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General Category => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: pianohombre on September 18, 2017, 03:22:50 pm

Title: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: pianohombre on September 18, 2017, 03:22:50 pm
Alas, Samus returns. I was going to post on another thread but no comments for 60 days  :banghead:

Looks like it's even pretty close to AM2R, so if you don't own a 3DS, you could try searching google for a copy, since Nintendo sent a Cease and Desist letter and most official releases have been removed.

What I don't get about these stand-alone games, created by Game Maker or what-not, is why re-create an entire engine, and everything from the ground up? They already had Super Metroid, and there's a program to hack the game, plus Metroid Fusion, and Metroid Zero Mission for GBA. Seems like it would be a lot easier to just hack those games than start all over from the beginning. Not sure how flexible Game Maker is, but the AM2R project took a team of people ten years to create. I feel like if they just hacked a game it could have been done in 5 years or less.

I get that some games are in development for 10 years or more, but they eventually release those on the market. For the fan games many times they still release them for free, even after years of work!!
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: FAST6191 on September 18, 2017, 06:11:50 pm
Around here I usually see (and give) the exact opposite advice.
Making a whole new game using an existing one as a base is a silly way to set about things. Probably still even if you have a high end tool to edit the game with.

A remix, a mechanic tweak, a boss rush, a graphics tweak, a music tweak, a control tweak. All good things you should absolutely do as a hack. Full new game, possible but probably harder than making a whole new game.

"team of people ten years"
If this is a weekend hobby (and if you think fan games are a good idea and are using game maker* it probably is) then that already sends timelines up (see also ROM hacking -- not so many here do things as a retirement, unemployment or school holidays project and this is why it can take ages), if as speculated you are also learning game design/code on top of this then it is a miracle anything gets released at all really, if multiple people are in that boat then you get to wait on others to learn and do, these sorts of things take longer to get the ball rolling on than leaving a pub/bar when you have 5 different groups to say goodbye to and even with all that a proper go at this is not a short affair -- all those game code jams don't produce long games unless they use procedural generation as making long games takes ages.

*I have heard of many devs thrashing out a gameplay idea in gamemaker, unity and such (might be resource intensive, somewhat restrictive/weak in what you can make it do easily and not look so hot but they do allow for rapid development if you can handle it) to see if it works so I certainly can't say all there. Not to mention Unity has really upped its game this last year or two.

That said I have no real reverence for fan games. Just seems like a bad idea from a legal perspective, and a stifling one from a game design perspective. Make a clone or a homage or something, and then figure out what is wrong with the game you have cloned and fix that and now we are talking.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Weretindere on September 18, 2017, 08:17:51 pm
ROM hax require a different skill set than game making software. It's why there's 200+ "Quests" for Zelda Classic and practically no one caring about haxing Zelda; haxing is harder, more annoying and more legally convoluted. Peeps would also rather learn what it takes to make something they can sell with minimum legal implications, not homebrew that practically no one buys.

As much as I h8 C&D's, I also h8 why anyone would dedicate so much time into making something with unoriginal characters. Give every enemy and the player a slight palette change, armor redesign, rename them and claim it's something else. Once there was a No Mario's Sky, it got a notice, then it was DMCA's Sky, and no one has cared since.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: NERV Agent on September 18, 2017, 10:52:09 pm
What I don't get about these stand-alone games, created by Game Maker or what-not, is why re-create an entire engine, and everything from the ground up?

Sonic the Hedgehog and Christian Whitehead come to mind.

The original mobile version of Sonic 1 was emulated, and it was terrible.

But Christian Whitehead made his own engine for Sonic CD. Sega noticed, and didn't C&D him. Instead, they hired him to use his engine to port Sonic 1 to mobile devices, and now Sonic 1 on your phone doesn't terribly. Also, widescreen so you don't run into shit because you didn't see it coming on an old 4:3 aspect ratio.

Then he made Sonic 2 on Android which makes use of modern graphics capabilities, and the previously choppy Special Stages are no longer an unplayable fucking mess!

A new engine can take advantage of the capabilities that modern hardware has to offer and yields better results. This is opposed to the game programmer being restricted by the hardware limitations of whatever console that their "old school" style game is based off of.

Also, when the programmer makes a new engine, they know the source code because they made it. If they want to change something, they just have to open the ".cpp" file or whatever and change the script in whatever programming language they were using. This is opposed to the scenario in ROM hacking when you don't have access to the source code, and all you see is binary and do your editing in a hex editor and hope it works.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Jorpho on September 18, 2017, 11:14:23 pm
Seems like it would be a lot easier to just hack those games than start all over from the beginning. Not sure how flexible Game Maker is, but the AM2R project took a team of people ten years to create. I feel like if they just hacked a game it could have been done in 5 years or less.
Hacking will only get you so far.  For instance, has anyone managed to replace Samus's sprite in Super Metroid yet?  The graphics are such a giant mess of limb tiles that the task seems quite insurmountable.  Starting over from scratch offers virtually infinite flexibility.

As much as I h8 C&D's, I also h8 why anyone would dedicate so much time into making something with unoriginal characters. Give every enemy and the player a slight palette change, armor redesign, rename them and claim it's something else. Once there was a No Mario's Sky, it got a notice, then it was DMCA's Sky, and no one has cared since.
But that's just it – no one has cared since, including the gaming public.  If they'd started with a game like DMCA's Sky, no one would have paid it any attention at all.  There might very well be a game just as good as AM2R out there with original characters, armor redesign, etc. that no one has played simply because it got lost in the shuffle, or because the author didn't know how to market the game.  Especially because making memorable and well-illustrated original characters in itself is difficult.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: SleepyFist on September 18, 2017, 11:31:03 pm
Little to no programming experience required to start.
Simple drag and drop interface, adding assets is as easy as dropping them onto the window.
no filesize limit
Multiplatform export.
3rd party plugin support(GM or Construct? can't remember)
Offers a smooth way to learn programming basics, ie loops, branches, variables.

It's a beginners tool, but one you can push pretty far with effort.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Weretindere on September 19, 2017, 12:56:18 am
But that's just it – no one has cared since, including the gaming public.  If they'd started with a game like DMCA's Sky, no one would have paid it any attention at all.  There might very well be a game just as good as AM2R out there with original characters, armor redesign, etc. that no one has played simply because it got lost in the shuffle, or because the author didn't know how to market the game.  Especially because making memorable and well-illustrated original characters in itself is difficult.
That would be technically true if No Mario's Sky was actually that great as a game on its own, which it was largely boring after 10 minutes and was seen as a quick meme. I mean, I could compare it to something like Houchou Shoujo Gensoukyoku: Memories of Replica which is a Metroidvania that's hindered by being part of the Yume Nikki fandom who are too busy playing unfinished RPG Maker clones.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: SCD on September 19, 2017, 05:54:33 am
I played both games, I actually prefer AM2R over Samus Returns.

I think it plays and feels more like the SNES & GBA Metroid games than the 3DS game does, I also think it has better graphics, gameplay, sound, music and maps in my opinion.

The 3DS game is good, but it has a few problems. I though the melee attack system is annoying, I also thought the maps are a little confusing and complicating to explore, I got lost a couple times, including I also felt the backtracking was kind of a chore to do as well.

In the other games, they made sure the maps are easy to explore and they also made sure the backtracking was fun to do as well.

Another problem with Samus Returns is the game gets a little too hard.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: SleepyFist on September 19, 2017, 12:19:06 pm
That would be technically true if No Mario's Sky was actually that great as a game on its own, which it was largely boring after 10 minutes and was seen as a quick meme. I mean, I could compare it to something like Houchou Shoujo Gensoukyoku: Memories of Replica which is a Metroidvania that's hindered by being part of the Yume Nikki fandom who are too busy playing unfinished RPG Maker clones.
Thanks for letting me know about that, probably would have never picked it out of the sea of other fangames.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Gideon Zhi on September 19, 2017, 12:55:10 pm
I'm not sold on Samus Returns. I like it in concept but I'm super iffy on MercurySteam after playing Mirror of Fate for about an hour. That game was Not Good.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: SCD on September 19, 2017, 01:51:14 pm
I was skeptic at first, because I was not a big fan of their Castlevania games. But they actually did a good job on Samus Returns, but I recommend downloading AM2R 1.3.3 instead.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: NERV Agent on September 19, 2017, 04:51:17 pm
Hacking will only get you so far.  For instance, has anyone managed to replace Samus's sprite in Super Metroid yet?  The graphics are such a giant mess of limb tiles that the task seems quite insurmountable.

http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/342/
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: pianohombre on September 19, 2017, 06:02:02 pm
No Mario's Sky, I read, was created in under 72 hours for a contest, so they didn't care much about copyright. It was almost nominated for an award I read.

I happen to like the Metroid series and I typically try and support these game iterations when they are released, so that game companies keep making them (the good ones not the terrible games they market at top price for $59.99 and only change a few things). Otherwise if they aren't supported they will die out like the Earthbound series. Although, I don't really like it when they release exclusive console only games- now there's 4 or 5 systems for each console generation plus the portable section. Who has the time or money to keep up with it all?

Nonetheless, personally watching youtube gameplay vids is a decent substitute, or playing it down the line in a few years or 5 years doesn't necessarily bother me. Whatever 2D/3D or original/remake I don't care just help me get through these boring weekends. NFL season who wants to hack Madden '93?
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Jorpho on September 19, 2017, 11:25:46 pm
I reckon since I have the original Game Boy version on my 3DS already, I might as well play that before anything else.  I was concerned that like the original, it might not have aged well and is rather insufferable without such modern conveniences as a proper map – but I've been told that it's actually a fairly linear game.

http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/342/
Oh.  How unexpected.  From the readme:
Quote
Q- How many tiles does Samus have?
A- Over 4,200. Not counting the opening and ending graphics.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: KingMike on September 19, 2017, 11:47:30 pm
I do remember Metroid II having something of a balance between exploration aspects within a generally linear structure. (to account for that it was a portable game and you may not exactly carry graph paper around with you to draw a map :P )
The world was mostly split into different regions that I think were referred to officially (or at least by Nintendo Power) as "Phases".

Basically one large hub room filled with acid that reduces as each "phase" of the game was completed, allowing access to the next "phase".
You would have to look around within each Phase to find all the Metroids to unlock the next one.
Even if you don't remember the hub area, the music at least worked as a sound cue (seeing the giant acid pit plus the game's main theme music).
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: pianohombre on September 24, 2017, 02:17:33 pm
Maybe Super Metroid would be the exception of rom hacking, if her sprite has 4200 tiles. Seems a bit high??

Although, I'd like to get Metroid Zero Mission, or Metroid Fusion on the GBA in the Wii U store. I may just get the GBA advance game and then run it in an emulator, since my GBA was stolen out of my car. Probably should have bought it before the release of Samus Returns, since the prices will most likely temporarily go up during the release.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: KingMike on September 24, 2017, 02:58:00 pm
I do have an original Metroid II as well as a 3DS eShop copy. I recall the latter as I was forced to spend my remaining Nintendo Coins when Club Nintendo shut down. Still mad NA never got the SNES Classic Controller. That was the one thing I wanted besides G&W Collection (got part 2 since thankfully someone traded in a CIB Vol 1 to GameStop I could snatch up). (this My Nintendo stuff is stupid. I don't want to do math to figure out if x coins/stars/whatever for y% off game z is a good deal :P )
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: SleepyFist on September 24, 2017, 08:03:07 pm
I'm starting my new job tomorrow, might pick it up once I get paid and see how it compares to AM2R.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: pianohombre on September 25, 2017, 03:33:24 pm
@SleepyFist. Let us know how it is? After 2-4 hours of gameplay give us a little mini-review on here. I'm sure it's up to par with most Metroid games, and will be pretty fun. Even if there's only 10 hours worth of gameplay probably would be worth getting.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: SleepyFist on September 25, 2017, 05:16:20 pm
Sure, I'm not the best at reviews but I'll give my opinions on it.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Jorpho on September 30, 2017, 01:15:05 am
All right, so I finally took my first crack at the original.  I've killed four Metroids, triggered one earthquake, and found the Spider Ball and Ice Beam... and now I have no idea where to go.  I know there's a giant lake of acid which I can't get through; I guess that means I missed a Metroid somewhere whose death will trigger the next earthquake.  Only I have no idea where that little bugger is hiding.

I note that the original manual (http://metroid.retropixel.net/games/metroid2/manual/) does not bother to suggest that when paused, the number in the lower-right shows the number of Metroids specifically left in the area.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: KingMike on September 30, 2017, 03:30:07 pm
It does say the Metroid Detector "can display other kinds of information".
I guess that was the suggestion.

Still though, the icon changes to "R", I think. And even when I was a kid I figured it stood for "Remaining".

The remaining Metroid will be somewhere within the last area you were in (the bounds of an area or "phase" can be detected by music change).
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Jorpho on September 30, 2017, 03:48:20 pm
Ah, turned out to be obvious.  I neglected to follow one of numerous identical-looking corridors to its end.  I figured it would be something silly, like a secret tunnel hidden beneath a pile of that bombable spiked-whatever.  Not setting any speed records this time through, oh no.

Still though, the icon changes to "R", I think.
"L", actually.  Could easily be interpreted as "level".

ETA: Coming up towards the end now.  I admit I consulted a FAQ because I had already gotten the Screw Attack and was getting tired of looking for the Varia Suit.  Turns out I missed it completely.  Its position as depicted in the manual (i.e. between two particular blocks) is not as it is found in the game; I was concerned I hadn't been bombing the floors adequately.

I only have four energy tanks and 170 missiles.  A FAQ suggests that should be just barely enough.  Oops.  No doubt being able to save-state makes this game much more tolerable than it was originally; having to clamber back to a save point every time you want to stop would be such a pain in the neck.

The Metroids are actually kinda wimpy.  Get in close and you can completely unload on them.  But the way they're barely animated and drift mindlessly through solid walls and floors brings to mind some kind of primitive handheld LCD game.

But the design in general is frustrating as heck.  Too many long, vertical corridors with tiny platforms that seem to go on forever, and not to mention the long, horizontal corridors filled with spikes.  Blech.

ETA2: Aaand finished, with a time a little under six hours.  Not setting any speed records, like I said.  The "jump into the Queen's stomach" strategy is immensely handy and I managed it with only 70 missiles in total, but it's very easy to get stuck in the mouth and I doubt I would have figured it out on my own.  (The trick is to stop moving for an instant.)

I really doubt I would have had the patience as a wee one for this game – not without getting some maps from Nintendo Power, anyway.  (Trying to get color copies in those days was a nasty, expensive endeavor.  Maybe I would have traced them.)
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Bahamut ZERO on October 03, 2017, 02:49:32 pm
I'm a couple hours into Samus Returns, here's my thoughts so far:

The 3D effect is pretty good, but REALLY shines on still screens of artwork (Like the opening screens and the Chozo Memories Gallery).

So far I've seen, like, 6 enemy types in the 2-3 areas I've gone through.

The melee counter's kind of neat, though I'd rather the cannon be a slight bit more powerful instead.

Metroids seem a good deal harder to kill than in the original. Granted, I haven't played the original in so long that I barely remember said difficulty in it.

Free-aiming with the circle pad is nice.

Fusion Suit mode makes the game Demon Souls feel like a Spyro the Dragon game in comparison to difficulty. You get to run around in the Fusion Suit, which IS pretty sweet, BUT the first enemies you see in the game can stomp you completely into the ground in 2 or so hits if you aren't careful.


With all that said - still a pretty fun game. Definitely worth a go.

---------------------------------------

Oh, in case anyone bought the game off the E-Shop, is playing on a 3DS that can run homebrew, and don't feel like dishing out the extra cash for Amiibos for content already built into the game (yes, that's ALL they do - unlock stuff that is blocked off for no real reason other than an extra cash grab), then you'll dig this save file someone posted on GameFaqs:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dq3y6dkv4ejh2so/fusion-3%20amiibos%20zero%20percent%20%28thanks%20to%20flash-sama%20and%20wiifan420%29.rar?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/dq3y6dkv4ejh2so/fusion-3%20amiibos%20zero%20percent%20%28thanks%20to%20flash-sama%20and%20wiifan420%29.rar?dl=0)


There's 3 different exported saves to pick from. I used Profile 1 since it has all the amiibos scanned, is in Fusion Mode, AND is at the very start of the game. Also has all the galleries unlocked, to boot! :D

Easiest way of importing a save -

>Download JKSM (save manager)
>Start JKSM, export your current save file
>Replace the files in your exported save with ones from one of the three included in the rar
>Start JKSM, import your save file, and you're done.

BAM.  :beer:
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: pianohombre on October 11, 2017, 06:24:31 pm
They just released the switch, but didn't release any version of this game for it. Must be Nintendo's way of forcing people to buy the 3ds if they didn't already have one. They might put it on the Virtual Console for switch in the future, once they enable virtual console. Looks like they are in the middle of making Metroid Prime 4.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Jorpho on October 11, 2017, 11:01:43 pm
I started playing AM2R.  It's definitely a very different game – actually, it makes me all nostalgic for the olden days of DOS platformers like Commander Keen and the original Duke Nukem.  I love all the little atmospheric touches like the flavor text, the way the buildings have genuine designations, and the parallax scrolling.  The way the individual species of Metroids increase in difficulty is a need touch, too.  It is much less taxing of my patience than the Game Boy game, but I wouldn't call it "better", necessarily – it's just a different point of view on the same subject matter.

Must be Nintendo's way of forcing people to buy the 3ds if they didn't already have one.
Eh?  More like they think they'll sell more copies to the existing 3DS install base rather than the comparatively tiny numbers of people who own a Switch.  A remake of a 26-year-old game on its own isn't going to make people run out and try to find a Switch.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Gideon Zhi on October 11, 2017, 11:13:13 pm
One thing AM2R lacks is the feeling of depth you get from the original. The lack of fast travel options in the original means you're constantly going deeper and deeper under SR388's surface, which is just something you don't quite get. I get Metroid 2's designation as a sort of lite horror game, with the claustrophobia being the primary driver of that, and I recognize that's an effect of game design that wouldn't really fly in the modern day, but it's still sad that AM2R doesn't evoke this. It's still threatening in other ways, but it does lose something.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Jorpho on October 12, 2017, 12:04:46 am
Oh, yes – the full-heal at save points is a little off, especially compared to stuffing missile batteries and energy refills separately in obscure nooks and crannies.  And then the bosses explode into missile-energy confetti such that you barely even need to stop to refill.  I assume the higher difficulty levels tune that up a bit.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Iceman100x on October 23, 2017, 11:06:09 pm
I see someone is trying to stir up some trouble. >:(
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: lexluthermiester on October 25, 2017, 01:56:13 am
One thing AM2R lacks is the feeling of depth you get from the original. The lack of fast travel options in the original means you're constantly going deeper and deeper under SR388's surface, which is just something you don't quite get. I get Metroid 2's designation as a sort of lite horror game, with the claustrophobia being the primary driver of that, and I recognize that's an effect of game design that wouldn't really fly in the modern day, but it's still sad that AM2R doesn't evoke this. It's still threatening in other ways, but it does lose something.
I can see these points. Kinda feels like it makes up for that in other ways. Personally never liked the cramped feel of the original. Never actually finished it because it just felt tedious. AM2R however, I'm on my second play through. The 3DS remake is quite good, but for different reasons. Kinda hoping for an NSX version.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: pianohombre on November 27, 2017, 02:03:22 am
I have recently gotten into the GBA Metroid games. Unfortunately, I won't be able to get into this new spin-off until the hype is long-dead and they have probably released a new Metroid for Switch. It's alright though, the GBA games are very similar to the SNES counter-parts. I don't have much time to play video games anyways. This game is already only 2 months old and the only videos being shown on IGN are of Super Mario Odyssey, and the upcoming Destiny 2 and Star Wars Battlefront 2 games.
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Shade Aurion on December 15, 2017, 11:52:19 pm
I thought the 3DS Samus Returns was a bit shotty with the engine they made it on. A good Metroid game though and supporting the official release sees a possibility of more Metroid games in future. Considering that Fusion was up for what i'd consider to be an unnecessary 3D remake, I can see the quadrilogy having 3D renditions which i'm iffy about because a HD Super Metroid would be great and I just prefer the nice metroidvania, 2d pixel art sprites over the kinda crappy 3D models. When it comes to that they should have made Samus Returns a fully funded Switch game with even further detailed models but thats just me.

All this said, AM2R is the best metroid game i've played to date. I've spoken to the original dev and those handling the updates, especially around the time of my DudeGoBack playthrough and it is very much the remake I always wanted and more and likely the exact changes I always wanted for the Metroid series. Faster jumping, smoother bombing, looming horror atmosphere.. It was an 11/10 great job whereas i'd rate Samus Returns as a 7/10. AM2R fits in much better with Zero Mission, Fusion, Super Metroid and the tech Demo Confrontation fits in with them nicely too. Samus Returns feels like its own thing. Its own.. Other M-like thing..
Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: Jorpho on December 16, 2017, 12:43:41 am
Dang, I still need to finish AM2R.  I think I had just gotten the Super Bombs before I got too busy with other things.

It was getting to be a little nerve-wracking.  I guess I might enjoy it more if I can just bring myself to stop thinking about the clock and enjoying the exploration; I constantly have the sensation of no you are doing this wrong you are wasting so much time and now you missed that shiny bauble and you'll never get it.  Too much stress before bedtime. 

Also those Zeta metroids are bastards.  But they're not quite as bad as some of those speed-dash barriers.  (I presume there's some sort of powerup eventually that makes them easier to take care of, as there are a couple I couldn't figure out.)

Title: Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
Post by: pianohombre on December 28, 2017, 07:45:12 am
About how long does it take to complete the game, give or take? Is there a lot of side-quests that add hours to the gameplay?