeking power (hence might here) without regard for the consequences.  "Arrogance" was chosen over "excessive" as it accounts for the indignation.

I will make the change you suggested with the hero explicitly striking the fortress down.  For the record, Taosenai's translation:

"At that moment, the Fortress was struck down by a hero bearing the Holy Sword, and with it the Godbeast vanished from the sight of mankind."
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Memorex on November 25, 2020, 05:05:34 pm
Hi, the release of this project is like a dream come true. Been a fan of SoM since 1997, the gameplay, graphics, plot, music and the overall atmosphere in the game. Even today it still affects me just as much as it did back then. Maybe more.

Been following several attempts to retranslate SoM, only to see them get abandoned, and at one point I even gave it a try myself. With my limited hacking skills I managed to dump the french script from the remake(which had been inserted into the snes version)which supposedly follows the japanese script very closely. Using google translate and various french-english online dictionaries I then used SoM EDIT to update all the text up to meeting Watts in Gaias navel. By then I made some mistake which messed up the rom file, rendering it useless..  :-[

To finally see a proper retranslation like this being released feels totally surreal! I really hope for a VWF version as well, like others have said before me. And I look forward to eventually combining some verison of this with the various bugfixes and some of the modifications found in SoM Turbo!

As for mistakes and holes in the original script I dont mind seeing them corrected, but I'd personaly prefer that material based on an "extended universe" is kept to a minimum.  :) 

Though I havn't given it a try yet, I still want to say thanks!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Dzumeister on November 25, 2020, 08:29:23 pm
V1.3 has been posted; and V1.4 is right around the corner.  We've made over 300 edits since we launched last week.  There's too many things to mention here, but the script is in far better shape.  Most of it was fat trimming: over 1% of the text has been excised since V1.0. I am concentrating on Luka and Jema's dialogue right now.

I appreciate your taking my feedback. I really don't want to step on any of the team's toes. I'd like to keep reading along with the PDF and leaving suggestions, but feel free to take them with a grain of salt. If you do happen to take them seriously, you might want to wait until I've been able to comb through the whole script, especially to save Queue the trouble of updating over and over again.

Potos Village read-through
Quote from: 43
Hey, if it isn't RANDI.
An amazing light
appeared in the sky a
little while ago. It
seemed to be in the
direction of the
waterfall.
Amazing might not be the right adjective to describe the light. More common synonyms (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bright) could be brilliant, radiant, or even bright (if you decide to change the word, remember to change an to A). Second sentence is awkward, consider:
It looked like it came from the falls or It looked like it came from the forest

Quote from: 46
There's a man in the
pub I'm not used to
seeing around. I don't
know how to describe
it...you should see the
look in his eyes. It's
scary!
Suggested revision:
There's a stranger in the pub. He's got an intense look in his eyes... It's scary!

Quote from: 58
ELDER:Idiots! I said
don't go there! You have
conducted yourselves
like total brats!
Suggested revisions:
Idiots! I've told you all to stay out of there! You undisciplined brats!
or Idiots! I've told you all to stay away from there! You unruly brats!

Quote from: 62
ELLIOTT:Ooooh!
Maybe you found the
treasure!?
Consider changing the second sentence back to the W:
Did you find the treasure?

Quote from: 64
ELDER:Oh, bloody hell!
The Mana Sword has
been removed!
Everyone thought it
couldn't come loose,
but...
I think the W reads cleaner here, with a slight change:
ELDER:What have you
done?! How could YOU
have pulled out the
Mana Sword? That should be impossible...


Quote from: 65
TIMOTHY:Whoa! I've
heard of the Mana
Sword. There's a legend
that the village will be
annihilated if it's pulled
out...
Slight change to the third sentence:
Legend has it that the village will be annihilated if it's pulled out...

Quote from: 67
That legend says that
this Sword has been
with us to protect the
village. It's been drawn
now...
suggestion:
The legend says that the Mana Sword protects our village from disaster. Now that it's been removed...

Quote from: 72
ELLIOT:Get back here!
This is much more of a liberty than the other suggestions, but your notes say:
Quote
J is literally “Wait!”
with a coarse masculine
ending. There is a
distant possibility that
this was supposed to be
the Elder speaking, akin
to, “Hold it, you two!’.
It might be better to have the Elder trying to stop Elliot from attacking Randi, as it'd be in his character to keep the peace as the village's leader.

Quote from: 80
TRAVELER:Well
done! Wait, and I will
pull you up.
Consider:
Well done! Hold on, I will pull you up.

Quote from: 86
But you are too young.
Something has
happened to it...
Consider expanding second sentence for clarity; from the W:
Something must have happened to the sword.

Quote from: 89
It must be revived, but
that can only be done by
the one who took it. So I
can not...
revived might not be the right word, maybe try recharged, or reinvigorated??
Consider changing the second part of the first sentence:
but only the one who drew the sword can do so.
Also, apparently cannot is more usually used than can not, though it really doesn't matter (https://www.lexico.com/grammar/cannot-or-can-not)

Quote from: 91
TRAVELER:It would
be good for you to hear
Rusa Luka at the Water
Palace. For 200 years,
Luka has steadily
watched over these
lands and would have
good wisdom for you.
somewhat awkward, consider:
Seek out Rusa Luka at the Water Palace. Luka has watched these lands for over 200 years and is undoubtedly more than wise enough to advise you.

Quote from: 103
You heard us! Get out
now!
Get out of here might work better as the second sentence, from the W.

Quote from: 108
If you're in the village,
disaster will come to
us...Please, get out!
consider changing the last part to Please leave!, as get out! has been repeated quite a few times already in the script

Quote from: 111
Hey, RANDI...my
buddy, going
somewhere? Have a
good trip!
notes say
Quote
J. “big brother”, but
this could imply a
familial relationship in
English.
but Popoie refers to Randi as "big bro" numerous times. "big bro" might be less awkward than "my buddy", but not really a big deal

Quote from: 112
ELDER:As it is, even I
can't do more for you---
you, who was not a
villager by birth. Please,
forgive me.
kind of awkward, consider:
Since you were not born here, I cannot protect you from the wishes of the villagers. Please, forgive me.

Quote from: 114
When you were a child,
you came with your
mother to this village
from somewhere
unknown.
Quote from: 115
But she soon went
missing.
The Woolsey version is much better:
Quote
Your mother brought
you to this village when
you were just a baby.

Soon afterwards, she
disappeared...

Quote from: 123
By order of the Elder,
you are hereby banished
from Potos Village.
Now, get out!
Again, get out is used way too often (why would you even say "get out" when he's out of the village?). Maybe leave instead, or even be gone!  :P
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on November 25, 2020, 09:09:44 pm
@dzumeister, a lot of what you wrote may just come down to personal taste.  In a few cases, it's a matter of keeping it close as possible to the Japanese script.  Please check your DMs.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Viewer on November 29, 2020, 05:46:50 pm
There is a difference between "keeping it close to the Japanese script" and "overlaying the Japanese grammar and sentence structure", though. I understand how hard you've worked on this script, but if you look at a sentence and can't naturally picture it being said that way in English (not counting words spoken in an unusual dialect or speaking manner), it deserves a revision - because the absolute most important thing to get across in either language is clarity.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: AdamDravian on November 29, 2020, 08:33:04 pm
For what it's worth, I agree with Dzumeister about the lines he pointed out as being awkward. His suggested changes are good, though I would use a few more contractions.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on November 29, 2020, 08:45:24 pm
There is a difference between "keeping it close to the Japanese script" and "overlaying the Japanese grammar and sentence structure", though. I understand how hard you've worked on this script, but if you look at a sentence and can't naturally picture it being said that way in English (not counting words spoken in an unusual dialect or speaking manner), it deserves a revision - because the absolute most important thing to get across in either language is clarity.
For what it's worth, I agree with Dzumeister about the lines he pointed out as being awkward. His suggested changes are good, though I would use a few more contractions.

With the feedback of the last 10 days, we've made 5 revisions with hundreds of edits (V1.5 is the most extensive yet, should be ready tonight).  Some are still looking at the V1.0 script.  These changes should improve the experience substantially. 

Some samples:

Before: Conveyed by the flow of water, I know of happenings throughout the world.
Now: The ebb and flow of water convey knowledge about events throughout the world.

Before: Randi! You have gained much strength!
Now: Randi! You've gotten quite strong!

Before: I've decided that I must ask you to leave this village.
Now: I've decided I must ask you to leave this village.

Before: As for things you can get here---there's nothing but Sea Hare's Tails...
Now: There's nothing to be found here but Sea Hare's Tails...

Before: Actually, the Great Viper struck Matsuketan down, our last king.
Now: Actually, the Great Viper struck down our last king, Matsuketan.

Before: ...but King Mammon had it sealed and henceforth, none may enter.
Now: ...but King Mammon had it sealed. Since then, no one's been allowed to enter.

Before: What lies there...I don't know.
Now: I...don't know what lies there.
Literal Japanese: What could be there...I know not.

Before: Oh, the Republic? They mostly live in a castle on the sea a bit west of here.
Now: Oh the Republic? Go a bit west of here, and it's the castle on the coast.

Before: It'll probably take time, but I'm certain she'll return to how she was.
Now: It'll probably take time, but I'm certain she'll be as good as new.

Before: A monster has moved into the Crystal Palace since there's no one else there.
Now: A monster has moved into the abandoned Crystal Palace.

Before: Show resolve!
Now: Hang in there!

Before: But it's lost its light, and its power is no longer befitting the legend.
Now: But it's lost its light, and its power is no longer worthy of the legend.

Before: And once you know which magic to use in the forest to the west...
Now: And once you know which magic to use in the western forest...

Before: Because I didn't want to die, I pretended that I had this illness. Share that with no one!
Now: Because I didn't want to die, I faked having this illness. Don't tell anyone!

The original opening:

ELLIOTT:RANDI, you doofus! If you're careless, we'll be found out and the village Elder will be angry yet again!
TIMOTHY:That's right. According to village rules, coming here is not allowed! I heard there was a ghost and stuff...
ELLIOTT:Pfft, the adults are the childish ones, huh? They say that because they think it'll scare us and we'll stay away. But...grandma did say that she saw a big light shining near the waterfall. Surely, there's an incredible treasure!
TIMOTHY:Now let's hurry and keep going!

The new opening:

ELLIOTT:RANDI, you doofus! If you're careless, we'll be found out, and the village Elder will be angry again!
TIMOTHY:That's right. According to village rules, coming here is not allowed! I heard there was a ghost and stuff...
ELLIOTT:Pfft, the grown-ups are the childish ones, huh? They think that'll scare us and we'll stay away. But...grandma said she saw a big light shining near the waterfall. There must be some incredible treasure!
TIMOTHY:We have to find it! Let's keep going!

etc. etc.

The V1.5 script is about 1.5% smaller than V1.0 with all of the new edits.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: AdamDravian on November 30, 2020, 09:02:35 am
These are all great changes. :thumbsup:
However, I do have a couple comments.

Now: The ebb and flow of water convey knowledge about events throughout the world.

I would change "convey" to "conveys".


Before: It'll probably take time, but I'm certain she'll return to how she was.
Now: It'll probably take time, but I'm certain she'll be as good as new.

That works, but I'd personally go with something like this (I added the previous line for context):
As for Pamela, you don't need to worry.
It might take a while, but she'll fully recover.



Before: Because I didn't want to die, I pretended that I had this illness. Share that with no one!
Now: Because I didn't want to die, I faked having this illness. Don't tell anyone!

Again, a definite improvement, but I'd go with something like this ... (I've added the first line the guard speaks for full context):
To be honest, I was also assigned to the Witch Suppression Squad.
But I didn't want to die, so I faked being sick. Keep that between us!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Memorex on November 30, 2020, 01:58:33 pm
Far what it's worth, I'm all for the changes Adam proposed. Especially the one about Pamela. Without the added context I would have
assumed it was refering to an object like a sword (..or a car) :P

As for the soldier, iirc the french script read something like "My life is too precious, so I faked being sick", which sounds even more comic to me. Just a little anecdote, not a suggestion  :)

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Dzumeister on November 30, 2020, 02:32:01 pm
That works, but I'd personally go with something like this (I added the previous line for context):
As for Pamela, you don't need to worry.
It might take a while, but she'll fully recover.

"It'll probably take some time, but I'm certain she'll be right as rain" might work instead of "good as new", too, if you're looking to use a phrase instead

November 30, 2020, 05:25:31 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Before: Conveyed by the flow of water, I know of happenings throughout the world.
Now: The ebb and flow of water convey knowledge about events throughout the world.

I *think* it should be conveys
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Viewer on November 30, 2020, 07:53:57 pm
The changes shown are very well done. I believe it is "conveys" as well, since it is continually occurring.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Taosenai on November 30, 2020, 11:13:54 pm
So glad to see this project come to fruition. ManaRedux has worked way too hard on it--it took him far, far longer to align every line of every English translation of the game ever done, to re-localize the text from multiple sources, to prepare the commentary, to lay everything out for text insertion, etc. than it did for me to hastily translate the original Japanese. That's not to even mention what Queue has been doing to make everything actually work.

If other folks have questions about the original Japanese, I'm happy to provide feedback when I remember to check the thread. At this point, most of the lines in the script have developed their own voice distinct from the direct translation I provided. That's as it should be; anything past textbook Japanese does not translate "literally" into English, and ManaRedux took care to knead in some of the flavor of Woolsey's original in any case while preserving the sentiment of the original Japanese as accurately as he could.

That original script is basically workmanlike in most places, but it's poetic when it counts. It's also chock full of fun use of names and ideas from foreign languages, from Dungeons & Dragons, and from the Wizardry games--all well known influences on Square in its golden age. A whole host of French names appear, for example, albeit occasionally used in the same kind of nonsense fashion that English writers sometimes use Japanese words. (I suspect that Emperor Vandole's true name is Emperor Vent d'Or, for example!)

Finally, let me share my favorite bit of trivia from the original script. Sergei sings a brief segment of a song about loving the sea in one of his bits of dialogue; I did a bit of digging, and am certain that it's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbY9ImmYEc   Although released in 1976, "Umi sono ai" was featured in the famous New Year's singing content on NHK (Kouhaku Uta Gassen) in 1987, so well within working memory for the game's developers!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Vanya on December 01, 2020, 03:43:47 am
It should be 'conveys', yes.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on December 01, 2020, 05:28:51 am
I already fixed it for the next release.

Today at 06:14:56 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Far what it's worth, I'm all for the changes Adam proposed. Especially the one about Pamela. Without the added context I would have
assumed it was refering to an object like a sword (..or a car) :P

As for the soldier, iirc the french script read something like "My life is too precious, so I faked being sick", which sounds even more comic to me. Just a little anecdote, not a suggestion  :)

Keep up the good work!

It's very common for a doctor to tell you you're as good as new. 
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Memorex on December 01, 2020, 10:57:17 am
It's very common for a doctor to tell you you're as good as new.

Yes, sure. Thought 'recover' sounded a bit more dramatic, but it's totally your call  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: ManaRedux on December 01, 2020, 01:43:24 pm
V1.6 will be released tonightish, and that's the last planned update for now.  It has a few hundred(!) more edits similar to those in #87.  All of the revisions since V1.0 were in response to the general consensus; we took a look at each line with the project's goals and our original plans in mind.  The script has about 2% less text than our first release, and I hope it will be seen as a huge improvement to the experience, even if we couldn't accommodate every request.

Taosenai, Queue and myself would like to move this release into maintenance mode, and be more active with other projects.  This is only the first release of the SAP!  Queue is working on Turbo (including implementing this script), and Taosenai is working on his own script (100% ManaRedux free) based on his very literal translation for this release, as well as developing his own hacking tools for the game.  Moving forward, if there's mass backlash against something specific, we'll take a look, but it seems to be in a good place for now.  We'll continue to be active on this thread (Taosenai should make an appearance at some point).

My recommendation is to actually play V1.6 and enjoy yourself :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Memorex on December 01, 2020, 02:10:14 pm
Thanks for all the work that has been put in to this! It'll be a perfect company for the upcoming holidays :)

You deserve a beer for this!  :beer:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: Queue on December 01, 2020, 03:26:01 pm
So glad to see this project come to fruition. ManaRedux has worked way too hard on it--it took him far, far longer to align every line of every English translation of the game ever done, to re-localize the text from multiple sources, to prepare the commentary, to lay everything out for text insertion, etc. than it did for me to hastily translate the original Japanese. That's not to even mention what Queue has been doing to make everything actually work.

If other folks have questions about the original Japanese, I'm happy to provide feedback when I remember to check the thread. At this point, most of the lines in the script have developed their own voice distinct from the direct translation I provided. That's as it should be; anything past textbook Japanese does not translate "literally" into English, and ManaRedux took care to knead in some of the flavor of Woolsey's original in any case while preserving the sentiment of the original Japanese as accurately as he could.

That original script is basically workmanlike in most places, but it's poetic when it counts. It's also chock full of fun use of names and ideas from foreign languages, from Dungeons & Dragons, and from the Wizardry games--all well known influences on Square in its golden age. A whole host of French names appear, for example, albeit occasionally used in the same kind of nonsense fashion that English writers sometimes use Japanese words. (I suspect that Emperor Vandole's true name is Emperor Vent d'Or, for example!)

Finally, let me share my favorite bit of trivia from the original script. Sergei sings a brief segment of a song about loving the sea in one of his bits of dialogue; I did a bit of digging, and am certain that it's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbY9ImmYEc   Although released in 1976, "Umi sono ai" was featured in the famous New Year's singing content on NHK (Kouhaku Uta Gassen) in 1987, so well within working memory for the game's developers!
Due to the new member moderation delay, Taosenai's post got buried a few posts back due to the discussion about convey.

Regarding convey vs. conveys... it depends on if "ebb and flow" is a compound subject. After deciding that (it's not absolute), then it's just basic subject-verb agreement.

So strip it down and read:
(ebb and flow)conveys(knowledge)
(ebb)and(flow)convey (knowledge)


"The ebb and flow" is often treated as a compound subject in English, especially if used metaphorically, but in this case it's literal, referring to water flowing in and out (or rising and falling, etc.). So it boils down to the writer's choice as it's easy to argue both cases for "ebb and flow" (that it's a singular compound subject or that it's plural); personally, I think it reads better as "convey" without the "s"...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
Post by: lexluthermiester on December 01, 2020, 04:12:37 pm
V1.6 will be released tonightish, and that's the last planned update for now.  It has a few hundred(!) more edits similar to those in #87.  All of the revisions since V1.0 were in response to the general consensus; we took a look at each line with the project's goals and our original plans in mind.  The script has about 2% less text than our first release, and I hope it will be seen as a huge improvement to the experience, even if we couldn't accommodate every request.

Taosenai, Queue and myself would like to move this release into maintenance mode, and be more active with other projects.  This is only the first release of the SAP!  Queue is working on Turbo (including implementing this script), and Taosenai is working on his own script (100% ManaRedux free) based on his very literal translation for this release, as well as developing his own hacking tools for the game.  Moving forward, if there's mass backlash against something specific, we'll take a look, but it seems to be in a good place for now.  We'll continue to be active on this thread (Taosenai should make an appearance at some point).

My recommendation is to actually play V1.6 and enjoy yourself :thumbsup:
Was about to sit down with it, but I think waiting for 1.6 might be a better idea.

As for the literal translation, a project like that was done nearly 20 years ago and it didn't read well. It's not that it wasn't translated well, it's just that literal translations of Japanese always read poorly in English. The reason for this is very simple: language structure & functionality. Japanese is functionally different from Germanic, Slovic and other phonetic based languages in that a single word can be used to express an entire idea, concept or even a whole expression. It takes careful and skillful thought to properly translate Japanese to just about any other language.

Honestly, I prefer the "westernized" approach done for this game.