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Romhacking => Personal Projects => Topic started by: Supper on January 17, 2017, 04:59:17 pm

Title: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Supper on January 17, 2017, 04:59:17 pm
So if you haven't heard the story by now, Working Designs was an American game publisher in the '90s that specialized in licensing niche Japanese games, totally rewriting their scripts to insert crude jokes and pop culture references, completely wrecking their difficulty by jacking up all the enemies' stats and adding other cheap impediments, then releasing them in the US. (If you like the sound of that, these patches probably aren't for you.)

Most of the games they put out are sufficiently esoteric that no one's interested in doing a retranslation, so often, these butchered versions are the only way to play the games in English. That seemed like a real shame to me, so lately I've been working on this little project to restore the gameplay from the Japanese versions of these games. Since I'm not a translator, I can't do anything about the made-up dialogue, but I'm aiming to at least get the difficulty back to what it was intended to be (and for Lunar, to get the script in lower case!).

So far I have several essentially-complete patches, listed below. I'm not sure how many more of these I'll make or how quickly I'll get them done, but I figured I'd share my work so far. Detailed patching instructions are included in the download links above, but the tl;dr is "Drag-and-drop your BIN or ISO onto the appropriate .bat file" (or do things manually if you're not using Windows).

Let me know if you run into any problems using these, or if you know of some additional difficulty changes Working Designs made that I didn't fix.

If you're interested, I'm writing up the changes made to the games for TCRF (https://tcrf.net/The_Cutting_Room_Floor). Check these games' pages if you want details on what Working Designs did.

------------ Sega CD ------------

Lunar: The Silver Star (Sega CD) -- patch v1 (2/24/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/Khhg3Vf.png) (http://i.imgur.com/U7eYSHV.png) (http://i.imgur.com/TX2rd2V.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/q1dodzukzxe6rdi/Lunar+The+Silver+Star+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip)
Tested all the way through and should work fine. Since there's so much text, though, it's infeasible for me to check every single conversation for text box overflows and other issues. If anything goes wrong, let me know.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All enemies have their stats restored to their original, lower amounts from the Japanese version. Note that in a rarity for a Working Designs release, only six enemies were changed, mostly bosses.
* Shrine donations were raised to 100s each in the US version; they're now 10s, as in the JP version. It still takes ten donations to get the bonus song, regardless of version.
* In the US version, donations to the shrine near the Red Dragon Cave were mistakenly made to give the player money instead of taking it away. This has been fixed.
* The US version modified the very end of the game to make Alex take extremely high damage from Luna's lightning blasts unless the player uses the Alex's Harp item. This has been restored to the Japanese behavior, where he always takes the reduced amount of damage.
* All hexagrams and pentagrams, which were removed from the US version at Sega of America's behest, have been restored. This includes the icons for the Light Barrier and Power Barrier items, as well as the various teleportation circles throughout the game.
* Xenobia's nude battle graphics have been restored.
* The brief nude shot of Luna in the ending was given a washed-out palette in the US version; it's been reverted to the original one.
* Though not technically a "restoration", all text has been converted to proper mixed case instead of all caps, and has been proofread to remove the most egregious errors.
* Related to the above, the original English font had very poor proportioning that made upper case and lower case letters look very awkward together. This patch tweaks the font to hopefully make it easier on the eyes.

Lunar: Eternal Blue (Sega CD) -- patch v3 (2/24/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/532vgzX.png) (http://i.imgur.com/dMCsmro.png) (http://i.imgur.com/we2vHme.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/jxrfes7cj10atfd/Lunar+Eternal+Blue+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v3.zip)
Tested all the way through. Due to having lots of text, I may have missed issues with text overflowing boxes, etc., so let me know if anything blows up.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All enemies have their stats restored to what they were in the Japanese version. (The US version increases most enemies' HP by 25% or more, and also drastically increases many enemies' Attack and/or Defense).
* Saving no longer costs Magic EXP.
* Items that were made more expensive in the US version now cost the original amounts.
* Spells that had their MP costs raised in the US version have been restored to the original costs.
* The Althena statues that require donations to use have had their fees reduced to the original amounts. (All but one were originally 100s per use.)
* The mayor of Larpa's information fee has been restored from 500s to the original 30s.
* The replaced music in the Star Dragon Tower has been removed.
* The swapped icons for the Heal Litany and Calm Litany spell lines have been reverted.
* Various bits of censorship done to meet Sega of America's content policies have been undone:
  * The minor changes to the nude shots of Lucia in the opening cutscene have been reverted.
  * All pentagrams (large and small teleport pads, Magic Shield icon, various battle animations) have been restored.
  * The nude shot of Luna in the flashback to The Silver Star (which was edited in that game as well) has been restored.
  * Plantarium/Plantella's nudity has been restored.
* Though not technically a "restoration", all text has been converted to proper mixed case instead of all-caps, and has been proofread to remove the most egregious errors. Since the game's original English font didn't look very good with combined upper and lower case letters, it's also been tweaked a bit to hopefully look better.

Popful Mail (Sega CD) -- patch v2 (2/24/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/0rkqYpa.png) (http://i.imgur.com/thwJRPT.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/gwak1aw2kgi108g/Popful+Mail+Un-Worked+Design+v3.zip)
Tested all the way through. Patch is complete, assuming no problems arise.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All enemies have their stats restored to what they were in the Japanese version.
* The formula that calculates damage from passive hazards (lava, spikes, etc.) has been reverted to its original form.
* Items now cost (and sell for) what they did in the Japanese version.

Vay (Sega CD) -- patch v1 (2/24/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/zp3zO7b.png) (http://i.imgur.com/uTRg1Ll.png) (http://i.imgur.com/I8qTveX.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/uzn3hfu2fxz4s9v/Vay+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip)
Tested all the way through, hopefully problem-free.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* Enemy stats are restored to what they were in the Japanese game.
* Spell MP costs are reduced to their original values.
* Stat bonuses given by equipment are restored to their original levels.
* Inn costs are reduced to the original 4g.
* HP and MP are no longer restored on level up.
* The chest in the hidden Lorath Castle vault that contains 1,500g in the US version now contains 1,000g, per the original.
* Lynx's bar tab has been reduced from 20,000g to the original 1,000g.
* The US version inserted an event that caused an instant game over if Sirufa's teleportation was used without having all party members equipped with "Filtration Masks". This no longer occurs.
* The "Gold Vortex" chest in Vaygess has been replaced with its original contents.
* The US version moved the intro cutscene to before the title screen and made it unskippable if no save data exists. This patch leaves it before the title screen, but makes it skippable.

------------ PC-Engine/PC-Engine CD ------------

Cosmic Fantasy 2 (PC Engine CD/TurboGrafx-CD) -- patch v0 (3/21/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/nwe5507.png) (http://i.imgur.com/3mo7rK7.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/1lcl66cbvy4d7o8/Cosmic+Fantasy+2+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through, albeit very rapidly and with a lot of cheats turned on...
Changes:
Spoiler:
* Enemy stats are restored to what they were in the Japanese game. The only changes in the US version were to the first and last few bosses of the game (though some of their stats absolutely skyrocketed).
* Beating the first boss awards 20 EXP in the US version; it now gives nothing, per the original game.
* Rim (Babette)'s obscene gesture in her introductory cutscene has been restored.

Exile (PC Engine CD/TurboGrafx-CD) -- patch v0 (1/28/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/XL2Fg2G.png) (http://i.imgur.com/sF80wx7.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/n09rd0czq2q90qw/Exile+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through, hopefully problem-free.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All enemies have their stats restored to what they were in the Japanese version.
* The "Warp" spell that returns Sadler to the start of the current dungeon has been re-enabled.
* The two chests in the game that contain gold have been restored to their original amounts (900g -> 500g, 2000g -> 2500g).

Exile II / Exile: Wicked Phenomenon (PC Engine CD/TurboGrafx-CD) -- patch v1 (2/10/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/IoOOnw9.png) (http://i.imgur.com/yBAtgPK.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/bbn6q2hvydwqdbu/Exile+II+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip)
Tested all the way through, hopefully problem-free.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All enemies have their stats restored to what they were in the Japanese version.

------------ Saturn ------------

Magic Knight Rayearth -- patch v0
(http://i.imgur.com/EwmBI9v.png) (http://i.imgur.com/IWE4HX5.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/uig48pybltb43wb/Magic+Knight+Rayearth+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through several times. Everything should be fine.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All enemies and their attacks do the damage they did in the Japanese version.
* Enemy speeds have been reduced to their original levels.

------------ PlayStation ------------

Alundra (PlayStation) -- patch v1 (3/4/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/98zMbO7.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/4i2qevad5626dyx/Alundra+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip)
Should work, but hasn't been tested all the way through. Let me know if anything goes wrong, or if you can verify that the game is completable without issue.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All enemies have their stats restored to what they were in the Japanese version.
* The timing of the disappearing switch puzzle in Elene's dream has been reverted to its original, harder difficulty from the Japanese version.

Lunar - Silver Star Story Complete (PlayStation) -- patch v0 (4/9/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/iPJHSpy.png) (http://i.imgur.com/NKvJPOj.png) (http://i.imgur.com/IXNna1f.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/l0wtdua6rbicxsa/Lunar+-+Silver+Star+Story+Complete+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through, should work fine.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All regular enemies have their stats restored to their original levels from the Japanese version. (In general, the US version reduced enemy HP by 10%, increased Attack by 20-40%, reduced EXP payout by 15%, and reduced Silver payout by 11%.)
* The stat scaling used for bosses now functions as in the Japanese version. (The US version increased the scale rate of some stats for certain bosses, and increased the minimum scaled level by 2-6 levels for all bosses.)
* Chests now give out their original amounts of money. (The amounts were halved in the US version.)
* Additionally, a hidden Silver bonus in the Vane library was restored to 100s. (It was reduced to 10s in the US version).
* Jessica's Escape Litany spell now costs the original 1 MP rather than 20 MP.
* The note containing the solution to the first puzzle in Myght's Tower, which was deliberately removed in the US version, has been restored.
* In the US version, the hint text for the final color-order puzzle in the Goddess Tower was changed to an incorrect order that doesn't reflect the actual solution; it's been changed to the proper order.
* Alex's Ocarina is no longer required to finish the game. It's now also possible to give it to Nall, as in the Japanese version.

Lunar 2 - Eternal Blue Complete (PlayStation) -- patch v0 (5/5/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/9uC6mZF.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/psspmicaar50ias/Lunar+2+-+Eternal+Blue+Complete+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through, should work fine.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* Holding down the X button will now continuously advance the dialogue, as in the Japanese version.
* In the Japanese version, the White Tower uses the same background track as the other Pentagulia towers, and White Mask Funk plays below the decks of the Destiny after acquiring it from Leo. The US version shuffles this around so that White Mask Funk plays in the White Tower, and the Destiny uses the world map theme. This has been reverted.
* The Serak Palace now charges the original 100 Silver instead of the US version's 666 Silver.

----------------------------------------------------

If you're feeling masochistic, you might also be interested in this hack I did for April Fools' Day:

Lunar: The Silver Star (Sega CD) -- Worked Design patch v0 (4/1/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/qZlwGVX.png) (http://i.imgur.com/34mLlqJ.png) (http://i.imgur.com/9Sz4H6N.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/s6waj8g8rzxej7f/Lunar+The+Silver+Star+SCD+Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Not tested at all, because pssssht who does that?
Changes:
Spoiler:
* Saving the game now costs Silver (100s times Alex's level). This was by far the best change in the US version of Eternal Blue, and I know everyone will be euphoric to have this same experience in The Silver Star!
* Trying to load checkpoints will now reset the game. While this might appear to be a bug, if you think about it, it's really just a logical extension of the improvements to the save system!
* All enemies have their stats raised substantially.
* All items now cost much more.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Kallisto on January 17, 2017, 11:59:17 pm
Voice redubs are doable considering this was amateur level voice acting back in the day, so I think anyone can pull that off if needed.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Piotyr on January 18, 2017, 12:22:47 am
Got I loved Lunar silver star so much as a kid, I hate that it was butchered so hard, to think I could of been playing an even better game! The Lunar games need a legends of localization.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Midna on January 18, 2017, 12:48:52 am
Good ol' Wrecking Designs.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: SCD on January 18, 2017, 12:50:11 am
This is really cool, I've been waiting for a hack for Popful Mail that would decrease the difficulty back to the way it was. I don't know why they increased it in the first place. You did a excellent job on the hack.

Any plans on making Un-Worked Designs patches for the PSX versions of both Lunar games and Silhouette Mirage including decensoring the game as well?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Supper on January 18, 2017, 01:26:44 am
Voice redubs are doable considering this was amateur level voice acting back in the day, so I think anyone can pull that off if needed.

I'm probably not going to go there (unless someone actually wants to do a real retranslation of any of these), but it's certainly a low bar to pass.

Got I loved Lunar silver star so much as a kid, I hate that it was butchered so hard, to think I could of been playing an even better game! The Lunar games need a legends of localization.

I'd love to see Tomato on the job, but I'm afraid a full analysis would take most of a lifetime...

This is really cool, I've been waiting for a hack for Popful Mail that would decrease the difficulty back to the way it was. I don't know why they increased it in the first place. You did a excellent job on the hack.

Any plans on making Un-Worked Designs patches for the PSX versions of both Lunar games and Silhouette Mirage including decensoring the game as well?

Thanks! w/r/t future projects, we'll see where my interest goes. I've never done any PSX hacking, but something like this might be a reasonable starting point.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Pennywise on January 18, 2017, 09:48:55 am
My favorite WD anecdote was when they accidentally made Exile 2 insanely hard and because the game was so close to release, they said screw it and left it alone.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: ArkthePieKing on January 18, 2017, 01:56:02 pm
Hm. In the event you do decide to go the redub route, I'd be happy to lend my voice talent(?) to the project. Here's a link to my Youtube page if you're interested in what I sound like.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsb2i3YOyXK4ugJG5bCZnqg
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Gary_Oak on January 18, 2017, 03:18:39 pm
Thank you for creating these! Is there a chance you could do the same for Magic Knight Rayearth (Saturn)? A fun Zelda clone that would get cheap in terms of difficulty (notably, the final boss battle).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Cavery210 on January 18, 2017, 03:51:01 pm
Lunar.net has all the differences between the uncut Japanese version and the J2e/4Kids-like abortion that Working Designs did for the Lunar games.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: vivify93 on January 18, 2017, 04:41:26 pm
The proper case in Lunar: Eternal Blue looks fantastic. Do you think you'd do Lunar: The Silver Star to have a matched set?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: KingMike on January 18, 2017, 05:20:30 pm
I don't know why they increased it in the first place.
The official reason was because of people who would beat games quickly and then try to return them to the store as "defective", basically scamming WD.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Tater Bear on January 18, 2017, 05:59:06 pm
I like the idea behind this, but I also understand why sometimes games need to be made harder. If a game is too easy to beat then it becomes boring to play, but if a game is too hard then it is frustrating and not fun. Finding the right balance is hard. I beat Popful mail years ago pretty quickly without much issue, but last year I decided to boot it up again and was surprised by how hard the final boss was (I loaded up my last game save). On replay, I found the last boss to be fairly frustrating and I don't know how I managed to beat it so quickly when I first played the game (Maybe because I played it from the beginning it helped me to refine my skills to the point that the last boss wasn't all that hard). I think I have become a casual gamer over the years, thus leading to me to suck at playing non-RPG games :P .
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: MathUser2929 on January 18, 2017, 06:40:09 pm
I hope you submit these to the site after they've been tested.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: cj iwakura on January 18, 2017, 07:26:36 pm
While I'm a big fan of WD and usually defend their localizations(at least they're not dry like some stuff done nowadays), I have to say the new font looks fantastic. Nice work.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: thainferno305 on January 18, 2017, 09:06:26 pm
So the lunar patch u have it lowers the difficulty
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Midna on January 18, 2017, 09:11:16 pm
Yes, Working Designs jacked up the difficulty on Lunar to arguably unplayably frustrating levels for no readily apparent reason.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: travel27 on January 18, 2017, 09:15:21 pm
Really?  I never found the Lunar: EB or Lunar SSSC or popful mail to be all that hard.  The last boss gives a very nice challenge but otherwise, not too bad.  I remember beating SSSC on level 50 as a teen.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Midna on January 18, 2017, 09:36:58 pm
Lunar.net has all the differences between the uncut Japanese version and the J2e/4Kids-like abortion that Working Designs did for the Lunar games.

Closer to J2e, really, since Working Designs didn't try to censor death, change alcohol to sausages that inexplicably make people act drunk, or replace weapons with Seussian contraptions that totally won't kill you!
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: lexluthermiester on January 19, 2017, 01:26:47 am
This is so cool! I loved Popful Mail! And it always kicked my butt. Don't think too many people were aware of the changes Working Designs made beyond the translations.

Going to give this a spin[pun intended] and see how it plays.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Furluge on January 19, 2017, 02:03:12 pm
I have to say I am a bit put off by all the negativity here. I don't think the localization of Lunar Eternal Blue is what you would call butchered or "j2e or 4kids" based on that catalog of edits. (Linked below) Honestly I think you are going to be hard pressed to find a team that cared as much about the source material and putting out a quality product as WD was. That being said good luck with your project, I hope it turns out to be everything you want it to be. Pointing it out I can see some of the difficulty changes pretty clearly, especially in MP costs. Magic XP to save was clearly a mistake (I would be interested in a patch that just removed this.) as WD admitted themselves in the book for Lunar EBC. The lowercase font does look very nice as well.

Lunar.net has all the differences between the uncut Japanese version and the J2e/4Kids-like abortion that Working Designs did for the Lunar games.

The site you want is actually www.lunar-net.com. (I think Mickey really wanted the .com address. It was hard to get new internet users to visit anything but .coms in the mid 90s, or they would always put .com at the end anyway.) Here is a link to the changes in Lunar Eternal Blue (http://lunar-net.com/eb/eb_diff.php).I think in light of the changes your description of the translation isn't really all that fair. Actually I would go so far as to say it is a very good translation, but to each their own I suppose.

Yes, Working Designs jacked up the difficulty on Lunar to arguably unplayably frustrating levels for no readily apparent reason.

As someone who was the target audience when these games first game out they are not remotely unplayable. They are actually a bit on the easy side for games of the time and don't require lots of level grinding as was the norm back then. I have actually been playing the game again recently (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAaYxVp-iDK4ZZxo5dYPmpzdGKTm_ueI). I remember at the time  friends thought it was strange you beat the game at around level 50. Fighting final bosses who do 9999 regularly was kind of the norm back then.

Got I loved Lunar silver star so much as a kid, I hate that it was butchered so hard, to think I could of been playing an even better game! The Lunar games need a legends of localization.

I don't think you have too much to be disappointed about. Here is the catalog of changes to the original if you would like to see them (http://lunar-net.com/tss/tss_diff.php). Translation is not an exact science so you are going to have a number of changes depending on who does it. The question is more which final version do you personally prefer. I would recommend you look at the changes and judge for yourself.

Voice redubs are doable considering this was amateur level voice acting back in the day, so I think anyone can pull that off if needed.

I think you might consider it amateur voice work now but I don't know if you would call it amateur voice work back in the day. There were a lot fewer good dubs for anime back in 1995 and next to none in video games back then. Even when the PS1 remakes came out the voice work was better than what was the norm. Personally I like the dub work but I can see how someone like Funimation could put together a better one these days, though it is a short list of dubbers who dub songs as well. Pioneer was the last group I remember who made a habit of that.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Supper on January 19, 2017, 03:01:33 pm
Thank you for creating these! Is there a chance you could do the same for Magic Knight Rayearth (Saturn)? A fun Zelda clone that would get cheap in terms of difficulty (notably, the final boss battle).

Not sure yet -- I do like doing the obscure stuff, and pretty much anything on the Saturn fits the bill. Right now I'm taking a look at Vay on the SCD.

The proper case in Lunar: Eternal Blue looks fantastic. Do you think you'd do Lunar: The Silver Star to have a matched set?

Yeah, it only makes sense to do both. I got kind of burned out on EB, so I'm taking a break from Lunar for now. I'm guessing the map/script formats are very similar, so hopefully it'll be a quicker and less painful process for SS.

I like the idea behind this, but I also understand why sometimes games need to be made harder. If a game is too easy to beat then it becomes boring to play, but if a game is too hard then it is frustrating and not fun. Finding the right balance is hard. I beat Popful mail years ago pretty quickly without much issue, but last year I decided to boot it up again and was surprised by how hard the final boss was (I loaded up my last game save). On replay, I found the last boss to be fairly frustrating and I don't know how I managed to beat it so quickly when I first played the game (Maybe because I played it from the beginning it helped me to refine my skills to the point that the last boss wasn't all that hard). I think I have become a casual gamer over the years, thus leading to me to suck at playing non-RPG games :P .

Really?  I never found the Lunar: EB or Lunar SSSC or popful mail to be all that hard.  The last boss gives a very nice challenge but otherwise, not too bad.  I remember beating SSSC on level 50 as a teen.

I certainly don't begrudge anyone for preferring the altered versions, but it kind of sucks that they're the only option if you want to play in English. I might make an alternate version of the Eternal Blue patch that includes the lower-case script but keeps the higher difficulty, though not until I've tested it more -- trying to keep two different patches at parity is more trouble than I want.

While I'm a big fan of WD and usually defend their localizations(at least they're not dry like some stuff done nowadays), I have to say the new font looks fantastic. Nice work.

Funny thing, that. The lower case font was actually already in the game and fully functional (in fact, the entire English font is included in the Japanese version). All I had to do was change the text. I think they did it that way because the lower case letters have a different baseline from the upper case ones, so they look a bit sloppy together, but it's such a ridiculous solution I have a hard time believing it.

On a related note, I might edit the font in the future to fix the baseline issue, though I'll have to write a compressor for the wacky font format first.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who's trying these out. Obviously, send any complaints my way and I'll get them fixed as quick as I can.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: vivify93 on January 19, 2017, 04:00:18 pm
Funny thing, that. The lower case font was actually already in the game and fully functional (in fact, the entire English font is included in the Japanese version). All I had to do was change the text. I think they did it that way because the lower case letters have a different baseline from the upper case ones, so they look a bit sloppy together, but it's such a ridiculous solution I have a hard time believing it.

On a related note, I might edit the font in the future to fix the baseline issue, though I'll have to write a compressor for the wacky font format first.
Oh my god, that's horrible. It reminds me of something similar that happened for Secret of Mana--a lowercase font is fully working for the menu text, but it just wasn't utilized. But that's just the menu text. To make an entire game in all caps is just... wow.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Furluge on January 19, 2017, 04:32:54 pm
Funny thing, that. The lower case font was actually already in the game and fully functional (in fact, the entire English font is included in the Japanese version). All I had to do was change the text. I think they did it that way because the lower case letters have a different baseline from the upper case ones, so they look a bit sloppy together, but it's such a ridiculous solution I have a hard time believing it.

On a related note, I might edit the font in the future to fix the baseline issue, though I'll have to write a compressor for the wacky font format first.

If you really want to know you could just ask Victor Ireland, he would probably tell you why they canned something they did all that work on..  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: thainferno305 on January 19, 2017, 06:01:35 pm
hey ur patch doesnt work i tried it it keeps giving me a error
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Kallisto on January 19, 2017, 08:44:06 pm
Pardon my ignorance, but was it only the SEGA CD versions that were butchered? I've only played the PSX versions (I did try to play the PSP version of Silver Star, but was put off by some of the design choices).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Isao Kronos on January 19, 2017, 08:47:49 pm
hey ur patch doesnt work i tried it it keeps giving me a error

it would help if you went into more details in order to help the patch maker, dawg
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Furluge on January 19, 2017, 09:11:07 pm
Pardon my ignorance, but was it only the SEGA CD versions that were butchered? I've only played the PSX versions (I did try to play the PSP version of Silver Star, but was put off by some of the design choices).

Lunar:SSSC Differences (http://lunar-net.com/sssc/sss_diff.php)
Lunar 2:EBC Diifferences (http://lunar-net.com/ebc/ebc_diff.php)

I wouldn't worry too much about the translation quality in any of the Sega CD or PS1 versions. Seriously, here is one of the differences from the major category.

Quote from: Lunar:SSSC English Working Designs Translation
"Emperor Ghaleon likes pixies, so he had the Vile Tribe capture us for his garden. It's beautiful and peaceful here, but it's still a prison."

Quote from: Lunar:SSSC English Kizyr's Translation
"We pixies who were living in the Frontier were about to die out. But, Ghaleon helped us."

Other examples from major differences include Myght being described as (wd english former, kizy's latter) a cranky old man with a bo problem vs just being a hermit, or Mia supposing Ghaleon loved Althena vs just stating she thinks he wants to replace him. Minor changes include things like asking Jessica about the giant cannon in Mel's basement vs Talking about turning the mansion into a it into a giant fighting robot.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: vivify93 on January 19, 2017, 10:23:17 pm
Hey Supper, do you want me to proper-case Lunar 1 for you? It looks like the dialogue is in plaintext ASCII. I could do this and you could work on whatever difficulty changes there were.

Edit 1 -
(http://i.imgur.com/NjUfoFm.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/fkTlNPY.png)

my soul is leaving my mortal body

Edit 2 - OK, so the one thing I don't think I'll be able to do is edit the captions for FMVs, like when Ramus appears. I'm not finding it in plaintext in the ROM, so it has to be compressed or a graphic or something. For some reason, I also can't find the "LEVEL" text next to a character's level amount? But still, I'm sure I can get the bulk of the work done. Holy shit, Lunar 1 has a lot of text.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: thainferno305 on January 19, 2017, 11:42:13 pm
Dude ur patch for lunar is not working pls fix it I'm using my delta patch and nothing is working
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Isao Kronos on January 19, 2017, 11:44:47 pm
Dude ur patch for lunar is not working pls fix it I'm using my delta patch and nothing is working

dude ur details are vague and don't help the patch maker fix/help fix whatever issue you're having
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: thainferno305 on January 20, 2017, 12:04:48 am
xdelta3: not a VCDIFF input: XD3_INVALID_INPUT
xdelta3: normally this indicates that the source file is incorrect
xdelta3: please verify the source file with sha1sum or equivalent
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Isao Kronos on January 20, 2017, 12:06:07 am
whatever file you're trying to patch isn't the right one or something
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Midna on January 20, 2017, 01:50:32 am
I have to say I am a bit put off by all the negativity here. I don't think the localization of Lunar Eternal Blue is what you would call butchered or "j2e or 4kids" based on that catalog of edits. (Linked below) Honestly I think you are going to be hard pressed to find a team that cared as much about the source material and putting out a quality product as WD was. That being said good luck with your project, I hope it turns out to be everything you want it to be. Pointing it out I can see some of the difficulty changes pretty clearly, especially in MP costs. Magic XP to save was clearly a mistake (I would be interested in a patch that just removed this.) as WD admitted themselves in the book for Lunar EBC. The lowercase font does look very nice as well.

I'm with Supper on this one. I don't think less of people for enjoying Working Designs stuff, but looking at the original script, it's clear there was a little too much localization going on. Taking a relatively serious work and trying to add in comedic elements and pop culture references doesn't normally end well, sorry to say (and in that regard, j2e is a very apt comparison). Plus putting your own names before those of the actual developers is pretty arrogant.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: SamIAm on January 20, 2017, 02:23:05 am
I've played both versions of Sega CD Popful Mail several times.

On the subject of difficulty, I think that Working Designs was sort of on the right track, even if they were more motivated by sales than by good design principles. The original Japanese game is so easy that you could literally beat it in a single afternoon. That's not to say the gameplay is somehow bland or monotonous, because jumping around and swatting enemies is still a lot of fun, but to have paid ~$50 for this and have it be over so quickly would have been at least a little disappointing.

The problem is that Working Designs did not adjust the difficultly smartly. When you have full HP in the original game, it will generally take ten to twenty hits to kill you, while in the US version, it only takes three to five. The trouble with this is that the original game was designed for you to have to sustain a hit or two even when you're playing moderately well, and the post-hit invincibility period was kept very short because the original designers were expecting that the player could easily withstand two or three hits in a row.

The US version isn't really challenging so much as it's tedious. You have to save at every turn and reload practically anytime you get hit since the HP loss is so severe. Enemies can corner and kill you in less than two seconds because of the short invincibility period. The fast and somewhat unpredictable boss fights can be maddening because sometimes it's almost impossible to avoid getting hit, and the bosses are especially good at hitting you in quick succession. None of this is a problem in the original game.

If you ask me, the smarter way to make the difficulty higher would have been to make it take six to ten hits to kill you, lengthen the invincibility period enough to make it easier to retreat after one hit, and maybe restrict saving to certain areas only.

The translation is a whole other can of worms. On one hand, you might be surprised at how many of the jokes actually weren't from Working Designs. NPC guards being inept, Gaw being a fish-junkie, dwarf beards being the "old look", Venuncio's crazy-long name, the elder-dwarf falling asleep mid-sentence...the original game had plenty of jokes. On the other hand, even though they added a lot of questionable material on their own, I think there is something to be said for the way Working Designs got across the wacky, don't-take-this-seriously spirit of the original, which may not have happened if they had done a really straight translation.

No translation is perfect, just like no map-projection is perfect, but for what Popful Mail is in terms of story, I think Working Designs's translation is an example of a successful attempt at this particular kind of approach.

Now, if anybody ever wants to take care of the hacking for a relatively straight retranslation, whether for the Sega CD version or one of the others, I would be first to volunteer to help with the translation itself. I've been working on the Legend of Xanadu games on PC Engine, which are by the same director (well, the first one, anyway), and I absolutely love Popful Mail's old-school Falcom charm.

Anyway, good on the OP for making this patch.  :beer:
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Midna on January 20, 2017, 04:27:48 am
Yeah, generally speaking, the less serious the game the better a comical script rewrite will go over. It's why, say, the Mario RPG's and Splatoon are beloved, but so many people think the localization of Fire Emblem Fates is horrible garbage.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Magma Dragoon on January 20, 2017, 12:32:05 pm
Please work on Exile Wicked Phenomenon next.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Supper on January 20, 2017, 04:15:28 pm
Hey Supper, do you want me to proper-case Lunar 1 for you? It looks like the dialogue is in plaintext ASCII. I could do this and you could work on whatever difficulty changes there were.

Thanks, but I'm fine with doing it myself, honestly. I've been using some tools I made to make it easier (exporting dialogue to text files for easier editing, automatic case conversion while preserving capitalization of certain words, etc.). I'll probably need to adapt them a bit for anything TSS does differently from EB, but it's a lot less tedious than trying to do it directly with a hex editor.

No idea about captions (honestly, it's been years since I played the game and I don't even remember that part), but if the format is anything like EB, they're probably just premade graphics stored in the cutscene itself.

xdelta3: not a VCDIFF input: XD3_INVALID_INPUT
xdelta3: normally this indicates that the source file is incorrect
xdelta3: please verify the source file with sha1sum or equivalent

Yeah, your ISO doesn't match mine. Check the readme for information on how to verify the MD5 sum of the ISO -- if it doesn't match, you can try converting it from BIN/CUE using a different program, or using an ISO or BIN/CUE that was produced by a different ripping program.

Please work on Exile Wicked Phenomenon next.

One at a time, one at a time...

RE: discussion of Working Designs' various practices, I absolutely respect the work they put into producing their versions of the games -- it certainly took more effort and creativity to rewrite Lunar than it would have to do a typical "straight" translation of the era -- but at the end of the day, rewrites aside, they were basically making "Hardtype" ROM hacks and releasing them as if they were the original game. Are they "better" than the originals? Maybe, depending on what you enjoy in a game, but they aren't the same experience at all. I'm making these patches because I want the original experience to be accessible to more people.

The script rewrites are a completely different can of worms that I don't really want to get into, but having extracted and compared the dialogue from the Japanese and English versions of Eternal Blue, I can tell you that the English version changes or makes up a lot of stuff. It's not just the jokes, it's random details all over the place, even though the overall plot is the same. For example, in the Japanese version, Leo's been ordered to kill the "Demon King Lucia" specifically, whereas in the English version he's hunting merely for a nameless "destroyer". Again, putting aside whether the new dialogue is "better" or "worse", it rarely represents the original material except in the broadest strokes. I'll just link you to my writeup at TCRF: https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue (https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: butane bob on January 20, 2017, 05:28:48 pm
Thank you for doing these hacks. Does anyone know if there is anyone working on re-translating some of these games?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Furluge on January 20, 2017, 11:22:30 pm
I'm with Supper on this one. I don't think less of people for enjoying Working Designs stuff, but looking at the original script, it's clear there was a little too much localization going on. Taking a relatively serious work and trying to add in comedic elements and pop culture references doesn't normally end well, sorry to say (and in that regard, j2e is a very apt comparison). Plus putting your own names before those of the actual developers is pretty arrogant.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but it is pretty obvious you have an ax to grind for some reason. I am not really sure you would be happy with any translation intended for a mass audience. Having looked over the differences I personally am not bothered by them and I doubt you are going to find anyone beyond real diehards who want everything literaly translated with liner notes being too upset by it.

Again, putting aside whether the new dialogue is "better" or "worse", it rarely represents the original material except in the broadest strokes. I'll just link you to my writeup at TCRF: https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue (https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue)

You realize I have already posted links to complete write ups of the differences for all the WD games in this thread? This information (http://lunar-net.com/eb/eb_diff.php) has been available for anyone who wants to read it for years. The fact that you are linking me to /another/ writeup shows you aren't actually reading what I'm posting. Why would I need a link to your own personal translation when I already have one from a more trusted source? Also I have to be honest with you, "Maou" vs. "Destroyer" is not the strongest difference you could have gone with there. There's good reason to go with destroyer vs demon king considering the connotations in English. Demon's don't have the same connotation they do in Japanese as they do to an American, largely judeo-christian believing audience.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: vivify93 on January 21, 2017, 12:54:16 am
I absolutely cannot find a Lunar 2 ISO on the internet that has the same MD-5 that your patch calls for,  and whenever I try to patch an ISO that doesn't have the right MD-5 in xdeltaUI, I get the error "xdelta3 not a vcdiff input xd3_invalid_input".

Is there anything that can be done? Like, can you release a patch that converts any Lunar 2 ISO to the proper MD-5 or something?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Midna on January 21, 2017, 04:05:56 am
Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but it is pretty obvious you have an ax to grind for some reason. I am not really sure you would be happy with any translation intended for a mass audience. Having looked over the differences I personally am not bothered by them and I doubt you are going to find anyone beyond real diehards who want everything literaly translated with liner notes being too upset by it.

I have no ax to grind. I am lacking in axes. Fawful is beefless. I just have a tendency to prefer my translations to be as close to the original as possible while still feeling natural in the target language, and adding pop culture references and goofy jokes runs counter to that.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: zuzma on January 21, 2017, 11:08:30 am
I absolutely cannot find a Lunar 2 ISO on the internet that has the same MD-5 that your patch calls for,  and whenever I try to patch an ISO that doesn't have the right MD-5 in xdeltaUI, I get the error "xdelta3 not a vcdiff input xd3_invalid_input".

Is there anything that can be done? Like, can you release a patch that converts any Lunar 2 ISO to the proper MD-5 or something?

It's not online but you can make it yourself. All you need is either a bin/cue dump or IMG version of it then you use bchuck to convert it to an iso/wav dump (it's right in the readme on how to do it). I got the TOSEC IMG release then used cdmage to convert it to a bin/cue.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: vivify93 on January 21, 2017, 11:31:56 am
The thing is, I was acquiring these ISOs and converting them to ISO/WAV format with bchunk as the readme outlined, I tried to patch each one anyway. I still got that "xdelta3 not a vcdiff input xd3_invalid_input" error from xdeltaUI. Not sure what I was doing wrong. I was naming the ISO and WAVs how the readme outlined as well.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Tater Bear on January 21, 2017, 12:09:03 pm
Again, putting aside whether the new dialogue is "better" or "worse", it rarely represents the original material except in the broadest strokes. I'll just link you to my writeup at TCRF: https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue (https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue)

To be honest I found the original Japanese script to be a bit dry and robotic at times. People repeating the same points and characters with little personality. WD script made the NPCs a bit more human and unique. I took a quick glance at your write up and chose a line of yours that clearly demonstrates how you missed the purpose of some of the script changes.

Quote from: Supper
The US version gets the point across, but suddenly not only have we lost the congruence among the different messages, we've invented new details about how this character is a guard who was assigned duties by Rainus/Lunn.

They are repeating nearly verbatim what the prior character said. Who talks like that? It is not natural and makes the people of each area have nearly the same feel... When you visit different areas the people should not mirror each other and should have their own unique characteristics. I love Lunar 1 and 2 (I own every console version), but the truth is that the Japanese scripts are not that well written and should not be treated like masterpieces that can't be tweaked. The games' scripts needed work and thankfully WD made the games a bit more "human", yet kept true to the overall point.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: elmer on January 21, 2017, 01:23:47 pm
Yeah, your ISO doesn't match mine. Check the readme for information on how to verify the MD5 sum of the ISO -- if it doesn't match, you can try converting it from BIN/CUE using a different program, or using an ISO or BIN/CUE that was produced by a different ripping program.

I suspect that a lot of folks are having problems because the instructions in your readme.txt file suggests using bchunk, and in the case of Windows, points to a specific version of bchunk that's on GitHub.

The problem is that the default bchunk builds have a bug in their calculation of the sector lengths when splitting up the .bin into the separate .iso and .wav files.

I found/fixed this when building bchunk for use with my Zeroigar and Legend of Xanadu translations.

I downloaded a .cue/.bin copy of Lunar, and used the https://github.com/extramaster/bchunk release to extract the contents, and the MD5 of the resulting .iso file does not match the 1fab8a8b2d83627ba0c6591e02b451ce that you show as the correct value.

The extracted .iso file has an MD5 of 8a37f225b440eb6a3791b3ba3c1e3678 instead.

BUT ...

When I use my fixed version of bchunk on the same .cue/.bin, then the extracted .iso has the same MD5 that you list.

So I suspect that the problem that people are having isn't with the .cue/.bin, but it's with the version of bchunk that they're using.

Here's the patch to fix the bchunk 1.2.0 source, and also to allow it to compile on Windows with mingw-w64 & msys2 ...

Code: [Select]
diff -Naur bchunk-1.2.0/bchunk.c bchunk-1.2.0-msys2/bchunk.c
--- bchunk-1.2.0/bchunk.c 2004-06-29 21:42:34.000000000 +0100
+++ bchunk-1.2.0-msys2/bchunk.c 2015-07-02 17:35:51.323496400 +0100
@@ -58,7 +58,11 @@
  */
 
 #include <inttypes.h>
-#include <netinet/in.h>
+#ifdef _WIN32
+ #include <winsock2.h>
+#else
+ #include <netinet/in.h>
+#endif
 
 #define bswap_16(x) \
      ((((x) >> 8) & 0xff) | (((x) & 0xff) << 8))
@@ -279,7 +283,7 @@
 
  printf("%2d: %s ", track->num, fname);
 
- if (!(f = fopen(fname, "w"))) {
+ if (!(f = fopen(fname, "wb"))) {
  fprintf(stderr, " Could not fopen track file: %s\n", strerror(errno));
  exit(4);
  }
@@ -289,7 +293,7 @@
  exit(4);
  }
 
- reallen = (track->stopsect - track->startsect + 1) * track->bsize;
+ reallen = (track->stopsect - track->startsect) * track->bsize;
  if (verbose) {
  printf("\n mmc sectors %ld->%ld (%ld)", track->startsect, track->stopsect, track->stopsect - track->startsect + 1);
  printf("\n mmc bytes %ld->%ld (%ld)", track->start, track->stop, track->stop - track->start + 1);
@@ -332,7 +336,7 @@
  sz = track->start;
  sect = track->startsect;
  fl = 0;
- while ((sect <= track->stopsect) && (fread(buf, SECTLEN, 1, bf) > 0)) {
+ while ((sect < track->stopsect) && (fread(buf, SECTLEN, 1, bf) > 0)) {
  if (track->audio) {
  if (swabaudio) {
  /* swap low and high bytes */
@@ -399,7 +403,7 @@
 
  parse_args(argc, argv);
 
- if (!((binf = fopen(binfile, "r")))) {
+ if (!((binf = fopen(binfile, "rb")))) {
  fprintf(stderr, "Could not open BIN %s: %s\n", binfile, strerror(errno));
  return 2;
  }
diff -Naur bchunk-1.2.0/Makefile bchunk-1.2.0-msys2/Makefile
--- bchunk-1.2.0/Makefile 2001-08-02 13:51:40.000000000 +0100
+++ bchunk-1.2.0-msys2/Makefile 2015-04-04 12:38:34.870112100 +0100
@@ -33,7 +33,7 @@
 BITS = bchunk.o
 
 bchunk: $(BITS)
- $(LD) $(LDFLAGS) -o bchunk $(BITS)
+ $(LD) $(LDFLAGS) -o bchunk $(BITS) -lwsock32
 
 bchunk.o: bchunk.c


The thing is, I was acquiring these ISOs and converting them to ISO/WAV format with bchunk as the readme outlined, I tried to patch each one anyway. I still got that "xdelta3 not a vcdiff input xd3_invalid_input" error from xdeltaUI. Not sure what I was doing wrong. I was naming the ISO and WAVs how the readme outlined as well.

Yep, even when I've actually got a .iso file that matches the MD5 that's in the readme.txt, I still can't get the xdelta patch to apply.

I've tried using DeltaPatcher that's in the Utilities here, and I've also tried using the official XDelta releases 3.0.10, 3.0.11 and 3.1.0, and none of them likes that .xdelta file

However, I finally tried a very old version of Xdelta from 2003 (that even the author recommends that you don't use), and it does work, and the resulting patched .iso has the correct MD5 that is given in the readme.txt.

That ancient version of xdelta can be found at ...

http://www.evanjones.ca/software/xdelta-win32.html


****************

So, I suggest that Supper creates his xdelta patch with a more modern version of xdelta, and that he includes a working version of bchunk in the patch distribution.

I can send him a copy of mine, if he wishes. It's only a 13KB executable. It's the same version that's included in the Zeroigar translation patch that's on this site.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: zuzma on January 21, 2017, 01:57:17 pm
Ah sorry about that. I should have explained better how I got it to patch, thanks elmer  :angel:
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: vivify93 on January 22, 2017, 12:39:57 am
Thank you so much, Elmer. I appreciate the directions. I would hope you get in contact with Supper to improve these patches, because I was very vexed and I'm not exactly a newbie to the scene. :) Take care everyone and thanks for your hard work!
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Supper on January 22, 2017, 03:23:41 am
(http://i.imgur.com/rcykLOq.png)
For anyone following along, I've been hammering away at Vay the last few days. Not sure when the patch'll be ready, because WD really did a number on this game: item price boosts, equipment nerfs, massive increases in MP costs, inns that used to cost 4g each now charging steadily rising prices... Not to mention they apparently actually added in some new dungeon gimmicks, or at least the script says that's what happens if I ever manage to get that far. I thought the Japanese version was already unpleasantly grindy, but the US version really takes the cake.

You realize I have already posted links to complete write ups of the differences for all the WD games in this thread? This information (http://lunar-net.com/eb/eb_diff.php) has been available for anyone who wants to read it for years. The fact that you are linking me to /another/ writeup shows you aren't actually reading what I'm posting. Why would I need a link to your own personal translation when I already have one from a more trusted source? Also I have to be honest with you, "Maou" vs. "Destroyer" is not the strongest difference you could have gone with there. There's good reason to go with destroyer vs demon king considering the connotations in English. Demon's don't have the same connotation they do in Japanese as they do to an American, largely judeo-christian believing audience.

I was mostly linking my article because it focuses more on the overall differences than just straight "facts" that changed, but I didn't start this topic to argue about this, you've clearly made up your mind already, and honestly, I don't even care about Lunar very much. My interest in it is largely a product of how flabbergasted I am at the sheer enormity of the localization changes. (Can't deny I didn't read much of the article though -- sorry, but after spending weeks proofreading the entire script, I can't take much more of WD's Lunar right now!)

stuff

Oh, geez, I just grabbed the first "xdelta" I saw in the Debian repos. Turns out that that gets you version 1.1.3, and the newer versions are separate xdelta2/xdelta3 packages. Sorry, I'll update the patches in the near future to use something more modern. I'd really appreciate having your patched bchunk too, since apparently there's no other really-actually-free BIN splitter for Windows.

Thanks for taking the time to look into this so thoroughly.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: cj iwakura on January 22, 2017, 09:57:28 am
The script rewrites are a completely different can of worms that I don't really want to get into, but having extracted and compared the dialogue from the Japanese and English versions of Eternal Blue, I can tell you that the English version changes or makes up a lot of stuff. It's not just the jokes, it's random details all over the place, even though the overall plot is the same. For example, in the Japanese version, Leo's been ordered to kill the "Demon King Lucia" specifically, whereas in the English version he's hunting merely for a nameless "destroyer". Again, putting aside whether the new dialogue is "better" or "worse", it rarely represents the original material except in the broadest strokes. I'll just link you to my writeup at TCRF: https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue (https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue)

Maybe the US version wanted to keep it vague. Regardless, the core plot is intact, and silly jokes are relegated to NPCs, which makes them fun to talk to (IMO). NPC dialogue doesn't need to be slavishly faithful, as long as the major plot elements are. I never minded that.

If you go the opposite route, you wind up with localizations like (shudder) the Namco Legend of Heroes trilogy or Sword Art Online or, nightmare scenario, Super Robot Wars OG.

(https://i0.wp.com/operationrainfall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Super-Robot-Wars-Strange-Line.jpg?resize=610%2C343)


Looking over the comparisons, I also like how Leo is in the US version. He comes across as more stoic and less excitable.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: PresidentLeever on January 22, 2017, 10:14:44 am
Nice work! I know it's the same in the JP version but if someone could also make the scrolling a bit tighter in Popful Mail, I think it would improve the gameplay a lot.

Edit: I really didn't have a problem with the changes to Lunar 2 though, except maybe for the new saving system. And I doubt fans could make better voice acting work.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Piotyr on January 22, 2017, 12:44:06 pm
If you want people to act more human in games they would not act at all like the characters in Lunar, they would have PTSD from their adventures not lots of fun times saving the world. In the end I don't understand a lot of localizers want to "Jazz up" everything, not everything has to be the Simpsons, a story can go without a joke every 5 minutes.
I think I had it with working designs old stuff when I read a thing about their voice actors trying to slip in as many fart noises without getting caught as a little game they played.
Also pop culture jokes take me out of the game hardcore.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: travel27 on January 22, 2017, 01:01:40 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/rcykLOq.png)
For anyone following along, I've been hammering away at Vay the last few days. Not sure when the patch'll be ready, because WD really did a number on this game: item price boosts, equipment nerfs, massive increases in MP costs, inns that used to cost 4g each now charging steadily rising prices... Not to mention they apparently actually added in some new dungeon gimmicks, or at least the script says that's what happens if I ever manage to get that far. I thought the Japanese version was already unpleasantly grindy, but the US version really takes the cake.

I was mostly linking my article because it focuses more on the overall differences than just straight "facts" that changed, but I didn't start this topic to argue about this, you've clearly made up your mind already, and honestly, I don't even care about Lunar very much. My interest in it is largely a product of how flabbergasted I am at the sheer enormity of the localization changes. (Can't deny I didn't read much of the article though -- sorry, but after spending weeks proofreading the entire script, I can't take much more of WD's Lunar right now!)

Oh, geez, I just grabbed the first "xdelta" I saw in the Debian repos. Turns out that that gets you version 1.1.3, and the newer versions are separate xdelta2/xdelta3 packages. Sorry, I'll update the patches in the near future to use something more modern. I'd really appreciate having your patched bchunk too, since apparently there's no other really-actually-free BIN splitter for Windows.

Thanks for taking the time to look into this so thoroughly.

Now Vay, that was harder than the Lunar games.  Way too grindy and everything was expensive.  That game could use a tweak.  I beat it, but it was not easy.  Not super hard, but for sure not easy.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Kallisto on January 22, 2017, 02:03:15 pm
Wait..what exactly happen to the LOH games? I didn't know there was something bad about those games.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: KingMike on January 22, 2017, 03:46:52 pm
I haven't yet played them, but I've read even since the release of the first in the original PSP trilogy (localized by Bandai) complaints about a bad or dull translation.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: cj iwakura on January 22, 2017, 04:29:54 pm
Wait..what exactly happen to the LOH games? I didn't know there was something bad about those games.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AxYbrFUktD4/Tfxo-dgnPcI/AAAAAAAAB_E/Tsf9MNs3g9U/s1600/20110612174250_0.jpg)

It's just... rough. Like it was translated without an editor.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: thainferno305 on January 22, 2017, 06:16:16 pm
Pls help the lunar patch is not working
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Midna on January 22, 2017, 06:43:48 pm
Are you getting any kind of error message? Is it just not patching the ROM correctly? How are you trying to patch it? You need to tell us exactly what's happening or nobody will be able to help you.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: vivify93 on January 22, 2017, 06:45:23 pm
He's probably having the same problem we've been having.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Lentfilms on January 22, 2017, 08:01:03 pm
It's just... rough. Like it was translated without an editor.

More like it was translated by a Japanese intern that knew some English, or maybe a computer. I don't think any amount of editing can fix a bad base translation.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: noneother on January 22, 2017, 08:05:57 pm
I just want to second Exile 2 (Wicked Phenomenon). Working Designs famously destroyed the game balancing by attempting to up the difficulty, to the point where's it said to be impossible to finish without exploiting some glitch. I've always wanted to play it, because the prequel's pretty great. The Sega-CD Lunars and Vay were just fine. I played them a few years back and don't remember struggling with them or grinding at all. It's okay if a character dies every now and then or if you worry whether you can make it, it makes things more exciting. You don't have to buy all the latest equipment or be so overleveled that nothing can hurt you.

They DID hurt Popful Mail, I'll grant you that, since enemies took so many hits to kill. But Exile 2 is the only game they legit broke.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: arhesbranwin on January 24, 2017, 12:21:13 am
I played through all of these on the Sega-CD (and before on the TG-CD from Working Designs).  Never found Lunar or Lunar 2 too difficult, but don't bring up Vay.  Even with over-leveled characters, only your lead party member could do any real damage to the final boss.  The only thing the other three could do was boost his strength and/or heal and otherwise just sit there since they were so useless.  Dragon Slayer (Legend of Heroes 2 on the TG-CD) had the same issue with it's bosses for the most part, but at least I really enjoyed the cheesy dubbing they did.  I can still recall lines from it 20 years after playing it.

Cosmic Fantasy II had similar issues, especially when you fist play as Babette alone.  I'm lucky I found some exploit...I mean item...called the Magic Duster in the initial dungeon she goes through that can used as many times as you liked and did decent damage to all enemies 50-60% of the time (the rest of the time doing none).

Now Vasteel, that was a masterpiece.  I want more games like that.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Furluge on January 24, 2017, 10:33:00 pm
Looks like I'll be finishing the Epilogue of the "arguably unplayably, frustratingly difficult" Lunar Eternal Blue for tomorrow's broadcast.  :thumbsup: Got to that last dungeon and heard that Star Dragon tower  track and could feel how close that ending was.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Supper on January 25, 2017, 12:18:29 am
After a crazy week where every time I thought I was done, some even more wild and inexplicable new change I had to fix popped up, I'm happy to finally release the v0 patch for Vay, as well as the v1 and v2 patches for Lunar: Eternal Blue and Popful Mail!

Vay (Sega CD) -- patch v0 (1/24/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/zp3zO7b.png) (http://i.imgur.com/uTRg1Ll.png) (http://i.imgur.com/I8qTveX.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/agbuib0wsrxzidm/Vay+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through, hopefully problem-free.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* Enemy stats are restored to what they were in the Japanese game.
* Spell MP costs are reduced to their original values.
* Stat bonuses given by equipment are restored to their original levels.
* Inn costs are reduced to the original 4g.
* HP and MP are no longer restored on level up.
* The chest in the hidden Lorath Castle vault that contains 1,500g in the US version now contains 1,000g, per the original.
* Lynx's bar tab has been reduced from 20,000g to the original 1,000g.
* The US version inserted an event that caused an instant game over if Sirufa's teleportation was used without having all party members equipped with "Filtration Masks". This no longer occurs.
* The "Gold Vortex" chest in Vaygess has been replaced with its original contents.
* The US version moved the intro cutscene to before the title screen and made it unskippable if no save data exists. This patch leaves it before the title screen, but makes it skippable.

Lunar: Eternal Blue (Sega CD) -- patch v1 (1/24/17) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/1f0b7bs9wnnmqku/Lunar+Eternal+Blue+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip)
Popful Mail (Sega CD) -- patch v2 (1/24/17) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/bao2yprh5d6511z/Popful+Mail+Un-Worked+Design+v2.zip)

The new Eternal Blue and Popful Mail patches are unchanged in terms of content, but per the feedback in this topic, I've overhauled the patching procedure. In addition to using modern xdelta and bundling a working bchunk.exe -- big, big thanks to elmer for discovering this issue and providing the fixed binary -- I've bundled xdelta and added some .bat files that should make patching as easy as a drag-and-drop on Windows. See the "Automatic Patching" section of the readme files for details. All of this should fix the errors people have been reporting, so if you've been having patching issues, download the new versions.

Now, to talk about Vay for a bit:

You'll notice the changes in this game are a mixed bag -- the equipment was noticeably weakened, but often the buy/sell prices were also slashed, sometimes by a lot (e.g. 500,000g to 110,000g for God Blade/Odin's Blade). Arguably, the ultimate effect is basically the same (you're grinding for money in the Japanese version and levels in the US version), though the US version is still much harder due to the enemy stat changes and massive, massive increases in MP costs. (Balm: 2->10 MP, Restore: 18->80 MP, Healall: 30->140 MP!)

I changed back everything I could find, but I have a feeling there's stuff I missed. Particularly, a treasure chest at the very beginning of the game was changed (1000g to 1500g), and I doubt that was the only one, but my spot checks didn't turn up any more differences. If anyone happens to know of any other gameplay changes, give me a shout, since I went to all the trouble of writing tools to handle the script file compression and I might as well use them.

Oh, and while I was working on this, I found a cheat code that Working Designs added to the US version of the game but apparently never released, as it doesn't seem to be documented anywhere. At the start of the game, enter the hidden vault (from the starting room, go through the door in the north curtain, then go to the northwest corner of that room and walk east through the invisible passage). Go to the room with the three treasure chests and stand here:

(http://i.imgur.com/OA2sp4k.png)

Now, on controller 2, press A, B, C, and Start simultaneously. This leads to an "animation test" room where you can inspect the walls to watch the game's cutscenes, and get typical Working Designs commentary like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/GAXTKNo.png)

Interestingly, two of the cutscenes are labeled "outtakes", and appear to actually be literally cut scenes -- they're never played anywhere, even in the Japanese version. They weren't dubbed for the US version and instead play a very nasty buzzing noise, which I suspect is why the access code for this was never released.

Anyway, thanks to everyone in this topic who's provided feedback. I haven't decided what to do next yet. Maybe Silver Star, maybe not. I'm seeing a lot of requests for Exile II, so I guess I'll look into that at some point, although working on a game for a system even more obscure than the Sega CD is probably going to make doing the patch more of a challenge...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: lexluthermiester on January 25, 2017, 07:16:42 am
After a crazy week where every time I thought I was done, some even more wild and inexplicable new change I had to fix popped up, I'm happy to finally release the v0 patch for Vay, as well as the v1 and v2 patches for Lunar: Eternal Blue and Popful Mail!

Vay (Sega CD) -- patch v0 (1/24/17) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/agbuib0wsrxzidm/Vay+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Lunar: Eternal Blue (Sega CD) -- patch v1 (1/24/17) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/1f0b7bs9wnnmqku/Lunar+Eternal+Blue+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip)
Popful Mail (Sega CD) -- patch v2 (1/24/17) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/bao2yprh5d6511z/Popful+Mail+Un-Worked+Design+v2.zip)

The new Eternal Blue and Popful Mail patches are unchanged in terms of content, but per the feedback in this topic, I've overhauled the patching procedure. In addition to using modern xdelta and bundling a working bchunk.exe -- big, big thanks to elmer for discovering this issue and providing the fixed binary -- I've bundled xdelta and added some .bat files that should make patching as easy as a drag-and-drop on Windows. See the "Automatic Patching" section of the readme files for details. All of this should fix the errors people have been reporting, so if you've been having patching issues, download the new versions.

Hey thanks for the new patches! The Popful Mail patch was giving me hell. Thought it was something I was doing wrong. Hopefully this works better! Will chime in to confirm later.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: Spooniest on January 25, 2017, 08:07:15 am
My post is for these purposes: subscribe to the thread. I am for it. Express my opinion. I would like to. Enjoy myself. I always try.

Working Designs is a little bit strange, to say the least. The voice acting in their games was brought up by someone; yes, it's not Lawrence Olivier, but to be honest, it kind of is compared to the acting in other games at that time.* Fuck, it's practically Freddie Mercury compared to the acting in other games of the time, with the exception of probably Wing Commander (gotta love them Kilrathi. Also, Luke Skywalker! Lordy McGordy). I kind of enjoy the pop culture/crude jokes sometimes, but not all the time, and frankly, I do not want to take a class in how to understand Japanese culture and humor, I want to play a European High Fantasy story that is moderately challenging and has something to say about life.

The Japanese Culture in RPGs is there for Japanese people who either do not get or wish to make fun of Europe, where the games are sort of set...well, their settings are based on Europe.

To treat these cultural references as something that the Japanese are trying to hide from the world is to misunderstand why they used them; Japanese did not grow up in European culture, they wouldn't get what the game is saying or doing otherwise.

Let me put this in real world context; How many countries and cultures are present in Japan? That's right, exactly one. How many countries and cultures are present in Europe? A shitload, you guessed it. Take it to a physical level. How big is Japan? Like, if you just walked, how long would it take to basically walk across all four of the big islands? Now, how big is Europe?

See where I'm going with this? The Japanese cultural stuff is so that Japanese kids will get what a European Fantasy Setting is all about. WE DON'T NEED IT, WE GREW UP IN EUROPEAN (Or European Colonial) CULTURE.

:) I understand that nostalgia can be a bit of a sacred cow for people, but it is important to know your audience above knowing yourself.

*Just in case you don't believe me, actually... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnQtBowQdDY)

Uh...what was the actor who played Alex's name? Ashley Angel?

He sounds like he just shit himself.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: ze10 on January 25, 2017, 08:40:44 am
I've beaten Vay a few years ago. The difficulty was really bullshit and the game ended up not being fun at all... the MP cost for spells really bothered me. This patch should make things more interesting :D
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: Kallisto on January 25, 2017, 12:08:36 pm
I always liked the 2nd to last final area music, and final battle music in Vay.

Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: thainferno305 on January 25, 2017, 02:52:24 pm
just tested lunar u did a great job this is much better then the psx version
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: Spooniest on January 25, 2017, 04:34:29 pm
I hope my post didn't come off as too abrasive?

I said in the start of it; I am for the project. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzwMhARbRG4)

I had no idea that the difficulty was so amplified, and in such a perfunctory way. The numbers by which certain things were raised or lowered suggest that they wanted it to be an easy, quick programming edit.

:/ Points off for laziness.

Anyhow, I'll be eager to see what these games were supposed to play like. :D
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: Furluge on January 25, 2017, 08:16:24 pm
Uh...what was the actor who played Alex's name? Ashley Angel?

He sounds like he just shit himself.

Yeah Ashley Angel is Alex in L:TSS and L:SSSC. For more lulz look up "O-Town" XD

Quote from: Now imagine if you will this scene...
Magic Emeperor: Tell me Alex, did ol' Victor Ireland tell you what happened to your voice actor.
Alex: He told me enough! He told me you killed him!
Emperor reveals helmet to reveal Ashely Angel
Ashley Angel: No Alex, I am your voice actor.
Alex: That's not true, that's impossible!
Ashley Angel: Come with me Alex, join O-town!
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: Supper on January 26, 2017, 01:55:56 am
Against my better judgment, I decided to look into the Exile games, read over some PCECD docs, and somehow wound up writing my own little HuC6280 disassembler when da65 wouldn't do what I wanted. (I know there are better tools available, I really just wanted to give it a go). Since PCECD games don't use a standard file system like Sega CD games, this will probably be more challenging to work with, but I'm really getting ahead of myself since I haven't even played the game yet.

I've beaten Vay a few years ago. The difficulty was really bullshit and the game ended up not being fun at all... the MP cost for spells really bothered me. This patch should make things more interesting :D

IMO the Japanese version is better, but still not a stellar game. I'm not fond of the high encounter rate, especially since this is one of those games where no matter how much stronger you are than the enemy, you always have the same fixed chance of escaping. The equipment prices get really out of hand toward the end of the game, too. But I've fallen out of love with JRPGs these days, so maybe you'll enjoy it more.

I always liked the 2nd to last final area music, and final battle music in Vay.

Yeah, anywhere they let the composer do that techno-dance stuff is great. Shoulda scored the whole game that way.

just tested lunar u did a great job this is much better then the psx version

Thanks, glad to hear it's working for you! I'll have to try the PSX version some time once I've detoxed from the SCD patch...

I hope my post didn't come off as too abrasive?

I said in the start of it; I am for the project. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzwMhARbRG4)

I had no idea that the difficulty was so amplified, and in such a perfunctory way. The numbers by which certain things were raised or lowered suggest that they wanted it to be an easy, quick programming edit.

:/ Points off for laziness.

Anyhow, I'll be eager to see what these games were supposed to play like. :D

From what I've looked at so far, the Lunar games are actually some of Working Designs' least edited as far as gameplay goes. They didn't add in instant game overs or edit equipment stats like in Vay, and the enemy stat boosts are really quite tame compared to what they did with Popful Mail. On the other hand, it's pretty sad that "all enemies are at least 25% stronger" is their high-water mark.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: vivify93 on January 26, 2017, 09:15:33 am
I also got Lunar 2 to work and recompiled it into a BIN/CUE with Daemon Tools and ImgBurn. It works amazingly; I love that I can save at any time I want to. Thanks for all your hard work. When's Lunar 1? Kidding on that last bit. :p
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: Spooniest on January 27, 2017, 12:32:54 pm
I also got Lunar 2 to work and recompiled it into a BIN/CUE with Daemon Tools and ImgBurn. It works amazingly; I love that I can save at any time I want to. Thanks for all your hard work. When's Lunar 1? Kidding on that last bit. :p

There's a new moon tomorrow night? :D

Lunar was the first time a game threw a girl at me that I thought was worth saving. Luna is a fully fleshed out romantic interest in a video game. Name one that came before it and I'll give you this cookie:  :cookie:
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: butane bob on January 28, 2017, 02:43:50 am
Lunar 2 froze a few hours in, right when I spoke to Ronfar for the first time. First it showed a few empty dialogue boxes then it just outright seized with a bunch of garbage text characters randomly placed on screen. Using win7 x64, Genesis Plus core via Retroarch.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: lexluthermiester on January 28, 2017, 06:30:08 am
Lunar 2 froze a few hours in, right when I spoke to Ronfar for the first time. First it showed a few empty dialogue boxes then it just outright seized with a bunch of garbage text characters randomly placed on screen. Using win7 x64, Genesis Plus core via Retroarch.

It's likely that you used the wrong ISO. Did you check the MD5?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: Piotyr on January 28, 2017, 02:58:42 pm
So how much did Working Designs tamper with the Arc the lad games? I remember those games having less pointless jokes etc. It was later in the companies life so maybe they took it more seriously?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Vay)
Post by: butane bob on January 28, 2017, 06:41:38 pm
Alright i got a new copy of the game. Patched it manually this time (before and after patching md5's were correct), and it still crashes at the same part. :\ Has anyone gotten past this point in the game where you speak with Ronfar?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile)
Post by: Supper on January 28, 2017, 07:56:37 pm
Exile patch is out, but first let me address this:

Alright i got a new copy of the game. Patched it manually this time (before and after patching md5's were correct), and it still crashes at the same part. :\ Has anyone gotten past this point in the game where you speak with Ronfar?

It's not a problem with your ISO, it means I screwed up editing the script. Sorry for the issue, but thanks for finding it. It should be an easy fix, so sit tight -- I'll take a look right away and hopefully edit the new patch version into this post within an hour or so. I've been putting off doing a full run through the game, but I guess I need to...

EDIT: Fixed this issue. Here's patch v2. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/608j7yj80950ly5/Lunar+Eternal+Blue+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v2.zip) Sorry for the trouble, but it's hard to test everything when the game just has tons and tons of dialogue like this.

That said, the PCE CD turned out to be easier to work with than I feared, so here's Exile:

Exile (PC Engine CD/TurboGrafx-CD) -- patch v0 (1/28/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/XL2Fg2G.png) (http://i.imgur.com/sF80wx7.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/n09rd0czq2q90qw/Exile+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through, hopefully problem-free.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All enemies have their stats restored to what they were in the Japanese version.
* The "Warp" spell that returns Sadler to the start of the current dungeon has been re-enabled.
* The two chests in the game that contain gold have been restored to their original amounts (900g -> 500g, 2000g -> 2500g).

This is an early Working Designs effort, and it shows. The script isn't nearly as heavily rewritten as in later games, and the difficulty edits are a bit less all-encompassing.

For this game, I can at least see why WD wanted to change up the enemy stats, even if it doesn't sit well with me philosophically. The game balance is definitely off in the Japanese version, with most enemies doing the minimum 3 damage to you as long as you're even decently equipped. There's very rarely any need to use magic. Unfortunately, the game's flaws go significantly beyond that -- you're constantly backtracking and/or running around the overworld instead of playing the more interesting action sequences, and in the end it would take more than a few tweaks to make this a good game. (Sorry to anyone who likes it.) For me, the US version ends up being the same thing, but with even more tedium.

Removing the Warp spell was just plain ridiculous, though. The last thing this game needed was more backtracking.

Also, there's a hidden cameo from Valis that I can't find documented anywhere, though I can't believe I'm the first to find it. Anyone seen this before?

(http://i.imgur.com/UkHwrg1.png)

Go to Mosnee Pass, stand here, and go directly north. There's an invisible path through the forest.

(http://i.imgur.com/AMH2JWp.png)

You'll reach this clearing, where Valis shows up and talks about how she's Yuko from Valis and came to France because she got tired of fighting. Except in the US version, where she talks about how "Exile 2: THE REVENGE" is going to be on the Super-CD. And there's a needlessly elaborate animation of her changing from her school uniform into bikini armor. Whatever.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile)
Post by: Spooniest on January 28, 2017, 08:19:21 pm
:|

Did you just find a secret in a game that nobody ever played really except die hard Turbo CD fans? That is decades old?

This has to be some sort of singularity level obscurity, goodness.

I did play Valis 1 all the way through though I believe, about 4 years ago?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile)
Post by: butane bob on January 28, 2017, 08:54:05 pm
Exile patch is out, but first let me address this:

It's not a problem with your ISO, it means I screwed up editing the script.

Man, that's ok. It's just good to know it wasn't something on my end. Thanks for the update. :)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile)
Post by: ze10 on January 29, 2017, 01:11:42 am
Wasn't Exile for TGCD that one almost impossible game because the stats of enemies later in the game scaled up ridiculously because they didn't test the game before releasing it?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile)
Post by: Magma Dragoon on January 29, 2017, 10:23:19 am
Wasn't Exile for TGCD that one almost impossible game because the stats of enemies later in the game scaled up ridiculously because they didn't test the game before releasing it?

Nope, that was Exile: Wicked Phenomenon, which is a sequel to this game.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile)
Post by: noneother on January 29, 2017, 11:00:18 pm
Wait, is that a patch for the first Exile? Cause that game was totally fine, what everybody was asking about was Exile 2 (aka Wicked Phenomenon) ;D  It was destroyed by the stat changes in a way that rendered it almost literally unplayable. And no offense either, but you're wrong about it, it's totally awesome, including (and especially) the RPG parts.

Someone asked about Arc the Lad: I get the feeling few changes were made with that trilogy. Working Designs had pretty much learned from their mistakes by the 32-bit era and did pretty damn good work generally. Growlanser Generations' a great example of that. They did jazz up Albert Odyssey on the Sega Saturn, but in this case I would argue it helped. The jokes made sense within the game world rather than, say, reference Bill Clinton or Rush Limbaugh, and I remember greatly enjoying what could have been a mediocre gaiden.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile)
Post by: Supper on January 31, 2017, 04:05:04 am
Wait, is that a patch for the first Exile? Cause that game was totally fine, what everybody was asking about was Exile 2 (aka Wicked Phenomenon) ;D  It was destroyed by the stat changes in a way that rendered it almost literally unplayable. And no offense either, but you're wrong about it, it's totally awesome, including (and especially) the RPG parts.

We'll have to agree to disagree there (honestly, I think I'm losing the patience for video games in general), but never mind that!

Exile II / Exile: Wicked Phenomenon (PC Engine CD/TurboGrafx-CD) -- patch v0 (1/31/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/IoOOnw9.png) (http://i.imgur.com/yBAtgPK.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/d8qjz0vmcs8v9f8/Exile+II+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through, hopefully problem-free.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All enemies have their stats restored to what they were in the Japanese version.

This one was a lot trickier to do than the first Exile. Instead of using stat tables, this game uses a bizarre combination of direct manipulations in code with occasional tables specific to certain enemies. I used some simple heuristic methods to make the vast majority of the changes automatically, then did the rest by hand. I got it done it under three days, so I guess it wasn't too bad.

This was one of the most frequently requested patches, so hopefully you'll all enjoy it. And it'll work right. But man, are the stat changes ridiculous in this one. Here's a random example, not even one of the worst:

Code: [Select]
Entry b7: c02576 / c02576
atk:  47 -> 125
def:  1 -> 35
hp:   108 -> 190
exp:  35 -> 38
gold: 30 -> 40

"Mmm, this'll work fine, right? OK, let's ship it."

I've started testing Eternal Blue and found out some of the multiple-choice prompts got broken (not in a game-ending way) because of how I used line breaks to pad out the inserted lines. Whenever I manage to get through a full run, I'll upload a new version fixing that and any other outstanding issues I find. If anyone comes across any more stuff that prevents the game from being completed, let me know and I'll fix it ASAP.

Haven't decided what I'll work on in the meantime.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: GHANMI on January 31, 2017, 09:36:09 am
Thanks a lot for your hard work, Supper.
Wrecking Designs really mangled lots of games (Silhouette Mirage, Alundra, ...) and it's sad that other companies wanted to emulate their less savory practices (like ill-timed real life preaching and memes, or Atlus making all bosses in Thousand Arms as bullet sponges in the US version).

Do you think restoring the subtitles for the cutscenes in Lunar 1 is possible, assuming you did look at it before? I fear they cut the entire programming for that one.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: SCD on January 31, 2017, 09:45:38 am
I forgot they butchered Alundra, that's another game that should get fix.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile)
Post by: Spooniest on January 31, 2017, 11:12:59 am
CRAPTON OF WORK DONE

Take a day off I'd say. You've been working really hard on this and you said somewhere your patience is getting thin. Don't burn yourself out man...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile)
Post by: elmer on January 31, 2017, 12:16:02 pm
Take a day off I'd say. You've been working really hard on this and you said somewhere your patience is getting thin. Don't burn yourself out man...

Yeah, you've done an AMAZING amount in work in a really short space of time.

I have no idea what's driving you so hard, but this is all "volunteer" work, it should be "fun". Nobody is going to fault you for taking some time off to relax.

Heck, if you never, ever, make another patch ... what you've done in the last few weeks is already a huge contribution to gaming.

Whether some folks feel that changes are needed or not, you've given the people that do the chance to see what it would have been like if WD hadn't made those changes. That's brilliant!  ;D
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Kallisto on January 31, 2017, 01:38:25 pm
I forgot they butchered Alundra, that's another game that should get fix.

Okay now that surprises me..that game even got it's script effed with?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Synnae on January 31, 2017, 03:00:11 pm
I've not played all games published by Working Designs yet, but I did play Popful Mail all the way to the end, then did the same to the Japanese version, and I can safely say the difficulty of the former is retarded. It's true that the JP version is too easy, but I'd still rather play it over the localized version any day of the week.

Thank you for all your contributions, Supper. You worked hard and deserve a trophy for all your efforts. :)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Supper on January 31, 2017, 04:19:06 pm
Thanks a lot for your hard work, Supper.
Wrecking Designs really mangled lots of games (Silhouette Mirage, Alundra, ...) and it's sad that other companies wanted to emulate their less savory practices (like ill-timed real life preaching and memes, or Atlus making all bosses in Thousand Arms as bullet sponges in the US version).

Do you think restoring the subtitles for the cutscenes in Lunar 1 is possible, assuming you did look at it before? I fear they cut the entire programming for that one.

Thanks. I haven't looked at the cutscene formats yet, mostly because they're necessarily complex and will probably require a lot of work to edit, but I'd hope that the changes essentially amount to removing some "display text" operations from the cutscene script (as opposed to commenting out the display routine entirely). No telling at this point, though.

Take a day off I'd say. You've been working really hard on this and you said somewhere your patience is getting thin. Don't burn yourself out man...
Yeah, you've done an AMAZING amount in work in a really short space of time.

I have no idea what's driving you so hard, but this is all "volunteer" work, it should be "fun". Nobody is going to fault you for taking some time off to relax.

Heck, if you never, ever, make another patch ... what you've done in the last few weeks is already a huge contribution to gaming.

Whether some folks feel that changes are needed or not, you've given the people that do the chance to see what it would have been like if WD hadn't made those changes. That's brilliant!  ;D

Heh. Thanks, but don't stroke my ego too much, that never ends well ;)

My comment about losing patience was referring to playing the games rather than making the hacks -- I wouldn't be making these if I wasn't enjoying it! -- but thanks for the concern. I don't expect to keep this pace up long-term, and really, after spending so long on Eternal Blue I wasn't expecting these other games to go so quickly.

It's best for me to keep busy one way or the other, though. If I drop a project for too long, I rarely get back to it. On that note, I think I might actually take a little time off of this to put the finishing touches on Layla: The Iris Missions, since it's been a month now since the last release.

Okay now that surprises me..that game even got it's script effed with?

I haven't played their later games, but from what I've heard they were doing rewrites (with varying degrees of severity) up to at least Silhouette Mirage. Guess I'll find out if I ever work on those.

I've not played all games published by Working Designs yet, but I did play Popful Mail all the way to the end, then did the same to the Japanese version, and I can safely say the difficulty of the former is retarded. It's true that the JP version is too easy, but I'd still rather play it over the localized version any day of the week.

Thank you for all your contributions, Supper. You worked hard and deserve a trophy for all your efforts. :)

Thanks! Yeah, I feel like WD butchered the difficulty even worse than usual for side-scrolling RPGs like Popful Mail and Exile. It's especially bad in Popful Mail, where you can't grind for higher stats to try to make up for the difficulty.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: noneother on January 31, 2017, 06:44:00 pm
I forgot they butchered Alundra, that's another game that should get fix.

Wait, what they did they do to "butcher" Alundra? That's one of my favorite games. Combat wasn't hard so I doubt they messed with it, I don't recall any glaring issue with the text either...

Supper-Awesome! I'll finally get to play Exile 2. And yeah, there are claims the game is literally unbeatable in the official release because they just made those changes so haphazardly.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: thainferno305 on January 31, 2017, 07:29:07 pm
popmail patch v2 is having patching problems
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Midna on January 31, 2017, 07:34:42 pm
popmail patch v2 is having patching problems

What problems specifically. You have been told, multiple times, that we cannot help you unless you specify what the problem is.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: schtolteheim on January 31, 2017, 10:45:37 pm
About Alundra. I read that one of the miners was named Jaylen supposedly in reference to Jay Leno (the char's portrait somewhat looks like him), which falls in line with what WD is known for.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Real_Character on February 01, 2017, 11:11:00 am
Sounds like a good project, but it's not accurate to pin this on Working Designs. It's highly unlikely that Working Designs just arbitrarily pulled out difficulty edits out of their ass. If you know about that part of gaming history, very often the Japanese licensers compelled the localizations for the US (and perhaps even Europe) to ramp up the difficulty as a strike against rentals. The Japanese game industry lobbyists failed to ban game rentals in the US as they did in Japan, so the difficulty screwups were an attempt to combat game rentals. Sega was particularly bad in this respect (just look at what they did to Streets of Rage 3), but not the only one. Look it up if you don't believe me.

As far as the goofy dialogue, I think it's an improvement as an English localization. If you think the original games contain no goofy humor or pop culture references, you are not very informed. But it's not funny at all if you don't get the humor or references, so might as well change things. Re-translations can go too far the other way with literal translations that make no sense, or just pretentious BS like calling General Leo "Shogun Leo", as in the patch of FFVI I slammed. Also, the difficulty in these Working Designs games was high but not unplayable. NES games were tougher. You might argue the Japanese originals were too easy, but they had more money to burn on a ton of games at the time, or more willing to, similar to how today's games are easy to the point where they have a tutorial to teach you how to move.

But as I said, these patches are still a worthy project for those interested.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Supper on February 01, 2017, 05:00:39 pm
Sounds like a good project, but it's not accurate to pin this on Working Designs. It's highly unlikely that Working Designs just arbitrarily pulled out difficulty edits out of their ass. If you know about that part of gaming history, very often the Japanese licensers compelled the localizations for the US (and perhaps even Europe) to ramp up the difficulty as a strike against rentals. The Japanese game industry lobbyists failed to ban game rentals in the US as they did in Japan, so the difficulty screwups were an attempt to combat game rentals. Sega was particularly bad in this respect (just look at what they did to Streets of Rage 3), but not the only one. Look it up if you don't believe me.

As far as the goofy dialogue, I think it's an improvement as an English localization. If you think the original games contain no goofy humor or pop culture references, you are not very informed. But it's not funny at all if you don't get the humor or references, so might as well change things. Re-translations can go too far the other way with literal translations that make no sense, or just pretentious BS like calling General Leo "Shogun Leo", as in the patch of FFVI I slammed. Also, the difficulty in these Working Designs games was high but not unplayable. NES games were tougher. You might argue the Japanese originals were too easy, but they had more money to burn on a ton of games at the time, or more willing to, similar to how today's games are easy to the point where they have a tutorial to teach you how to move.

But as I said, these patches are still a worthy project for those interested.

Well, the story I've heard mentioned a couple of times is that according to the "official" WD explanation, the increased difficulty was designed to prevent people from beating the games "too quickly", being dissatisfied, and returning them to the store. I haven't seen a source for that, so I'd appreciate it if anyone can link me to wherever Vic (presumably) said it. In any case, they kept doing the difficulty changes very consistently, for many years, for games licensed from many different publishers, so I doubt it was just due to their hands being contractually tied.

I didn't know about rental games being banned in Japan, though -- that's really nuts. Seems like Japanese law is way too corporate-friendly, at least when it comes to games. There's that, the Tokimeki Memorial memory card case, the DS flashcard ban, and probably more stuff I haven't heard of.

As for Lunar... well, I can and have said a lot about the script rewrites and don't care to again, especially since I don't seem to be changing any minds, but I'll specifically cover one of the points you raised. Of course the original game has jokes in it, like virtually any JRPG. Working Designs certainly didn't invent Mystere, the Bunny Karate stuff, etc. But to say that all or even most of the jokes in the US version are "localizations" of the Japanese ones is simply not right. Here's a book you can read in Dalton:

Quote
「おいしい魚料理」

だれにでも かんたんにできる
とってもヘルシーな
魚料理です‥‥

Ruby:
わぁ! ヒイロぉ
この本 ほしいよぉ!

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that translates as:

Quote
"Delicious Fish Dishes"

These are very healthy fish dishes anyone can easily make...

Ruby:
Wow! Hirooo, I want this book!

The "joke" is that Ruby loves fish, see? Not very funny, I'll grant you (though it does help set up a much later scene). Here's what the line becomes in the US version:

Quote
   ABDOMINAL DISCOMFORT
        VOLUME 1
 FERAL FLATULENCE CONTROL

Ruby:
HIRO! I THINK GRANDPA NEEDS
THIS BOOK!

Now, I don't know more than the absolute rudiments of Japanese, but I can certainly tell you that there's no secret hidden cultural reference in the original text that the US version is trying to convey the spirit of here. The new joke is just there to "make it funnier". Depending on your sense of humor, maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but that's not the point. Regardless of whether it's "better" or not, it simply doesn't match the original dialogue by any stretch of the imagination, and I can tell you from having looked that the majority of the jokes in the US version are "made up" in this fashion.

I really, really don't want to derail this thread into an argument over Lunar's script, so I'll stop myself here before I can go on about the rewrites to non-throwaway dialogue. If anyone is interested in comparing the JP/EN scripts for themself, I can upload my dialogue extraction tools.

Anyhow, thanks for your support. Just trying to give people more options here.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: cj iwakura on February 01, 2017, 07:34:32 pm
Vic actually posts pretty often in the Gaijinworks MB, could always ask him directly.

His thoughts on some of the jokes:
Quote
But the games take place in our future or an alternate timeline of our future, so those things COULD easily apply. People never really consider that. Shigema wussed out in making the connection more obvious (apologizing for it at dinner one night in Japan), though, with the name of the first Dragonmaster in the legend. You can figure out the intent if you think about it, but the name was originally something else.


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3nsWCVUEAA8jgk.jpg)

I really can't be mad at a line like that, though.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile
Post by: Recapnation on February 01, 2017, 09:11:11 pm
If lines like that don't go against the player's immersion, what does.

I know shit about hacking or coding, but I'd like to join the thanksgiving bunch, since this can't be an easy task -- otherwise we would have had this like ten years ago at least.

Even though it's true some times the changes were made by the Japanese studios themselves under licensees' petition (and some times even the games were made with the US market in mind first and foremost, hence poorly-balanced pieces like Gaiares or Actraiser 2), Japanese just didn't give a shit about licensees' or daughters' bastardizations. They didn't even consider them the same games, since they indeed weren't. And those licensees simply didn't have a clue on game design even though they thought they did. Anyway, the rental thingie sounds like a good reason to be afraid and I agree that the original games were, many times, too easy or just didn't explain themselves too well (how many people in this day and age do still press "continue" in arcade-style games after a "game over" only because the option is there), but the appreciation (respect) for the game and its authors should always prevail, and rarely did, particulary in WD's offerings, though sadly there are many more. This thread is a good show and his author is the best thing the subject got after all these years. So thanks again.

(I'd like to also throw in a mention/suggestion for Sega Saturn titles -- Magic Knight Rayearth, Albert Odyssey: Legend of Eldean, not sure if something else, which seem sadly forgotten here I guess for being on a not-too-popular system.)

Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: cj iwakura on February 01, 2017, 10:09:36 pm
Some devs take localization very seriously, namely Suda51. He was personally involved in vetting the localizations for Silver Case and FSR.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Real_Character on February 02, 2017, 01:37:04 am
In any case, they kept doing the difficulty changes very consistently, for many years, for games licensed from many different publishers, so I doubt it was just due to their hands being contractually tied.

I doubt it was some kind of contract, but more like implicit nods. You tend to go in the direction that your employer suggests you go. Also, different publishers doesn't necessarily make a difference. I'm sure some didn't care, but the overall business trategy from Japan game companies was to disturb game rentals. It tended to not apply to sprawling RPGs and adventure games that could not be beat in a day, but only to things like Popful Mail. Although I wouldn't say that it was just western publishers being told what to do. They probably also tended to agree with the strategy for the same reasons. Look at the western games on SNES. Just as many were hard as hell to the point of not fun, such as B.O.B. No Japanese company told EA to make it that way. So, I guess another way to look at is that game rentals were seen as a threat as a whole.

As far as returning games to the store, where I was from that wasn't even allowed stating from the late 8-bit era. They gave you store credit up to a couple of days after buying it, at best. After that, the game was yours forever.

Quote
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that translates as:

The "joke" is that Ruby loves fish, see? Not very funny, I'll grant you (though it does help set up a much later scene). Here's what the line becomes in the US version:

Now, I don't know more than the absolute rudiments of Japanese, but I can certainly tell you that there's no secret hidden cultural reference in the original text that the US version is trying to convey the spirit of here. The new joke is just there to "make it funnier". Depending on your sense of humor, maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but that's not the point. Regardless of whether it's "better" or not, it simply doesn't match the original dialogue by any stretch of the imagination, and I can tell you from having looked that the majority of the jokes in the US version are "made up" in this fashion.

Yes, the jokes are made up, but as you said, the original jokes are not funny (unless maybe you know the cultural references, if that applies).

I am bilingual and have had many arguments about this particular topic, about language authenticity in translations. In my view, it's impossible to translate the intent of certain things with precision, and humor is probably the worst offender. So, if it can't be done, might as well "make stuff up". I don't mind if that's done when it doesn't affect the plot and is really only minor details, as in who ate what where. Now, if they had done a total parody in, for example, Popful Mail, where she is a feminist on the hunt for male chauvinists, or something, that would be problematic. But the intent of the story in all these WD games (AFAIK) remained intact.

I would argue that if someone seeks the purest form of a foreign language media, they need to learn the foreign language and the culture for any hope of an authentic experience. Anything else will be sub par, so might as well go for the less worse. I'm not saying it's not possible to balance things out better than what has been made, either. I'm just saying it can be just as bad when going to much in the other extreme, of being "accurate" (emphasis on quotes).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: GHANMI on February 02, 2017, 06:37:51 am
Yet for some reason, Nintendo of Europe, Atlus, P-Cube and Level-5 still manage to have their translations very close to the original meaning without conflicting with it, replacing it with subpar writing, or making stuff up against the intentions of the original writers. And the text still sounds natural, in-universe and fitting the mood of the scenes (considering those cutscenes were written to fit that original meaning after all).

Managing the "impossible" feat of being authentic to the original work while resisting the need to add an ass/tit joke or some contemporary meme must be impressive. The way many people would like us to believe, the translation would collapse to Breath of Fire 2 quality without those cringy memes holding it together. I just wonder how come European translations of Japanese games not using English as proxy, or  even professional English translations of Japanese novels and movies can be done without those oh-so-essential showcases of the English editor's idea of "comedy" whether it fits or not. Maybe the key word here is "professional"?

And for "localisation" being about "tailoring the games for foreign audiences" and "expanding the audience", I fail to see how this "translated" rendition (if it can be called a translation at all, considering the original line is completely different, aside from the word "book") does anything to expand this game's audience. The original game was innocent enough and family friendly, what exactly warrants this change?

Spoiler:
(http://i.imgur.com/9rR0WE9.jpg)

WD editors could have developed their own game and inject it with all their wit and writing and earning the creative position of the "game writer", like Ted Woolsey did, instead of hijacking other more coveted products and even putting their names before those of the actual developers.

@Supper:

Already found some of the Lunar text (ASCII) but having the tools shared with all the pointer work done would be really nice. There's some "fixes" to both SNES and GBA versions of Final Fantasy 4/6, even for stuff that's accurate and not even things that would fit the idea of "fixing a bad translation". But the Lunar games would be far more worthy of one such fix.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Supper on February 02, 2017, 10:12:41 am
^--- What GHANMI said, pretty much. My main point here is that the rewritten script might be subjectively "better" or "worse" than the original, depending on your tastes, but it's just that -- rewritten. It's not presenting the Japanese more effectively, it's making up something new. And do see Vic's insane defense of the changes, as quoted above (from a Gaijinworks thread about these very hacks, I might add).

@Supper:

Already found some of the Lunar text (ASCII) but having the tools shared with all the pointer work done would be really nice. There's some "fixes" to both SNES and GBA versions of Final Fantasy 4/6, even for stuff that's accurate and not even things that would fit the idea of "fixing a bad translation". But the Lunar games would be far more worthy of one such fix.

Sure, here you go: http://www.mediafire.com/file/1r1p63ac5v63sdv/leb_scriptutil.zip (http://www.mediafire.com/file/1r1p63ac5v63sdv/leb_scriptutil.zip) (C++ source only, should build on anything without too much effort)

See the readme for full info and warnings, but these are very simple command-line utilities designed for doing in-place text replacement. They don't parse or recompile the scripts, just heuristically find dialogue and copy it back in. However, the dialogue detection rate is 100% or very close, and there are very few misdetections, so they should be good enough for simple changes.

Incidentally, if anyone's ever interested in doing a full retranslation, I'd be happy to look into making a proper tool for fully de/recompiling the scripts to allow for more effective editing.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Midna on February 02, 2017, 11:14:26 am
Nintendo of Europe

Just dropping in to say that Nintendo of Europe gave us by far the more stilted, less memorable translation of Splatoon while claiming that Panel de Pon was a Yoshi game. Fuck that noise.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: KingMike on February 02, 2017, 12:30:51 pm
As far as returning games to the store, where I was from that wasn't even allowed stating from the late 8-bit era. They gave you store credit up to a couple of days after buying it, at best. After that, the game was yours forever.
I'd imagine that was abusable. From what I had read of stores' return policies on receipts as a kid (yes, I was a bored kid) certain items such as games were only returnable if defective, and then only for replacement.
Return a used game as "defective" to get a new copy and then return the new copy.
Although I'm sure stores have gotten wise to that, such as I think Target does track returns.

B.O.B. was a western game, but maybe that was implied by "No Japanese company".
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: noneother on February 02, 2017, 03:34:37 pm
About Alundra. I read that one of the miners was named Jaylen supposedly in reference to Jay Leno (the char's portrait somewhat looks like him), which falls in line with what WD is known for.

That hardly counts as "butchering", though. You might not even notice if you weren't paying attention, and it can still make sense within the game world, so I'm fine with that. What really bothers are jokes that depend on naming thing and places that don't exist within the game world; from memory, the first two Lunar games refer to Bill Clinton and Rush Limbaugh by name (within a comment about listening to him on the radio, when there's clearly no radio in Lunar), which, seriously... fuck that dumb shit.

Dynamic Designs, the fan translation group, takes it much further than WD ever did, stuffing tons of references to and outright rants about American politics in Shell Monsters Story, for example, in the most jarring way.
Or there was Nightwolve & Deuce's infamous line in the Xak 3 translation, where a NPC asks you if you're a republican (and tells you to stop playing the game if you're a "libtard" or however they put it). Real classy, guys.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Midna on February 02, 2017, 04:10:50 pm
Well, the founder(s?) of Dynamic Designs do list WD as being one of their favorite localization groups (it's where half of their name comes from), so it wouldn't surprise me.

(The WD take on Lunar name-drops Bob Vila too.)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: travel27 on February 02, 2017, 07:06:26 pm


Dynamic Designs, the fan translation group, takes it much further than WD ever did, stuffing tons of references to and outright rants about American politics in Shell Monsters Story, for example, in the most jarring way.
Or there was Nightwolve & Deuce's infamous line in the Xak 3 translation, where a NPC asks you if you're a republican (and tells you to stop playing the game if you're a "libtard" or however they put it). Real classy, guys.

Is it too much to ask to just be thankful for their efforts?  Lame jokes or not, you would not be playing AND understanding without them...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: noneother on February 02, 2017, 08:05:20 pm
Is it too much to ask to just be thankful for their efforts?  Lame jokes or not, you would not be playing AND understanding without them...
I've pretty much decided not to play their translations anymore if WildBill was involved with it in any way, so no, not thankful. I genuinely feel that he ruined Shell Monsters Story, and hurt FEDA as well, which is unfortunate as it's actually a good game. And we're not talking about "lame jokes", though he likes those (and awful speech patterns), but angry, incredibly out-of-place rants about Obamacare, the ACLU, Muslims or whatever nonsense he's riled up about at that point in time.
Dynamic Designs releasing a patch for a game also means another group is far less likely to do so, so in the end theirs will be the only one out there, and they have so much disdain for anyone who isn't on board with their politics that they feel everyone should love to read about their opinion in a 90s Japanese RPG.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Midna on February 02, 2017, 08:52:00 pm
Out of curiosity, what are some examples of the rants you're upset about?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: noneother on February 02, 2017, 10:06:24 pm
Out of curiosity, what are some examples of the rants you're upset about?

I didn't write them down, but off the top of my head I remember one in FEDA early on where you get into a village and a NPC says it is neutral in the ongoing war. One of your character goes into this long, grandiloquent rant about how "neutrality is cowardice" and bla bla bla which is out of character and, of course, wasn't in the original game or earlier versions of the patch, and makes no sense at all considering at this point you're on the run from your own army after getting framed, so you're not exactly taking sides any more. This was WildBill, still mad at France for not joining up the Iraq War (remember Freedom Fries, etc.)

I only briefly played the Snes Record of Lodoss War because I hated the gameplay but the treasure hunters you encounter early on are framed as "looters" and your character scolds a child for living in that immoral way, etc. etc. Didn't care too much about that one because the game wasn't much good.

In Shell Monsters Story... man, too many to narrow it down. There's stuff about Obamacare, about "useful idiots" at the ACLU, a weird tangent about primitive alien civilizations that can only destroy that sounds as if it's alluding to Islam in general (I don't recall the wording but it's very, very similar to the language used in anti-Muslim rants and doesn't really fit in the game at that point since you know very little about the enemy), and random stuff about liberals. I'm pretty sure there's at least 7-8 outright speeches or allusions in that game alone, which is beating a dead horse if I've ever seen it.

And that's just stuff I've seen or remember years later. There's plenty releases of theirs I didn't play, and I chose AGTP's Mystic Ark for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Spinner 8 on February 02, 2017, 10:39:27 pm
I didn't write them down, but off the top of my head I remember one in FEDA early on where you get into a village and a NPC says it is neutral in the ongoing war. One of your character goes into this long, grandiloquent rant about how "neutrality is cowardice" and bla bla bla which is out of character and, of course, wasn't in the original game or earlier versions of the patch, and makes no sense at all considering at this point you're on the run from your own army after getting framed, so you're not exactly taking sides any more. This was WildBill, still mad at France for not joining up the Iraq War (remember Freedom Fries, etc.)

I only briefly played the Snes Record of Lodoss War because I hated the gameplay but the treasure hunters you encounter early on are framed as "looters" and your character scolds a child for living in that immoral way, etc. etc. Didn't care too much about that one because the game wasn't much good.

In Shell Monsters Story... man, too many to narrow it down. There's stuff about Obamacare, about "useful idiots" at the ACLU, a weird tangent about primitive alien civilizations that can only destroy that sounds as if it's alluding to Islam in general (I don't recall the wording but it's very, very similar to the language used in anti-Muslim rants and doesn't really fit in the game at that point since you know very little about the enemy), and random stuff about liberals. I'm pretty sure there's at least 7-8 outright speeches or allusions in that game alone, which is beating a dead horse if I've ever seen it.

And that's just stuff I've seen or remember years later. There's plenty releases of theirs I didn't play, and I chose AGTP's Mystic Ark for obvious reasons.

Ohhhhhh my god I had no idea about any of this! I knew about the plot change to Phantasy Star Gaiden of course, but... Obamacare?!

Is it bad that this just makes me want to play them more? (And maybe rehack them?) :)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: vivify93 on February 02, 2017, 11:01:10 pm
Now I'm very concerned about the quality of the Sailor Moon translation that Dynamic-Designs released this year, Floating Panic. Maybe I should get back to playing it to see if there are any off-kilter jokes in it.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Midna on February 03, 2017, 12:06:34 am
In a way, I'm reminded of the former head admin on the Silent Hill Wiki and a few others who went completely batshit (https://storify.com/jasperrolls/the-silent-hill-wiki-circumcision-meltdown-of-2015), came to the conclusion that everything in every game with the least amount of symbolism was veiled criticism of circumcision (or as he constantly put it, "genital mutilation"), and went about inserting this into nearly every article on every site he adminned for in some lunatic attempt to make us clueless sheep wake up. It got to the point where he was posting pages-long rants about the supposed negative side effects of circumcision on tangentially related articles. (He was also a 9/11 truther, because why not?) That was a ride.

Now I'm very concerned about the quality of the Sailor Moon translation that Dynamic-Designs released this year, Floating Panic. Maybe I should get back to playing it to see if there are any off-kilter jokes in it.

He wasn't involved with that one, so I'd assume not. All of those fan translations with unneeded lunatic far-right rants have him in common.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: mz on February 03, 2017, 12:26:49 am
If anyone else got interested in his work as much as I am now, here's the link to his profile: http://www.romhacking.net/community/1641/

He usually seems to be credited as "English Story Writer"... What exactly is that?

In those Dynamic-Designs translations there usually are a few translators and then an "English Story Writer". It almost sounds like they just have someone in charge of adding crap after the translations are finished...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Midna on February 03, 2017, 12:38:11 am
Presumably they mean someone who's in charge of rewriting the directly translated script to sound more natural in English. As in, to make it flow better, not to add unrelated political rants the writers never intended.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Piotyr on February 03, 2017, 05:16:50 am
In my opinion a localization should take the spirit of a joke and find the English equivalent, not rewrite their own joke in its place. I find it very hard to believe they had a hard time translating a joke about liking fish so they just said "screw it, fart jokes!".
I am very vocal about disliking loose translations, I know straight uber faithful translations are usually dry and stilted but I would rather have that than a working designs translation now a days. Not every translation needs to be "Jazzed up", sometimes I want a vanilla fantasy rpg rather than something akin to Deathspank (Note Deathspank is a terrible "Comedy" diablo clone for various consoles if you didn't know).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: GHANMI on February 03, 2017, 07:20:48 am
And do see Vic's insane defense of the changes, as quoted above (from a Gaijinworks thread about these very hacks, I might add).

Have you been already noticed by senpai...?

It's funny how much hate torrent is coming your way from there about being a purist weaboo not understanding the unreachable secrets of the localisation craft, despite the patches still not including translation changes, or Vic Ireland himself admitting that Exile 2 and Lunar 2's balance changes were indeed a mistake, among other similar less direct comments explaining why they had to do these changes, not that they were good or improvements in any way (about Silhouette Mirage, Popful Mail, and other games).

It's really weird how some people feel it's acceptable to tell someone his romhacking work isn't needed, that s/he's and idiot and he should better stop that and work on something else instead, but only when it comes to restorations of missing/mangled content in regional conversions (horse rectum texture mods have more respect by comparison). As if the mere existence of the choice or the option for a bullshit-free translation (bullshit definition being subjective) is a problem.

Just dropping in to say that Nintendo of Europe gave us by far the more stilted, less memorable translation of Splatoon while claiming that Panel de Pon was a Yoshi game. Fuck that noise.

While having the superior English versions of Xenoblade (compared to the sequel done by NoA/8-4) and 3DS Zelda games. In their version of Tomodachi Collection, they didn't cut the too-Japanese minigames the NoA version did, but had both the original and the American replacement. And Rhythm Heaven Wii even had dual audio (and from data-mining, NoE apparently even started their own translation for the Manzai game).

And that's just for the English translations. When it comes to the French / Spanish translations, it's not even a contest - their NoA French versions for Phantom Hourglass and Super Mario Galaxy (2007) were so bad and meme infested that there was a big popular uproar (and even comments by politicians) about it in the Quebec about bastardizing and degrading the French language. The offending parts were comparable in quality to how the "rednecks" spoke in Lunar.
The NoE translations are done directly from Japanese (until recently, like with FE:Fates sadly enough where NoA tried to have more control of the release's content in both regions so most languages were done from English instead), and it helps preserving puns and stuff often omitted from the US versions (like for example Paper Mario 2, which is uncensored in Spanish).

Ohhhhhh my god I had no idea about any of this! I knew about the plot change to Phantasy Star Gaiden of course, but... Obamacare?!

Is it bad that this just makes me want to play them more? (And maybe rehack them?) :)

FEDA really could use another hacking job. Even from a technical standpoint, it's buggy, unfinished and horrendous with text obviously shortened to compromise. But I fear the "localization additions" had more priority than the jist of the message when it came to which parts of the text got to stay.
Injecting pushy personal political opinions on the public seems like the icing on the top. It's sad that striving for imitating "professional" translations comes with injecting soap-boxing as subtle as the likes of Bill Clinton references in Lunar and a lecture about the ills of fat shaming in Fire Emblem Fates, instead of the best available stuff when it comes to localisations.

The ways of J2ME and DeJap should be something to get over, not perpetrate as some ideal of how localisations should be like. I feel a better compromise is to have a new category of game romhacks replacing scripts with abridged dubs - if you want to do it so badly, might as well go all the way instead of ending with a hybrid reject representing neither the original work nor how a Samurai Pizza Cats dub of it would sound like (I think there's an actual SPC game here with two translations, the accurate one and the heavily rewritten one).

I think the German translator for Nintendo in the nineties (famous for his WD-like antics, except it cost him public outcry and eventually his job) mentioned he thought of tons of sexual jokes while translating Secret of Evermore, but had some spare time after finishing the project, so he made a completely separate prototype cartridge with the alternate profane script and kept it in his home. And some japanese game even had an alternate "omake" voiceover and script with the team and actors going batshit insane with the jokes (apparently that game got an US release and got that repurposed as a dual audio JP/EN feature). Why not that?

In a way, I'm reminded of the former head admin on the Silent Hill Wiki and a few others who went completely batshit (https://storify.com/jasperrolls/the-silent-hill-wiki-circumcision-meltdown-of-2015),

That made my day  :laugh:
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Midna on February 03, 2017, 08:07:46 am
You can feel how you want about NoE, but I will never forgive them for basically erasing the existence of a series that is already nearly dead and needs a hell of a lot more love than it's getting (from any party). I guess you could say Nintendo only pays it Lip service these days... no? Ehh, never mind.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Lentfilms on February 03, 2017, 08:16:13 am
In more recent memory in terms of official releases, I know there were people upset about Gaijinworks' rewritten dialogue in Summon Night 5. There was that screen cap floating around the internet where a character just saying "Whoa!" in Japanese was changed to a small sentence, "They're loud Buggers, whatever they are.", or how other lines were spiced up to be goofier than they were originally. None of the changes in SM5 took me out of the experience while I was playing it and even the changes that were pointed out online didn't seem that game-changing to me personally but I completely understand the opinion that dialogue shouldn't be rewritten as a general rule. As an example of rewrites that did ruin a game for me: 8-4 also made a lot of infamous changes to Tales of Heart R where a lot of characters' personalities were sometimes totally different and the dialogue often bared no resemblance to the original writing.

Back to being positive, I would like to thank you Supper for specifically making the Popful Mail re-balance patch. I had tried several times to play that game but always got frustrated with the unfair difficulty but now I may finally be able to finish it.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: mz on February 03, 2017, 09:26:10 am
I think the German translator for Nintendo in the nineties mentioned he thought of tons of sexual jokes while translating Secret of Evermore
Eh, I think that's really common... I think of sexual jokes and pop-culture references 90% of the time I'm translating a game, but in the end you have to think in the majority of the users. Do you want to ruin their experience with some shitty joke that probably won't even be funny to most of them?

In Star Ocean: Blue Sphere there's an untranslatable pun/riddle about beetles and, of course, I first inserted a reference to The Beatles there while translating it... It wasn't until I tested that part that I realized how it took me out of the game completely. (In fact, planet Earth exists in this game, but the planet where this scene happens in could have never heard of The Beatles before...)

So, in my experience, inserting this kind of crap is really alluring when you're the translator, but holy shit it sucks when you're the player...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Reiska on February 03, 2017, 01:49:00 pm
Ohhhhhh my god I had no idea about any of this! I knew about the plot change to Phantasy Star Gaiden of course, but... Obamacare?!

Is it bad that this just makes me want to play them more? (And maybe rehack them?) :)

No, not really.  I mean, I appreciate lively-but-unfaithful localization more than most people around this thread, I suspect, but I tend not to like it when a localizer inserts their politics into a script where they don't belong (regardless of which way they lean politically - conservative or liberal).  It's one thing if the game itself is going there (e.g. Shin Megami Tensei has a less-than-flattering portrayal of the US which is central to its plot), but the majority of JRPGs aren't set in anything remotely resembling modern real-world Earth where people would even have a concept of liberal or conservative politics. :P  Even then, some bits of subtle political humor can work (e.g. Disgaea's reference to George W. Bush choking on a pretzel, which references only the event and does not namedrop, works well).

When it comes to strict translation vs. localization, I like to bring up FF4: The After Years as an example.  The majority of the game is largely translated in the very terse, literal style typical of most of S-E's low budget titles; see also Final Fantasy Dimensions for another example, which was done by the same team I'm pretty sure.  However, there are a few scenes which are explicitly flashbacks to events in the original FF4, and these scenes quote the DS script.  The difference in writing quality sticks out like a sore thumb.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: GHANMI on February 03, 2017, 03:00:20 pm
When it comes to strict translation vs. localization, I like to bring up FF4: The After Years as an example.  The majority of the game is largely translated in the very terse, literal style typical of most of S-E's low budget titles; see also Final Fantasy Dimensions for another example, which was done by the same team I'm pretty sure.  However, there are a few scenes which are explicitly flashbacks to events in the original FF4, and these scenes quote the DS script.  The difference in writing quality sticks out like a sore thumb.

Thing is, the DS version of Final Fantasy IV was faithful. It's a really good example of how a localisation should be like, because the editing passes to make it more "natural sounding" actually compliment the original script and go with harmony with it, rather than clashing with it and attempting to replace it. Having an enjoyable nicely written English script that sounds like the game was designed around it, is not mutually exclusive with keeping as much as possible of the text intact within what grammar and regulations allow for.

Nothing made up, no characterization changed for no reason, little to no real life references or anything being the translator going "I'm here, notice me", and most importantly no disdain to the original work and attempts to "fix its horrible writing" with "MY writing that's probably better than this bland shit (my scriptwriter qualifications? those moving pixels following the bad writing? unimportant details!)".

It's funny you're praising Slattery's translations (in fact, it's refreshing, considering I really enjoyed them) considering how they were called "bland" and "overly literal" compared to their Woolsey's rushed counterparts. Yes, that elaborate prose was a "literal", word-by-word translation of a Japanese Super Famicom game's script, if some are to be believed. It almost feels like "blandness" isn't the concern, but staying close to the original is a net negative that warrants offense.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Real_Character on February 03, 2017, 03:44:34 pm
Yet for some reason, Nintendo of Europe, Atlus, P-Cube and Level-5 still manage to have their translations very close to the original meaning without conflicting with it, replacing it with subpar writing, or making stuff up against the intentions of the original writers.

This seems like a mix of speculation, subjective opinion and some truth. But the point is that the difficulty of making something good out of a localization, while still staying "accurate", is going to vary greatly depending on the content.

People make a big deal out of Breath of Fire 2 as an example of fixing a localization, but I've heard of plenty of people that don't like the re-working. You can't please everyone. On top of that Bof2 is not even an example of "changing stuff around", just poor writing.

I don't know much about everything WD localized, so I won't comment on that, but I've yet to see something they did which I hated. Even Parasol Stars on TG16 was great. But the example I would go back to is Popful Mail on Sega CD, since it was in the OP. It's a goofy game no matter how you sllice it. Just look at it. Never mind any of the dialogue. I try to imagine a more "accurate" localization and it seems worse than what was done. I imagine the "accurate" version as literally a story for small children, but too corny for anyone else, except characters are wearing typical anime fantasy battle lingerie, for some reason. And if you'd argue you know better, that's an impossible claim to prove.

The bigger point is that you can't please everyone, and you will usually fail when you try.

February 03, 2017, 04:02:54 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I'd imagine that was abusable. From what I had read of stores' return policies on receipts as a kid (yes, I was a bored kid) certain items such as games were only returnable if defective, and then only for replacement.
Return a used game as "defective" to get a new copy and then return the new copy.
Although I'm sure stores have gotten wise to that, such as I think Target does track returns.

From what I can tell, it varied a lot from store to store. I remember some place called Kay-B Toys around here, which is the first store I remember selling games like hot cakes. They took returns of opened games only for a few days. That name is relevant because that's how vgames were sold in those days. They were toys for kids, as far as commerce was concerned. Kids are not savvy by default, and the amount of adults trying to scam stores was not bad enough to affect them, I guess.

Later, I also heard stories from friends of games being returned to Toys-R-Us. But, yes, abuse of returns is probably what transitioned store policies to be more strict with game sales, to the point where they only took back unopened games, or opened games only on the day of purchase after some haggling by an adult with the clerk.

I never returned a game to a store as a kid. I would have been too embarrassed. And neither of my parents would have humored a request that they return a game for me that I didn't like. I think I only ever returned one game rental, because it was the wrong game. So, speaking of game rentals, that was the real threat, since stores nipped the return gimmick in the bud pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Recapnation on February 03, 2017, 04:31:57 pm

The bigger point is that you can't please everyone, and you will usually fail when you try.

Then, stay faithful? You don't need to justify that. Do Americans localize [cult] movies and novels too? (Honest question!)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Supper on February 04, 2017, 11:46:06 am
Things have gotten a bit livelier in here than I expected. I'm not complaining, since what constitutes "appropriate localization" is still a major issue with video games and I think it's well worth discussing. Especially when some fan translators (or rather, fan editors) are still taking "inspiration" from the Working Designs "style". Before I started on this little project, I honestly thought these kinds of practices would be universally condemned, but I suppose that was naive.

Anyway, I've started working on Alundra. In fact, I may be finished with Alundra, because it seems like all the difficulty changes are contained in a single file that I can simply copy over from the Japanese version to restore everything. Even if that's the case, it'll be at least a few days before I can release it since I need to complete runs through both the JP and fixed US versions to make sure I didn't miss or break anything.

I haven't forgotten about Silver Star, so for anyone waiting on that, please be patient.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Reiska on February 04, 2017, 11:20:49 pm
Thing is, the DS version of Final Fantasy IV was faithful. It's a really good example of how a localisation should be like, because the editing passes to make it more "natural sounding" actually compliment the original script and go with harmony with it, rather than clashing with it and attempting to replace it. Having an enjoyable nicely written English script that sounds like the game was designed around it, is not mutually exclusive with keeping as much as possible of the text intact within what grammar and regulations allow for.

Nothing made up, no characterization changed for no reason, little to no real life references or anything being the translator going "I'm here, notice me", and most importantly no disdain to the original work and attempts to "fix its horrible writing" with "MY writing that's probably better than this bland shit (my scriptwriter qualifications? those moving pixels following the bad writing? unimportant details!)".

It's funny you're praising Slattery's translations (in fact, it's refreshing, considering I really enjoyed them) considering how they were called "bland" and "overly literal" compared to their Woolsey's rushed counterparts. Yes, that elaborate prose was a "literal", word-by-word translation of a Japanese Super Famicom game's script, if some are to be believed. It almost feels like "blandness" isn't the concern, but staying close to the original is a net negative that warrants offense.

I'm a big fan of Slattery's translations in general, yeah, though they vary somewhat in faithfulness (FF4 and FF6 were both very faithful from what I can tell; FF5 took more liberties, probably because the base material is somewhat bland itself).  Woolsey, for his part, did a very good job considering how little he had to work with and the poor conditions he worked under.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: tc on February 04, 2017, 11:58:06 pm
Overall I'm not so convinced translators are in the wrong AS much as the internet makes them out to be. Not knowing Japanese, who am I to say a line wasn't already bland, poorly characterized, or otherwise in the original work?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Midna on February 05, 2017, 12:23:33 am
Final Fantasy V is also a more lighthearted game than IV or VI, so it makes sense it'd have a slightly looser translation. I'm not a huge fan of the DS script for IV because it's got this sort of "archaic fantasy" tone that permeates everything and gets to be kind of distracting (though it was like that in Japanese too), but it's probably the most faithful translation of the game out there at the moment.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Spooniest on February 05, 2017, 01:36:44 am
Some of my favorite non-jokes I did in my first romhack (one of FF6, you'll find it on here if you look).

- Gau's return speech is shortened to a single line, which he says and then rejoins you. Enough is enough, Gau is time consuming as it is.

- Cyan's line about Leo being the Empire's "finest soldier" and that it was "a waste" for Kefka to kill him is somewhat devoid of...er...passion, for a warrior. I just whipped out "He was one of the few honorable men left in the Empire" because I thought it was more what a Samurai would say. ... o_o Idk

- A Soldier from Maranda quotes a poem I read once. It's called "Dulce Et Decorum Est," and I suggest you read it. It's by some medical trooper who passed away in WWI, and left it behind in his belongings.

- The name of the song "Johnny C. Bad" is used to describe the record Lola wishes her lover to send her. The name of the book "Final Fantasy" is used to describe the book Lola wishes her lover to send her. I thought these were appropriate and cute. "Johnny C. Bad," for reference, plays in the pub in Albrook and Dragon's Neck Coliseum's lobby.

- Not only are all the character intros 5-7-5 haikus (and yes just so you can call me a weaboo and laugh at me, be my guest), but Cyan's reintroduction text before you get him back on Mount Zozo is as well. Thank you I'm here all week. Try the veal.

Mostly I avoided making up jokes that were not already being told by the game. The best one is where Cyan is afraid that the switch on the caboose of the Phantom Train is going to do something terrible.

Spoiler:

<EOP> = End of page
<D> = Delay of about a second and a half.
Underlines produce monospace ellipses.
The names are usually just a two-character alphanumeric value that represents the name that is given to the character. I've replaced them with the most well-known ones.

[caption #666]
<Sabin>
 What's this?
 Let me just give it a_

[caption #667]
<Cyan>
 Sir <Sabin>! Perhaps we shouldn't
 fumble with that!

[caption #668]
<Sabin>
 <Cyan>_are you scared of
 machines?

[caption #669]
<Sabin>
 & I hit it, just like that-! & (music notes - ed.)

[caption #670]
<Cyan>
 How could you_

[caption #671]
<Cyan>
 How can you_?!

[caption #672]
<Cyan>
 How_dare you?!<EOP>
<Cyan>
 Listen, we can't just go hitting
 switches and activating machines,
 who knows what'll happen, and_ <EOP>
<Cyan>
 Anyway, it's not_ <D>polite__

[caption #673]
<Sabin>
 <Cyan>_you are terrified of
 machines.

[caption #674]
<Cyan>
 SILENCE_! I am not!

Working Designs' humor, then is really kind of flat and sort of mildly irritating because it chooses to favor what is popular at the time in its target market (an easy way to get a temporary laugh that will not last into the future, and become an eyesore), instead of just highlighting what is funny about the situation being presented itself (which takes brain power but can be done).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: ricardioheartguy on February 05, 2017, 02:00:24 am
I signed up for these forums just to thank you, Supper.  It's great that we can experience these classics closer to their original vision while still experiencing what it was like when released. I play retro games to experience the past, and I understand Japanese enough to play the originals if I wanted the unadulterated vision, but the thing keeping me from enjoying these games was always the punishing difficulty that studios like Konami added to their games to combat the rental market. I'll finally get to beat that wood golem in Popful Mail  :thumbsup:

I'm not going to defend WD's work because standards change with time, but probably like many gamers in the early 90s they were my first experience with anime style. Millions played Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest but WD didn't rebrand the art or soften the image for a Western audience. I look a them like Turner Entertainment in the 80s when they were recolorizing old movies. It's not the ideal way to watch those classics, but for millions it was their first experience. We've moved on and do better but I like revisiting the past to see the foundation everything was built on.

Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Recapnation on February 06, 2017, 07:54:13 pm
Really cool, that Alundra may be coming next. Are you taking suggestions for non-WD stuff too? Monster World III got similar changes regarding difficulty when it was ported as Wonder Boy in Monster World:

https://tcrf.net/Wonder_Boy_in_Monster_World#Japan_to_US.2FPAL

It's one of MD/GEN best pieces yet not many people complain, but the changes, even if more reasonable, were not really for the best, as usual.

(Forgive me for taking the liberty!)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: GHANMI on February 07, 2017, 05:15:02 am
Really cool, that Alundra may be coming next. Are you taking suggestions for non-WD stuff too? Monster World III got similar changes regarding difficulty when it was ported as Wonder Boy in Monster World:

https://tcrf.net/Wonder_Boy_in_Monster_World#Japan_to_US.2FPAL

It's one of MD/GEN best pieces yet not many people complain, but the changes, even if more reasonable, were not really for the best, as usual.

(Forgive me for taking the liberty!)

Having tried both the JP and English Mega Drive versions, the difficulty increase is definitely an improvement in MW3's case. Otherwise, death is trivial, and the final boss is basically the easiest boss in the game despite all the dramatic sacrifices before it. And I think no boss became a damage sponge or weapons got nerfed / more expensive.

But if you really want a version with the English script AND none of the difficulty changes, try the English TurboGrafx-16 (PCE) version, called Dynastic Hero (but with redrawn sprites).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Recapnation on February 07, 2017, 07:35:02 am
Yeah, I tried both too. Found WB in MW's final boss more than annoying. It was easy, now it's a tedium thanks to the system changes. I think everybody should experience the games as they were conceived by their authors as much as possible no matter how "flawed" they may be and that that's this thread's author ultimate point, hence my suggestion about MW3 -- it's a very special game and the changes were quite drastic. Dynastic Hero's sprites are too ugly compared to the original art to be a proper substitute, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: GHANMI on February 07, 2017, 10:34:17 am
I'm of the opinion they were the developers applying a last-minute layer of polish to unfinished parts of the game, rather than arbitrary decisions by publishers and translation censors editors more divorced from the development process.

Think changes from the same type as Savage Labyrinth in Twilight Princess having a Heart Piece (US/PAL) rather than a measly 10 rupees (JP) rather than ones like NoE changing Red Armor's price in Terranigma from 6666 (JP) to 6800 (EU), or worse, WD ones.

Anyways, about undoing Monster World 3's changes:

For the Game Over screen instead of teleporting you back to an inn keeping your progress and newly unlocked events, it undoes much of the game's challenge but also has the potential to bug the event flags. Restoring it with assembly could be possible, but a more sane alternative would be keeping the overseas change but adding more Return spells.

As for the final boss, changing room layout data to use the regular floor instead of the conveyor belt could be the solution, so if anyone publishes data for restoring the off-screen doors you could make use of it for that room. The chainsaws could have their programming modified to no longer call the damage routine, and they could be made invisible with graphical editing with the graphical decompressor already available for those games (but it might prove they were actually intended from the start for the JP game)

I'd love some more Working Designs to be restored before that though (despite that I have my own wishlist of games mangled in their balancing by their localizations I'd love to see fixed, like Thousand Arms, Brain Lord, Spike McFang, even the first Monster Land game...)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Recapnation on February 07, 2017, 11:52:38 am
I'm of the opinion they were the developers applying a last-minute layer of polish to unfinished parts of the game, rather than arbitrary decisions by publishers and translation censors editors more divorced from the development process.

Thanks for the suggestions. To be honest, I also believe the changes for WB in MW were made by the game developers themselves, though I'm more of the opinion they're mostly asked by Sega for the foreign versions. Though the final boss felt kind of unfinished; I agree.



Quote
NoE changing Red Armor's price in Terranigma from 6666 (JP) to 6800 (EU)

Didn't know about that one. Did someone try to restore that?



Quote
I'd love some more Working Designs to be restored before that though (despite that I have my own wishlist of games mangled in their balancing by their localizations I'd love to see fixed, like Thousand Arms, Brain Lord, Spike McFang

Sure, why not. Which are the changes on Chou Makai Taisen! Dora-botchan/Spike Mc Fang, exactly? They're apparently not present here: https://tcrf.net/Category:Games_with_regional_differences



Quote
even the first Monster Land game...)

Do you mean the Mark III port? The arcade game was not officially released outside Japan back in the day, and up until the X360/PS3 emulations by M-2, the English adaptation was pretty much lost (the ones you could find out there were bootlegs, and therefore, very bad versions). A really nice project indeed would be to get the official English version from X360/PS3's Sega Ages Online (http://ages.sega.jp/online/title/monsterland/index.html) working as regular MAME ROMs. I guess if we don't have it yet it's because most think it's already in MAME or it's just a not-popular-enough fact -- the games use ROM and emulation much like the latter.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Supper on February 07, 2017, 02:56:19 pm
Still working on Alundra. I didn't realize this game was so long, but I've managed to blast through the Japanese version and, after picking through the main data file a bit, turned up a handful of additional changes. One of these is actually mentioned in the manual (the timing for a switch puzzle was made more forgiving -- not sure why, because it wasn't that hard to begin with), but two other scripts were also slightly modified and I haven't yet figured out what those alterations affect. One is something to do with the "overworld" area of Meia's dream, the other I'm not even sure what map it's on -- all I can tell you is that something changed from 160 to 64 (EDIT: figured this out, it's just changing which buttons confirm your choice on the Game Over screen). Changing these back isn't difficult, but verifying that that won't break the game is trickier.

I signed up for these forums just to thank you, Supper.  It's great that we can experience these classics closer to their original vision while still experiencing what it was like when released. I play retro games to experience the past, and I understand Japanese enough to play the originals if I wanted the unadulterated vision, but the thing keeping me from enjoying these games was always the punishing difficulty that studios like Konami added to their games to combat the rental market. I'll finally get to beat that wood golem in Popful Mail  :thumbsup:

I'm not going to defend WD's work because standards change with time, but probably like many gamers in the early 90s they were my first experience with anime style. Millions played Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest but WD didn't rebrand the art or soften the image for a Western audience. I look a them like Turner Entertainment in the 80s when they were recolorizing old movies. It's not the ideal way to watch those classics, but for millions it was their first experience. We've moved on and do better but I like revisiting the past to see the foundation everything was built on.

Thank you. I tend to approach old games as "history" in a similar way, which is one of the reasons it's frustrating to me when the only version of the game I can readily understand has been heavily tampered with. I'd be pretty upset if I bought a translation of some Greek play and discovered the translator had filled it with made-up jokes, and I see no reason to treat video games differently.

That said, I'm aware Working Designs was breaking new ground and that their releases are products of their time, to an extent. I really do respect everyone involved for the massive effort it took to license these games and bring them to the West, year after year. I just wish they'd shown some respect of their own for the effort that went into the original material.

Really cool, that Alundra may be coming next. Are you taking suggestions for non-WD stuff too? Monster World III got similar changes regarding difficulty when it was ported as Wonder Boy in Monster World:

https://tcrf.net/Wonder_Boy_in_Monster_World#Japan_to_US.2FPAL

It's one of MD/GEN best pieces yet not many people complain, but the changes, even if more reasonable, were not really for the best, as usual.

(Forgive me for taking the liberty!)

Well, I'll be sticking to WD's product line for now, but I might branch out if I get tired of that or if something catches my eye. These kinds of hacks are usually pretty interesting to work on.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: thainferno305 on February 07, 2017, 03:47:41 pm
I'm at the bar and the game froze when Ronfar is trying to bet me at a game of dice in ur lunar eternal blue patch
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Supper on February 07, 2017, 04:17:37 pm
I'm at the bar and the game froze when Ronfar is trying to bet me at a game of dice in ur lunar eternal blue patch

You're using an old version of the patch -- that problem's been fixed. Download the latest version here: http://www.mediafire.com/file/608j7yj80950ly5/Lunar+Eternal+Blue+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v2.zip (http://www.mediafire.com/file/608j7yj80950ly5/Lunar+Eternal+Blue+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v2.zip)

Sorry for the trouble. You'll also notice there are some blank dialogue options that pop up in that same conversation with Ronfar; I've fixed those, but haven't released a new version of the patch yet. Just ignore them for now.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Reiska on February 08, 2017, 04:29:26 am
I'd love some more Working Designs to be restored before that though (despite that I have my own wishlist of games mangled in their balancing by their localizations I'd love to see fixed, like Thousand Arms, Brain Lord, Spike McFang, even the first Monster Land game...)

I had no idea Thousand Arms was fucked with, is it documented anywhere?

I do know Legend of Legaia's US release was made substantially harder, and would love a patch to revert that one.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty
Post by: Tiny on February 08, 2017, 07:02:41 am
Voice redubs are doable considering this was amateur level voice acting back in the day, so I think anyone can pull that off if needed.

If the author is open to it, I'll be happy to contribute VA work - have done so before at a very private level and for work (training videos).

@Piotyr - It's me, Tiny! I heard you were messaging me on my old skype, I no longer use that since I'm in another company! Hope you see this since it was your post that spurred me to finally stop lurking and sign up (also because VA work :P)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Supper on February 09, 2017, 01:59:15 am
Well, here's Alundra.

Alundra (PlayStation) -- patch v0 (2/9/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/98zMbO7.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/3s2z5cw4afjs29e/Alundra+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Should work, but hasn't been tested all the way through. Let me know if anything goes wrong, or if you can verify that the game is completable without issue.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All enemies have their stats restored to what they were in the Japanese version.
* The timing of the disappearing switch puzzle in Elene's dream has been reverted to its original, harder difficulty from the Japanese version.

Doing back-to-back runs of a game that takes me 30+ hours even with a walkthrough handy is more than I feel up to right now, so I haven't tested this all the way through. The changes here aren't very drastic, though, so I'm fairly confident (let's say Han Solo confident) it'll work. Report any issues and I'll fix them, etc. Also note that unlike previous patches, this one targets the BIN directly instead of requiring it to be split to ISO/WAV -- the patching procedure is basically the same, but check the readme for the updated instructions. All three English-language versions (USA 1.0, USA 1.1, and European) are supported.

About 95% of the time it took to do this hack was spent clearing the Japanese version and checking against a walkthrough to make sure I didn't miss any changes. Ultimately, the only alterations I had to make were a single fileswap and one (1) changed byte in another file, though there are a couple of things that I left as they were. Specifically, the default option on the title screen was changed from "Continue" to "New Game," and the text in the load menu was flagged as non-fast-forwardable. I have no idea why they did this, and I may fix it when I'm feeling more like digging through the game code, but since this doesn't directly impact the gameplay I'm not sweating it for now.

Thanks to Cebix for making the excellent psximager utilities, which made putting together this hack a lot easier.

Right now, I'm feeling strangely inclined to look at Cosmic Fantasy 2, but I do still need to tie up loose ends with Eternal Blue and get moving on Silver Star. We'll see what happens, I guess.

If the author is open to it, I'll be happy to contribute VA work - have done so before at a very private level and for work (training videos).

@Piotyr - It's me, Tiny! I heard you were messaging me on my old skype, I no longer use that since I'm in another company! Hope you see this since it was your post that spurred me to finally stop lurking and sign up (also because VA work :P)

Thanks, but I'm probably not going to go that road. The PCM files aren't compressed or anything, though, so it wouldn't be very difficult for anyone so inclined to replace the voice acting. (Speaking of which, I only recently found out about the new music WD inserted in the last dungeon of Eternal Blue. Probably not going to bother changing it back, since I've retained other music they added, and because I'm personally a big fan of Bill King's music. Even if the Alundra intro theme he did is supremely unfitting for the soundtrack.)

EDIT: I discovered that most bosses in Exile II were still giving out the EXP and Gold amounts from the US version, so I've made a new version of the patch that fixes the problem. Get it here: http://www.mediafire.com/file/bbn6q2hvydwqdbu/Exile+II+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip (http://www.mediafire.com/file/bbn6q2hvydwqdbu/Exile+II+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: KingMike on February 10, 2017, 10:29:33 pm
I've pretty much decided not to play their translations anymore if WildBill was involved with it in any way, so no, not thankful.

Remembering they did Burning Heroes...
did they at least add a SNICKERS AURA item anywhere?  ;D
(you'd have to be a pretty old and hardcore member to get that, I suppose)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: Midna on February 10, 2017, 11:05:20 pm
Remembering they did Burning Heroes...
did they at least add a SNICKERS AURA item anywhere?  ;D
(you'd have to be a pretty old and hardcore member to get that, I suppose)

Quote
and also it's the light that goku gives off in dragon ball z when he's about to fight and he turns all yellow and rocks float around him and he says uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa for five minutes and then that's when I say YEAH THAT'S GOKU NOW HE'S GONNA KICK SOME ASS NOW CAUSE OF HIS AURA and then I start jumping on my bed and throwing raisinets everywhere cause I love goku cause he can kick ass like that one time where that one alien guy almost killed him but then he said uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa no wait that was when he was almost killed what he really said was uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa and then he made an AURA and then the episode ended

:(

but on the next episode he still had an AURA and rocks were floating and I was like YEAH YEAH and then he shot a beam at the alien guy and he said uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa and then the alien guy was all like OH SHIT and then the episode ended

:(

but on the next episode goku was all like uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa cause of his AURA and then his beam hit the alien guy and he said uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa cause he got hit cause goku's beam was stronger cause of his AURA and then he died and I was all like YEAH YEAH TAKE THAT YOU ALIEN CAUSE GOKU'S THE MAN CAUSE HE KICKED YOUR ASS AND YOU'RE DEAD YOU SON OF A BITCH and then my mommy came in and spanked me so then I threw my raisinets at her and she spanked me again and took away my pokemon cards and it really SUCKS cause I beat up a lot of kids to get that deck and I could kick your ass at pokemon yeah YEAH cause pokemon rules I love koffing the best cause he's got a neat voice cause in the cartoon he says KOFFING and I laugh a lot and fall off my bed and kick and scream and break all my toys until my mommy spanks me cause koffing is so FUCKING funny when he says things and I have all the pokemon games even the stupid picture game but it got broke once when I didn't get my dragon ball z game cause I was at walmart and I said I WANT A DRAGON BALL Z GAME and my mommy said NO MAYBE NEXT TIME and then I stepped on her foot and said NOW BITCH and then she took me outside and spanked me and I was pissed off and I would have kicked her ass but I don't have an AURA so I told her I wished I was goku cause then she would buy me stuff cause I would make rocks float and I would fuck up her car like that and then my mommy's face turned red and she looked so dumb HA HA HA and she drove home and broke my pokemon game but I don't care cause it was the picture game the stupid bitch and then she came back to walmart cause she forgot to pick me up but it's okay since I bought a snickers with the change I found in the parking lot and I was like YEAH I LOVE SNICKERS YEAH YEAH and I tore it into pieces and threw it up in the air and said YEAH I'VE GOT A SNICKERS AURA but there weren't any rocks floating like what goku does so I took another snickers when no one was looking and was gonna use that too but then the first one was gone so I was like FUCK and then my mommy came and she had a goku action figure and said I'M SORRY I GOT UPSET and then I threw my snickers at her FACE.

I like how the readme for their Burning Heroes patch contains a very politely-worded statement that's equivalent to "if you don't like it then do it yourself lol" ("it" in this context possibly meaning inserting alt-right rants the original game writers never intended... Wildbill was involved with this patch, so it's not a huge stretch), like it's something trivial that can be easily done.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Supper on February 12, 2017, 03:47:49 pm
If anyone missed my earlier edit, I fixed a minor issue with the Exile II patch. Get the new version here. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/bbn6q2hvydwqdbu/Exile+II+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip)

(http://i.imgur.com/kCFDfXq.png)

Started work on The Silver Star. This game is a lot more primitive than Eternal Blue, which I guess is to be expected. It looks like it doesn't even have a proper scripting system, just chunks of raw 68000 code interspersed with string tables for each submap. I've set up some basic heuristic string detection, as you can see, but this game will most likely require a lot more manual work than Eternal Blue. It'll probably be a while before the patch is ready.

I've also found the enemy stats, which are mercifully in tables rather than being embedded in scripts like in the sequel. Amazingly, the enemies for the first few areas don't seem to have been touched at all, but that's not going to last since the final boss's HP got cranked up by 1000 points.

Aside from that, the Light Barrier's icon had a hexagram pattern changed to a triangle, and the amount of money you donate to shrines was raised from 10s to 100s. Who knows what else'll pop up once I've checked around more.

EDIT: Oh, and I don't know if anyone cares, but I've done writeups on specific changes made in the US versions for everything up to Exile II. Check them out if you're interested:

Lunar: Eternal Blue (https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences)
Popful Mail (https://tcrf.net/Popful_Mail_%28Sega_CD%29)
Vay (https://tcrf.net/Vay)
Exile (https://tcrf.net/Exile_%28TurboGrafx-CD%29)
Exile II (https://tcrf.net/Exile:_Wicked_Phenomenon)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Exile II)
Post by: noneother on February 12, 2017, 06:34:09 pm
Remembering they did Burning Heroes...
did they at least add a SNICKERS AURA item anywhere?  ;D
(you'd have to be a pretty old and hardcore member to get that, I suppose)

Burning Heroes was a surprisingly bad game in itself so I didn't play it extensively. I went through one or two of the scenarios but don't remember anything about the translation. I do remember that readme having something in it about how the game would please people of "strong moral fiber" or whatever.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: SC on February 13, 2017, 11:37:37 am
Hey Supper, any chance you'd fix Alundra's spanish PAL version?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Supper on February 14, 2017, 04:57:14 am
Hey Supper, any chance you'd fix Alundra's spanish PAL version?

Sure, it should be easy enough. I'll take a look at it (and the Italian version too, I guess) when I get a chance.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: GHANMI on February 14, 2017, 09:35:37 am
Sure, it should be easy enough. I'll take a look at it (and the Italian version too, I guess) when I get a chance.

Oh my, seems like each language got its separate disc. (http://redump.org/discs/quicksearch/alundra/) Sounds like a logistical nightmare  :(

Anyways, I have one more interesting example of a good game that was adversely affected by localisation changes: Breath of Fire 4. CUE translated it to Spanish and released the tools to unpack its archive format, but the links are dead and the tools probably lost as it has been a long while. The problem is that some spells are omitted (because the font choice is poor so text would overlap, hence they cut it) and that the cutscene changes omit and alter event scripting, not just text.
Also speaking of Capcom, all their games with PocketStation features disabled (they're often fully translated), and animal cruelty in Megaman Legends since it has associated dialogue changes with NPCs much later in the story that are just inaccessible as a result.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Supper on February 15, 2017, 09:54:37 pm
Oh, I should have figured it was a full FIGS conversion. Well, what's a couple extra discs? (other than a patch maintenance headache)

Making steady progress on The Silver Star. I've copied back most of the changed material from the Japanese version and begun the painful process of proofreading the script. I'm also trying to improve the English font to look neater, like I mentioned earlier, and figured I'd see if anyone else has any opinions on my first efforts.

(http://i.imgur.com/DxAkQWx.png) (http://i.imgur.com/NPSR11Y.png)

Left is original, right is changed. As you can see, I've shrunk and moved up the capital letters by a pixel so that they have the same baseline as the lower case letters, and also tweaked the letters that looked most awkward to me to try to keep things proportionate. I think it's at least an improvement, though some letters still don't look quite right to me, such as lower case b, c, and d. This isn't my area of expertise; anyone else have any suggestions? In the interest of keeping consistent with the original, I'd prefer to tweak the existing font rather than drop in a new one entirely, though that is an option.

Here's the relevant portion of the full font: original (http://i.imgur.com/StCh4n9.png) and altered (http://i.imgur.com/dxOE3Ep.png). I'll port this over to Eternal Blue whenever everything's settled (and I've gotten around to writing a compressor for its font format).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Pennywise on February 15, 2017, 10:01:25 pm
I don't know if you've considered or looked into it, but a proportional font with kerning would fix the font issues. Ultimately a fixed width font isn't going to be perfect or without some issue.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Supper on February 15, 2017, 11:32:24 pm
I don't know if you've considered or looked into it, but a proportional font with kerning would fix the font issues. Ultimately a fixed width font isn't going to be perfect or without some issue.

Not a bad thought, and the way the game buffers text would be fairly conducive to a VWF hack, but if it's just going to be the same old Working Designs script then it's not really worth the effort to me. Would be great for a proper retranslation project, though.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: vivify93 on February 16, 2017, 12:34:11 am
I think the modified font looks fine. It's stylized and attractive.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Pennywise on February 16, 2017, 08:56:08 am
Not a bad thought, and the way the game buffers text would be fairly conducive to a VWF hack, but if it's just going to be the same old Working Designs script then it's not really worth the effort to me. Would be great for a proper retranslation project, though.

That's a good point. I'm of the opinion that if you're going to go through the trouble of retranslating a game, you might as well go all out. That way there's no question as to what the better translation is.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Asaki on February 16, 2017, 09:32:14 am
I think the font looks fine. It's going to "smudge up" a bit on real hardware anyway.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: thainferno305 on February 16, 2017, 01:33:24 pm
Ty homie I'm enjoying ur work -- This portion was removed by a moderator b/c it constituted "work begging" --
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: vivify93 on February 16, 2017, 05:52:14 pm
I actually couldn't see the entire fonts when I clicked the Imgur links, so I made mirrors.

Before:
(http://i.imgur.com/ZhOmsrn.png)
After:
(http://i.imgur.com/qZSmUAY.png)

Edit - Actually, I can see some very small problems with it.

- ! ? & . , are all going to need to be raised up by one pixel now, as is ¥ if you feel like it.
- You didn't touch the numbers. They'll need to be raised up to meet the lowercase letters' baselines as well.
- Your capital O looks funny at the bottom, like it's got a sharper edge than other letters. Compare it to the uppercase Q, for example. I made a mockup on what I think you should do with it, with the Q next to the O to compare.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ef5rXEC.png)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: GHANMI on February 17, 2017, 12:09:41 am
Supper, before you consider doing any further work on fixing up the Lunar font, take a look at the font they used for Grandia's English PS1 version. It's practically the same, but with the kerning issues fixed. I'll see if I can rip it directly from that version in native resolution without scaling. Your font as it is is fine, well aside from the awful lower-case t.

Spoiler:
(http://gamefaqs.akamaized.net/screens/e/5/1/gfs_42240_2_204.jpg)

Did you find the smaller 8x8 font used in the battle screen for names? I looked in the iso and couldn't find it, unlike the English/JP sets. And what was up with the removed subtitles in the animated cutscenes?

Also, you mentioned modifying the audio is possible in the Sega-CD Lunar games, but how? Information on modding old-school audio isn't exactly abundant online.

That's a good point. I'm of the opinion that if you're going to go through the trouble of retranslating a game, you might as well go all out. That way there's no question as to what the better translation is.

Well, it's technically not a retranslation.
Some of the more glaring annoyances in the text were fixed, but the edits were so far mostly concerned with gameplay aspects.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Supper on February 17, 2017, 12:53:57 am
Supper, before you consider doing any further work on fixing up the Lunar font, take a look at the font they used for Grandia's English PS1 version. It's practically the same, but with the kerning issues fixed. I'll see if I can rip it directly from that version in native resolution without scaling.

Hah, I played Grandia years ago but never noticed that! That would be a nice solution, especially if the Grandia font is still 8x16. Thanks for taking a look, I appreciate it.

Did you find the smaller 8x8 font used in the battle screen for names? I looked in the iso and couldn't find it, unlike the English/JP sets. And what was up with the removed subtitles in the animated cutscenes?

I haven't actually looked for the small font, but it doesn't seem to be in 1bpp or uncompressed format, as you've found. I'll see if I can turn it up later.

I did check on the cutscenes, and the subtitles are basically hardcoded. They aren't formatted as text whatsoever; the game loads the characters it needs and directly writes the tilemaps in a vertical format. I experimented a little and I think that altering them is doable, but it'll take a lot of work. I probably won't bother with them, at least in the initial version of the patch.

Also, you mentioned modifying the audio is possible in the Sega-CD Lunar games, but how? Information on modding old-school audio isn't exactly abundant online.

Well, all I really meant was that the audio itself is uncompressed sign-and-magnitude PCM per the hardware requirements, and obviously you can overwrite that with whatever you want. I don't know how difficult it is to change the length of the data, but I know that in the case of Eternal Blue you can simply copy over the .PCM files from the Japanese version to the US one and it'll work fine. The .PCM files have some additional data in the header that might be loop points, etc., but I haven't looked into that at all.

- ! ? & . , are all going to need to be raised up by one pixel now, as is ¥ if you feel like it.
- You didn't touch the numbers. They'll need to be raised up to meet the lowercase letters' baselines as well.
- Your capital O looks funny at the bottom, like it's got a sharper edge than other letters. Compare it to the uppercase Q, for example. I made a mockup on what I think you should do with it, with the Q next to the O to compare.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ef5rXEC.png)

Thanks for the mirrors -- didn't realize Imgur redirects direct image links to their own viewer (with its black background).

I worked on the font a bit more after posting that, so the numbers are already fixed. I thought the O was like that to begin with, but yeah, it looks like I c&p'd the wrong row -- fixed!

I tried moving up the punctuation marks earlier, but I think they look better where they are:

(http://i.imgur.com/UrW5MiA.png) (http://i.imgur.com/Ua23Rx4.png)

(original / shifted up)

Thanks for the help!

Gonna try to finish up with the script corrections tonight (15 maps to go), then fix the handful of remaining gameplay/graphics changes (turns out LunarNET knew a couple things I didn't). After that I'll do a quick test run through the game, and hopefully then it'll be good to go.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Kallisto on February 17, 2017, 05:16:18 am
Even Thousand Arms got messed with? Now you all are really surprising me.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: vivify93 on February 17, 2017, 10:54:19 am
Gonna try to finish up with the script corrections tonight (15 maps to go), then fix the handful of remaining gameplay/graphics changes (turns out LunarNET knew a couple things I didn't). After that I'll do a quick test run through the game, and hopefully then it'll be good to go.
Sounds great, I'm excited! :) Will you be implementing the new font in Lunar 2 as well?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Supper on February 17, 2017, 01:23:19 pm
Sounds great, I'm excited! :) Will you be implementing the new font in Lunar 2 as well?

That's the plan. It'll take a bit more work because that game uses compressed fonts, for which I've written a decompressor but not yet a recompressor. Nothing too difficult, though. There are also a few other minor changes I missed in Eternal Blue that I'll fix too (like the guy who charges you 30s for information in the JP version but 500s in the US version).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Furluge on February 18, 2017, 12:47:45 pm
I didn't know about rental games being banned in Japan, though -- that's really nuts. Seems like Japanese law is way too corporate-friendly, at least when it comes to games.

Wait you seriously are not aware of this? Yeah game rentals are still illegal in Japan. Here is an article on it. (http://kotaku.com/5914749/why-you-cant-rent-games-in-japan)

You were aware that it was a standard industry practice for the US releases of games to be altered to be harder right? One infamous example is Battletoads, but the entire video game industry did this at the time. If you weren't aware that might explain why you think this is a WD thing. Here is a post on NeoGAF all about it. (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=964030)

Have you been already noticed by senpai...?

It's funny how much hate torrent is coming your way from there about being a purist weaboo not understanding the unreachable secrets of the localisation craft, despite the patches still not including translation changes, or Vic Ireland himself admitting that Exile 2 and Lunar 2's balance changes were indeed a mistake, among other similar less direct comments explaining why they had to do these changes, not that they were good or improvements in any way (about Silhouette Mirage, Popful Mail, and other games).

He is getting a "hate torrent" not for the patch itself it is what he says in his opening, notes and other posts. If he was respectful to the original producer of the translation (You know the people who put their money where their mouth is and put in the work to bring the games over and do the voice acting in a time when that was a brand new thing.) no one would complain. As the old wisdom states: "Don't start none, won't be none."

So if you haven't heard the story by now, Working Designs was an American game publisher in the '90s that specialized in licensing niche Japanese games, totally rewriting their scripts to insert crude jokes and pop culture references, completely wrecking their difficulty by jacking up all the enemies' stats and adding other cheap impediments, then releasing them in the US. (If you like the sound of that, these patches probably aren't for you.)

Most of the games they put out are sufficiently esoteric that no one's interested in doing a retranslation, so often, these butchered versions are the only way to play the games in English. That seemed like a real shame to me, so lately I've been working on this little project to restore the gameplay from the Japanese versions of these games. Since I'm not a translator, I can't do anything about the made-up dialogue, but I'm aiming to at least get the difficulty back to what it was intended to be (and for Lunar, to get the script in lower case!).

Personally I actually like the patches themselves. The sole problem is Supper's attitude coupled with what seems to be a lack of knowledge of the history of the industry at this time. I can also honestly see wanting to go back and do a more literal translation too, but you can't forget this game is over 20 years old and that the industry was different then. Shitting all over a team made up of enthusiasts who poured their soul into bringing over games they wanted to see in the US, anime games from before Pokemon made anime mainstream in the US, because they don't meet your standards 20 years later is not cool.

The funny thing is, again, Victor Ireland is not some cloistered figure in some unassailable corporate ivory tower. He just has a small team and is not hard to contact. If Supper were actually respectful he would probably be getting heartfelt support from the original translator. He could actually get some answers to his questions but since he is so focused on hating them it is never going to happen.

If the OP wasn't enough here are a few other egregious entries from the patch notes.

Quote from: Unworked Designs Popful Mail Patch v2 Notes
Other changes in the US version (e.g. the new title screen music, using C instead of Start to open the menu, the horrible horrible made-up script) have been kept.

Quote from: Unworked Designs Lunar 2 Patch v2 Notes
This is a patch that fixes many issues introduced in the US version of the Sega CD game Lunar: Eternal Blue by its publisher, Working Designs. As you're probably aware if you're reading this, the US release of the game was heavily bastardized;

...

* The opening cutscene, which was mildly censored for the US version, has been replaced with its Japanese version. This has the not-unpleasant side effect of removing the obnoxious Working Designs credits. (They're still in the ending.)(Ed: Cheering about removing the original localizers/voice actors credits from the game is kind of disrespectful. Given the tone about the removal in the opening it is ambiguous if Supper's comment about the ending credits is and admission to assure the reader that credit is given at the end, or disappointment at not being able to remove it at the end.)

Incidentally the Vay patch notes are fine. I can't find anything to complain about. I imagine Supper got more diplomatic after realizing he was upsetting a lot of people.

My main point here is that the rewritten script might be subjectively "better" or "worse" than the original, depending on your tastes, but it's just that -- rewritten. It's not presenting the Japanese more effectively, it's making up something new. And do see Vic's insane defense of the changes, as quoted above (from a Gaijinworks thread about these very hacks, I might add).

For anyone who wants some context you can read the thread yourself. (http://www.gaijinworks.com/interact/showthread.php?1371-Popful-Mail-and-Lunar-II-get-de-WD-d/page5) (He is talking about Lunar being in our future btw, not Popful Mail.) Victor is pretty frank about the changes and why they occured. Probably the most relevant quote.

Quote from: Victor Ireland 1-3-2017
My localization philosophy has been evolving over the last 25 years! You have to remember, when I started, there were no real guidelines - you had pretty much direct translations, or...nothing. Localizing content the way I did it was pretty revolutionary, and while it was over-the-top initially (again, nothing to use as a guide in the beginning), it's evolved over time. That said, almost everyone else doing Jrpgs headed my direction to varying degrees once I laid it all down and we started releasing games localized in a very different way from what was out back then. The rep for Game Arts said it best one of the times he was visiting. He said, "For such a small company, you cast a long shadow."

LUNAR PSX translations were based on the SEGA CD version to a point. LUNAR 2 was supposed to be Zach writing it, but I ended up re-writing quite a bit of what he did, because he had just broken up with one of the other employees at WD and wrote the female characters (most notably Jessica) like total bitches and sex objects, which was wildly inappropriate. Then I had to finish what was left (while recording in the studio, too), because when the text was supposed to be done, he wasn't even close, making excuses about computer crashes, etc that were total BS. It's also the reason Nall is talking about stuff that isn't there in the PSX version of LUNAR 2 in the cave. That was copied verbatim from the SEGA CD version by Zach and missed in the rush to rewrite/finish the text by me. It was really a terrible last 1/4 of that project.

But yes, please keep insulting him by taking one quote out of a full conversation and calling him insane. That will make things better.

If anyone is interested in comparing the JP/EN scripts for themself, I can upload my dialogue extraction tools.

Or for those who do not read Japanese the Lunar changes can be found below.

Lunar The Silver Star English<>Japanese differences Compilation (http://lunar-net.com/tss/tss_diff.php)
Lunar Eternal Blue English<>Japanese differences Compilation (http://lunar-net.com/eb/eb_diff.php)
Lunar Silver Star Story Complete English<>Japanese differences Compilation (http://lunar-net.com/sssc/sss_diff.php)
Lunar2 Eternal Blue Complete English<>Japanese differences Compilation (http://lunar-net.com/ebc/ebc_diff.php)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: MadoKage on February 18, 2017, 07:28:25 pm
Most of the patches works on Wii-Mednafen and Genesis GX Plus (Genesis Emulator for Wii)

The only problem I have is Lunar Eternal Blue, in the crystal cutscene, when the screen fades to black and shows the moon, it does some strange loop and it desyncs through the whole cutscene

this doesn't happen on Fusion
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on February 19, 2017, 01:29:33 am
Just over a month after Eternal Blue, The Silver Star is ready to roll.

Lunar: The Silver Star (Sega CD) -- patch v0 (2/18/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/Khhg3Vf.png) (http://i.imgur.com/U7eYSHV.png) (http://i.imgur.com/TX2rd2V.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/x1jgg5l57a7s3pl/Lunar+The+Silver+Star+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through and should work fine. Since there's so much text, though, it's infeasible for me to check every single conversation for text box overflows and other issues. If anything goes wrong, let me know.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All enemies have their stats restored to their original, lower amounts from the Japanese version. Note that in a rarity for a Working Designs release, only six enemies were changed, mostly bosses.
* Shrine donations were raised to 100s each in the US version; they're now 10s, as in the JP version. It still takes ten donations to get the bonus song, regardless of version.
* In the US version, donations to the shrine near the Red Dragon Cave were mistakenly made to give the player money instead of taking it away. This has been fixed.
* The US version modified the very end of the game to make Alex take extremely high damage from Luna's lightning blasts unless the player uses the Alex's Harp item. This has been restored to the Japanese behavior, where he always takes the reduced amount of damage.
* All hexagrams and pentagrams, which were removed from the US version at Sega of America's behest, have been restored. This includes the icons for the Light Barrier and Power Barrier items, as well as the various teleportation circles throughout the game.
* Xenobia's nude battle graphics have been restored.
* The brief nude shot of Luna in the ending was given a washed-out palette in the US version; it's been reverted to the original one.
* Though not technically a "restoration", all text has been converted to proper mixed case instead of all caps, and has been proofread to remove the most egregious errors.
* Related to the above, the original English font had very poor proportioning that made upper case and lower case letters look very awkward together. This patch tweaks the font to hopefully make it easier on the eyes.

In case anyone missed my earlier post, you'll notice I haven't changed the cutscene subtitles (they're still in all caps, or missing entirely in voiced scenes). Those are a major headache to edit, so I haven't bothered with them yet. I may add them in a later version of the patch.

GHANMI: I decided to go ahead and release this as-is for now. If you get the font from Grandia, please do send it my way so I can update the patch to better match it.

Most of the patches works on Wii-Mednafen and Genesis GX Plus (Genesis Emulator for Wii)

The only problem I have is Lunar Eternal Blue, in the crystal cutscene, when the screen fades to black and shows the moon, it does some strange loop and it desyncs through the whole cutscene

this doesn't happen on Fusion

Hmm. Well, I don't have a real Sega CD to test on, but in lieu of that I'd expect Fusion to be the most accurate (I know many Gens derivatives will outright freeze during some Eternal Blue cutscenes). For the intro cutscene, I really did nothing except copy over the files from the JP version, which I wouldn't expect it to cause a subtle issue like that. I don't know if I can do much about this issue, but thanks for letting me know anyways.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Midna on February 19, 2017, 04:21:53 am

It's possible to be appreciative and critical of someone at the same time. I understand that Panel de Pon pretty much had to be Yoshi-fied to be brought to the US at all back in the mid-'90s, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Likewise--yes, it's possible that we were only able to get Lunar internationally at all because of WD's changes, but by today's standards, the translations (more like localizations) are pretty butchered. Whether or not they're still enjoyable is a matter of taste, but in my view, the purpose of a translation is to ensure the essence of the original script is kept intact in the target language, and in that regard WD failed. Lunar has some funny moments to begin with, but it's largely a serious RPG, and lines like "gruel, gruel, the magical soup, the more you eat the more you poop" have no business being in its script. To put it in incredibly nerdy terms, Working Designs shot for Woolsey and landed in J2E.

Also, Battletoads was a Rare (based in the UK) production, and most of their works for the NES were intended for a North American audience to begin with since the NES faced much stiffer competition from home computers like the Commodore 64 and Spectrum in Europe than in the US. It was actually made easier for the Japanese release. Come back when you know what you're talking about.

Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Kallisto on February 19, 2017, 07:53:25 am
Oo..there was a female half nude monster in the SegaCD version of Lunar 1? Just how different was this game compared to the remakes!?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Piotyr on February 19, 2017, 11:49:02 am
Silver Stars plot was changed A LOT in the remake. I suggest playing the Sega CD version over the remake any day.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Digitsie on February 19, 2017, 03:03:58 pm
In case anyone missed my earlier post, you'll notice I haven't changed the cutscene subtitles (they're still in all caps, or missing entirely in voiced scenes). Those are a major headache to edit, so I haven't bothered with them yet. I may add them in a later version of the patch.

Being hearing impaired, lack of subtitles in voiced scenes annoy the heck out of me too. I don't know how you're gonna add them in though.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: DantzB on February 19, 2017, 04:42:16 pm
-Snip-

Jesus, did really have to white knight Victor like that? *Some* of the things they did were great *at the time*, the rest have aged like milk in the sun.

If he wants to be critical of the quality of the games, he's not wrong too. A lot of the stuff Wrecking Designs did is objectively bad, thus them earning the name.

Being hearing impaired, lack of subtitles in voiced scenes annoy the heck out of me too. I don't know how you're gonna add them in though.

I'm pretty sure it's possible, a lot of translations have been able to pull it off. I don't get why they didn't do it in the first place though, with all the empty space on the screen they had to use properly. 
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Piotyr on February 19, 2017, 04:45:46 pm
Jesus, did really have to white knight Victor like that? *Some* of the things they did were great *at the time*, the rest have aged like milk in the sun.

If he wants to be critical of the quality of the games, he's not wrong too. A lot of the stuff Wrecking Designs did is objectively bad, thus them earning the name.

Heck that quote from Victor even says when they started it was a new thing and not everything they did was the right thing to do.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: DantzB on February 19, 2017, 04:48:58 pm
Heck that quote from Victor even says when they started it was a new thing and not everything they did was the right thing to do.

Yeah, and they were great for taking the first steps in doing that. I dunno, the impression I've always gotten from Ireland is that he can be a pretentious wanker.

I've heard a bit of drama and stuff he's said over the years that makes him seem like that. Especially with the Silver Star remake on PSP.

The blatant white knighting is what bothers me the most though, as if Ireland is going to spontaneously burst into tears because somebody harshly criticized his work.   
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Furluge on February 19, 2017, 05:31:31 pm
Also, Battletoads was a Rare (based in the UK) production.

Looking back on my exact text I realize I wasn't precise in my wording, so to be clear. Yes I know Rare is in the UK and yes the US version came out first. It would have been more correct to say it was standard industry practice to release more difficult versions to the US market than using the Japanese market than to say altered. That is not debatable. The US Battletoads is objectively harder than the JP one. The same as JP Contra Hard Crops has life bars where the US is one hit kill, Ninja Gaiden 3 JP has unlimited continues where US has 3, etc. My poor word choice doesn't change the point being made. Sorry if that made it more confusing to understand.

It's possible to be appreciative and critical of someone at the same time.

I am going to stop you right there. I know your opinion and I understand it, but go back and actually read what I am pointing out, are those the statements of someone appreciative or respectful who just doesn't think the localization meets their standards 20 years later? Should we start cursing Kensuke Tanabe, Shigeru Miyamoto and Hiroshi Yamauchi for turning Doki-Doki Panic into Super Mario Bros. 2 in the US? You have to understand when you are inflammatory about something a lot of people like a lot you are going to attract negativity.

Oo..there was a female half nude monster in the SegaCD version of Lunar 1? Just how different was this game compared to the remakes!?

There are a lot of changes in the remake, IMHO for the better overall. Lunar TSS compared to EB Studio Alex really solidified the core gameplay ideas of Lunar in EB. It established the inventory and equipment system and restorative item balance and various common ranges like enemy zone spells and the different strengths of the dragon spells. These improvements carry over to SSSC. In TSS Your inventory window is Nall's inventory and carrying items into battle requires equipping them into an equipment slot but you have many many more slots and a lot more armor pieces. There are althena herbs you get for free from Ramus end game that max heal the whole party on use. The remake adds a lot more about the four heroes and Ghaleon's motives. Both are worth playing and there is no excuse not to but there is no reason to feel like you missed out with the remake vs the original. The Story in TSS is still quite good though IIRC SSSC does some editing to tighten up the narrative where I think TSS got a bit rambly at the end. Please forgive me if I do not remember as well I have not played TSS again since 1995.

The blatant white knighting is what bothers me the most though, as if Ireland is going to spontaneously burst into tears because somebody harshly criticized his work.   

Since you aren't catching the nuiance of what I have been trying to say, here is a TL;DR just for you

TL;DR: Yeah I understand why you might not like the translation 20 years later but that doesn't mean you need to be an asshole about it.

(Or I dunno DantzB, maybe you think removing stuff like credits from someone's work is cool or something?)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Sara-chan on February 19, 2017, 05:52:42 pm
When it comes to Lunar... I know a lot of people prefer TSS over SSSC, but I admittedly know I'd personally really love to see the Complete versions get proper treatment too. I quite like the Sega CD games, but they aren't the ones that got me into the series originally.

You know, balance changes are such an interesting topic to me in general when comparing regional versions of games. I've sometimes had suggestions made about (mostly very minor) balance changes for things I've worked on professionally, though rarely did anything make it in. When I worked on Bunny Must Die's official English PC release, though, it was really interesting because I was handed a version with way different balance and various changes compared to the version people knew to begin with, even before the localization process begin.

I wonder how many times stuff like that ended up being a case of that? It certainly has been the case many times, for games that were basically "further finished" for their overseas releases. I find it fascinating.

Edit: vvv Sort of! The PS4 version of Bunny Must Die had a lot of the changes that had been made in the version I worked on, including the Arranged Soundtrack I personally got approval for and directed! Thing is, it also had way, way more changes, too, and it didn't use the English translation I'd worked on at all, opting for a brand-new one instead that has... a much different angle to it.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Piotyr on February 19, 2017, 05:54:14 pm
TL;DR: Yeah I understand why you might not like the translation 20 years later but that doesn't mean you need to be an asshole about it.
Once you put something up for sale you lose any right to have your feelings protected in this sort of thing.
People paid for Lunar and got fart jokes, we are allowed to call it what it is, a bastardization. If this was a fan translation I could see how you would want us to be more respectful since it was done using someones free time but this was his job. I don't care if it was one of the first, I don't care if it paved the way for the future, in the end it is a bad translation and I will gladly call it like I see it.
I cut him some slack but I don't cut his work the same slack.

You know, balance changes are such an interesting topic to me in general when comparing regional versions of games. I've sometimes had suggestions made about (mostly very minor) balance changes for things I've worked on professionally, though rarely did anything make it in. When I worked on Bunny Must Die's official English PC release, though, it was really interesting because I was handed a version with way different balance and various changes compared to the version people knew to begin with, even before the localization process begin.

I wonder how many times stuff like that ended up being a case of that? It certainly has been the case many times, for games that were basically "further finished" for their overseas releases. I find it fascinating.

A lot of games get this but then they are back ported to the Japanese side as a "International" version or some such. Did this happen for any of your projects?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Furluge on February 19, 2017, 06:07:08 pm
Once you put something up for sale you lose any right to have your feelings protected in this sort of thing.
People paid for Lunar and got fart jokes, we are allowed to call it what it is, a bastardization. If this was a fan translation I could see how you would want us to be more respectful since it was done using someones free time but this was his job. I don't care if it was one of the first, I don't care if it paved the way for the future, in the end it is a bad translation and I will gladly call it like I see it.
I cut him some slack but I don't cut his work the same slack.

Well then if you are going to be hateful you should not be surprised when you deservedly get hate back in kind.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Spooniest on February 19, 2017, 06:18:04 pm
Vic Ireland is probably glad he can safely ignore Lunar: The Silver Star at this point. If you told him this was happening, he might take issue with VA credits being removed, Furluge, however, I do not believe he would make a point of taking any kind of action or speaking on the matter at all.

To be honest with you, the VAs themselves might not mind their names being taken off of it...it is not as though it was a high-profile job.

You seem as a person who views the world through the lens of the video gaming industry a lot, if you wouldn't mind my putting so fine a point on it. The gaming industry is very ...hmm... outsider, I would call it. Like what they call "outsider art."

...I lost my train of thought again. Thanks for Lunar 1 Supper, you rule, don't cuss Vic Ireland it's upsetting Furluge
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: DantzB on February 19, 2017, 06:56:20 pm
Since you aren't catching the nuiance of what I have been trying to say, here is a TL;DR just for you

TL;DR: Yeah I understand why you might not like the translation 20 years later but that doesn't mean you need to be an asshole about it.

(Or I dunno DantzB, maybe you think removing stuff like credits from someone's work is cool or something?)

Tl;dr, you're butthurt over something 99%, that even give a shit about this in the first place, thinks is bad. Shitty localization is shitty localization. Mario 2 = good localization, Yakuza 3 =  shitty, and various games in between with varying offences.


And about the credits, I think it's a little funky but who really cares (besides you?) People who've already played Lunar are these patches main audience and I bet most don't even give a shit in the first place.

And just skimming through the thread, I don't see the "hate" that Supper is getting, just you ranting and others discussing and disagreeing things normally.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Piotyr on February 19, 2017, 07:06:29 pm
Tl;dr, you're butthurt over something 99%, that even give a shit about this in the first place, thinks is bad. Shitty localization is shitty localization. Mario 2 = good localization, Yakuza 3 =  shitty, and various games in between with varying offences.


And about the credits, I think it's a little funky but who the hell really cares (besides you?) People who've already played Lunar are these patches main audience and I bet most don't even give a shit in the first place.

No need to get rude.
Also Mario 2 is more of a remake than a localization, just like the wonderboy in monster land localization that change all the characters. Hell they ported Mario 2 back to japan as "Mario USA", not many people mention that when flaunting their knowledge of Doki Doki Panic :P.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: DantzB on February 19, 2017, 07:14:38 pm
No need to get rude.
Also Mario 2 is more of a remake than a localization, just like the wonderboy in monster land localization that change all the characters. Hell they ported Mario 2 back to japan as "Mario USA", not many people mention that when flaunting their knowledge of Doki Doki Panic :P.


I honestly sorry if I'm coming across as such, I did remove some stuff here and there that was a bit much. It's a bad first impression.

Mario 2 is a pretty interesting exception, it's been localized so much it's pretty much a new game. But at it's core it's Doki Doki Panic. Really the only thing they did was Mario-fy the game and add a run button.

A better example of localization would probably be the SNES era Square games and some people debate about that heavily too.  At least they didn't stray too much in the gameplay department.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on February 19, 2017, 10:09:22 pm
Starting work on fixing the stuff I missed in Eternal Blue. Don't know how long that'll take, but I'll look into the non-English versions of Alundra at some point during or after that.

Being hearing impaired, lack of subtitles in voiced scenes annoy the heck out of me too. I don't know how you're gonna add them in though.

Based on a little experimentation, I think the cutscene format is flexible enough that I can just add in the extra graphics and commands to display them without having to adjust much else, but I shouldn't get too far ahead of myself.

When it comes to Lunar... I know a lot of people prefer TSS over SSSC, but I admittedly know I'd personally really love to see the Complete versions get proper treatment too. I quite like the Sega CD games, but they aren't the ones that got me into the series originally.

You know, balance changes are such an interesting topic to me in general when comparing regional versions of games. I've sometimes had suggestions made about (mostly very minor) balance changes for things I've worked on professionally, though rarely did anything make it in. When I worked on Bunny Must Die's official English PC release, though, it was really interesting because I was handed a version with way different balance and various changes compared to the version people knew to begin with, even before the localization process begin.

I wonder how many times stuff like that ended up being a case of that? It certainly has been the case many times, for games that were basically "further finished" for their overseas releases. I find it fascinating.

Edit: vvv Sort of! The PS4 version of Bunny Must Die had a lot of the changes that had been made in the version I worked on, including the Arranged Soundtrack I personally got approval for and directed! Thing is, it also had way, way more changes, too, and it didn't use the English translation I'd worked on at all, opting for a brand-new one instead that has... a much different angle to it.

Heh, my most distinct memory of playing BMD (with the unofficial English patch, years and years ago) is giving up at the final boss after a great deal of agony and probably screaming. Guess I can understand why they might have wanted to tweak that a bit...

Yeah, the Complete versions are a lot more popular, and I'll probably end up taking a look at them sooner or later. I'm not planning these out at all, so we'll see when my interest drifts that way.

While original developers certainly do their own tweaks -- the numerous "International" Final Fantasies are an excellent example -- I'm reasonably certain that in this case, Working Designs was usually the one who asked for the difficulty changes. At the very least, Vic stated that was the case for Exile II, and I doubt that was the only one. By 1996, they'd hired their own programmer and had source-level access to the games, so at that point they were definitely the ones responsible. I do think that for the earlier games, some of the changes might have been done beforehand by the original developer, like how you can only gain one level per battle in the Japanese version of The Silver Star but more than one in the US version.

Wait you seriously are not aware of this? Yeah game rentals are still illegal in Japan. Here is an article on it. (http://kotaku.com/5914749/why-you-cant-rent-games-in-japan)

You were aware that it was a standard industry practice for the US releases of games to be altered to be harder right? One infamous example is Battletoads, but the entire video game industry did this at the time. If you weren't aware that might explain why you think this is a WD thing. Here is a post on NeoGAF all about it. (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=964030)

He is getting a "hate torrent" not for the patch itself it is what he says in his opening, notes and other posts. If he was respectful to the original producer of the translation (You know the people who put their money where their mouth is and put in the work to bring the games over and do the voice acting in a time when that was a brand new thing.) no one would complain. As the old wisdom states: "Don't start none, won't be none."

Personally I actually like the patches themselves. The sole problem is Supper's attitude coupled with what seems to be a lack of knowledge of the history of the industry at this time. I can also honestly see wanting to go back and do a more literal translation too, but you can't forget this game is over 20 years old and that the industry was different then. Shitting all over a team made up of enthusiasts who poured their soul into bringing over games they wanted to see in the US, anime games from before Pokemon made anime mainstream in the US, because they don't meet your standards 20 years later is not cool.

The funny thing is, again, Victor Ireland is not some cloistered figure in some unassailable corporate ivory tower. He just has a small team and is not hard to contact. If Supper were actually respectful he would probably be getting heartfelt support from the original translator. He could actually get some answers to his questions but since he is so focused on hating them it is never going to happen.

If the OP wasn't enough here are a few other egregious entries from the patch notes.

Incidentally the Vay patch notes are fine. I can't find anything to complain about. I imagine Supper got more diplomatic after realizing he was upsetting a lot of people.

For anyone who wants some context you can read the thread yourself. (http://www.gaijinworks.com/interact/showthread.php?1371-Popful-Mail-and-Lunar-II-get-de-WD-d/page5) (He is talking about Lunar being in our future btw, not Popful Mail.) Victor is pretty frank about the changes and why they occured. Probably the most relevant quote.

But yes, please keep insulting him by taking one quote out of a full conversation and calling him insane. That will make things better.

Or for those who do not read Japanese the Lunar changes can be found below.

Lunar The Silver Star English<>Japanese differences Compilation (http://lunar-net.com/tss/tss_diff.php)
Lunar Eternal Blue English<>Japanese differences Compilation (http://lunar-net.com/eb/eb_diff.php)
Lunar Silver Star Story Complete English<>Japanese differences Compilation (http://lunar-net.com/sssc/sss_diff.php)
Lunar2 Eternal Blue Complete English<>Japanese differences Compilation (http://lunar-net.com/ebc/ebc_diff.php)

Whoa, I totally missed this post! Sorry for not replying earlier. I'd rather be programming than having an argument, but since you're twisting my words quite a bit here, I suppose I have to set the record straight.

You're going quite a bit out of your way to interpret what I said as heinously as possible. When I expressed approval of "removing the obnoxious Working Designs credits", I was referring to the fact that unlike every other game publishing company I've ever seen, Working Designs insisted on listing their own staff in the most prominent positions at the very top of the credits, displacing the credits for the game's actual directors, producers and so on. As I explicitly stated, removing those credits was a side effect of copying over the cutscene from the Japanese version rather than some malignant action on my part. I have absolutely no desire to withhold credit from anyone involved in the production of the game, and Working Designs certainly did. If those had been the only credits in the game, I would have taken more care to leave them in, but the fact is that the game has no less than two other staff roll sequences in which Working Designs receives full credit.

Despite your assertions to the contrary, I do, in fact, hold a great deal of respect -- of a kind -- for Working Designs and Victor Ireland. The guy went to Japan, made contacts, hashed out licensing deals, and made all the arrangements to have these games translated, dubbed, and reprogrammed for release in the US. That takes a level of effort and organization far beyond anything I could ever manage, and in that respect he's an admirable figure. The problem is that all that effort ultimately went into creating gag translations that fundamentally misrepresent the original games. "Enthusiasm" and "it was 20 years ago" are not excuses for ruining someone else's creation, and I know of no other company that engaged in the kind of egocentric, wholesale script replacement that Working Designs did. The Working Designs rewrites are incredibly disrespectful to the authors of the original works, and I will not apologize for rightfully disparaging them.

Increasing games' difficulty in the West, though it certainly happened, was hardly "standard industry practice" -- there are hundreds of examples of contemporary games that were left untouched or even made easier for international release (especially in the 32-bit era and beyond -- Final Fantasy VII and VIII didn't have their difficulty cranked up in the US, but Alundra and Silhouette Mirage sure did!). But putting that aside, I do understand that Working Designs had a substantial commercial motive: to make money, they needed to reduce rentals and sell strategy guides, and making the games harder was an excellent way of facilitating those goals. Now, I hardly think Vic was using the money to line his own pockets -- the point was to keep the company solvent and able to release more games. Unfortunately, that does nothing to mitigate the fact that the increased difficulty of the games makes them -- to my tastes -- less enjoyable than the originals, which is why I'm making these patches in the first place.

My point with all this is that Working Designs was not simply "following the crowd", as you would have me believe. Their releases of games pervert the originals in a unique and disgusting way far beyond any of their contemporaries, and they deserve all the criticism they get for doing so. It's great that they brought the games to the US at a time when no one else would, but it's absolutely appalling how they did it. If Victor Ireland's come to acknowledge that, great! (From what people are saying about Gaijinworks and Summon Night, it doesn't sound like it, though.) But frankly, I don't have anything to ask him that he hasn't already made crystal-clear.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: GHANMI on February 20, 2017, 09:17:26 am
Supper, it seems the Grandia font is compressed in the ISO.
I'll see if I can extract it from RAM, or at least screenshoot an ascii test at native resolution.
But you going ahead with the release is alright, because the difference is barely noticeable - in fact your own fixed font is better imo.

Having the de/recompression tools for Lunar 2 would be lovely too :)

Well then if you are going to be hateful you should not be surprised when you deservedly get hate back in kind.

Quote
He is getting a "hate torrent" not for the patch itself it is what he says in his opening, notes and other posts.

Quote
You have to understand when you are inflammatory about something a lot of people like a lot you are going to attract negativity.

So you basically admit you only came here to give hate to poor Supper, as "justice" would have it and expectation of courtesy be damned, eh? Like holy shit, at least be more subtle about it.

By your own standards Victor Ireland has been "disrespecting" the Japanese developers so much in his interviews and statements, precisely when "justifying" his "improvements"... "Stupid", "boring", "broken", "too easy", "pedophile bait" (about Idolmasters)... Sooo, I'd say bashing content creators isn't particularly upsetting to him and it's only fair game his own translation mockery work be subjected to similar "criticism".
Supper, for all the criticism and rants put in the readme didn't attack the individuals but rather the work and the undeniable sorry state it was released as (even Victor Ireland admits at many times lots of these were "mistakes"), but the way you make it sound it's as if it was the opposite.

And what "realities of the industry 20 years ago" are you even talking about? The decision to cancel SMB2 was by Nintendo of America because it was "too hard". And those marketing suits sending Japan some half-assed English scripts surely aren't the "creatives" insulted by any fan disapproval for this decision, they're not Miyamoto or company.
For the same reason, a release of Bio Miracle Uppa was killed, a finished Final Fantasy V translation scrapped, and FF4 stripped of a whole gameplay mechanic. And as the inclusion of Lost Levels in the SNES Mario compilation (complete with lots of advertising for it and a contest for which one gets to World 9 first) and late PS1 releases of the skipped FF games proves these decisions weren't the immutable word of business wisdom you're making them seem and that even the companies themselves saw the error of their ways.

Not to mention RPGs and games back then were being localised with the original difficulty intact, and the text generally matching the original intent pretty closely, rather than hard type romhacks with abridged dub scripts. For "industry standards", they're not that enforced.

And what's with your weird insistence that Working Designs did no wrong and the patch being unwarranted, then that anyone having issues with the game must be a psychotic literal translation fanatic, then that Vic Ireland should be consulted for feedback on whether he should touch the hex editor tools or not, then attacking the patch author in more direct terms?
Does this patch's existence bother you that bad? Considering it doesn't rob you from experiencing your Lunar discs the way WD released them, it it you being more worried than people might be aware of these differences or experience those games in any other way than what Studio Alex Working Designs TM intended it?

You could ignore the patch's existence, its horrible release notes, the horrible negativity as more unfounded complains about the glorious WD releases are pointed out to be fixed, and just play the perfect immaculate satisfactory Working Designs releases in their original... well original isn't the best word here, in their localized version by Working Designs TM.
Or you could continue to bear the cross of the defender of localisations against any restoration patches defiling them. With the power of love hate!

It's unreal how some people rationalize attacking perfect strangers for making stuff they don't like, moreso when the amount of work involved is that important and often going thankless at best. If you're irritated by this so much, just move on rather than making the day worse for everyone involved.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Gary_Oak on February 20, 2017, 09:17:26 am
I almost forgot that Working Designs also messed with the difficulty balance of Albert Odyssey: Legend of Eldean, another RPG gem for the Saturn.

Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Recapnation on February 20, 2017, 10:32:12 am
I mentioned it:

http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,23436.msg328760.html#msg328760

Was Dragon Force ported by WD? Not sure if there's something "rebalanced", though.

Unrelated, but has anybody tried to "insert" Grandia's English translation into the original, much better Saturn version?


And thanks once more to Supper. With his work, the original pieces, as well as the subject itself, will be better known from now on in the West. Or at least, the possibility is there now for those who care.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Alundra)
Post by: Furluge on February 20, 2017, 10:45:39 am
over something 99%, that even give a shit about this in the first place, thinks is bad. Shitty localization is shitty localization.

I hate to tell you this but the number of people upset by the localization of the Lunar games is far outweighed by the number of people who like it.

It's unreal how some people rationalize attacking perfect strangers for making stuff they don't like, moreso when the amount of work involved is that important and often going thankless at best. If you're irritated by this so much, just move on rather than making the day worse for everyone involved.

Expressing concern and disagreement is not an attack. Let me tell clue you in on a little behind the scenes. Since I have a new account, my posts up until this and my previous post have required moderator approval before posting. That means a moderator had to see, read and approve it. If there was anything that violated rule#1 of the forum, "Act friendly, maturely, and respectfully to all your fellow community members," you and I wouldn't even be talking right now.

You're going quite a bit out of your way to interpret what I said as heinously as possible. When I expressed approval of "removing the obnoxious Working Designs credits", I was referring to the fact that unlike every other game publishing company I've ever seen, Working Designs insisted on listing their own staff in the most prominent positions at the very top of the credits, displacing the credits for the game's actual directors, producers and so on. As I explicitly stated, removing those credits was a side effect of copying over the cutscene from the Japanese version rather than some malignant action on my part. I have absolutely no desire to withhold credit from anyone involved in the production of the game, and Working Designs certainly did. If those had been the only credits in the game, I would have taken more care to leave them in, but the fact is that the game has no less than two other staff roll sequences in which Working Designs receives full credit.

Despite your assertions to the contrary, I do, in fact, hold a great deal of respect -- of a kind -- for Working Designs and Victor Ireland. The guy went to Japan, made contacts, hashed out licensing deals, and made all the arrangements to have these games translated, dubbed, and reprogrammed for release in the US. That takes a level of effort and organization far beyond anything I could ever manage, and in that respect he's an admirable figure. The problem is that all that effort ultimately went into creating gag translations that fundamentally misrepresent the original games. "Enthusiasm" and "it was 20 years ago" are not excuses for ruining someone else's creation, and I know of no other company that engaged in the kind of egocentric, wholesale script replacement that Working Designs did. The Working Designs rewrites are incredibly disrespectful to the authors of the original works, and I will not apologize for rightfully disparaging them.

Increasing games' difficulty in the West, though it certainly happened, was hardly "standard industry practice" -- there are hundreds of examples of contemporary games that were left untouched or even made easier for international release (especially in the 32-bit era and beyond -- Final Fantasy VII and VIII didn't have their difficulty cranked up in the US, but Alundra and Silhouette Mirage sure did!). But putting that aside, I do understand that Working Designs had a substantial commercial motive: to make money, they needed to reduce rentals and sell strategy guides, and making the games harder was an excellent way of facilitating those goals. Now, I hardly think Vic was using the money to line his own pockets -- the point was to keep the company solvent and able to release more games. Unfortunately, that does nothing to mitigate the fact that the increased difficulty of the games makes them -- to my tastes -- less enjoyable than the originals, which is why I'm making these patches in the first place.

My point with all this is that Working Designs was not simply "following the crowd", as you would have me believe. Their releases of games pervert the originals in a unique and disgusting way far beyond any of their contemporaries, and they deserve all the criticism they get for doing so. It's great that they brought the games to the US at a time when no one else would, but it's absolutely appalling how they did it. If Victor Ireland's come to acknowledge that, great! (From what people are saying about Gaijinworks and Summon Night, it doesn't sound like it, though.) But frankly, I don't have anything to ask him that he hasn't already made crystal-clear.

Obviously I don't think you and I are going to come to any sort of agreement. I mean I could pull up other examples of US releases being made harder or other examples or comments from other translators about what goes into translating something comedic from Japanese to English, but that obviously isn't going to sway you as you're pretty set on hating WD. I would implore you to revise your word choices vs the inflammatory route you've gone with. It's going to be better in the long run. Even if that's what you personally thing a more diplomatic face is what you should have on your posts and notes. If you think I'm taking things the wrong way, that's just how it can look to a stranger, reading your text, who has never met you before.

Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Spooniest on February 20, 2017, 11:46:35 am
Furluge.

Do. you. have. anything. positive. to. contribute. to. the. discussion?  :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Midna on February 20, 2017, 11:51:03 am
He's just here to hate on people for having a different opinion. That, or he doesn't seem to realize that people can get very passionate over things that are important to them (like localization fidelity, for instance).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: KingMike on February 20, 2017, 11:54:43 am
As to other games removing credits, I recall Breath of Fire 1 (the SNES version) somehow managing to fill the credits sequence with localization credits, leaving the original developers to a "all Capcom Japan staff" credit or something.
Or is my memory wrong?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Furluge on February 20, 2017, 01:58:15 pm
Furluge.

Do. you. have. anything. positive. to. contribute. to. the. discussion?  :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:

The. Patch. Itself. Is. Quite. Nice. I. Did. Not. Really. Care. For. Popful. Mail's. Difficulty. Increase. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Spooniest on February 20, 2017, 02:27:07 pm
If I jumped every time a light went off around here, I'd end up talking to myself  :-\


Just over a month after Eternal Blue, The Silver Star is ready to roll.

By the way Supper, I tested on GensPlus GX on a Wii...erm...the music of cutscenes is not starting at the appropriate place. It is starting, I'd estimate, 1-2 seconds into the playback of the tracks...

Something to do with your .cue file I think...? Fuzzy on the tech.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: lexluthermiester on February 20, 2017, 03:42:26 pm
Still having problems making the Popful Mail patch work. Can anyone verify that they've got it working? And if so, what version of ISO was being used? And what are its hashes or other identifying characteristics?

Edit, The ISO I'm generating with my copy of the game is not working with this patch. So thinking the one needed is different.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Furluge on February 20, 2017, 05:06:42 pm
Still having problems making the Popful Mail patch work. Can anyone verify that they've got it working? And if so, what version of ISO was being used? And what are its hashes or other identifying characteristics?

Yes I got it working. I'm using it with the lr-genesis-plus-gx core for Retroarch with the current distro of Retropie. Audio skips a but and I only tested to the part of the first level but it seems to work ok. I doubt think the hash will help since it should be different if you have different source image. I used a bit/cue image and used the batch file for patching a bin on Windows 7. It output an iso and waves for cd audio tracks, I copied these files and the provided cue to the pie and ran it.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: GHANMI on February 20, 2017, 08:19:23 pm
As to other games removing credits, I recall Breath of Fire 1 (the SNES version) somehow managing to fill the credits sequence with localization credits, leaving the original developers to a "all Capcom Japan staff" credit or something.
Or is my memory wrong?

The French version of Tail Concerto is something to behold in that regard. The credits (http://youtu.be/d4Ydc77fc6s?t=15m40s) (cringy Let's Play audio warning) are just the 4/5 Bandai France staff credits and "And Special Thanks to the Japanese Staff" repeated over and over just to fill space. It seems they bothered to implement English text for the credits yet were too "lazy" (if we're being charitable) to properly credit anyone but their own. Even leaving them completely untranslated like in Breath of Fire IV would have been better.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on February 20, 2017, 09:11:21 pm
Supper, it seems the Grandia font is compressed in the ISO.
I'll see if I can extract it from RAM, or at least screenshoot an ascii test at native resolution.
But you going ahead with the release is alright, because the difference is barely noticeable - in fact your own fixed font is better imo.

Having the de/recompression tools for Lunar 2 would be lovely too :)

All right, thanks. I figure that matching an official source as closely as possible keeps things uncontroversial.

I've been meaning to put the various tools I've written on Github, but most of them were only designed for my personal use and are extremely messy, have no documentation, require manual commenting/uncommenting of features, etc. I'll try to work something out in the near future.

Obviously I don't think you and I are going to come to any sort of agreement. I mean I could pull up other examples of US releases being made harder or other examples or comments from other translators about what goes into translating something comedic from Japanese to English, but that obviously isn't going to sway you as you're pretty set on hating WD. I would implore you to revise your word choices vs the inflammatory route you've gone with. It's going to be better in the long run. Even if that's what you personally thing a more diplomatic face is what you should have on your posts and notes. If you think I'm taking things the wrong way, that's just how it can look to a stranger, reading your text, who has never met you before.

Well, it's fine by me to agree to disagree, because I don't intend to argue this point further regardless. But I will say that while there are times when it's best to keep your opinion to yourself, I see no problem with expressing my views in patch notes and other places that don't interfere with actual use of the patch. Now, if I had injected my opinions into the game itself, where the player couldn't avoid them, that would be quite inappropriate. But gee, who would do something so inconsiderate?...

If I jumped every time a light went off around here, I'd end up talking to myself  :-\


By the way Supper, I tested on GensPlus GX on a Wii...erm...the music of cutscenes is not starting at the appropriate place. It is starting, I'd estimate, 1-2 seconds into the playback of the tracks...

Something to do with your .cue file I think...? Fuzzy on the tech.

Thanks for reporting this -- I did discover an issue with the CUE file that made the intro music go out of sync (forgot the pregap on audio track 2). However, that doesn't sound exactly the same as the problem you're having. Before I update the patch, could you possibly test with this CUE file (http://www.mediafire.com/file/8z73ruuw7ayag6l/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test1.cue) to see if it fixes everything? If that one is still buggy, try this one (http://www.mediafire.com/file/iw0o1do4ujabmio/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test2.cue).

Still having problems making the Popful Mail patch work. Can anyone verify that they've got it working? And if so, what version of ISO was being used? And what are its hashes or other identifying characteristics?

Edit, The ISO I'm generating with my copy of the game is not working with this patch. So thinking the one needed is different.

Hmm, this could be problematic. The BIN file I extracted the ISO from has CRC-32 0108e138, but redump lists the canonical CRC-32 as b36f32ae. The expected MD5 hash of the extracted ISO is c4c3529ece286fb7b007a432a50c0c31 -- could you possibly check the MD5 of your ISO to see if it matches that? I'll check to see if the dump is bad or if I've messed something else up, but in the meantime you might try using a BIN created with a different ripping program. Sorry for the trouble, and thanks for reporting.

EDIT: I just confirmed against a verified BIN rip that the MD5 hash listed above is the correct one for the ISO, assuming this isn't another bchunk bug. All that matters for the purpose of this patch is that the extracted ISO is correct, so check the MD5 of your ISO. If it's not c4c3529ece286fb7b007a432a50c0c31, it's a problem with the rip you're using. If the MD5 is correct, there may be some other issue. Just to be 100% sure, you're using the latest version (v2) of the patch?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Spooniest on February 21, 2017, 01:34:34 am
Thanks for reporting this -- I did discover an issue with the CUE file that made the intro music go out of sync (forgot the pregap on audio track 2). However, that doesn't sound exactly the same as the problem you're having. Before I update the patch, could you possibly test with this CUE file (http://www.mediafire.com/file/8z73ruuw7ayag6l/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test1.cue) to see if it fixes everything? If that one is still buggy, try this one (http://www.mediafire.com/file/iw0o1do4ujabmio/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test2.cue).

Test 1: Identical to previous patch used, still starting 1-2 seconds late...or it seems like the music is starting early during "Fighting Through The Darkness" (the horn blast on the A minor chord, after the triplet on the snare drum, is supposed to sync with the lightning strike somehow), and then not starting until it's 1-2 seconds into the intro music ("In the sleepy village of Burg"...it's like, Tangerine Dream synth, with toms, and a temple chime, or something, at the end of every measure).

Test 2: No music at all. None of the redbook will load with that one.

For your info, I am loading it off of a SanDisk USB Flash drive...were you expecting an SD card?

My SD card only has 2gb on it...no room for CD games. They both load other games just fine.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on February 21, 2017, 03:47:00 am
Test 1: Identical to previous patch used, still starting 1-2 seconds late...or it seems like the music is starting early during "Fighting Through The Darkness" (the horn blast on the A minor chord, after the triplet on the snare drum, is supposed to sync with the lightning strike somehow), and then not starting until it's 1-2 seconds into the intro music ("In the sleepy village of Burg"...it's like, Tangerine Dream synth, with toms, and a temple chime, or something, at the end of every measure).

Test 2: No music at all. None of the redbook will load with that one.

For your info, I am loading it off of a SanDisk USB Flash drive...were you expecting an SD card?

My SD card only has 2gb on it...no room for CD games. They both load other games just fine.

Okay, I think I see what's going on here. If you open audio track 4 in a media player, what is its length closer to -- 1:10 or 1:12? Are there a couple of seconds of silence before the music starts?

If there are, I'm guessing you patched an ISO/WAV rip which incorrectly had the pregaps "baked into" the audio tracks, which emulators (at least) don't seem to handle properly. If possible, you should try patching again using a BIN/CUE rip. Then use this CUE sheet (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ckk4wugc8pex6n4/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test3.cue) instead of the one provided with the patch, and I think everything will work. If you can't use a BIN/CUE rip, you could also just chop the first 2 seconds off of every audio file.

If there's no silence at the start, I'm not sure what the problem is. Try using the alternate CUE sheet above anyway to see what happens.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Spooniest on February 21, 2017, 08:47:05 am
How do I verify the version of a CD game? I am using a Bin/Cue rip...but I don't know if it's the one you're using.

Sorry for wasting your time. :(
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: GHANMI on February 21, 2017, 10:31:51 am
How do I verify the version of a CD game? I am using a Bin/Cue rip...but I don't know if it's the one you're using.

Sorry for wasting your time. :(

Use a CRC/SHA hash calculator utility and check the value you get against the ones on redump.org
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Spooniest on February 21, 2017, 11:44:05 am
Use a CRC/SHA hash calculator utility and check the value you get against the ones on redump.org

Thanks Ghanmi.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on February 21, 2017, 06:27:44 pm
How do I verify the version of a CD game? I am using a Bin/Cue rip...but I don't know if it's the one you're using.

Sorry for wasting your time. :(

Oh, no, I'm the one who should apologize -- the patch isn't working right!

If you are using a BIN/CUE, that's interesting. Could you possibly upload just the CUE file somewhere? It may be specifying the audio tracks in a way that makes bchunk output them differently from what I expected. Also, did you check to see if there's extra silence at the start of the audio tracks? I don't mean to harp on this, but I'm operating on the assumption that that's the root issue here. Sorry for all the trouble.

EDIT: Also, is your BIN file 498,555,792 bytes in size?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Spooniest on February 21, 2017, 09:52:37 pm
498,555,792 bytes in Size.
498,556,928 bytes in Size on disk.

...I don't know the difference between the two and they are the same number of figures so here? :D

Um...my .cue file, upload it?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4m7g4x7g74lvkji/Lunar%20-%20The%20Silver%20Star%20%28Sega%20CD%29%20%28U%29.cue (https://www.dropbox.com/s/4m7g4x7g74lvkji/Lunar%20-%20The%20Silver%20Star%20%28Sega%20CD%29%20%28U%29.cue)

I am sorry that looks ugly, I'm tired and don't feel like fixing it. The backspace key works though so this sentence ended up typo-free.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on February 22, 2017, 02:24:36 am
It sounds like your BIN and CUE are fine. That being the case, your audio files should also be fine, which leaves the possibility that this is a difference in how GPGX handles ISO/WAV/CUE compared to other emulators. What I can tell you is that, for a verified BIN/CUE dump patched using binpatch.bat, this CUE file (http://www.mediafire.com/file/rp1m1ifa4wlhday/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked.cue) works correctly in Fusion and Gens.

I don't have GPGX set up at the moment, so right now I can't test this personally to see what the problem is. If the third test CUE file (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ckk4wugc8pex6n4/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test3.cue) I linked above didn't cause any change whatsoever, then I'm quite stumped. I hate to leave you hanging, but at this point I'm not sure there's much I can do short of setting up the emulator and testing it myself. Sorry :(
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Furluge on February 22, 2017, 06:02:55 pm
498,555,792 bytes in Size.
498,556,928 bytes in Size on disk.

...I don't know the difference between the two and they are the same number of figures so here?

Size on disk is how much space your file takes on your disk due to how it is formatted. Hard drive sectors are organized into clusters and only one file can occupy a cluster though a file may be in multiple clusters. Any space left over in the cluster is wasted. For example ntfs has 4kb clusters by default so a 1kb file takes up 4kb on the disk.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Spooniest on February 22, 2017, 11:41:37 pm
Size on disk is how much space your file takes on your disk due to how it is formatted. Hard drive sectors are organized into clusters and only one file can occupy a cluster though a file may be in multiple clusters. Any space left over in the cluster is wasted. For example ntfs has 4kb clusters by default so a 1kb file takes up 4kb on the disk.

...You say that clusters cannot be shared by more than one different file, but a file will take up as many clusters as it needs to to occupy the hard drive space it requires...and sometimes clusters are just not completely used by the number of bytes in the file, and part of them is empty, but still counted against total hard drive space?

...I think I followed you?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: chrisw80 on February 23, 2017, 02:46:12 am
Grateful for you doing this, but the audio is off on real hardware, like the rips of yore...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on February 23, 2017, 05:23:59 am
Grateful for you doing this, but the audio is off on real hardware, like the rips of yore...

Ugh. Well, thanks for trying it, anyway. Guess I'm going to have to set up RetroArch and test this on GPGX, but if you don't mind risking a couple of coasters, you can try using these CUE sheets in the meantime:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/9u8aa1fa9b9g9at/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test4.cue (http://www.mediafire.com/file/9u8aa1fa9b9g9at/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test4.cue)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/rneko6xqi53kgv7/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test5.cue (http://www.mediafire.com/file/rneko6xqi53kgv7/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test5.cue)

These are my best guesses at a fix after poring over the CUE specifications. The CUE file currently included with the patch expects a physical pregap to be baked into the WAV files, which is not the case when a verified BIN is patched. Further muddying the issue, many emulators don't interpret the CUE correctly and will work fine despite this problem. I've added PREGAP commands to the CUE files above in the hope it'll sort everything out; for what little it's worth, these do work right in Fusion and Gens.

Meanwhile, I've fixed quite a lot of stuff I missed in Eternal Blue, and I'm currently doing a test run through the new revision. I'll post the updated patch once I'm done.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: GHANMI on February 23, 2017, 10:20:23 am
Just in case you're still interested in that Grandia font, here it is extracted from the RAM.
Dimensions 8x15, and it's misaligned this way in memory.
This is the US version. The PAL version font reused half-width katakana for accentuated characters.

Spoiler:
(http://i.imgur.com/iNKfsn8.png)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: chrisw80 on February 23, 2017, 04:55:06 pm
Ugh. Well, thanks for trying it, anyway. Guess I'm going to have to set up RetroArch and test this on GPGX, but if you don't mind risking a couple of coasters, you can try using these CUE sheets in the meantime:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/9u8aa1fa9b9g9at/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test4.cue (http://www.mediafire.com/file/9u8aa1fa9b9g9at/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test4.cue)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/rneko6xqi53kgv7/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test5.cue (http://www.mediafire.com/file/rneko6xqi53kgv7/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test5.cue)

These are my best guesses at a fix after poring over the CUE specifications. The CUE file currently included with the patch expects a physical pregap to be baked into the WAV files, which is not the case when a verified BIN is patched. Further muddying the issue, many emulators don't interpret the CUE correctly and will work fine despite this problem. I've added PREGAP commands to the CUE files above in the hope it'll sort everything out; for what little it's worth, these do work right in Fusion and Gens.

Meanwhile, I've fixed quite a lot of stuff I missed in Eternal Blue, and I'm currently doing a test run through the new revision. I'll post the updated patch once I'm done.

Awesome, I will give it a go. It is also an issue with Popful Mail and Vay.

February 23, 2017, 05:50:36 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Test 4 works perfectly. At least for the opening and bgm. Thanks
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Spooniest on February 23, 2017, 09:24:14 pm
Test 4 worked for me sound-wise, but now all the letters are back in caps lock. :| Um...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: chrisw80 on February 23, 2017, 09:27:26 pm
Test 4 worked for me sound-wise, but now all the letters are back in caps lock. :| Um...

Weird. Working as intended on my end.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Spooniest on February 23, 2017, 11:29:27 pm
Weird. Working as intended on my end.

I did something wrong...deleted some file I wasn't supposed to I'll wager
I've been kind of out of it lately :/
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Furluge on February 23, 2017, 11:45:43 pm
...You say that clusters cannot be shared by more than one different file, but a file will take up as many clusters as it needs to to occupy the hard drive space it requires...and sometimes clusters are just not completely used by the number of bytes in the file, and part of them is empty, but still counted against total hard drive space?

...I think I followed you?

Yeah that is it.  You can imagine your clusters like a box. You label the box with what is inside, so you only put one type of thing in each box.  Like if Ghaleon's Abba collection takes up five and a half boxes, you will use up six boxes because you that remaining one half a box remaining needs a place to go.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on February 24, 2017, 07:44:35 am
Before anything else, I've updated the Eternal Blue patch to version 3. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/jxrfes7cj10atfd/Lunar+Eternal+Blue+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v3.zip)

(http://i.imgur.com/dMCsmro.png) (http://i.imgur.com/UhH8TfL.png) (http://i.imgur.com/we2vHme.png)

I wound up making a lot more changes than I expected:
Spoiler:
* Swapped back the Heal Litany/Calm Litany spell icons
  * Removed remaining SoA-mandated graphics censorship:
  * Pentagrams (Magic Shield spell icon, large and small teleport pads, "magic circle" spell animations)
  * Plantella/Plantarium
  * Luna flashback
* Restored Althena statue donation amounts
* Restored the Larpa mayor's fee amount
* After much handwringing, I chose to remove the new Star Dragon Tower music and replace it with the recycled Blue Tower theme that was originally used there. Honestly, I love Bill King's music and I have nothing against the track itself, but it's a violation of authorial intent (lazy though that intent may have been) and I can't leave it in in good conscience.
* Ported the tweaked font I originally made for the The Silver Star patch to this game
* Fixed an issue that caused several dialogue choice boxes to display spurious "blank" options
* Finally found and converted to mixed case the text for the Ghaleon fight in Pentagulia Shrine
* Further revised the script, fixing a few text box overflows and grammatical issues, as well as adjusting capitalization here and there
* Due to a complaint, I've put the obnoxious Working Designs credits, which were previously removed as a side effect of my sloppy editing work, back in the opening cutscene.
* One JP->US change I've purposely left as-is in this version is the altered background for window type 2. The US version is much darker than any of the other backgrounds, and from an accessibility standpoint, it's better to offer a high-contrast option for those that might want or need it. I suspect 99% of players will never change from the default background anyways.

Hopefully, I've found everything and this will be the last major revision (but who knows?).

Just in case you're still interested in that Grandia font, here it is extracted from the RAM.
Dimensions 8x15, and it's misaligned this way in memory.
This is the US version. The PAL version font reused half-width katakana for accentuated characters.

Spoiler:
(http://i.imgur.com/iNKfsn8.png)

Heh, they really did just copy their Lunar font, Silver symbol and all. Thanks for digging this up, but looking at it compared to my own edited font, I do agree it seems a bit more awkward -- I'm no expert on fonts, but it seems like having only one row below the baseline pretty much guarantees letters like lower case "g" will look off. I hate throwing it out after you went to all the trouble, but unless anyone objects, I'd rather stick with my edited version here.

Awesome, I will give it a go. It is also an issue with Popful Mail and Vay.

February 23, 2017, 05:50:36 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Test 4 works perfectly. At least for the opening and bgm. Thanks

Okay, great! I'll fix the other games and get new versions of the patches up ASAP. Thanks a ton for testing on hardware, and let me know if you run into any more issues.

Test 4 worked for me sound-wise, but now all the letters are back in caps lock. :| Um...

I did something wrong...deleted some file I wasn't supposed to I'll wager
I've been kind of out of it lately :/

Well, changing the CUE sheet shouldn't be able to do that unless you renamed your original, unpatched ISO to "LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_01.iso". Maybe something like that happened accidentally? (The CUE has nothing to do with the patch content, it's basically just a list of files.)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: chrisw80 on February 24, 2017, 05:41:53 pm

Okay, great! I'll fix the other games and get new versions of the patches up ASAP. Thanks a ton for testing on hardware, and let me know if you run into any more issues.

Awesome, no problem with testing it on my end. Looking forward to the fixed cue sheets for Popful Mail and Vay. Plan to play through Popful Mail as soon as it is posted and I get it burned to disc. Thanks again!

February 24, 2017, 06:14:26 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Started a new game on Lunar 2 and the audio is way out of sync during the opening. Think the original US opening will do, but your call.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on February 24, 2017, 07:38:57 pm
Awesome, no problem with testing it on my end. Looking forward to the fixed cue sheets for Popful Mail and Vay. Plan to play through Popful Mail as soon as it is posted and I get it burned to disc. Thanks again!

February 24, 2017, 06:14:26 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Started a new game on Lunar 2 and the audio is way out of sync during the opening. Think the original US opening will do, but your call.

I'll put up the updated patch ZIPs later, but here are the other updated CUEs if you want to go ahead and try them:

Popful Mail (http://www.mediafire.com/file/93om59251taacqa/PopfulMailUnWorked.cue)
Vay (http://www.mediafire.com/file/z4cbbo3vxlvdnbx/VayUnWorked.cue)

If anyone cares about the PCECD patches, they appear to have correct CUEs already.

The issue with the Eternal Blue opening is more serious. That game doesn't use CD audio for anything except the ending credits, so it can't be a CUE issue, and everything syncs properly in Fusion. It sounds like this is some hardware quirk that older emulators aren't handling correctly, which means it'll probably be hard to fix.

I've made an alternate version of the patch that uses the US intro (http://www.mediafire.com/file/7ex2slihhgm41hn/Lunar+Eternal+Blue+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v3+%28with+US+intro%29.zip) that you can try. If that still doesn't work right, then we really have a problem.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: vivify93 on February 24, 2017, 10:05:59 pm
Lunar 2 v3 works well on GenesisPlusGX for Wii as well. So it might be an emulation issue. I wish I could help on the real hardware bit, but it should all be fine for emulator-users for the time being.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: chrisw80 on February 24, 2017, 10:16:45 pm
I'll put up the updated patch ZIPs later, but here are the other updated CUEs if you want to go ahead and try them:

Popful Mail (http://www.mediafire.com/file/93om59251taacqa/PopfulMailUnWorked.cue)
Vay (http://www.mediafire.com/file/z4cbbo3vxlvdnbx/VayUnWorked.cue)

If anyone cares about the PCECD patches, they appear to have correct CUEs already.

The issue with the Eternal Blue opening is more serious. That game doesn't use CD audio for anything except the ending credits, so it can't be a CUE issue, and everything syncs properly in Fusion. It sounds like this is some hardware quirk that older emulators aren't handling correctly, which means it'll probably be hard to fix.

I've made an alternate version of the patch that uses the US intro (http://www.mediafire.com/file/7ex2slihhgm41hn/Lunar+Eternal+Blue+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v3+%28with+US+intro%29.zip) that you can try. If that still doesn't work right, then we really have a problem.

The issue is still present with the US intro. The audio doesn't get as out of sync during the first part and the credits are perfect, but the last part goes way out of sync. I also tried it on a Model 1 Sega CD and a Model 2 Sega CD, just to make sure it wasn't a hardware issue. Can't believe the Model 1 is nearing 25 years old.

Popful Mail and Vay's audio is now working perfectly, thanks. I also have a PC Engine Duo-R and will test out Exile 1&2

February 24, 2017, 11:10:45 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Exile 1&2 Un-Worked, working as intended. Audio and all.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on February 25, 2017, 12:22:36 am
Per the above discussion, I've updated the Lunar TSS, Popful Mail, and Vay patches to fix the CD audio sync issues. (Eternal Blue was already fine in that respect.) Get them here:

Lunar: The Silver Star v1 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/q1dodzukzxe6rdi/Lunar+The+Silver+Star+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip)
Popful Mail v3 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/gwak1aw2kgi108g/Popful+Mail+Un-Worked+Design+v3.zip)
Vay v1 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/uzn3hfu2fxz4s9v/Vay+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip)

The issue is still present with the US intro. The audio doesn't get as out of sync during the first part and the credits are perfect, but the last part goes way out of sync. I also tried it on a Model 1 Sega CD and a Model 2 Sega CD, just to make sure it wasn't a hardware issue. Can't believe the Model 1 is nearing 25 years old.

Popful Mail and Vay's audio is now working perfectly, thanks. I also have a PC Engine Duo-R and will test out Exile 1&2

February 24, 2017, 11:10:45 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Exile 1&2 Un-Worked, working as intended. Audio and all.

For the Exile games: Whew, glad something's gone right in all this.

With regard to the Eternal Blue syncing issues, the possibility that comes to my mind is that the cutscene progression could have been hardcoded against the expected disc seek times. I know that in some cases, such as Popful Mail, the ISO filesystem was optimized to put the most common files at the start of the disc where they could be reached faster. Since these patches rebuild the filesystem, and I haven't taken care to try to preserve the exact structure, it's plausible that the seek times changed significantly, which might not have an effect on emulators but would obviously affect real hardware. This would explain why the synchronization varies as the game goes through the different cutscene files.

If you don't mind burning one more CD, could you try seeing what this patch does on real hardware? (http://www.mediafire.com/file/7lxd3l3xqmi8l40/Lunar+Eternal+Blue+Filesystem+Rebuild+Test.zip) This is just the vanilla US Eternal Blue rebuilt into a new ISO without any changes, then converted to a patch. If the audio is still out of sync in the intro, that would strongly support my theory. Otherwise, I guess it's back to the drawing board.

Regardless of that, I should look into setting up the filesystems to more closely match the originals. If nothing else, it'll help load times in some games.

Thanks a whole bunch for testing all these -- it really help me out!
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: chrisw80 on February 25, 2017, 12:58:34 am
Yep, still out of sync. I am grateful for these patches though, nonetheless. I have been looking to replay these games, and these make for the perfect opportunity to do so. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: vivify93 on February 25, 2017, 02:01:38 am
Thanks so much for these patches, Supper. I, more than anyone, appreciate proper caps in games. :beer: And now I finally have it in the Lunar duo.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on February 25, 2017, 04:10:28 am
Yep, still out of sync. I am grateful for these patches though, nonetheless. I have been looking to replay these games, and these make for the perfect opportunity to do so. Thanks again.

Okay, good, that gives me something to go on. I'll see if I can get this fixed soon. Thanks again for helping me out, and hope you enjoy the games!

Thanks so much for these patches, Supper. I, more than anyone, appreciate proper caps in games. :beer: And now I finally have it in the Lunar duo.

Hah, you're welcome. The all caps text really bothered me in these games in particular, perhaps just because it's so rare to see it with an 8x16 font. I'm baffled why WD didn't just ask Game Arts to improve the font, since they were certainly able to get a bajillion other changes implemented.

Meanwhile, I've somehow found myself playing Magic Knight Rayearth for the last few hours. Well, less "playing" and more "listening to", because this game sure loves to talk... (Haven't forgotten about the international Alundra versions, I'll get to those shortly.)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Kallisto on February 25, 2017, 06:49:20 pm
When it comes to Lunar... I know a lot of people prefer TSS over SSSC, but I admittedly know I'd personally really love to see the Complete versions get proper treatment too. I quite like the Sega CD games, but they aren't the ones that got me into the series originally.

I made a suggestion back on the ideas board to restore some of the content back into Lunar 1 PSX version as some of the content can THEORETICALLY be put back in. I noticed that some of the monsters only appeared in the SEGA CD version, but were cut out of the PSX version. I do believe there may be a way to restore them if someone knows how to do it, but this would mean giving these monsters extra frames, and cleaned up sprite graphics to match with the PSX graphics. Also I did notice there was some lesser locations that only appeared in the SEGA CD version as well like the Goddess shrine & Healing Obelisk near the first town of the game, and I think they can be restored too as it would not interfere too much with the game. As for World Map encounters, I'm not sure if that can be redone as I would think that would require some heavy hacking unless someone were to create invisible enemy sprites that you can bump into on the world map, and the world map seems to function the same way as a town or dungeon map. Another possibility would be transferring the PSP ost to replace the PSX ost, I always thought the PSX ost to be pretty weak compared to Lunar 2.


Alas this would all require some heavy hacking though.



Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Recapnation on February 26, 2017, 04:03:24 pm
Meanwhile, I've somehow found myself playing Magic Knight Rayearth for the last few hours. Well, less "playing" and more "listening to", because this game sure loves to talk...

Maybe you find this quote interesting:

Quote from: Tim Trzepacz, WD
I did an awful lot of work on Rayearth over the course of 2 years, including writing software to generate lip flap movements from recorded audio dialog, a map editor to remove extra sprites that caused slowdown, tools to replace audio in the Cinepak movies without recompressing the video (they lost the source video...), and to replace the logo video in the middle with the English language logo, command line tools to generate bitmaps of text place names, to squash them to fit in the allowed number of pixels, and then convert to 16 colors and insert back in the binary, and many, many other things. I think it was one of the best games Sega made for the Saturn, and I suspect that if I didn't keep pushing it, Victor would have dropped it.

Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: vivify93 on February 27, 2017, 03:31:24 am
Found a spillover issue with Lunar 1. I can't provide a screenshot, but I can provide text.

"Gosh, if you become like
Dyne, I'll want to marry you!
Dragonmasters are so hot!"

The exclamation mark of "you!" spills out of the text box. Maybe change "want to" to "wanna"? I'll report more as I come across them. :)

Also, the loading screen uses the old font, albeit in proper case. Lastly, I'm not sure if the question mark and exclamation mark were moved up to the same baseline as the period, comma, and other letters, but that's less of an issue.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on February 28, 2017, 06:08:11 am
Maybe you find this quote interesting:

I'd say he has good taste, although I'm not sure the same can be said of his business sense. A licensed anime game, on the Sega Saturn, in late 1998, after two years of work? There's no way they made any money on that.

Though that reminds me, I came across that guy's resume (https://www.rhythmcorealpha.com/homepages/TimTrzepacz/Resume/TimTrzepaczWorkingDesignsExperience.php) a long time ago (apparently his server isn't set up right -- that link gives me an insecure connection warning). Honestly, if he'd been employed by a company that wasn't named Working Designs, I'd envy him. I'm sure it was a ton of work, but the stuff he was doing sounds like the kind of thing I'd be able to enjoy...minus the part where you're wrecking someone else's work.

Found a spillover issue with Lunar 1. I can't provide a screenshot, but I can provide text.

"Gosh, if you become like
Dyne, I'll want to marry you!
Dragonmasters are so hot!"

The exclamation mark of "you!" spills out of the text box. Maybe change "want to" to "wanna"? I'll report more as I come across them. :)

Also, the loading screen uses the old font, albeit in proper case. Lastly, I'm not sure if the question mark and exclamation mark were moved up to the same baseline as the period, comma, and other letters, but that's less of an issue.

Thanks, I'll fix that in a bit. I really should have just added automatic overflow detection to my script inserter by now...And wow, can't believe I missed the loading screen font. EB uses a common font for everything, but TSS manages to duplicate the font a ridiculous number of times for every conceivable purpose (the balloon flight, the loading screen, each and every cutscene's subtitles...)

As far as the punctuation goes, I can see where you're coming from. I think the root problem is that the star-shaped pattern used for the dot fits into a 3x3 square instead of a 2x2 one like the period, which makes it appear slightly off no matter what. Right now, the bottom row of the exclamation point's dot extends a pixel below the bottom of the period, but if I move it up a pixel, it instead extends one dot above (and looks too high to me). Here's my earlier comparison post, since it's gotten rather buried by now. (http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,23436.msg330123.html#msg330123)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: vivify93 on February 28, 2017, 09:06:49 am
Ohh, I see. I understand now, thanks! :)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: thainferno305 on March 02, 2017, 11:11:19 pm
i hate to complain but the lunar silver star and lunar eternal blue arent working pls fix these errors i was enjoying your update on your last patch keep up the good work
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Midna on March 03, 2017, 07:17:08 am
What specific problems are you having with the patch? I hate to come off as pushy, but how the hell  do you expect us to be able to help you if you don't even tell us what's going on?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: thainferno305 on March 03, 2017, 10:02:30 am
Moderator Note: The content of this post was erased because you repeated yourself. Edit this post and put in the actual errors you got or a screenshot of them.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on March 04, 2017, 01:36:52 am
I finally updated the Alundra patch to add support for the non-English editions. Get the new version here. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/4i2qevad5626dyx/Alundra+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip) I don't have a dump of the French version, so only Italian, German, and Spanish are supported for now. Sorry for taking so long to get it done.

As a little status update, I've actually put off working on MKR for a bit in order to program a tool that should make it significantly easier to make these patches in the future. I've got the basic features implemented and it seems to be working pretty well, so I should be back to more direct hacking work soon enough. I'll probably make a separate topic for it once it's more developed, since it's possibly of use to others.

i hate to complain but the lunar silver star and lunar eternal blue arent working pls fix these errors i was enjoying your update on your last patch keep up the good work

It's fine, but yeah, it kind of helps if I have something to go off of. Make sure if you have an ISO, you're using it on isopatch.bat, and if you have a BIN, you're using it on binpatch.bat. You can also try the manual patching method from the readme to try to see what's going wrong.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: thainferno305 on March 04, 2017, 03:30:12 am
when i was patching both lunar 1 and 2 with ppfv3 then i used the epsxe emulator it says error recompile block to large
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on March 04, 2017, 12:45:54 pm
when i was patching both lunar 1 and 2 with ppfv3 then i used the epsxe emulator it says error recompile block to large

These patches are for the Sega CD versions of the Lunar games, not the PlayStation remakes. Sorry. I'll probably do patches for the other versions sooner or later, though.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: thainferno305 on March 04, 2017, 01:58:11 pm
I did patch the sega cd versions with the ppfv3 I didn't know I used the wrong patching utility
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on March 04, 2017, 09:45:55 pm
I did patch the sega cd versions with the ppfv3 I didn't know I used the wrong patching utility

Last time I checked, ePSXe was a PlayStation emulator...?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Spooniest on March 04, 2017, 10:54:51 pm
Last time I checked, ePSXe was a PlayStation emulator...?

He's trying to say he's using ppf-o-matic or some such to patch a Sega Cd game.

You aren't supposed to need a patching utility to install this. You use the included ".bat" file (a 'batch' file format file), which you just drag your .bin file onto. Easy peasy. It spits out the new version at you...I think is how it works?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: lexluthermiester on March 05, 2017, 02:46:13 am
Last time I checked, ePSXe was a PlayStation emulator...?
Yet, well known one. And it doesn't play games from any other system, including SegaCD.

I did patch the sega cd versions with the ppfv3 I didn't know I used the wrong patching utility

It's the emulator. Use Fusion or Gens and you might just have a chance of getting the game to work right.. Just throwing it out there.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: vivify93 on March 05, 2017, 04:28:51 pm
Hey, Supper, the line about Lucia calling off the enemies in the Blue Spire is used. It's if you try to grind past level 7 in the Blue Spire. https://lparchive.org/Lunar-Eternal-Blue/Update%2004/ Check it out there.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on March 05, 2017, 06:11:50 pm
Hey, Supper, the line about Lucia calling off the enemies in the Blue Spire is used. It's if you try to grind past level 7 in the Blue Spire. https://lparchive.org/Lunar-Eternal-Blue/Update%2004/ Check it out there.

Holy hell, why would they even bother? Wow. That's obscure enough that it might be worth mentioning on TCRF anyway, so I'll just add a note to the page for now. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: lexluthermiester on March 05, 2017, 09:14:32 pm
Supper, Thank You for the patches! Very cool of you!
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: thainferno305 on March 06, 2017, 02:31:20 pm
i did what u told me i put the lunar 2 into the iso patch and i use fusion then i saw the main menu of lunar eternal blue as soon as i hit start i got a black screen  so just to make sure i wanted to try again so i wont get the black screen again i used the genesis sega cd emulator only this time it went up to the cut scenes of the beginning of the game then when the cut scene was over i got a black screen again can u pls send me your version 2 patch pls im dying to play lunar 2 Thainferno305@yahoo.com keep up the good work i hope u can fix your version 3 patch
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on March 09, 2017, 06:22:43 am
Supper, Thank You for the patches! Very cool of you!

You're welcome. Hopefully I'll have more coming soon -- I've finally gotten back to work on Rayearth, though I still haven't quite finished playing through the Japanese version. We'll see what kind of headaches the US one gives me.

i did what u told me i put the lunar 2 into the iso patch and i use fusion then i saw the main menu of lunar eternal blue as soon as i hit start i got a black screen  so just to make sure i wanted to try again so i wont get the black screen again i used the genesis sega cd emulator only this time it went up to the cut scenes of the beginning of the game then when the cut scene was over i got a black screen again can u pls send me your version 2 patch pls im dying to play lunar 2 Thainferno305@yahoo.com keep up the good work i hope u can fix your version 3 patch

While it's certainly possible there's a problem with your disc image, if the game gets as far as the title menu, it's more likely something's wrong with the emulator configuration. The game will always freeze during the opening cutscene in Gens (AFAIK), so don't bother using that. Make sure you have the latest version of Fusion (3.64), and try running the original, unpatched game to see if it works correctly.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: SC on March 09, 2017, 06:35:12 am
Thanks for the Alundra patch, I'll be trying it soon! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: varikares on March 11, 2017, 12:45:25 pm
I remember giving up on popful mail due to being frustrated at a certain boss that could kill you in only 2 or 3 hits

I'm definitely going to give it another try after this
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Rayearth)
Post by: Supper on March 19, 2017, 01:08:02 am
Glad to see the site's back up. Looks like this topic lost a few posts in the outage, but I don't think there was anything too important (if there was, please post it again!). Anyway, Rayearth's been ready to go for several days now:

Magic Knight Rayearth -- patch v0
(http://i.imgur.com/EwmBI9v.png) (http://i.imgur.com/IWE4HX5.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/uig48pybltb43wb/Magic+Knight+Rayearth+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through several times. Everything should be fine.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All enemies and their attacks do the damage they did in the Japanese version.
* Enemy speeds have been reduced to their original levels.

This game had a lot of particularly nasty and insidious changes. Aside from doing 2x-5x more damage, nearly every enemy and projectile in the game moves faster in the US version, and fixing that mostly involved restoring constants that were directly embedded in the code instead of being in neat little tables like in some games. I managed to automate the bulk of the work, but I still had to find and fix quite a few things manually, so it's possible I missed something despite repeated verification playthroughs. At the very least, this fixes the vast majority of the issues, and I'm hopeful that I managed to find everything.

Also, this is my first Saturn hack, so I have no idea if this will work on modded consoles or even emulators other than the one I tested on (Yabause). As always, let me know if anything goes wrong.

I've started looking at Cosmic Fantasy 2. So far, my conclusion is that this game basically sucks even without Working Designs' help, and is best played with random encounters disabled and your stats hacked to absurdity. The story and cutscenes are all right, but everything else...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Rayearth)
Post by: RetroHelix on March 19, 2017, 05:36:30 am
I really like this project.  :thumbsup:
Looks like Working Designs released quite a lot of games so you still have work to do :D Keep it up.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Rayearth)
Post by: dominater01 on March 20, 2017, 05:04:40 am
thanks so much for the patch for popful mail i tried playing the original and it kicked my ace i almost gave up until i came across this patch you made, now its like one of my favorite games  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Rayearth)
Post by: Panzer88 on March 21, 2017, 02:21:46 pm
Thanks so much! I'm impressed by the number of games you've covered already, fantastic stuff.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Supper on March 22, 2017, 01:15:03 am
Here's Cosmic Fantasy 2.

Cosmic Fantasy 2 (PC Engine CD/TurboGrafx-CD) -- patch v0 (3/21/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/nwe5507.png) (http://i.imgur.com/3mo7rK7.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/1lcl66cbvy4d7o8/Cosmic+Fantasy+2+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through, albeit very rapidly and with a lot of cheats turned on...
Changes:
Spoiler:
* Enemy stats are restored to what they were in the Japanese game. The only changes in the US version were to the first and last few bosses of the game (though some of their stats absolutely skyrocketed).
* Beating the first boss awards 20 EXP in the US version; it now gives nothing, per the original game.
* Rim (Babette)'s obscene gesture in her introductory cutscene has been restored.

Turned out not much was changed in this game. I hit up all the usual suspects (enemy stats, MP costs, item prices) but the only significant changes I found were to the first and last few bosses, plus the cutscene with Rim flipping the bird.

On a side note, I think there are two revisions of the English edition of the game. There doesn't seem to be much concrete information due to the game's obscurity, but basically, the US version doesn't translate the Japanese version's "This treasure chest is empty" message. However, there's a chest that's empty in the Japanese version, and a guide on GameFAQs mentions that that chest displays a single kanji when opened in the US version (which I've verified is what happens when any empty chest is opened in the US version). Yet the version of the game I used to make this patch instead places Bingleberries in that chest.

tl;dr If the patch doesn't work, you may have an older version of the game than what I used to make the patch. If you do, please get in touch with me.

I'm now playing Lunar: The Silver Star Story (expect this to take a while). I didn't realize it was basically a completely different game. Why the hell didn't Luna get on the boat in the first place?

I really like this project.  :thumbsup:
Looks like Working Designs released quite a lot of games so you still have work to do :D Keep it up.

Haha, I'm not expecting to get through all of them, but I haven't run out of interest yet. Thanks for the support.

thanks so much for the patch for popful mail i tried playing the original and it kicked my ace i almost gave up until i came across this patch you made, now its like one of my favorite games  :thumbsup:

Well, that's the kind of success story I like to hear! Glad you enjoyed it, weird little game that it is. I should play one of the original home computer versions for kicks sometime...

Thanks so much! I'm impressed by the number of games you've covered already, fantastic stuff.

You're welcome -- I wasn't expecting to get this much done myself, because checking these thoroughly for changes takes quite a bit of work. I'll keep it up as long as time (and my patience) permits.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Recapnation on March 22, 2017, 09:23:42 am
Congratulations once again, particularly for Magic Knight Rayearth as the first SS game to get the treatment. Is your patch compatible with the "undubbed version" patch which seems to exist out there?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: KingMike on March 22, 2017, 12:33:34 pm
If I remember, WD even pointed out THE FINGER in the behind-the-scenes video included with Silver Star Story Complete. :D
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Supper on March 23, 2017, 05:56:22 am
Congratulations once again, particularly for Magic Knight Rayearth as the first SS game to get the treatment. Is your patch compatible with the "undubbed version" patch which seems to exist out there?

Thanks. Unfortunately, no, there's basically no chance that'll work. I've made undubbed versions of some of these for my own use, but obviously that's not something I can distribute as a patch.

While I haven't tried this, I expect that all you need to do to undub Rayearth is copy over all the .ADP files from the Japanese version to the US version. Assuming you have the tools to unpack and rebuild the ISO, it would be very simple to patch the US version and then do that on top of it, but it's probably still more technical trouble than most people will want to go to...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Kallisto on March 23, 2017, 06:37:54 am
I wonder if will ever see the rest of the Cosmic Fantasy series in english? It seems kind of pointless just playing part II, and will never know the rest of the story.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: GHANMI on March 23, 2017, 12:30:43 pm
Supper, you mentioned rebuilding tools for ISOs, is it ImgBurn or regular CD burning stuff by any chance if you want to replace stuff? Wouldn't CD sectors pose some problem especially for audio?

I wonder if will ever see the rest of the Cosmic Fantasy series in english? It seems kind of pointless just playing part II, and will never know the rest of the story.

Cosmic Fantasy series is on the PC Engine as 5 releases (the last two are one big game), and the first two have been remastered on the Sega CD (again, just in Japan). It apparently has lots of audio-only stuff (but mednafen has soft subs so that could be taken care of?) and the gameplay is very archaic and could use an easy type hack to make it easier and more streamlined (not harder like WD tried with CF2), after all story is its one most important aspect. It's designed by a mangaka so a scanlation translator would be a godsend for this project - otherwise it will just linger alongside all the other visual novel and licensed anime stuff.

The American cover art for Cosmic Fantasy 2 is so horrible by the way. Few stuff makes me cringe that badly aside from the pseudo-anime art style in Turrican games.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d1/Cosmic_Fantasy_2_Cover.jpg)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Supper on March 23, 2017, 01:55:22 pm
Supper, you mentioned rebuilding tools for ISOs, is it ImgBurn or regular CD burning stuff by any chance if you want to replace stuff? Wouldn't CD sectors pose some problem especially for audio?

For all patches that have a rebuilt filesystem, I used the Linux utility xorrisofs (equivalent to mkisofs, if that's more easily available). For Rayearth specifically, the game wouldn't run unless I added the --norock parameter to disable Rockridge extensions. I also use -iso-level 1, although I don't think it's necessary. Rayearth happens not to use CD audio or low-level disc accesses -- at least I assume so, since the rebuilt ISO runs fine -- so that's not a problem in this case.

Also, I haven't looked at the existing undub, but you could probably also just copy over the code files from my patch (which are "0" and all of the "OLXX.BIN" files in the root directory) to that one.

Regarding Cosmic Fantasy 2, it's just a very strange situation overall. Working Designs apparently liked the second game in the series more and decided they'd publish it instead of the first one. It's quite odd that they kept the "2" in the title -- I assume they intended to bring over the first game later, but sales wound being too poor to justify it. And considering it was one of Working Designs' first projects, I can cut them a little slack for scrimping on the box art budget. (Though it certainly is bad -- did someone actually get paid for that? On a similar note, see this bizarre promotional diorama they had made for Exile II (http://www.gamingmagz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Exile-Wicked-Phenomenon.jpg).)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: GHANMI on March 23, 2017, 03:36:13 pm
Oh, to be fair, bad US cover arts were commonplace in the nineties. And they're not without their B-movie charm.  :laugh:

Spoiler:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8a/bc/6f/8abc6fbdb62353e94be1191ed3e43d8c.jpg)
(http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/ys/ys3covergenesis.jpg)
(http://image.jeuxvideo.com/images/ps/b/o/bof3ps0f.jpg)

Speaking of undubs, having the translations for Silhouette Mirage, Grandia and both Lunar games ported to their superior Sega Saturn ports would be nice too. I tried with Grandia but the font being compressed in the disc (and probably not including the ASCII set) put a swift end to whatever plans I might have had.

It's also interesting how games from back then used standard Mac computer fonts, like Chicago, but the Lunar PSX games used Times New Roman. If you figure out how to change the font, please share any info you can find out, as well as your hacking notes so far (which must be a real treasure trove for anyone wanting to prepare balance mods for these games).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: darthvaderx on March 24, 2017, 11:51:56 am
About Arc the Lad 1 :

1) Portraits are better in the japanese version , WD changed them to look more like Arc the Lad II:

USA:

(https://lparchive.org/Arc-the-Lad/Update%2012/stats.gif)

Japan:

(http://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/U/Uuu/20090418/20090418175106.jpg)


2) WD also removed some speeches (when the characters are moving in battle without doing any other action) that were in the Japanese version ...

Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: SCD on March 24, 2017, 12:26:27 pm
I never knew that Working Designs messed up Arc the Lad like that.

Another PSX Working Designs game that needs to be fixed up is Silhouette Mirage, here's all the stuff they changed: https://tcrf.net/Silhouette_Mirage_(PlayStation)

Here's two screenshots from the Japanese version to help you:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dhj_CyfGsZI/VYqhXivtRLI/AAAAAAAAIN8/hEGrWLagjn0/s1600/DSC_0035.JPG)

There supposed to be religious references.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cyzOYgPTLzQ/VYqhYSx9lnI/AAAAAAAAIOE/sqhWosGHxJg/s1600/DSC_0036.JPG)

The rabbit merchant is supposed to smoke.

I wonder what changes they did to the PSX Lunar games that need to fix?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: KingMike on March 24, 2017, 12:59:28 pm
I'd at least cut them a little slack if stuff was omitted from Arc due to Sony (likely) making them bundle the games than sell them individually. That probably had an effect on their budget. (like Growlanser 2+3 for PS2)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Recapnation on March 24, 2017, 02:22:42 pm
The problem with "un-working" stuff such as Silhouette Mirage, the 32-bits Lunars or Grandia (not WD, this one, but still) is that it would be a [monumental] wasted effort for many people since the PS versions are way worse than the original SS versions. In this day an age, nobody wants to play downgraded versions --  most fans are well aware of the subject, and will most likely ignore any patch for the PS versions. In other words, many want to believe that masterpieces such as Grandia or Shiru-Mira deserve a translation patch for their original versions, and that it will come sooner or later, given that the SS is a system still young in the hacking communities which just hasn't been looked into too much yet. In the very case of Grandia, finding anybody tolerating the dubbed version these days would be weird, if you ask me (though I believe there's an undubbed version patch for this too).

Too bad, hearing that Supper's patches aren't compatible with undubbed versions patches, by the way, though that's what I expected. Thanks for letting us know there's a way for doing it yourself -- it's anything but quick or easy, though. Hopefully your MKR patch gets popular enough so that well... it happens what it usually happens when something's popular enough in the internets (...).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Supper on March 24, 2017, 08:42:44 pm
Oh, to be fair, bad US cover arts were commonplace in the nineties. And they're not without their B-movie charm.  :laugh:

Spoiler:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8a/bc/6f/8abc6fbdb62353e94be1191ed3e43d8c.jpg)
(http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/ys/ys3covergenesis.jpg)
(http://image.jeuxvideo.com/images/ps/b/o/bof3ps0f.jpg)

Speaking of undubs, having the translations for Silhouette Mirage, Grandia and both Lunar games ported to their superior Sega Saturn ports would be nice too. I tried with Grandia but the font being compressed in the disc (and probably not including the ASCII set) put a swift end to whatever plans I might have had.

It's also interesting how games from back then used standard Mac computer fonts, like Chicago, but the Lunar PSX games used Times New Roman. If you figure out how to change the font, please share any info you can find out, as well as your hacking notes so far (which must be a real treasure trove for anyone wanting to prepare balance mods for these games).

Porting over the translation would obviously be a bigger project, and I'm reluctant to give the mangled English script any more exposure than it already has, but I might at least see how much effort would be required. For the original Eternal Blue, Game Arts was clearly anticipating the possibility of a western release and included the English font even in the Japanese version, so a similar situation might have occurred with the remakes.

My notes are quite crap, to be honest, but I'll try to sort something out -- I might just throw those and my utilities up on Github and worry about proper formatting later. As bad as I am at it, I think it's important to document these things properly, which is why I've been taking the time to put together full explanations on TCRF of the changes I've found.

About Arc the Lad 1 :

1) Portraits are better in the japanese version , WD changed them to look more like Arc the Lad II:

USA:

Japan:

2) WD also removed some speeches (when the characters are moving in battle without doing any other action) that were in the Japanese version ...

Thanks for the heads-up. Assuming I get around to the game, I'll probably change the portraits back, but if the dialogue wasn't dubbed then there's not a lot of point sticking the Japanese back in. (A similar situation occurred in Rayearth -- almost all of the dialogue was originally voiced, but the US version cut out all but a tiny fraction of it to save dubbing costs. Most of the Japanese voice acting was left on the disc, actually.)

I never knew that Working Designs messed up Arc the Lad like that.

Another PSX Working Designs game that needs to be fixed up is Silhouette Mirage, here's all the stuff they changed: https://tcrf.net/Silhouette_Mirage_(PlayStation)

Here's two screenshots from the Japanese version to help you:

There supposed to be religious references.

The rabbit merchant is supposed to smoke.

I wonder what changes they did to the PSX Lunar games that need to fix?

Yeah, Silhouette Mirage's changes are pretty well publicized, unlike with a lot of these games where I seem to be the first person to have bothered looking into the issue. I have a feeling trying to fix it will be a pretty involved project (and given the nature of the game, I do wonder if it's worth the effort over just playing the Japanese version), but we'll cross that bridge when/if we come to it.

I haven't gotten to the JP-US comparison phase on the Lunar remakes yet, but I expect similar changes to the originals -- perhaps something more involved for The Silver Star, since the original game was an early WD conversion that wasn't changed much.

The problem with "un-working" stuff such as Silhouette Mirage, the 32-bits Lunars or Grandia (not WD, this one, but still) is that it would be a [monumental] wasted effort for many people since the PS versions are way worse than the original SS versions. In this day an age, nobody wants to play downgraded versions --  most fans are well aware of the subject, and will most likely ignore any patch for the PS versions. In other words, many want to believe that masterpieces such as Grandia or Shiru-Mira deserve a translation patch for their original versions, and that it will come sooner or later, given that the SS is a system still young in the hacking communities which just hasn't been looked into too much yet. In the very case of Grandia, finding anybody tolerating the dubbed version these days would be weird, if you ask me (though I believe there's an undubbed version patch for this too).

Too bad, hearing that Supper's patches aren't compatible with undubbed versions patches, by the way, though that's what I expected. Thanks for letting us know there's a way for doing it yourself -- it's anything but quick or easy, though. Hopefully your MKR patch gets popular enough so that well... it happens what it usually happens when something's popular enough in the internets (...).

Yeah, that's certainly something to consider. While they may be based on imperfect ports, I think fixing the existing English versions is "good enough" for now -- I expect dedicated fans can play the Japanese versions without too much trouble anyway -- but I certainly hope that someone will be eventually be willing to give these games a proper translation instead of the awful Working Designs rewrites. If anyone is, I'm happy to lend a hand with the hacking -- I haven't had the chance to work on a real translation project before, so it'd be interesting.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Midna on March 24, 2017, 09:37:03 pm
A more faithful retranslation of some of the games Working Designs messed with would be neat, but it seems like a lot of them had voice acting, so either you'd have to rig up a subtitle script or find amateur English voice actors (who don't suck) to fill the parts, and either way that would be a lot of effort. I'm not saying it's impossible, though.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: KingMike on March 25, 2017, 01:19:30 pm
For the original Eternal Blue, Game Arts was clearly anticipating the possibility of a western release and included the English font even in the Japanese version, so a similar situation might have occurred with the remakes.

I wonder about the Saturn version. WD had announced the Saturn Lunar games I think, presumably before US consoles sales got too bad even for them (and I'll guess MKR got released since it sounds like they had already been pretty invested in it).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: GHANMI on March 25, 2017, 05:13:48 pm
I wonder about the Saturn version. WD had announced the Saturn Lunar games I think, presumably before US consoles sales got too bad even for them (and I'll guess MKR got released since it sounds like they had already been pretty invested in it).

For what it's worth, Sega of America was supposedly working on their own Grandia localisation before cancelling it in 1998 or so. As always, it was a mismanaged mess under Bernie, who already went in one E3 and discouraged WD and any other publishers openly from bringing these RPGs.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: SCD on March 26, 2017, 01:47:54 am
Including it was Bernie Stolar's fault that the Sega Saturn tanked real hard in America.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Panzer88 on March 28, 2017, 01:36:40 am
I know they didn't release the Saturn versions, but since you seemed able to do magic knight ray earth, any chance you could insert the English text of Grandia and silhouette mirage into the Saturn versions? I'd be eternally grateful.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Ishkabibble on March 28, 2017, 10:54:41 am
A more faithful translation of some of the games Working Designs messed with would be neat, but it seems like a lot of them had voice acting, so either you'd have to rig up a subtitle script or find amateur English voice actors (who don't suck) to fill the parts, and either way that would be a lot of effort. I'm not saying it's impossible, though.

If these were ever given a fan treatment to be more faithful (which I would support 100%), I think the "undub" route would be fore the best, subbing audio-only cutscenes instead.  It'll making them more distinct from the official English releases.  Also, fan-dubs themselves are about 99% terrible anyway--I'd prefer resorting to a .txt script file or keeping the WD efforts to that.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Midna on March 28, 2017, 11:45:46 am
I don't know, I've heard some pretty good fandubs before. Quite a few that were better than WD's efforts at least.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Ishkabibble on March 28, 2017, 12:14:08 pm
I don't know, I've heard some pretty good fandubs before. Quite a few that were better than WD's efforts at least.

Perhaps, but I don't think a project like this one, which appears to be a one man show (and a very good one at that), is going to attract much talent.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Supper on March 30, 2017, 07:50:55 pm
Here are a few updates, in no particular order:

As I mentioned I intended to do, I've put my game-specific tools on Github (https://github.com/suppertails66/wdtools). The code is appallingly poor (these were written to perform specific tasks exactly once), but it might be better than nothing. I've also included my unfiltered hacking notes, which are in a similar state of dysfunction. I'll try to keep this updated.

I've also uploaded cmpdism (https://github.com/suppertails66/cmpdism), a comparative disassembler/binary differ for several architectures that I wrote to help find changes in these games. It's pretty esoteric, but I may start a separate thread for it, since it has somewhat broader applications.

I've almost finished Silver Star Story JP (I think the game wants me to grind a couple more levels for the final boss, but I'll probably just cheat through it and call it a day). I'll be starting on the actual hacking soon.

I made a comparison video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge_mRCZpJqg) showing the changes to enemies between the Japanese and US versions of Magic Knight Rayearth, which might interest a few.

Finally, I found out -- via one of Vic's old Usenet posts (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.video.sega/6LH-vig4BRI/CNK1pOQnlfQJ), of all things -- that bikinis were added to the Harpy enemies in the US version of Vay, so I guess I'll have to go back and figure out how to undo that.

I know they didn't release the Saturn versions, but since you seemed able to do magic knight ray earth, any chance you could insert the English text of Grandia and silhouette mirage into the Saturn versions? I'd be eternally grateful.

Like I said, it would probably be an involved project. My  distaste for the Working Designs scripts limits my willingness to go to any great lengths for them, but if it miraculously turned out to be easier than just undoing the difficulty changes, I might give it a go.

Perhaps, but I don't think a project like this one, which appears to be a one man show (and a very good one at that), is going to attract much talent.

Well, we're going out onto quite a hypothetical limb here for a retranslation project that doesn't actually exist, but I'd generally agree that subbing is preferable to dubbing in this context for a number of reasons. Subtitles are obviously more difficult technically, but dubbing introduces a whole host of organizational issues that are just as bad if not worse.

And thank you! I'm doing the best I can on these, and I hope people are getting some use out of them. It's really been quite a trip so far.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Special T on April 01, 2017, 08:00:44 am
I was about to report a bug in popful mail until I checked a guide and realized "Elixyr" was spelled that way in the original game. I wonder why they didn't spell it normally i.e. "Elixir"
Title: Re: Worked Designs: Working Designs PLUS bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on April 01, 2017, 06:12:24 pm
You'll all be pleased to hear that I've finally seen the light! Today I had the sudden revelation that Working Designs did nothing but good to the games they published, and are truly the unsung heroes of the '90s gaming industry. Indeed, their only failing was that they didn't go far enough. Therefore, I'm dropping the Un-Worked Design project in favor of a new one:

Lunar: The Silver Star (Sega CD) -- Worked Design patch v0 (4/1/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/qZlwGVX.png) (http://i.imgur.com/34mLlqJ.png) (http://i.imgur.com/9Sz4H6N.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/s6waj8g8rzxej7f/Lunar+The+Silver+Star+SCD+Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Not tested at all, because pssssht who does that?
Changes:
Spoiler:
* Saving the game now costs Silver (100s times Alex's level). This was by far the best change in the US version of Eternal Blue, and I know everyone will be euphoric to have this same experience in The Silver Star!
* Trying to load checkpoints will now reset the game. While this might appear to be a bug, if you think about it, it's really just a logical extension of the improvements to the save system!
* All enemies have their stats raised substantially.
* All items now cost much more.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the world of Worked Designs. Look forward to future entries in this series!
Title: Re: Worked Designs: Working Designs PLUS bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Piotyr on April 01, 2017, 08:33:06 pm
You'll all be pleased to hear that I've finally seen the light! Today I had the sudden revelation that Working Designs did nothing but good to the games they published, and are truly the unsung heroes of the '90s gaming industry. Indeed, their only failing was that they didn't go far enough. Therefore, I'm dropping the Un-Worked Design project in favor of a new one:

Lunar: The Silver Star (Sega CD) -- Worked Design patch v0 (4/1/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/qZlwGVX.png) (http://i.imgur.com/34mLlqJ.png) (http://i.imgur.com/9Sz4H6N.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/s6waj8g8rzxej7f/Lunar+The+Silver+Star+SCD+Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Not tested at all, because pssssht who does that?
Changes:
Spoiler:
* Saving the game now costs Silver (100s times Alex's level). This was by far the best change in the US version of Eternal Blue, and I know everyone will be euphoric to have this same experience in The Silver Star!
* Trying to load checkpoints will now reset the game. While this might appear to be a bug, if you think about it, it's really just a logical extension of the improvements to the save system!
* All enemies have their stats raised substantially.
* All items now cost much more.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the world of Worked Designs. Look forward to future entries in this series!
Brilliant my man! Can you change the plot like they did to the playstation release too? Oh and more fart jokes!
Title: Re: Worked Designs: Working Designs PLUS bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: GHANMI on April 02, 2017, 01:59:53 pm
0/10

Came for the 0 kilobyte patch and was disappointed with the completable game.
WD does no wrong.

Such a missed opportunity not to make the harp you play at the end of the game a missable item with obscure fetch quests to get it, for example a sidequest in that incestuous village (according to American Lunar canon) where you help a bastard child find out who his mother is, is it Hillary Clinton, Michael Jackson or Madeleine Albright? And then you get a piece of shit for your trouble which you have to trade with the white dragon in the beginning (imagine how priceless for players to realize that after they can no longer get it!) as the beginning of a looong fetch quest with no obvious cues or even dialogue hinting you got that item.
Add to that a hidden timer until the final boss is fed up and just initiates the end of the world (and wipes all saves). To add realism, and fix one gaping plot hole those japanese hacks didn't think of.
The possibilities are endless!

Well, including scrapped features like the old party movement pattern might be cool but who cares about that, why would we give those stupid devs the time and chance to screw up this game even further than they already did? We have enough on our plate to fix as it is already.
Title: Re: Worked Designs: Working Designs PLUS bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 1)
Post by: Supper on April 03, 2017, 11:48:50 pm
0/10

Came for the 0 kilobyte patch and was disappointed with the completable game.
WD does no wrong.

Such a missed opportunity not to make the harp you play at the end of the game a missable item with obscure fetch quests to get it, for example a sidequest in that incestuous village (according to American Lunar canon) where you help a bastard child find out who his mother is, is it Hillary Clinton, Michael Jackson or Madeleine Albright? And then you get a piece of shit for your trouble which you have to trade with the white dragon in the beginning (imagine how priceless for players to realize that after they can no longer get it!) as the beginning of a looong fetch quest with no obvious cues or even dialogue hinting you got that item.
Add to that a hidden timer until the final boss is fed up and just initiates the end of the world (and wipes all saves). To add realism, and fix one gaping plot hole those japanese hacks didn't think of.
The possibilities are endless!

Well, including scrapped features like the old party movement pattern might be cool but who cares about that, why would we give those stupid devs the time and chance to screw up this game even further than they already did? We have enough on our plate to fix as it is already.

Well, I did consider delaying the project three years in order to finish writing the OFFICIAL strategy guide, available from our toll-free line for ONLY $49.99! implement those changes, but unfortunately I was contractually obliged to ship by April 1st. Oh well, maybe next time!

I actually looked into restoring the old party movement a while back, and got it sort of working. If you copy over the chunk containing what I assume is the character movement scripts from the demo version to the final, you get working old-style formations with full party control. Unfortunately, this also breaks a lot of essential parts of the game, such as random encounters. Making it fully playable would take more finesse (plus it's full of bugs with characters getting stuck on terrain, which is probably why they scrapped it).

I'll see if I can dig up the ISO I was experimenting with and make a patch. The change involves copying chunks between the RES**.DAT files, though I can't seem to find where I wrote down the exact procedure...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Special T on April 08, 2017, 06:51:01 am
Is it normal for the cut scenes in popful mail to stutter occasionally or is this just an emulation issue?

I'm playing popful mail on a raspberry pi 3 in the lr-genesis-plus-gx emulator.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: lexluthermiester on April 08, 2017, 09:10:36 pm
Is it normal for the cut scenes in popful mail to stutter occasionally or is this just an emulation issue?

I'm playing popful mail on a raspberry pi 3 in the lr-genesis-plus-gx emulator.
Fairly certain it's a glitch for the emulator on the pi. Been playing the same game on Fusion for Windows and it runs perfectly.

Edit; Also runs perfectly on MD.emu for Android and GenPlusGX on Wii HBC. Must be a RPi thing.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: Supper on April 09, 2017, 05:45:34 am
Finally finished up with SSSC.

Lunar - Silver Star Story Complete (PlayStation) -- patch v0 (4/9/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/iPJHSpy.png) (http://i.imgur.com/NKvJPOj.png) (http://i.imgur.com/IXNna1f.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/l0wtdua6rbicxsa/Lunar+-+Silver+Star+Story+Complete+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through, should work fine.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* All regular enemies have their stats restored to their original levels from the Japanese version. (In general, the US version reduced enemy HP by 10%, increased Attack by 20-40%, reduced EXP payout by 15%, and reduced Silver payout by 11%.)
* The stat scaling used for bosses now functions as in the Japanese version. (The US version increased the scale rate of some stats for certain bosses, and increased the minimum scaled level by 2-6 levels for all bosses.)
* Chests now give out their original amounts of money. (The amounts were halved in the US version.)
* Additionally, a hidden Silver bonus in the Vane library was restored to 100s. (It was reduced to 10s in the US version).
* Jessica's Escape Litany spell now costs the original 1 MP rather than 20 MP.
* The note containing the solution to the first puzzle in Myght's Tower, which was deliberately removed in the US version, has been restored.
* In the US version, the hint text for the final color-order puzzle in the Goddess Tower was changed to an incorrect order that doesn't reflect the actual solution; it's been changed to the proper order.
* Alex's Ocarina is no longer required to finish the game. It's now also possible to give it to Nall, as in the Japanese version.

Note that the patching procedure is a bit different this time around in order to deal with the multiple discs/tracks. Be sure to read the readme.

This wound up being quite the adventure. Lots of stuff got changed all over the place, which made the job more interesting. I think this is an excellent counterexample to the seemingly common misconception that later Working Designs games had fewer gameplay changes.

One alteration I didn't do anything about was the bromide locations, which Working Designs changed, as usual, to try to drive up sales of their strategy guides. (Oh, excuse me... "to make more sense, or add continuity", according to the manual, in the same breath as some unsubtle comments about "frustrated gamers who were unfortunate enough to buy an unofficial guide".) While restoring this would be technically tricky but feasible, the more pressing issue is that I don't have translations (or even JP script dumps) for the event dialogue that was removed in the US version, which precludes any real effort at it for now. Sorry. Same goes for the shenanigans with the "Rememberizer".

Is it normal for the cut scenes in popful mail to stutter occasionally or is this just an emulation issue?

I'm playing popful mail on a raspberry pi 3 in the lr-genesis-plus-gx emulator.

I can't tell you with any certainty, but I don't know of any reason the patch would cause that. The only change of any consequence other than replacing the stat tables is to the order of the files on the disc, and while that might cause issues on hardware (as we've seen with Eternal Blue), I wouldn't expect it to cause stuttering unless the game is doing something very odd.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: CF2)
Post by: GHANMI on April 09, 2017, 11:43:49 am
Finally finished up with SSSC.

One alteration I didn't do anything about was the bromide locations, which Working Designs changed, as usual, to try to drive up sales of their strategy guides. (Oh, excuse me... "to make more sense, or add continuity", according to the manual, in the same breath as some unsubtle comments about "frustrated gamers who were unfortunate enough to buy an unofficial guide".) While restoring this would be technically tricky but feasible, the more pressing issue is that I don't have translations (or even JP script dumps) for the event dialogue that was removed in the US version, which precludes any real effort at it for now. Sorry. Same goes for the shenanigans with the "Rememberizer".

Awesome as always, Supper.
By any chance, do you mind elaborating on those removed random dialogues? Seems like quite the serious cut and now it really begs my curiosity.

It's not like anyone else online is documenting these changes that much, as much as passionate people trying to convince others it's actually a completely accurate translation ("did you know Quark says my poop/washi no unko in the Japanese version" or stuff). That would be really lovely. Your digests of the major changes for each game are always a treat to read and have new trivia not found anywhere else, but on the other hand I can see the romhacking work is already draining (dropping that many hacks for CD-based consoles casually is no small effort).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar SSS)
Post by: SCD on April 09, 2017, 11:55:40 am
You did a great job on this patch Supper, keep up the great work.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar SSS)
Post by: Supper on April 09, 2017, 04:36:06 pm
Awesome as always, Supper.
By any chance, do you mind elaborating on those removed random dialogues? Seems like quite the serious cut and now it really begs my curiosity.

It's not like anyone else online is documenting these changes that much, as much as passionate people trying to convince others it's actually a completely accurate translation ("did you know Quark says my poop/washi no unko in the Japanese version" or stuff). That would be really lovely. Your digests of the major changes for each game are always a treat to read and have new trivia not found anywhere else, but on the other hand I can see the romhacking work is already draining (dropping that many hacks for CD-based consoles casually is no small effort).

I'm referring to the changes listed in section 7 of this page (http://www.lunar-net.com/sssc/sss_diff.php). You can see that for the most part, the US version moved the bromides from Ramus' store to various other locations throughout the game. Similarly, the "Rememberizer" is a free gift in the Japanese version, and you can still get it for free in the US version if you visit Ramus at a certain time, but otherwise you have to buy it from him during the epilogue for 65000s. I haven't investigated closely, but I'm pretty sure the original dialogue Ramus had relating to these situations was replaced or removed in the US version, so it would have to be retranslated from the Japanese version.

Basically, while it's not a "big deal" compared to the difficulty edits, it's a tangled mess that'll take a lot of careful checking, testing, and script replacement to sort out, which is part of the reason I didn't try to do anything about it.

I'll put a full list of all the changed stats and so on on TCRF later, as I've been doing -- I doubt most people care to that extent, but I want to make sure anyone who wants to can find out what they're getting beyond "the stats are different". I usually make a patch for one game, write up the changes for the game I did before that, then make a patch for a new game and repeat; it provides a nice way to double-check my work with a fresh mindset. Currently, I'm due to write the Cosmic Fantasy 2 page, and I'll put together the SSSC page after I make the patch for my next project.

You did a great job on this patch Supper, keep up the great work.

Thank you. Haven't decided what to work on next yet (maybe Eternal Blue remake, maybe not).

Also, fun fact, Silver Star Story uses the same compressed format for its executable file as Elemental Gearbolt due to Gearbolt and the PS port of SSS both being developed by Alfa System. I had to write de/recompressors for the format in order to make this patch (I added them to the wdtools repo on Github, if anyone cares), so I guess I have a head start on that game if I ever I decide to do it.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar SSS)
Post by: Special T on April 12, 2017, 07:32:18 am
I tested the popful mail patch on the PC and I'm not experiencing the issue so it must be a lag issue isolated to the sega cd emulator on the raspberry pi. Luckily it's something I can easily ignore  :)

Thanks again for all the work you've put into these games!
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Supper on May 05, 2017, 01:14:22 pm
Sorry for the long delay -- I've been pretty busy lately. Here's Lunar 2.

Lunar 2 - Eternal Blue Complete (PlayStation) -- patch v0 (5/5/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/9uC6mZF.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/psspmicaar50ias/Lunar+2+-+Eternal+Blue+Complete+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through, should work fine.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* Holding down the X button will now continuously advance the dialogue, as in the Japanese version.
* In the Japanese version, the White Tower uses the same background track as the other Pentagulia towers, and White Mask Funk plays below the decks of the Destiny after acquiring it from Leo. The US version shuffles this around so that White Mask Funk plays in the White Tower, and the Destiny uses the world map theme. This has been reverted.
* The Serak Palace now charges the original 100 Silver instead of the US version's 666 Silver.

As you can see, that's a very short changelog. As it turns out, the US version of Lunar 2 did not, as far as I can tell, have its difficulty altered in any meaningful way -- enemy stats, item prices, spell costs, etc. are all the same. Honestly, I wouldn't have bothered making this patch at all if I hadn't already done all the other games in the series, but here it is for completion's sake.

I'm quite surprised the difficulty was left untouched, considering every other game by this company that I've looked at had some kind of changes, and I have to wonder what happened. Apparently, there was some internal tumult going on at Working Designs during the production of this game (Vic made a comment somewhere about having to take over writing duties after the original guy started behaving erratically, and called it "a really terrible last quarter of a project"), and since they were also in the process of replacing their programmer at the time, I'd guess things got chaotic enough that they simply ran out of time to mess with the difficulty.

Anyway, I'm going to take a break from doing any more of these patches, at least for now. With a dozen of these in the bag, I've put a decent dent in the Working Designs catalog, and frankly I've gotten pretty sick of the obnoxious, abrasive, and arrogant culture surrounding the company. I may tie up some loose ends that have been pending for a while (that dialogue overflow in TSS vivify told me about ages ago, nudity in Vay, etc.), but I'm not planning on starting work on any new games for now. I don't know if or when I'll get back to this, but thank you to everyone who's supported me the last few months. I hope you enjoy these games more than I can, because this project has made me lose what little taste I had for the English versions of them.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: darthvaderx on May 05, 2017, 05:12:46 pm
Anyway, I'm going to take a break from doing any more of these patches, at least for now. With a dozen of these in the bag, I've put a decent dent in the Working Designs catalog, and frankly I've gotten pretty sick of the obnoxious, abrasive, and arrogant culture surrounding the company. I may tie up some loose ends that have been pending for a while (that dialogue overflow in TSS vivify told me about ages ago, nudity in Vay, etc.), but I'm not planning on starting work on any new games for now. I don't know if or when I'll get back to this, but thank you to everyone who's supported me the last few months. I hope you enjoy these games more than I can, because this project has made me lose what little taste I had for the English versions of them.

That is:

Working Designs = George Lucas ...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: patuli on May 05, 2017, 05:35:00 pm
I know that this thread is about working designs, but would you ever consider fixing other games, from a different company?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: TRIFORCE89 on May 05, 2017, 07:47:01 pm
Excellent work on all of this Supper! Thank you. Always happy to see these kind of improvement or definitive version patches.

Before you hang up your hat though, could you please submit these patches to the RHDN directory before they get lost to the eventual MediaFire broken link netherverse?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Chronosplit on May 05, 2017, 09:51:16 pm
Before you hang up your hat though, could you please submit these patches to the RHDN directory before they get lost to the eventual MediaFire broken link netherverse?
I've been wondering why they haven't been uploaded yet tbh.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Supper on May 06, 2017, 03:16:16 am
I know that this thread is about working designs, but would you ever consider fixing other games, from a different company?

Perhaps. In fact, there's one game in particular that I'm taking a look at right now, though no promises yet.

Excellent work on all of this Supper! Thank you. Always happy to see these kind of improvement or definitive version patches.

Before you hang up your hat though, could you please submit these patches to the RHDN directory before they get lost to the eventual MediaFire broken link netherverse?

Thanks. These are hardly "definitive versions", but given the improbability of retranslations for any of these games, they'll have to do. And yeah, I meant to mention I'll submit these once I've got the remaining odds and ends taken care of.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Kallisto on May 06, 2017, 07:36:28 am
Vay had nudity? I'm kind of surprised at that..well maybe not since that was common for SEGA CD games.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Supper on May 07, 2017, 06:22:46 am
Vay had nudity? I'm kind of surprised at that..well maybe not since that was common for SEGA CD games.

Just some harpy enemy that got a bikini top in the US version. I don't really care, but no one else is ever going to bother hacking the game, so I might as well take care of everything I can.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: elmer on May 07, 2017, 06:59:51 pm
Anyway, I'm going to take a break from doing any more of these patches, at least for now.

Thanks for all of your hard work on these!

I, for one, really appreciate the work that you've done here in turning back the silly-changes that WD made to those games.

For all the wonderful thing that they did in actually making those Japan-only games available to a Western audience, the way that they went about it has always annoyed me.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: butane bob on May 08, 2017, 04:02:05 am
Thanks for these patches Supper.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Blackiris on May 08, 2017, 05:53:44 am
Thank you for all your work, Supper (especially on the Lunar games)! Very much appreciated!  :)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: darthvaderx on May 08, 2017, 10:16:30 pm
Supper, thank you for all your hard work and I'm sorry for WD to have such a distorted view of the gaming world ("Our games go to 11 !!!"), so I quoted "Working Designs = George Lucas" (that guy who created one of the biggest franchises of all time and at the same time almost ruined it completely by making completely wrong decisions).

Finally I only regret not having a revised version of "Arc The Lad Collection", but everything is fine, I will enjoy your hacks very well ... :thumbsup:

(I'm using Google translator in some parts, I hope to be transmitting correctly what I mean ...)
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: chrisw80 on May 21, 2017, 06:06:20 am
Sorry for the long delay -- I've been pretty busy lately. Here's Lunar 2.

Lunar 2 - Eternal Blue Complete (PlayStation) -- patch v0 (5/5/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/9uC6mZF.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/psspmicaar50ias/Lunar+2+-+Eternal+Blue+Complete+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through, should work fine.
Changes:
Spoiler:
* Holding down the X button will now continuously advance the dialogue, as in the Japanese version.
* In the Japanese version, the White Tower uses the same background track as the other Pentagulia towers, and White Mask Funk plays below the decks of the Destiny after acquiring it from Leo. The US version shuffles this around so that White Mask Funk plays in the White Tower, and the Destiny uses the world map theme. This has been reverted.
* The Serak Palace now charges the original 100 Silver instead of the US version's 666 Silver.

As you can see, that's a very short changelog. As it turns out, the US version of Lunar 2 did not, as far as I can tell, have its difficulty altered in any meaningful way -- enemy stats, item prices, spell costs, etc. are all the same. Honestly, I wouldn't have bothered making this patch at all if I hadn't already done all the other games in the series, but here it is for completion's sake.

I'm quite surprised the difficulty was left untouched, considering every other game by this company that I've looked at had some kind of changes, and I have to wonder what happened. Apparently, there was some internal tumult going on at Working Designs during the production of this game (Vic made a comment somewhere about having to take over writing duties after the original guy started behaving erratically, and called it "a really terrible last quarter of a project"), and since they were also in the process of replacing their programmer at the time, I'd guess things got chaotic enough that they simply ran out of time to mess with the difficulty.

Anyway, I'm going to take a break from doing any more of these patches, at least for now. With a dozen of these in the bag, I've put a decent dent in the Working Designs catalog, and frankly I've gotten pretty sick of the obnoxious, abrasive, and arrogant culture surrounding the company. I may tie up some loose ends that have been pending for a while (that dialogue overflow in TSS vivify told me about ages ago, nudity in Vay, etc.), but I'm not planning on starting work on any new games for now. I don't know if or when I'll get back to this, but thank you to everyone who's supported me the last few months. I hope you enjoy these games more than I can, because this project has made me lose what little taste I had for the English versions of them.

Been awhile since I last tried any of these patches on real hardware but Lunar 2 patch for psx is freezing at this point.
https://ibb.co/eDgN5v

Tried it with both a boot disc and the gameshark exploit.

Lunar SSSC psx appears to be working fine in both cases tho. Will test the others sometime this week. Thanks again
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: KingMike on May 21, 2017, 04:05:42 pm
Supper, thank you for all your hard work and I'm sorry for WD to have such a distorted view of the gaming world ("Our games go to 11 !!!"), so I quoted "Working Designs = George Lucas" (that guy who created one of the biggest franchises of all time and at the same time almost ruined it completely by making completely wrong decisions).
I'd say there's a little difference in that at least George was altering his OWN creation. :P
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: GHANMI on May 21, 2017, 07:34:47 pm
Didn't see the recent updates, guess I'm late to the party.
Really good job you've done for all of these games, Supper. Considering how these games are too obscure to have someone else retranslate properly this might be their best shot at a presentation closer to the original experience.

Thanks a lot for everything you did so far.
Having these fixes and the enjoyable insights into the game's regional changes forever would be like a dream coming true, but not realistic, certainly not if the cost is a headache to the modder because of the "subculture" around these changes (if Xseed's handling of the PSP version of Lunar is too much for them, and they're the best in the business, what chance does someone bugfixing the old releases have?), or the novelty factor wearing thin and your interest fading.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Supper on May 26, 2017, 12:13:18 am
Sorry for the late reply -- been a bit busy with other projects, but I'm slowly adding the remaining fixes I mentioned. Most recently, I copied over the original enemy graphics from the Japanese version of Vay. Looks like about five enemies were changed due to nudity (maybe -- hard to tell from the raw tiles alone). Vay really has an absurdly disproportionate number of changes for how low-profile a release it was.

Been awhile since I last tried any of these patches on real hardware but Lunar 2 patch for psx is freezing at this point.
https://ibb.co/eDgN5v

Tried it with both a boot disc and the gameshark exploit.

Lunar SSSC psx appears to be working fine in both cases tho. Will test the others sometime this week. Thanks again

Hmm, that's pretty strange, since I barely touched anything in Lunar 2 and it works fine on emulators. I think that's the first point where the game plays regular music, so maybe I messed something up when I NOPed out the hack that swaps the White Tower and Destiny themes. Sorry, and I'll see if I can fix it. Thanks again for testing these on hardware!

Didn't see the recent updates, guess I'm late to the party.
Really good job you've done for all of these games, Supper. Considering how these games are too obscure to have someone else retranslate properly this might be their best shot at a presentation closer to the original experience.

Thanks a lot for everything you did so far.
Having these fixes and the enjoyable insights into the game's regional changes forever would be like a dream coming true, but not realistic, certainly not if the cost is a headache to the modder because of the "subculture" around these changes (if Xseed's handling of the PSP version of Lunar is too much for them, and they're the best in the business, what chance does someone bugfixing the old releases have?), or the novelty factor wearing thin and your interest fading.

Thanks. This project has certainly jaded me on Western releases of Japanese games. Working Designs is probably the nastiest of the lot as far as rewriting dialogue goes, but every time I play a game now, I find myself wondering how much of the English text was simply made up in order to "sound better". It all just drives home the degree to which video games are viewed, by publishers and many consumers, as commercial products to be freely "improved" rather than works worth preserving in translation. That sentiment, as much as anything else, has soured me on the whole thing lately.

On a side note, I played the Lunar Walking School fan translation recently -- neat little game, and I can't tell you how nice it is to have a Lunar game that isn't infected by Working Designs. Props to everyone involved! Maybe I'll finish the Saturn remake someday, if I ever get around to making a code to deal with the absurd encounter rates...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: illuminerdi on July 08, 2017, 10:34:58 am
I just wanted to take a moment to say thanks, Supper. I am a HUGE fan of Working Designs, however I definitely agree that you're doing the right thing fixing the asinine changes they made to the difficulty of their games.

Also I wanted to take a moment to explain why I'm a fan of WD. Their translations have aged terribly, and they did butcher the script of many games they worked on.

BUT - I'm 35. In the late 80s and through about 2000 there really weren't anyone localizing games like these. Many of these games *WERE* niche, and gaming itself was still pretty niche back then. If it wasn't for WD I have no doubt that most/all of these games would have never been released in English before the days of fan translations. Since fan translations weren't even a thin until the late 90s, and emulation of systems like the PSX wasn't really viable until the mid 2000s, many of us would have missed out on ever playing these games at all.

I don't think hating on you is at all fair, but do try to understand that many of us love WD because of what they did, not because of HOW they did it.

Still though, I think changing the difficulty was a completely stupid thing to do, and in some cases (Exile 2) it completely broke the game. There was no good reason to do that, and thank you again for what you're doing.

Perhaps you could take a break from WD games and look into doing fixes for other games? I'm sure WD wasn't the only company monkeying with game balance when bringing games overseas (Squaresoft circa 1992 I'm looking at YOU), so perhaps there are other games that could use some fixing?

(And yes I know that FFIV has already been fixed, I'm just pointing to that as an example).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Magma Dragoon on July 09, 2017, 02:45:16 pm
You know, I've been wondering if WD made any significant changes on the shooters they ported (Elemental Gearbolt, RayStorm, RayCrisis, Thunder Force V).
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Teeporage777 on July 09, 2017, 05:30:51 pm
This is great work. I love the lunar games. They are some of my favorites
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: cj iwakura on July 09, 2017, 09:54:54 pm
You know, I've been wondering if WD made any significant changes on the shooters they ported (Elemental Gearbolt, RayStorm, RayCrisis, Thunder Force V).

I know Elemental Gearbolt is hard as ALL HELL on the US version, but Alfa System games aren't exactly easy...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: KingMike on July 09, 2017, 10:42:21 pm
I'm sure I read a Hardcore Gaming 101 review on that game, but I don't remember how they compared.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Imaynotbehere4long on August 17, 2017, 09:16:40 pm
I'm curious: when do you plan on uploading these to the main site?  That way, your patches show up in the searches and more people can find them (I'm sure more people than us forum members would like to try out your patches). For example, I had heard about what happened with Exile II: Wicked Phenomenon, but it wasn't until now, digging through the archives of the Personal Projects subforum, that I saw something was done about it.

Spoiler:
* The US version modified the very end of the game to make Alex take extremely high damage from Luna's lightning blasts unless the player uses the Alex's Harp item.

I'm gonna risk playing Devil's Advocate here and say that, although I found it frustrating at first, when I figured out what I had to do, I actually thought that part of the game was pretty clever.
Spoiler:
Basically, in the game's plot, Luna has been hypnotized into fighting Alex, and when Alex plays the harp, that helps Luna remember who she is and fight the brainwashing, and as a result, restrain her attacks and deal less damage. Now that I know that wasn't part of the original game, I wonder what the point of that part was.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Thug on August 30, 2017, 11:01:52 am
So WD had increased the difficalty of the first Lunar in PSX version. That explains why I always had to spend extra time on mob-grinding to level up in order to beat the first boss in a town. Nice work!
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Supper on September 03, 2017, 05:36:23 am
Sorry I've been neglecting this thread so badly. To everyone who's given support, thanks! I'll try to respond to everything that warrants it, however belatedly...

I'm curious: when do you plan on uploading these to the main site?  That way, your patches show up in the searches and more people can find them (I'm sure more people than us forum members would like to try out your patches). For example, I had heard about what happened with Exile II: Wicked Phenomenon, but it wasn't until now, digging through the archives of the Personal Projects subforum, that I saw something was done about it.

I'm gonna risk playing Devil's Advocate here and say that, although I found it frustrating at first, when I figured out what I had to do, I actually thought that part of the game was pretty clever.
Spoiler:
Basically, in the game's plot, Luna has been hypnotized into fighting Alex, and when Alex plays the harp, that helps Luna remember who she is and fight the brainwashing, and as a result, restrain her attacks and deal less damage. Now that I know that wasn't part of the original game, I wonder what the point of that part was.

Yes, I've intended for a while to get these on the site, but I wanted to make some final updates and quality checks beforehand. Obviously those have been in limbo for a while, and lately I've been distracted by a somewhat-related translation project, so it'll probably be a while before everything's ready to go. Sorry for the holdup, but I can only endure so much Vay and Alundra at a time.

As for Silver Star's climax, I actually agree: the Working Designs version is the more memorable conclusion. When I first played the game years ago, knowing nothing about Working Designs except the name, the thing I remembered most about it afterwards was using the harp at the end. But I don't want to cherry-pick "good changes" and "bad changes"; if something was meaningfully altered for the US version and it's in my power to revert it, I'm doing it, regardless of whether I think it was for the better.

I'd also add that this gimmick worked much better in the original version of the game than the remake. The Sega CD version has a checkpoint at the start of the sequence and visually indicates that you're taking damage and will die if you don't do something, whereas in the remake, there's a good chance a first-time player will just keep plowing on ahead and end up getting instakilled out of nowhere. And god forbid you neglected to save right after beating the final boss, since checkpoints are gone and you're locked out of saving during that sequence. Plus the Ocarina normally functions as a sound test, which makes it far less intuitive that it suddenly does something new at the very end of the game. And then there's the fact that they ended up forcing you to waste an inventory slot for the entire game just to make sure you'd have it for that scene...

So WD had increased the difficalty of the first Lunar in PSX version. That explains why did I always have to spend extra time on mob-grinding to level up in order to beat the first boss in a town. Nice work!

Yeah, it ends up being pretty nasty because not only do enemies give less EXP, the minimum levels to which bosses' stats are scaled are increased, and IIRC the way stats are scaled makes enemies significantly harder to beat at higher levels, despite your characters being more powerful. (I seem to recall hacking the party to level 50 one time and getting completely decimated by the first boss.)

You know, I've been wondering if WD made any significant changes on the shooters they ported (Elemental Gearbolt, RayStorm, RayCrisis, Thunder Force V).

I know Elemental Gearbolt is hard as ALL HELL on the US version, but Alfa System games aren't exactly easy...

I haven't tried any of the others, but yeah, the Japanese version of Gearbolt is pretty easy and the US version is extremely hard. After a few hours of playing the Japanese version, I could get to the final boss on the hardest difficulty with no problem, but I couldn't even beat the "training" mode on the US version (which incidentally is "easy" mode in the Japanese version, and doesn't end after 3 stages). Enemies definitely do more damage; I don't know if the changes go further than that.

Chances are the other games you mentioned have comparable alterations. Working Designs was pretty consistent about that up until 2000, when they apparently just stopped doing it (AFAICT -- I'm basing this on Lunar 2 and a cursory examination of Arc the Lad, so there may well be stuff I don't know about). I like to think that Vic backed off of the difficulty changes after several reviewers specifically slammed Working Designs' alterations to the mechanics in Silhouette Mirage (GameSpot gave it a 4.6, calling it an "unrewarding chore overwrought with tedium" compared to the original) (https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/silhouette-mirage-review/1900-2549299/). Though now that I check, he seems to have spent plenty of time trying to convince people who complained about this that they were somehow wrong to do so (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.video.sony/s177eT1Nj3k/OjhQmlcoe5YJ), so maybe not.

I just wanted to take a moment to say thanks, Supper. I am a HUGE fan of Working Designs, however I definitely agree that you're doing the right thing fixing the asinine changes they made to the difficulty of their games.

Also I wanted to take a moment to explain why I'm a fan of WD. Their translations have aged terribly, and they did butcher the script of many games they worked on.

BUT - I'm 35. In the late 80s and through about 2000 there really weren't anyone localizing games like these. Many of these games *WERE* niche, and gaming itself was still pretty niche back then. If it wasn't for WD I have no doubt that most/all of these games would have never been released in English before the days of fan translations. Since fan translations weren't even a thin until the late 90s, and emulation of systems like the PSX wasn't really viable until the mid 2000s, many of us would have missed out on ever playing these games at all.

I don't think hating on you is at all fair, but do try to understand that many of us love WD because of what they did, not because of HOW they did it.

Still though, I think changing the difficulty was a completely stupid thing to do, and in some cases (Exile 2) it completely broke the game. There was no good reason to do that, and thank you again for what you're doing.

Perhaps you could take a break from WD games and look into doing fixes for other games? I'm sure WD wasn't the only company monkeying with game balance when bringing games overseas (Squaresoft circa 1992 I'm looking at YOU), so perhaps there are other games that could use some fixing?

(And yes I know that FFIV has already been fixed, I'm just pointing to that as an example).

Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly that the concept of Working Designs was great. I love games that are unusual, niche, often overlooked, or simply perceived as "unmarketable" by most American publishers in the '90s. Bringing over those games from Japan and giving them a great, polished translation to put big-budget publishers to shame would have been awesome. Except of course that's not what happened, and so here I am, trying to salvage these to the extent that I can.

If Working Designs helped lead to the rise of later localization companies that did what the company should have done in the first place, they deserve credit for that much. It was still a heavy price to pay, and I think you can understand my frustration at having to choose between stumbling through a game in a language I don't know, or playing a horribly mangled version of the same thing that could have been so much more.

But yes, there are certainly plenty of other games with comparable difficulty changes. I've actually been eyeing Legend of Legaia as a possible future project, though I've got enough on my plate at this point that that's probably a long way off.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for your feedback. I'll try to get these on the site in a timely manner, but hey, it wouldn't be a Working Designs thread without some delays...
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Reiska on September 05, 2017, 05:45:18 am
Legend of Legaia at least should be a fairly easy project I think, since if I'm not mistaken the difficulty changes are exclusive to the US release (the PAL version maintains the Japanese version's difficulty, or so I recall reading).

Looking forward to it if you take it up!  Legaia's a favorite of mine.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: YeahYeahNo on September 18, 2017, 04:03:52 am
I have a question, does the psx version share the same translation or is it more acceptable?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Chronosplit on September 18, 2017, 09:51:44 am
I have a question, does the psx version share the same translation or is it more acceptable?
The translation itself is untouched in these patches.

The difference between PSX and SCD text is some new parts are in but others were taken out.  I can't really say if one is more acceptable than the other as they tend to both have the same quality.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: YeahYeahNo on September 18, 2017, 01:04:51 pm
The translation itself is untouched in these patches.

The difference between PSX and SCD text is some new parts are in but others were taken out.  I can't really say if one is more acceptable than the other as they tend to both have the same quality.

Well that's a shame. Given how many translations you can find for some games (FFIII looking at you), feels strange since Lunar seems to be a cult game.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: RetroProf on September 19, 2017, 04:06:46 pm
This is pretty cool.

I read the ReadMe files with the SCD/TCD games, and my emulation set-up is with ISO/MP3 on my Xbox.

The ReadMe states I need to put the audio files in WAV format with the ISO, and all of them get renamed, and then I need to use the accompanying CUE?

Is this to help people inexperienced with emulation? Because I just want to patch my ISO, rename it back to what it was, and then drop back in my original folder on my Xbox with my original CUE.

I'm assuming the patcher doesn't actually change the audio data, since it's simply altering numerical numbers in the game itself... Right?

If something was meaningfully altered for the US version and it's in my power to revert it, I'm doing it, regardless of whether I think it was for the better.

This is the same disturbing kind of hubris Working Designs had.

I don't want to criticise you, seeing as you're doing all the lifting here, and I'm enjoying these patches for free, but why take that attitude?

Why not cherry pick? Why not create the definitive or *best* version? Or create varied patches, maybe with a menu system, where players can choose what they want? Sort of like how Vampire: Bloodlines had options to vary a patch to the user's taste.

I mean, I basically don't understand your stoic determination to revert everything in your power, even if it's for the worse, while at the same time admitting there's a ton of stuff you can't revert.

I read through your notes with great fascination, and there's actually a few things I didn't like being reverted.

Now I'm wondering... Do I put up with crappy changes to get the few good, or do I revert even if it means losing good stuff...?

Regardless, I appreciate the work. For Exile II previously I'd played through the JPN release, switching in the English audio files. Nice to play it through properly.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: butane bob on September 20, 2017, 02:40:28 am
Can anyone confirm if WD butchered Dragon Force in any way?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: GHANMI on September 20, 2017, 07:44:12 am
I don't want to criticise you, seeing as you're doing all the lifting here, and I'm enjoying these patches for free, but why take that attitude?

Why not cherry pick? Why not create the definitive or *best* version?

I read through your notes with great fascination, and there's actually a few things I didn't like being reverted.

That would be horrible. At that point you're better off served with a honest-to-god self proclaimed romhack as opposed to something that proclaims to restore Working Designs stuff while it doesn't actually do what it advertises.

Saw a review for the Super Mario Advance 4 voice removal patch, distributed separate from the palette restoration patch (and for good reason) claiming it's good that "racist" voice acting was "fixed" and that's how it was "originally intended" (nevermind who actually programmed in that voice acting in the first place). If that reviewer was the one who did the patch and called it a "restoration" to "how it was originally intended" or "how the devs would like it" in his opinion, that would be dishonest.

I appreciate that Supper is going the extra mile to do this (in fact, it inspired me to work on similar projects) to try and provide the original Japanese difficulty. There's worth in that -- even Nintendo's official SMA4 offered via e-Reader cards difficulty options between the Western and Japanese versions. I like that people interested in playing these games with that level of challenge have the option to play it in English rather than "suck it up and get the Japanese version" or perish the thought and play that joyless version where everything is a bullet sponge and genuinely unwinnable situations abound.

Restoration modifications are woefully lacking as is.
I don't want less of these and more of FuSoYa's Secret of Mana "restorations" that turn out to be an elaborate "author" romhack. The existing WD patches already pick and choose and keep legit QoL US version enhancements that are on par the course with every US localisation enhancement from that time (like Illusion of Gaia getting better boss sprites and attack patterns), but to keep further and more drastic changes (balance changes, and graphical cuts for one) and not out of technical limitations puts in question the point behind these hacks as "restoration" modifications.

It's really unfortunate you don't like these, but I'm really not comfortable with not only the English version, BUT also the "restoration" patches keeping on purpose, not by omission, some of these changes and thus forcing it on everyone. You'll have to excuse my cynical outlook on the matter considering quite a bit of outside hateful attention came here requesting the choice to play these patches not to exist at all for everyone, and this has left quite a sour taste.
With the notes already published, the possibility for someone to take a look at these and make a selective patch is more than affordable. So why not do that instead? I frequently change fan-translation fonts I don't like personally.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Supper on September 20, 2017, 11:42:39 am
This is pretty cool.

I read the ReadMe files with the SCD/TCD games, and my emulation set-up is with ISO/MP3 on my Xbox.

The ReadMe states I need to put the audio files in WAV format with the ISO, and all of them get renamed, and then I need to use the accompanying CUE?

Is this to help people inexperienced with emulation? Because I just want to patch my ISO, rename it back to what it was, and then drop back in my original folder on my Xbox with my original CUE.

I'm assuming the patcher doesn't actually change the audio data, since it's simply altering numerical numbers in the game itself... Right?

Yeah, none of the patches touch the audio data. I haven't tried, but just patching the ISO shouldn't cause any problems beyond a bunch of "file not found" messages from the BAT scripts. I set the patching process up the way I did mostly so I could unify BIN and ISO patching to a single case, and yeah, to simplify things for people who might not know the details of BIN, CUE, etc.

This is the same disturbing kind of hubris Working Designs had.

I don't want to criticise you, seeing as you're doing all the lifting here, and I'm enjoying these patches for free, but why take that attitude?

Why not cherry pick? Why not create the definitive or *best* version? Or create varied patches, maybe with a menu system, where players can choose what they want? Sort of like how Vampire: Bloodlines had options to vary a patch to the user's taste.

I mean, I basically don't understand your stoic determination to revert everything in your power, even if it's for the worse, while at the same time admitting there's a ton of stuff you can't revert.

I read through your notes with great fascination, and there's actually a few things I didn't like being reverted.

Now I'm wondering... Do I put up with crappy changes to get the few good, or do I revert even if it means losing good stuff...?

Regardless, I appreciate the work. For Exile II previously I'd played through the JPN release, switching in the English audio files. Nice to play it through properly.

Well, I'd say it's more like the opposite of hubris (whatever you call that), but there are any number of reasons I'm doing things this way.

To put it simply, it's not my goal to "improve" the games. I want them to be available as they were originally designed so that people can experience them that way, without having to blunder through a 40-hour RPG in a language they don't know. Patches specifically designed to add new features or better balance are great, but they're not what I want to make in this case.

Obviously, most people play games because they want to have fun, and are perfectly happy with changes that, subjectively, make the game more fun. That's perfectly reasonable. But personally, I like to experience games as they were originally designed, flaws and all. I guess it sounds silly and pretentious to talk about "evaluating games from a historical perspective", but often that's what I'm interested in doing, and because of that I'd like to be able to play them in a form as close to the original as possible. Not being able to do anything about the rewritten scripts means it's always going to be a compromised effort, but it's better than nothing.

I agree that ideally, I'd set everything up so you could toggle individual changes and play the game exactly the way you want, but that's trickier than it sounds. Aside from the extra work of setting up a frontend and allowing patches to be applied programmatically, some changes just can't be trivially layered on top of each other. For instance, swapping in the uncensored cutscene files from the Japanese version of Eternal Blue requires the ISO filesystem to be rebuilt, which means all the data gets moved around and you can't just apply a bunch of IPS patches on top. While it's all doable with enough work, it gets complicated and messy and turns into more than I really want to deal with, especially for dozens of games with wildly differing requirements.

Plus, I think TSS's ending is an exception in this regard. Most of the Working Designs changes that I'd consider legitimate enhancements are stuff like having more save files, which I've left in because it's more trouble than it's worth to remove and really has nothing to do with the game itself. It's technically a violation of the project goals, but sometimes it's just not worth the effort.

Anyway, thanks for giving these patches a spin. Hope you're enjoying the games despite any changes you don't like.

Can anyone confirm if WD butchered Dragon Force in any way?

I've been meaning to check this out, but haven't gotten around to it. Tim Trzepacz states on his resume that he added "gameplay enhancements" to it, which doesn't bode well.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: RetroProf on September 20, 2017, 01:34:36 pm
It's really unfortunate you don't like these

I never once said I didn't like them. I was mainly curious as to the author's motivation for wishing to revert everything, rather than cherry pick. I spent this afternoon applying every one of those patches (apart from LEB on PS1, because CBA on moving 2gigs of data for such small changes).

Anyway, thanks for giving these patches a spin. Hope you're enjoying the games despite any changes you don't like.

No, thank YOU for making them. Many years ago I had wondered if it were possible for someone to take the Exile 2 data and swap in the variables from the JPN version. In the end I put the English audio files in the JPN version, and it worked reasonably enough. Very cool to now have a playable version. I've also been meaning to play the Lunar games for the last 20 years. Now might finally be the time!

I had some trouble with the drag-n-drop method (Win XP), but got there in the end with command line patching. I should mention, some games' post-patch hashes did not match what was in the Readme for that game (ie: Exile 2), and for some reason both my Lunar games on Sega CD didn't match the pre-patch hash. However, everything booted fine after patching, and the changes seem to be in place.

Could I be looking at a random crash down the line?

Also, not sure if this is the patch for Magic Knight Rayearth, or my RHEA board screwing up, but I was playing it patched and on an SD card on actual Saturn. Right at the start, after you fall off that flying griffon thing, the game seemed to half-freeze. The voiceless dialogue boxes popped up, but after the text had run it just hanged there for ages. Like it was trying to find and load data but couldn't find it. I managed to get beyond this part and save, and reset the Saturn, and it worked fine again. I'm not sure if the unpatched version does this.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Supper on September 20, 2017, 04:18:17 pm
No, thank YOU for making them. Many years ago I had wondered if it were possible for someone to take the Exile 2 data and swap in the variables from the JPN version. In the end I put the English audio files in the JPN version, and it worked reasonably enough. Very cool to now have a playable version. I've also been meaning to play the Lunar games for the last 20 years. Now might finally be the time!

I had some trouble with the drag-n-drop method (Win XP), but got there in the end with command line patching. I should mention, some games' post-patch hashes did not match what was in the Readme for that game (ie: Exile 2), and for some reason both my Lunar games on Sega CD didn't match the pre-patch hash. However, everything booted fine after patching, and the changes seem to be in place.

Could I be looking at a random crash down the line?

Also, not sure if this is the patch for Magic Knight Rayearth, or my RHEA board screwing up, but I was playing it patched and on an SD card on actual Saturn. Right at the start, after you fall off that flying griffon thing, the game seemed to half-freeze. The voiceless dialogue boxes popped up, but after the text had run it just hanged there for ages. Like it was trying to find and load data but couldn't find it. I managed to get beyond this part and save, and reset the Saturn, and it worked fine again. I'm not sure if the unpatched version does this.

Hey, you're welcome. It's fun to make these, and even better if other people actually play them.

Yeah, I forgot to update the post-patch hashes when I released new patch versions. Sorry. I took the hashes out of the readme entirely for newer patches, but I haven't put out new releases of some of the affected patches yet. As long as the pre-patch hash matches, you should be fine.

I'm not sure about the issue with Rayearth. It could easily be something that got screwed up when I rebuilt the ISO -- it was my first time working on a Saturn game, so I didn't appreciate some of the intricacies involved, like the fact that games can use dummy entries in the filesystem to provide pointers to CD audio tracks. Rayearth has a CD audio pointer that's definitely broken by the patch, but I don't think it's actually used by the game, since the only audio track is the standard "this is a Saturn game, don't put it in a CD player" message.

I'm planning to re-release the patch in the future using a cleaner method of changing the disc contents, so you can see if that fixes your problem. Don't know when that'll happen, but I'll bump it up on the priority list.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: lexluthermiester on September 20, 2017, 10:54:37 pm
Supper, I also wish to express gratitude for your excellent work! I've finished "Cosmic Fantasy 2" & "Popful Mail" again, which were FAR more fun to play through this time around! Am working through "Vay" currently and having a blast. Gonna hit the Lunar games as soon as I can find the physical games. Wish I could play through MKRE, but alas my Saturn CD lens kicked the bucket and finding replacements is a pain..
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: legendarysnake1 on October 04, 2017, 01:00:14 am
i tried to apply the popful mail patch on the bin( i dragged the bin file to the bat file) it opened a cmd window, i saw the progress there. the windows closed by itself.
i tested and the first enemie was damaging me with 12 points instead of 10 of japanese versions. the mages enemies give me 20 points of damage instead of 10. ok. maybe i will see the diference on the store, i thinked. the prices:
amulet 1500 gold
orange 90 gold
cherry 180 gold

its all the same. the patch didnt worked.


the rom was downloaded on -- mention of specific rom site excised --. can someone help me?
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: lexluthermiester on October 04, 2017, 11:23:14 pm
i tried to apply the popful mail patch on the bin( i dragged the bin file to the bat file) it opened a cmd window, i saw the progress there. the windows closed by itself.
i tested and the first enemie was damaging me with 12 points instead of 10 of japanese versions. the mages enemies give me 20 points of damage instead of 10. ok. maybe i will see the diference on the store, i thinked. the prices:
amulet 1500 gold
orange 90 gold
cherry 180 gold

its all the same. the patch didnt worked.


the rom was downloaded on -- mention of specific rom site excised --. can someone help me?
You need to follow the patching instructions precisely, no drag&drop. The ISO you have is likely just fine. Just make sure you follow the patching directions.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: legendarysnake1 on October 05, 2017, 05:52:12 am
You need to follow the patching instructions precisely, no drag&drop. The ISO you have is likely just fine. Just make sure you follow the patching directions.

i didnt no i could not put the site here. sorry mods. the instructions was saying to drag and drop. theres a manual patch too but i did not test it.

the instrucions was like this on read me file: -

If you're using Windows, move your disc image files into the same directory as
the program and do one of these as appropriate:
  * If you have a BIN/CUE disc image, drag and drop the BIN file (or IMG file)
onto binpatch.bat.

i did that it "worked" but it did not recognized the patch. im using genesis plus gx on retroarch.
 
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: Supper on October 06, 2017, 04:53:41 am
i tried to apply the popful mail patch on the bin( i dragged the bin file to the bat file) it opened a cmd window, i saw the progress there. the windows closed by itself.
i tested and the first enemie was damaging me with 12 points instead of 10 of japanese versions. the mages enemies give me 20 points of damage instead of 10. ok. maybe i will see the diference on the store, i thinked. the prices:
amulet 1500 gold
orange 90 gold
cherry 180 gold

its all the same. the patch didnt worked.


the rom was downloaded on -- mention of specific rom site excised --. can someone help me?

Well, that could be a number of things. Just to be sure, you did run the "PopfulMailUnWorked.cue" file and not your original CUE, right? The patcher doesn't touch your original files; it makes a copy and patches that.

Otherwise, I'll probably have to get you to run the patcher from the command line to see if you're getting any error messages. I should probably have set it up to log to a text file to make things easier, but too late for that.
Title: Re: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)
Post by: legendarysnake1 on October 06, 2017, 04:34:53 pm
Well, that could be a number of things. Just to be sure, you did run the "PopfulMailUnWorked.cue" file and not your original CUE, right? The patcher doesn't touch your original files; it makes a copy and patches that.

Otherwise, I'll probably have to get you to run the patcher from the command line to see if you're getting any error messages. I should probably have set it up to log to a text file to make things easier, but too late for that.

man thank you so much! i didnt know i had to run the PopfulMailUnWorked.cue file. i always rename that file to combine with the bin file. the author should be more explicit in the text file about run the unworked.cue file. i tought it modified all the bin and cue files.

now at first its everything okay. 10 damage in the first enemy, the magic attack it give me 10 damage instead of 20. and oh my god, the prices. jesus crist, how worked designs fucked up this so bad?

Amulet 100
orange 60
cherry 120

vs

amulet 1500 gold
orange 90 gold
cherry 180 gold


why were they thinking raising 1500% the price of the amulet?! im so glad that the game is finally patched. im near the end but fuck this, im gonna restart to replay the game in the way it was originally designed in japan. i only have fun in the first world cause it was more easy.

thanks again man.