Voice redubs are doable considering this was amateur level voice acting back in the day, so I think anyone can pull that off if needed.
Got I loved Lunar silver star so much as a kid, I hate that it was butchered so hard, to think I could of been playing an even better game! The Lunar games need a legends of localization.
This is really cool, I've been waiting for a hack for Popful Mail that would decrease the difficulty back to the way it was. I don't know why they increased it in the first place. You did a excellent job on the hack.
Any plans on making Un-Worked Designs patches for the PSX versions of both Lunar games and Silhouette Mirage including decensoring the game as well?
I don't know why they increased it in the first place.The official reason was because of people who would beat games quickly and then try to return them to the store as "defective", basically scamming WD.
Lunar.net has all the differences between the uncut Japanese version and the J2e/4Kids-like abortion that Working Designs did for the Lunar games.
Lunar.net has all the differences between the uncut Japanese version and the J2e/4Kids-like abortion that Working Designs did for the Lunar games.
Yes, Working Designs jacked up the difficulty on Lunar to arguably unplayably frustrating levels for no readily apparent reason.
Got I loved Lunar silver star so much as a kid, I hate that it was butchered so hard, to think I could of been playing an even better game! The Lunar games need a legends of localization.
Voice redubs are doable considering this was amateur level voice acting back in the day, so I think anyone can pull that off if needed.
Thank you for creating these! Is there a chance you could do the same for Magic Knight Rayearth (Saturn)? A fun Zelda clone that would get cheap in terms of difficulty (notably, the final boss battle).
The proper case in Lunar: Eternal Blue looks fantastic. Do you think you'd do Lunar: The Silver Star to have a matched set?
I like the idea behind this, but I also understand why sometimes games need to be made harder. If a game is too easy to beat then it becomes boring to play, but if a game is too hard then it is frustrating and not fun. Finding the right balance is hard. I beat Popful mail years ago pretty quickly without much issue, but last year I decided to boot it up again and was surprised by how hard the final boss was (I loaded up my last game save). On replay, I found the last boss to be fairly frustrating and I don't know how I managed to beat it so quickly when I first played the game (Maybe because I played it from the beginning it helped me to refine my skills to the point that the last boss wasn't all that hard). I think I have become a casual gamer over the years, thus leading to me to suck at playing non-RPG games :P .
Really? I never found the Lunar: EB or Lunar SSSC or popful mail to be all that hard. The last boss gives a very nice challenge but otherwise, not too bad. I remember beating SSSC on level 50 as a teen.
While I'm a big fan of WD and usually defend their localizations(at least they're not dry like some stuff done nowadays), I have to say the new font looks fantastic. Nice work.
Funny thing, that. The lower case font was actually already in the game and fully functional (in fact, the entire English font is included in the Japanese version). All I had to do was change the text. I think they did it that way because the lower case letters have a different baseline from the upper case ones, so they look a bit sloppy together, but it's such a ridiculous solution I have a hard time believing it.Oh my god, that's horrible. It reminds me of something similar that happened for Secret of Mana--a lowercase font is fully working for the menu text, but it just wasn't utilized. But that's just the menu text. To make an entire game in all caps is just... wow.
On a related note, I might edit the font in the future to fix the baseline issue, though I'll have to write a compressor for the wacky font format first.
Funny thing, that. The lower case font was actually already in the game and fully functional (in fact, the entire English font is included in the Japanese version). All I had to do was change the text. I think they did it that way because the lower case letters have a different baseline from the upper case ones, so they look a bit sloppy together, but it's such a ridiculous solution I have a hard time believing it.
On a related note, I might edit the font in the future to fix the baseline issue, though I'll have to write a compressor for the wacky font format first.
hey ur patch doesnt work i tried it it keeps giving me a error
Pardon my ignorance, but was it only the SEGA CD versions that were butchered? I've only played the PSX versions (I did try to play the PSP version of Silver Star, but was put off by some of the design choices).
"Emperor Ghaleon likes pixies, so he had the Vile Tribe capture us for his garden. It's beautiful and peaceful here, but it's still a prison."
"We pixies who were living in the Frontier were about to die out. But, Ghaleon helped us."
Dude ur patch for lunar is not working pls fix it I'm using my delta patch and nothing is working
I have to say I am a bit put off by all the negativity here. I don't think the localization of Lunar Eternal Blue is what you would call butchered or "j2e or 4kids" based on that catalog of edits. (Linked below) Honestly I think you are going to be hard pressed to find a team that cared as much about the source material and putting out a quality product as WD was. That being said good luck with your project, I hope it turns out to be everything you want it to be. Pointing it out I can see some of the difficulty changes pretty clearly, especially in MP costs. Magic XP to save was clearly a mistake (I would be interested in a patch that just removed this.) as WD admitted themselves in the book for Lunar EBC. The lowercase font does look very nice as well.
Hey Supper, do you want me to proper-case Lunar 1 for you? It looks like the dialogue is in plaintext ASCII. I could do this and you could work on whatever difficulty changes there were.
xdelta3: not a VCDIFF input: XD3_INVALID_INPUT
xdelta3: normally this indicates that the source file is incorrect
xdelta3: please verify the source file with sha1sum or equivalent
Please work on Exile Wicked Phenomenon next.
I'm with Supper on this one. I don't think less of people for enjoying Working Designs stuff, but looking at the original script, it's clear there was a little too much localization going on. Taking a relatively serious work and trying to add in comedic elements and pop culture references doesn't normally end well, sorry to say (and in that regard, j2e is a very apt comparison). Plus putting your own names before those of the actual developers is pretty arrogant.
Again, putting aside whether the new dialogue is "better" or "worse", it rarely represents the original material except in the broadest strokes. I'll just link you to my writeup at TCRF: https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue (https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue)
Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but it is pretty obvious you have an ax to grind for some reason. I am not really sure you would be happy with any translation intended for a mass audience. Having looked over the differences I personally am not bothered by them and I doubt you are going to find anyone beyond real diehards who want everything literaly translated with liner notes being too upset by it.
I absolutely cannot find a Lunar 2 ISO on the internet that has the same MD-5 that your patch calls for, and whenever I try to patch an ISO that doesn't have the right MD-5 in xdeltaUI, I get the error "xdelta3 not a vcdiff input xd3_invalid_input".
Is there anything that can be done? Like, can you release a patch that converts any Lunar 2 ISO to the proper MD-5 or something?
Again, putting aside whether the new dialogue is "better" or "worse", it rarely represents the original material except in the broadest strokes. I'll just link you to my writeup at TCRF: https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue (https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue)
The US version gets the point across, but suddenly not only have we lost the congruence among the different messages, we've invented new details about how this character is a guard who was assigned duties by Rainus/Lunn.
Yeah, your ISO doesn't match mine. Check the readme for information on how to verify the MD5 sum of the ISO -- if it doesn't match, you can try converting it from BIN/CUE using a different program, or using an ISO or BIN/CUE that was produced by a different ripping program.
diff -Naur bchunk-1.2.0/bchunk.c bchunk-1.2.0-msys2/bchunk.c
--- bchunk-1.2.0/bchunk.c 2004-06-29 21:42:34.000000000 +0100
+++ bchunk-1.2.0-msys2/bchunk.c 2015-07-02 17:35:51.323496400 +0100
@@ -58,7 +58,11 @@
*/
#include <inttypes.h>
-#include <netinet/in.h>
+#ifdef _WIN32
+ #include <winsock2.h>
+#else
+ #include <netinet/in.h>
+#endif
#define bswap_16(x) \
((((x) >> 8) & 0xff) | (((x) & 0xff) << 8))
@@ -279,7 +283,7 @@
printf("%2d: %s ", track->num, fname);
- if (!(f = fopen(fname, "w"))) {
+ if (!(f = fopen(fname, "wb"))) {
fprintf(stderr, " Could not fopen track file: %s\n", strerror(errno));
exit(4);
}
@@ -289,7 +293,7 @@
exit(4);
}
- reallen = (track->stopsect - track->startsect + 1) * track->bsize;
+ reallen = (track->stopsect - track->startsect) * track->bsize;
if (verbose) {
printf("\n mmc sectors %ld->%ld (%ld)", track->startsect, track->stopsect, track->stopsect - track->startsect + 1);
printf("\n mmc bytes %ld->%ld (%ld)", track->start, track->stop, track->stop - track->start + 1);
@@ -332,7 +336,7 @@
sz = track->start;
sect = track->startsect;
fl = 0;
- while ((sect <= track->stopsect) && (fread(buf, SECTLEN, 1, bf) > 0)) {
+ while ((sect < track->stopsect) && (fread(buf, SECTLEN, 1, bf) > 0)) {
if (track->audio) {
if (swabaudio) {
/* swap low and high bytes */
@@ -399,7 +403,7 @@
parse_args(argc, argv);
- if (!((binf = fopen(binfile, "r")))) {
+ if (!((binf = fopen(binfile, "rb")))) {
fprintf(stderr, "Could not open BIN %s: %s\n", binfile, strerror(errno));
return 2;
}
diff -Naur bchunk-1.2.0/Makefile bchunk-1.2.0-msys2/Makefile
--- bchunk-1.2.0/Makefile 2001-08-02 13:51:40.000000000 +0100
+++ bchunk-1.2.0-msys2/Makefile 2015-04-04 12:38:34.870112100 +0100
@@ -33,7 +33,7 @@
BITS = bchunk.o
bchunk: $(BITS)
- $(LD) $(LDFLAGS) -o bchunk $(BITS)
+ $(LD) $(LDFLAGS) -o bchunk $(BITS) -lwsock32
bchunk.o: bchunk.c
The thing is, I was acquiring these ISOs and converting them to ISO/WAV format with bchunk as the readme outlined, I tried to patch each one anyway. I still got that "xdelta3 not a vcdiff input xd3_invalid_input" error from xdeltaUI. Not sure what I was doing wrong. I was naming the ISO and WAVs how the readme outlined as well.
You realize I have already posted links to complete write ups of the differences for all the WD games in this thread? This information (http://lunar-net.com/eb/eb_diff.php) has been available for anyone who wants to read it for years. The fact that you are linking me to /another/ writeup shows you aren't actually reading what I'm posting. Why would I need a link to your own personal translation when I already have one from a more trusted source? Also I have to be honest with you, "Maou" vs. "Destroyer" is not the strongest difference you could have gone with there. There's good reason to go with destroyer vs demon king considering the connotations in English. Demon's don't have the same connotation they do in Japanese as they do to an American, largely judeo-christian believing audience.
stuff
The script rewrites are a completely different can of worms that I don't really want to get into, but having extracted and compared the dialogue from the Japanese and English versions of Eternal Blue, I can tell you that the English version changes or makes up a lot of stuff. It's not just the jokes, it's random details all over the place, even though the overall plot is the same. For example, in the Japanese version, Leo's been ordered to kill the "Demon King Lucia" specifically, whereas in the English version he's hunting merely for a nameless "destroyer". Again, putting aside whether the new dialogue is "better" or "worse", it rarely represents the original material except in the broadest strokes. I'll just link you to my writeup at TCRF: https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue (https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue)
(http://i.imgur.com/rcykLOq.png)
For anyone following along, I've been hammering away at Vay the last few days. Not sure when the patch'll be ready, because WD really did a number on this game: item price boosts, equipment nerfs, massive increases in MP costs, inns that used to cost 4g each now charging steadily rising prices... Not to mention they apparently actually added in some new dungeon gimmicks, or at least the script says that's what happens if I ever manage to get that far. I thought the Japanese version was already unpleasantly grindy, but the US version really takes the cake.
I was mostly linking my article because it focuses more on the overall differences than just straight "facts" that changed, but I didn't start this topic to argue about this, you've clearly made up your mind already, and honestly, I don't even care about Lunar very much. My interest in it is largely a product of how flabbergasted I am at the sheer enormity of the localization changes. (Can't deny I didn't read much of the article though -- sorry, but after spending weeks proofreading the entire script, I can't take much more of WD's Lunar right now!)
Oh, geez, I just grabbed the first "xdelta" I saw in the Debian repos. Turns out that that gets you version 1.1.3, and the newer versions are separate xdelta2/xdelta3 packages. Sorry, I'll update the patches in the near future to use something more modern. I'd really appreciate having your patched bchunk too, since apparently there's no other really-actually-free BIN splitter for Windows.
Thanks for taking the time to look into this so thoroughly.
Wait..what exactly happen to the LOH games? I didn't know there was something bad about those games.(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AxYbrFUktD4/Tfxo-dgnPcI/AAAAAAAAB_E/Tsf9MNs3g9U/s1600/20110612174250_0.jpg)
It's just... rough. Like it was translated without an editor.
After a crazy week where every time I thought I was done, some even more wild and inexplicable new change I had to fix popped up, I'm happy to finally release the v0 patch for Vay, as well as the v1 and v2 patches for Lunar: Eternal Blue and Popful Mail!
Vay (Sega CD) -- patch v0 (1/24/17) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/agbuib0wsrxzidm/Vay+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Lunar: Eternal Blue (Sega CD) -- patch v1 (1/24/17) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/1f0b7bs9wnnmqku/Lunar+Eternal+Blue+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v1.zip)
Popful Mail (Sega CD) -- patch v2 (1/24/17) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/bao2yprh5d6511z/Popful+Mail+Un-Worked+Design+v2.zip)
The new Eternal Blue and Popful Mail patches are unchanged in terms of content, but per the feedback in this topic, I've overhauled the patching procedure. In addition to using modern xdelta and bundling a working bchunk.exe -- big, big thanks to elmer for discovering this issue and providing the fixed binary -- I've bundled xdelta and added some .bat files that should make patching as easy as a drag-and-drop on Windows. See the "Automatic Patching" section of the readme files for details. All of this should fix the errors people have been reporting, so if you've been having patching issues, download the new versions.
Uh...what was the actor who played Alex's name? Ashley Angel?
He sounds like he just shit himself.
Magic Emeperor: Tell me Alex, did ol' Victor Ireland tell you what happened to your voice actor.
Alex: He told me enough! He told me you killed him!
Emperor reveals helmet to reveal Ashely Angel
Ashley Angel: No Alex, I am your voice actor.
Alex: That's not true, that's impossible!
Ashley Angel: Come with me Alex, join O-town!
I've beaten Vay a few years ago. The difficulty was really bullshit and the game ended up not being fun at all... the MP cost for spells really bothered me. This patch should make things more interesting :D
I always liked the 2nd to last final area music, and final battle music in Vay.
just tested lunar u did a great job this is much better then the psx version
I hope my post didn't come off as too abrasive?
I said in the start of it; I am for the project. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzwMhARbRG4)
I had no idea that the difficulty was so amplified, and in such a perfunctory way. The numbers by which certain things were raised or lowered suggest that they wanted it to be an easy, quick programming edit.
:/ Points off for laziness.
Anyhow, I'll be eager to see what these games were supposed to play like. :D
I also got Lunar 2 to work and recompiled it into a BIN/CUE with Daemon Tools and ImgBurn. It works amazingly; I love that I can save at any time I want to. Thanks for all your hard work.When's Lunar 1?Kidding on that last bit. :p
Lunar 2 froze a few hours in, right when I spoke to Ronfar for the first time. First it showed a few empty dialogue boxes then it just outright seized with a bunch of garbage text characters randomly placed on screen. Using win7 x64, Genesis Plus core via Retroarch.
Alright i got a new copy of the game. Patched it manually this time (before and after patching md5's were correct), and it still crashes at the same part. :\ Has anyone gotten past this point in the game where you speak with Ronfar?
Exile patch is out, but first let me address this:
It's not a problem with your ISO, it means I screwed up editing the script.
Wasn't Exile for TGCD that one almost impossible game because the stats of enemies later in the game scaled up ridiculously because they didn't test the game before releasing it?
Wait, is that a patch for the first Exile? Cause that game was totally fine, what everybody was asking about was Exile 2 (aka Wicked Phenomenon) ;D It was destroyed by the stat changes in a way that rendered it almost literally unplayable. And no offense either, but you're wrong about it, it's totally awesome, including (and especially) the RPG parts.
Entry b7: c02576 / c02576
atk: 47 -> 125
def: 1 -> 35
hp: 108 -> 190
exp: 35 -> 38
gold: 30 -> 40CRAPTON OF WORK DONE
Take a day off I'd say. You've been working really hard on this and you said somewhere your patience is getting thin. Don't burn yourself out man...
I forgot they butchered Alundra, that's another game that should get fix.
Thanks a lot for your hard work, Supper.
Wrecking Designs really mangled lots of games (Silhouette Mirage, Alundra, ...) and it's sad that other companies wanted to emulate their less savory practices (like ill-timed real life preaching and memes, or Atlus making all bosses in Thousand Arms as bullet sponges in the US version).
Do you think restoring the subtitles for the cutscenes in Lunar 1 is possible, assuming you did look at it before? I fear they cut the entire programming for that one.
Take a day off I'd say. You've been working really hard on this and you said somewhere your patience is getting thin. Don't burn yourself out man...
Yeah, you've done an AMAZING amount in work in a really short space of time.
I have no idea what's driving you so hard, but this is all "volunteer" work, it should be "fun". Nobody is going to fault you for taking some time off to relax.
Heck, if you never, ever, make another patch ... what you've done in the last few weeks is already a huge contribution to gaming.
Whether some folks feel that changes are needed or not, you've given the people that do the chance to see what it would have been like if WD hadn't made those changes. That's brilliant! ;D
Okay now that surprises me..that game even got it's script effed with?
I've not played all games published by Working Designs yet, but I did play Popful Mail all the way to the end, then did the same to the Japanese version, and I can safely say the difficulty of the former is retarded. It's true that the JP version is too easy, but I'd still rather play it over the localized version any day of the week.
Thank you for all your contributions, Supper. You worked hard and deserve a trophy for all your efforts. :)
I forgot they butchered Alundra, that's another game that should get fix.
popmail patch v2 is having patching problems
Sounds like a good project, but it's not accurate to pin this on Working Designs. It's highly unlikely that Working Designs just arbitrarily pulled out difficulty edits out of their ass. If you know about that part of gaming history, very often the Japanese licensers compelled the localizations for the US (and perhaps even Europe) to ramp up the difficulty as a strike against rentals. The Japanese game industry lobbyists failed to ban game rentals in the US as they did in Japan, so the difficulty screwups were an attempt to combat game rentals. Sega was particularly bad in this respect (just look at what they did to Streets of Rage 3), but not the only one. Look it up if you don't believe me.
As far as the goofy dialogue, I think it's an improvement as an English localization. If you think the original games contain no goofy humor or pop culture references, you are not very informed. But it's not funny at all if you don't get the humor or references, so might as well change things. Re-translations can go too far the other way with literal translations that make no sense, or just pretentious BS like calling General Leo "Shogun Leo", as in the patch of FFVI I slammed. Also, the difficulty in these Working Designs games was high but not unplayable. NES games were tougher. You might argue the Japanese originals were too easy, but they had more money to burn on a ton of games at the time, or more willing to, similar to how today's games are easy to the point where they have a tutorial to teach you how to move.
But as I said, these patches are still a worthy project for those interested.
「おいしい魚料理」
だれにでも かんたんにできる
とってもヘルシーな
魚料理です‥‥
Ruby:
わぁ！ ヒイロぉ
この本 ほしいよぉ！
"Delicious Fish Dishes"
These are very healthy fish dishes anyone can easily make...
Ruby:
Wow! Hirooo, I want this book!
ABDOMINAL DISCOMFORT
VOLUME 1
FERAL FLATULENCE CONTROL
Ruby:
HIRO! I THINK GRANDPA NEEDS
THIS BOOK!
But the games take place in our future or an alternate timeline of our future, so those things COULD easily apply. People never really consider that. Shigema wussed out in making the connection more obvious (apologizing for it at dinner one night in Japan), though, with the name of the first Dragonmaster in the legend. You can figure out the intent if you think about it, but the name was originally something else.
In any case, they kept doing the difficulty changes very consistently, for many years, for games licensed from many different publishers, so I doubt it was just due to their hands being contractually tied.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that translates as:
The "joke" is that Ruby loves fish, see? Not very funny, I'll grant you (though it does help set up a much later scene). Here's what the line becomes in the US version:
Now, I don't know more than the absolute rudiments of Japanese, but I can certainly tell you that there's no secret hidden cultural reference in the original text that the US version is trying to convey the spirit of here. The new joke is just there to "make it funnier". Depending on your sense of humor, maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but that's not the point. Regardless of whether it's "better" or not, it simply doesn't match the original dialogue by any stretch of the imagination, and I can tell you from having looked that the majority of the jokes in the US version are "made up" in this fashion.
@Supper:
Already found some of the Lunar text (ASCII) but having the tools shared with all the pointer work done would be really nice. There's some "fixes" to both SNES and GBA versions of Final Fantasy 4/6, even for stuff that's accurate and not even things that would fit the idea of "fixing a bad translation". But the Lunar games would be far more worthy of one such fix.
Nintendo of Europe
As far as returning games to the store, where I was from that wasn't even allowed stating from the late 8-bit era. They gave you store credit up to a couple of days after buying it, at best. After that, the game was yours forever.I'd imagine that was abusable. From what I had read of stores' return policies on receipts as a kid (yes, I was a bored kid) certain items such as games were only returnable if defective, and then only for replacement.
About Alundra. I read that one of the miners was named Jaylen supposedly in reference to Jay Leno (the char's portrait somewhat looks like him), which falls in line with what WD is known for.
Dynamic Designs, the fan translation group, takes it much further than WD ever did, stuffing tons of references to and outright rants about American politics in Shell Monsters Story, for example, in the most jarring way.
Or there was Nightwolve & Deuce's infamous line in the Xak 3 translation, where a NPC asks you if you're a republican (and tells you to stop playing the game if you're a "libtard" or however they put it). Real classy, guys.
Is it too much to ask to just be thankful for their efforts? Lame jokes or not, you would not be playing AND understanding without them...I've pretty much decided not to play their translations anymore if WildBill was involved with it in any way, so no, not thankful. I genuinely feel that he ruined Shell Monsters Story, and hurt FEDA as well, which is unfortunate as it's actually a good game. And we're not talking about "lame jokes", though he likes those (and awful speech patterns), but angry, incredibly out-of-place rants about Obamacare, the ACLU, Muslims or whatever nonsense he's riled up about at that point in time.
Out of curiosity, what are some examples of the rants you're upset about?
I didn't write them down, but off the top of my head I remember one in FEDA early on where you get into a village and a NPC says it is neutral in the ongoing war. One of your character goes into this long, grandiloquent rant about how "neutrality is cowardice" and bla bla bla which is out of character and, of course, wasn't in the original game or earlier versions of the patch, and makes no sense at all considering at this point you're on the run from your own army after getting framed, so you're not exactly taking sides any more. This was WildBill, still mad at France for not joining up the Iraq War (remember Freedom Fries, etc.)
I only briefly played the Snes Record of Lodoss War because I hated the gameplay but the treasure hunters you encounter early on are framed as "looters" and your character scolds a child for living in that immoral way, etc. etc. Didn't care too much about that one because the game wasn't much good.
In Shell Monsters Story... man, too many to narrow it down. There's stuff about Obamacare, about "useful idiots" at the ACLU, a weird tangent about primitive alien civilizations that can only destroy that sounds as if it's alluding to Islam in general (I don't recall the wording but it's very, very similar to the language used in anti-Muslim rants and doesn't really fit in the game at that point since you know very little about the enemy), and random stuff about liberals. I'm pretty sure there's at least 7-8 outright speeches or allusions in that game alone, which is beating a dead horse if I've ever seen it.
And that's just stuff I've seen or remember years later. There's plenty releases of theirs I didn't play, and I chose AGTP's Mystic Ark for obvious reasons.
Now I'm very concerned about the quality of the Sailor Moon translation that Dynamic-Designs released this year, Floating Panic. Maybe I should get back to playing it to see if there are any off-kilter jokes in it.
And do see Vic's insane defense of the changes, as quoted above (from a Gaijinworks thread about these very hacks, I might add).
Just dropping in to say that Nintendo of Europe gave us by far the more stilted, less memorable translation of Splatoon while claiming that Panel de Pon was a Yoshi game. Fuck that noise.
Ohhhhhh my god I had no idea about any of this! I knew about the plot change to Phantasy Star Gaiden of course, but... Obamacare?!
Is it bad that this just makes me want to play them more? (And maybe rehack them?) :)
In a way, I'm reminded of the former head admin on the Silent Hill Wiki and a few others who went completely batshit (https://storify.com/jasperrolls/the-silent-hill-wiki-circumcision-meltdown-of-2015),
I think the German translator for Nintendo in the nineties mentioned he thought of tons of sexual jokes while translating Secret of EvermoreEh, I think that's really common... I think of sexual jokes and pop-culture references 90% of the time I'm translating a game, but in the end you have to think in the majority of the users. Do you want to ruin their experience with some shitty joke that probably won't even be funny to most of them?
Ohhhhhh my god I had no idea about any of this! I knew about the plot change to Phantasy Star Gaiden of course, but... Obamacare?!
Is it bad that this just makes me want to play them more? (And maybe rehack them?) :)
When it comes to strict translation vs. localization, I like to bring up FF4: The After Years as an example. The majority of the game is largely translated in the very terse, literal style typical of most of S-E's low budget titles; see also Final Fantasy Dimensions for another example, which was done by the same team I'm pretty sure. However, there are a few scenes which are explicitly flashbacks to events in the original FF4, and these scenes quote the DS script. The difference in writing quality sticks out like a sore thumb.
Yet for some reason, Nintendo of Europe, Atlus, P-Cube and Level-5 still manage to have their translations very close to the original meaning without conflicting with it, replacing it with subpar writing, or making stuff up against the intentions of the original writers.
I'd imagine that was abusable. From what I had read of stores' return policies on receipts as a kid (yes, I was a bored kid) certain items such as games were only returnable if defective, and then only for replacement.
Return a used game as "defective" to get a new copy and then return the new copy.
Although I'm sure stores have gotten wise to that, such as I think Target does track returns.
The bigger point is that you can't please everyone, and you will usually fail when you try.
Thing is, the DS version of Final Fantasy IV was faithful. It's a really good example of how a localisation should be like, because the editing passes to make it more "natural sounding" actually compliment the original script and go with harmony with it, rather than clashing with it and attempting to replace it. Having an enjoyable nicely written English script that sounds like the game was designed around it, is not mutually exclusive with keeping as much as possible of the text intact within what grammar and regulations allow for.
Nothing made up, no characterization changed for no reason, little to no real life references or anything being the translator going "I'm here, notice me", and most importantly no disdain to the original work and attempts to "fix its horrible writing" with "MY writing that's probably better than this bland shit (my scriptwriter qualifications? those moving pixels following the bad writing? unimportant details!)".
It's funny you're praising Slattery's translations (in fact, it's refreshing, considering I really enjoyed them) considering how they were called "bland" and "overly literal" compared to their Woolsey's rushed counterparts. Yes, that elaborate prose was a "literal", word-by-word translation of a Japanese Super Famicom game's script, if some are to be believed. It almost feels like "blandness" isn't the concern, but staying close to the original is a net negative that warrants offense.
Really cool, that Alundra may be coming next. Are you taking suggestions for non-WD stuff too? Monster World III got similar changes regarding difficulty when it was ported as Wonder Boy in Monster World:
https://tcrf.net/Wonder_Boy_in_Monster_World#Japan_to_US.2FPAL
It's one of MD/GEN best pieces yet not many people complain, but the changes, even if more reasonable, were not really for the best, as usual.
(Forgive me for taking the liberty!)
I'm of the opinion they were the developers applying a last-minute layer of polish to unfinished parts of the game, rather than arbitrary decisions by publishers and translationcensorseditors more divorced from the development process.
NoE changing Red Armor's price in Terranigma from 6666 (JP) to 6800 (EU)
I'd love some more Working Designs to be restored before that though (despite that I have my own wishlist of games mangled in their balancing by their localizations I'd love to see fixed, like Thousand Arms, Brain Lord, Spike McFang
even the first Monster Land game...)
I signed up for these forums just to thank you, Supper. It's great that we can experience these classics closer to their original vision while still experiencing what it was like when released. I play retro games to experience the past, and I understand Japanese enough to play the originals if I wanted the unadulterated vision, but the thing keeping me from enjoying these games was always the punishing difficulty that studios like Konami added to their games to combat the rental market. I'll finally get to beat that wood golem in Popful Mail :thumbsup:
I'm not going to defend WD's work because standards change with time, but probably like many gamers in the early 90s they were my first experience with anime style. Millions played Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest but WD didn't rebrand the art or soften the image for a Western audience. I look a them like Turner Entertainment in the 80s when they were recolorizing old movies. It's not the ideal way to watch those classics, but for millions it was their first experience. We've moved on and do better but I like revisiting the past to see the foundation everything was built on.
Really cool, that Alundra may be coming next. Are you taking suggestions for non-WD stuff too? Monster World III got similar changes regarding difficulty when it was ported as Wonder Boy in Monster World:
https://tcrf.net/Wonder_Boy_in_Monster_World#Japan_to_US.2FPAL
It's one of MD/GEN best pieces yet not many people complain, but the changes, even if more reasonable, were not really for the best, as usual.
(Forgive me for taking the liberty!)
I'm at the bar and the game froze when Ronfar is trying to bet me at a game of dice in ur lunar eternal blue patch
I'd love some more Working Designs to be restored before that though (despite that I have my own wishlist of games mangled in their balancing by their localizations I'd love to see fixed, like Thousand Arms, Brain Lord, Spike McFang, even the first Monster Land game...)
Voice redubs are doable considering this was amateur level voice acting back in the day, so I think anyone can pull that off if needed.
If the author is open to it, I'll be happy to contribute VA work - have done so before at a very private level and for work (training videos).
@Piotyr - It's me, Tiny! I heard you were messaging me on my old skype, I no longer use that since I'm in another company! Hope you see this since it was your post that spurred me to finally stop lurking and sign up (also because VA work :P)
I've pretty much decided not to play their translations anymore if WildBill was involved with it in any way, so no, not thankful.
Remembering they did Burning Heroes...
did they at least add a SNICKERS AURA item anywhere? ;D
(you'd have to be a pretty old and hardcore member to get that, I suppose)
and also it's the light that goku gives off in dragon ball z when he's about to fight and he turns all yellow and rocks float around him and he says uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa for five minutes and then that's when I say YEAH THAT'S GOKU NOW HE'S GONNA KICK SOME ASS NOW CAUSE OF HIS AURA and then I start jumping on my bed and throwing raisinets everywhere cause I love goku cause he can kick ass like that one time where that one alien guy almost killed him but then he said uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa no wait that was when he was almost killed what he really said was uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa and then he made an AURA and then the episode ended
:(
but on the next episode he still had an AURA and rocks were floating and I was like YEAH YEAH and then he shot a beam at the alien guy and he said uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa and then the alien guy was all like OH SHIT and then the episode ended
:(
but on the next episode goku was all like uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa cause of his AURA and then his beam hit the alien guy and he said uwaaaaaaaaaaaaa cause he got hit cause goku's beam was stronger cause of his AURA and then he died and I was all like YEAH YEAH TAKE THAT YOU ALIEN CAUSE GOKU'S THE MAN CAUSE HE KICKED YOUR ASS AND YOU'RE DEAD YOU SON OF A BITCH and then my mommy came in and spanked me so then I threw my raisinets at her and she spanked me again and took away my pokemon cards and it really SUCKS cause I beat up a lot of kids to get that deck and I could kick your ass at pokemon yeah YEAH cause pokemon rules I love koffing the best cause he's got a neat voice cause in the cartoon he says KOFFING and I laugh a lot and fall off my bed and kick and scream and break all my toys until my mommy spanks me cause koffing is so FUCKING funny when he says things and I have all the pokemon games even the stupid picture game but it got broke once when I didn't get my dragon ball z game cause I was at walmart and I said I WANT A DRAGON BALL Z GAME and my mommy said NO MAYBE NEXT TIME and then I stepped on her foot and said NOW BITCH and then she took me outside and spanked me and I was pissed off and I would have kicked her ass but I don't have an AURA so I told her I wished I was goku cause then she would buy me stuff cause I would make rocks float and I would fuck up her car like that and then my mommy's face turned red and she looked so dumb HA HA HA and she drove home and broke my pokemon game but I don't care cause it was the picture game the stupid bitch and then she came back to walmart cause she forgot to pick me up but it's okay since I bought a snickers with the change I found in the parking lot and I was like YEAH I LOVE SNICKERS YEAH YEAH and I tore it into pieces and threw it up in the air and said YEAH I'VE GOT A SNICKERS AURA but there weren't any rocks floating like what goku does so I took another snickers when no one was looking and was gonna use that too but then the first one was gone so I was like FUCK and then my mommy came and she had a goku action figure and said I'M SORRY I GOT UPSET and then I threw my snickers at her FACE.
Remembering they did Burning Heroes...
did they at least add a SNICKERS AURA item anywhere? ;D
(you'd have to be a pretty old and hardcore member to get that, I suppose)
Hey Supper, any chance you'd fix Alundra's spanish PAL version?
Sure, it should be easy enough. I'll take a look at it (and the Italian version too, I guess) when I get a chance.
I don't know if you've considered or looked into it, but a proportional font with kerning would fix the font issues. Ultimately a fixed width font isn't going to be perfect or without some issue.
Not a bad thought, and the way the game buffers text would be fairly conducive to a VWF hack, but if it's just going to be the same old Working Designs script then it's not really worth the effort to me. Would be great for a proper retranslation project, though.
That's a good point. I'm of the opinion that if you're going to go through the trouble of retranslating a game, you might as well go all out. That way there's no question as to what the better translation is.
Supper, before you consider doing any further work on fixing up the Lunar font, take a look at the font they used for Grandia's English PS1 version. It's practically the same, but with the kerning issues fixed. I'll see if I can rip it directly from that version in native resolution without scaling.
Did you find the smaller 8x8 font used in the battle screen for names? I looked in the iso and couldn't find it, unlike the English/JP sets. And what was up with the removed subtitles in the animated cutscenes?
Also, you mentioned modifying the audio is possible in the Sega-CD Lunar games, but how? Information on modding old-school audio isn't exactly abundant online.
- ! ? & . , are all going to need to be raised up by one pixel now, as is ¥ if you feel like it.
- You didn't touch the numbers. They'll need to be raised up to meet the lowercase letters' baselines as well.
- Your capital O looks funny at the bottom, like it's got a sharper edge than other letters. Compare it to the uppercase Q, for example. I made a mockup on what I think you should do with it, with the Q next to the O to compare.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ef5rXEC.png)
Gonna try to finish up with the script corrections tonight (15 maps to go), then fix the handful of remaining gameplay/graphics changes (turns out LunarNET knew a couple things I didn't). After that I'll do a quick test run through the game, and hopefully then it'll be good to go.Sounds great, I'm excited! :) Will you be implementing the new font in Lunar 2 as well?
Sounds great, I'm excited! :) Will you be implementing the new font in Lunar 2 as well?
I didn't know about rental games being banned in Japan, though -- that's really nuts. Seems like Japanese law is way too corporate-friendly, at least when it comes to games.
Have you been already noticed by senpai...?
It's funny how much hate torrent is coming your way from there about being a purist weaboo not understanding the unreachable secrets of the localisation craft, despite the patches still not including translation changes, or Vic Ireland himself admitting that Exile 2 and Lunar 2's balance changes were indeed a mistake, among other similar less direct comments explaining why they had to do these changes, not that they were good or improvements in any way (about Silhouette Mirage, Popful Mail, and other games).
So if you haven't heard the story by now, Working Designs was an American game publisher in the '90s that specialized in licensing niche Japanese games, totally rewriting their scripts to insert crude jokes and pop culture references, completely wrecking their difficulty by jacking up all the enemies' stats and adding other cheap impediments, then releasing them in the US. (If you like the sound of that, these patches probably aren't for you.)
Most of the games they put out are sufficiently esoteric that no one's interested in doing a retranslation, so often, these butchered versions are the only way to play the games in English. That seemed like a real shame to me, so lately I've been working on this little project to restore the gameplay from the Japanese versions of these games. Since I'm not a translator, I can't do anything about the made-up dialogue, but I'm aiming to at least get the difficulty back to what it was intended to be (and for Lunar, to get the script in lower case!).
Other changes in the US version (e.g. the new title screen music, using C instead of Start to open the menu, the horrible horrible made-up script) have been kept.
This is a patch that fixes many issues introduced in the US version of the Sega CD game Lunar: Eternal Blue by its publisher, Working Designs. As you're probably aware if you're reading this, the US release of the game was heavily bastardized;
...
* The opening cutscene, which was mildly censored for the US version, has been replaced with its Japanese version. This has the not-unpleasant side effect of removing the obnoxious Working Designs credits. (They're still in the ending.)(Ed: Cheering about removing the original localizers/voice actors credits from the game is kind of disrespectful. Given the tone about the removal in the opening it is ambiguous if Supper's comment about the ending credits is and admission to assure the reader that credit is given at the end, or disappointment at not being able to remove it at the end.)
My main point here is that the rewritten script might be subjectively "better" or "worse" than the original, depending on your tastes, but it's just that -- rewritten. It's not presenting the Japanese more effectively, it's making up something new. And do see Vic's insane defense of the changes, as quoted above (from a Gaijinworks thread about these very hacks, I might add).
My localization philosophy has been evolving over the last 25 years! You have to remember, when I started, there were no real guidelines - you had pretty much direct translations, or...nothing. Localizing content the way I did it was pretty revolutionary, and while it was over-the-top initially (again, nothing to use as a guide in the beginning), it's evolved over time. That said, almost everyone else doing Jrpgs headed my direction to varying degrees once I laid it all down and we started releasing games localized in a very different way from what was out back then. The rep for Game Arts said it best one of the times he was visiting. He said, "For such a small company, you cast a long shadow."
LUNAR PSX translations were based on the SEGA CD version to a point. LUNAR 2 was supposed to be Zach writing it, but I ended up re-writing quite a bit of what he did, because he had just broken up with one of the other employees at WD and wrote the female characters (most notably Jessica) like total bitches and sex objects, which was wildly inappropriate. Then I had to finish what was left (while recording in the studio, too), because when the text was supposed to be done, he wasn't even close, making excuses about computer crashes, etc that were total BS. It's also the reason Nall is talking about stuff that isn't there in the PSX version of LUNAR 2 in the cave. That was copied verbatim from the SEGA CD version by Zach and missed in the rush to rewrite/finish the text by me. It was really a terrible last 1/4 of that project.
If anyone is interested in comparing the JP/EN scripts for themself, I can upload my dialogue extraction tools.
Most of the patches works on Wii-Mednafen and Genesis GX Plus (Genesis Emulator for Wii)
The only problem I have is Lunar Eternal Blue, in the crystal cutscene, when the screen fades to black and shows the moon, it does some strange loop and it desyncs through the whole cutscene
this doesn't happen on Fusion
In case anyone missed my earlier post, you'll notice I haven't changed the cutscene subtitles (they're still in all caps, or missing entirely in voiced scenes). Those are a major headache to edit, so I haven't bothered with them yet. I may add them in a later version of the patch.
-Snip-
Being hearing impaired, lack of subtitles in voiced scenes annoy the heck out of me too. I don't know how you're gonna add them in though.
Jesus, did really have to white knight Victor like that? *Some* of the things they did were great *at the time*, the rest have aged like milk in the sun.
If he wants to be critical of the quality of the games, he's not wrong too. A lot of the stuff Wrecking Designs did is objectively bad, thus them earning the name.
Heck that quote from Victor even says when they started it was a new thing and not everything they did was the right thing to do.
Also, Battletoads was a Rare (based in the UK) production.
It's possible to be appreciative and critical of someone at the same time.
Oo..there was a female half nude monster in the SegaCD version of Lunar 1? Just how different was this game compared to the remakes!?
The blatant white knighting is what bothers me the most though, as if Ireland is going to spontaneously burst into tears because somebody harshly criticized his work.
TL;DR: Yeah I understand why you might not like the translation 20 years later but that doesn't mean you need to be an asshole about it.Once you put something up for sale you lose any right to have your feelings protected in this sort of thing.
You know, balance changes are such an interesting topic to me in general when comparing regional versions of games. I've sometimes had suggestions made about (mostly very minor) balance changes for things I've worked on professionally, though rarely did anything make it in. When I worked on Bunny Must Die's official English PC release, though, it was really interesting because I was handed a version with way different balance and various changes compared to the version people knew to begin with, even before the localization process begin.
I wonder how many times stuff like that ended up being a case of that? It certainly has been the case many times, for games that were basically "further finished" for their overseas releases. I find it fascinating.
Once you put something up for sale you lose any right to have your feelings protected in this sort of thing.
People paid for Lunar and got fart jokes, we are allowed to call it what it is, a bastardization. If this was a fan translation I could see how you would want us to be more respectful since it was done using someones free time but this was his job. I don't care if it was one of the first, I don't care if it paved the way for the future, in the end it is a bad translation and I will gladly call it like I see it.
I cut him some slack but I don't cut his work the same slack.
Since you aren't catching the nuiance of what I have been trying to say, here is a TL;DR just for you
TL;DR: Yeah I understand why you might not like the translation 20 years later but that doesn't mean you need to be an asshole about it.
(Or I dunno DantzB, maybe you think removing stuff like credits from someone's work is cool or something?)
Tl;dr, you're butthurt over something 99%, that even give a shit about this in the first place, thinks is bad. Shitty localization is shitty localization. Mario 2 = good localization, Yakuza 3 = shitty, and various games in between with varying offences.
And about the credits, I think it's a little funky but who the hell really cares (besides you?) People who've already played Lunar are these patches main audience and I bet most don't even give a shit in the first place.
No need to get rude.
Also Mario 2 is more of a remake than a localization, just like the wonderboy in monster land localization that change all the characters. Hell they ported Mario 2 back to japan as "Mario USA", not many people mention that when flaunting their knowledge of Doki Doki Panic :P.
Being hearing impaired, lack of subtitles in voiced scenes annoy the heck out of me too. I don't know how you're gonna add them in though.
When it comes to Lunar... I know a lot of people prefer TSS over SSSC, but I admittedly know I'd personally really love to see the Complete versions get proper treatment too. I quite like the Sega CD games, but they aren't the ones that got me into the series originally.
You know, balance changes are such an interesting topic to me in general when comparing regional versions of games. I've sometimes had suggestions made about (mostly very minor) balance changes for things I've worked on professionally, though rarely did anything make it in. When I worked on Bunny Must Die's official English PC release, though, it was really interesting because I was handed a version with way different balance and various changes compared to the version people knew to begin with, even before the localization process begin.
I wonder how many times stuff like that ended up being a case of that? It certainly has been the case many times, for games that were basically "further finished" for their overseas releases. I find it fascinating.
Edit: vvv Sort of! The PS4 version of Bunny Must Die had a lot of the changes that had been made in the version I worked on, including the Arranged Soundtrack I personally got approval for and directed! Thing is, it also had way, way more changes, too, and it didn't use the English translation I'd worked on at all, opting for a brand-new one instead that has... a much different angle to it.
Wait you seriously are not aware of this? Yeah game rentals are still illegal in Japan. Here is an article on it. (http://kotaku.com/5914749/why-you-cant-rent-games-in-japan)
You were aware that it was a standard industry practice for the US releases of games to be altered to be harder right? One infamous example is Battletoads, but the entire video game industry did this at the time. If you weren't aware that might explain why you think this is a WD thing. Here is a post on NeoGAF all about it. (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=964030)
He is getting a "hate torrent" not for the patch itself it is what he says in his opening, notes and other posts. If he was respectful to the original producer of the translation (You know the people who put their money where their mouth is and put in the work to bring the games over and do the voice acting in a time when that was a brand new thing.) no one would complain. As the old wisdom states: "Don't start none, won't be none."
Personally I actually like the patches themselves. The sole problem is Supper's attitude coupled with what seems to be a lack of knowledge of the history of the industry at this time. I can also honestly see wanting to go back and do a more literal translation too, but you can't forget this game is over 20 years old and that the industry was different then. Shitting all over a team made up of enthusiasts who poured their soul into bringing over games they wanted to see in the US, anime games from before Pokemon made anime mainstream in the US, because they don't meet your standards 20 years later is not cool.
The funny thing is, again, Victor Ireland is not some cloistered figure in some unassailable corporate ivory tower. He just has a small team and is not hard to contact. If Supper were actually respectful he would probably be getting heartfelt support from the original translator. He could actually get some answers to his questions but since he is so focused on hating them it is never going to happen.
If the OP wasn't enough here are a few other egregious entries from the patch notes.
Incidentally the Vay patch notes are fine. I can't find anything to complain about. I imagine Supper got more diplomatic after realizing he was upsetting a lot of people.
For anyone who wants some context you can read the thread yourself. (http://www.gaijinworks.com/interact/showthread.php?1371-Popful-Mail-and-Lunar-II-get-de-WD-d/page5) (He is talking about Lunar being in our future btw, not Popful Mail.) Victor is pretty frank about the changes and why they occured. Probably the most relevant quote.
But yes, please keep insulting him by taking one quote out of a full conversation and calling him insane. That will make things better.
Or for those who do not read Japanese the Lunar changes can be found below.
Lunar The Silver Star English<>Japanese differences Compilation (http://lunar-net.com/tss/tss_diff.php)
Lunar Eternal Blue English<>Japanese differences Compilation (http://lunar-net.com/eb/eb_diff.php)
Lunar Silver Star Story Complete English<>Japanese differences Compilation (http://lunar-net.com/sssc/sss_diff.php)
Lunar2 Eternal Blue Complete English<>Japanese differences Compilation (http://lunar-net.com/ebc/ebc_diff.php)
Well then if you are going to be hateful you should not be surprised when you deservedly get hate back in kind.
He is getting a "hate torrent" not for the patch itself it is what he says in his opening, notes and other posts.
You have to understand when you are inflammatory about something a lot of people like a lot you are going to attract negativity.
over something 99%, that even give a shit about this in the first place, thinks is bad. Shitty localization is shitty localization.
It's unreal how some people rationalize attacking perfect strangers for making stuff they don't like, moreso when the amount of work involved is that important and often going thankless at best. If you're irritated by this so much, just move on rather than making the day worse for everyone involved.
You're going quite a bit out of your way to interpret what I said as heinously as possible. When I expressed approval of "removing the obnoxious Working Designs credits", I was referring to the fact that unlike every other game publishing company I've ever seen, Working Designs insisted on listing their own staff in the most prominent positions at the very top of the credits, displacing the credits for the game's actual directors, producers and so on. As I explicitly stated, removing those credits was a side effect of copying over the cutscene from the Japanese version rather than some malignant action on my part. I have absolutely no desire to withhold credit from anyone involved in the production of the game, and Working Designs certainly did. If those had been the only credits in the game, I would have taken more care to leave them in, but the fact is that the game has no less than two other staff roll sequences in which Working Designs receives full credit.
Despite your assertions to the contrary, I do, in fact, hold a great deal of respect -- of a kind -- for Working Designs and Victor Ireland. The guy went to Japan, made contacts, hashed out licensing deals, and made all the arrangements to have these games translated, dubbed, and reprogrammed for release in the US. That takes a level of effort and organization far beyond anything I could ever manage, and in that respect he's an admirable figure. The problem is that all that effort ultimately went into creating gag translations that fundamentally misrepresent the original games. "Enthusiasm" and "it was 20 years ago" are not excuses for ruining someone else's creation, and I know of no other company that engaged in the kind of egocentric, wholesale script replacement that Working Designs did. The Working Designs rewrites are incredibly disrespectful to the authors of the original works, and I will not apologize for rightfully disparaging them.
Increasing games' difficulty in the West, though it certainly happened, was hardly "standard industry practice" -- there are hundreds of examples of contemporary games that were left untouched or even made easier for international release (especially in the 32-bit era and beyond -- Final Fantasy VII and VIII didn't have their difficulty cranked up in the US, but Alundra and Silhouette Mirage sure did!). But putting that aside, I do understand that Working Designs had a substantial commercial motive: to make money, they needed to reduce rentals and sell strategy guides, and making the games harder was an excellent way of facilitating those goals. Now, I hardly think Vic was using the money to line his own pockets -- the point was to keep the company solvent and able to release more games. Unfortunately, that does nothing to mitigate the fact that the increased difficulty of the games makes them -- to my tastes -- less enjoyable than the originals, which is why I'm making these patches in the first place.
My point with all this is that Working Designs was not simply "following the crowd", as you would have me believe. Their releases of games pervert the originals in a unique and disgusting way far beyond any of their contemporaries, and they deserve all the criticism they get for doing so. It's great that they brought the games to the US at a time when no one else would, but it's absolutely appalling how they did it. If Victor Ireland's come to acknowledge that, great! (From what people are saying about Gaijinworks and Summon Night, it doesn't sound like it, though.) But frankly, I don't have anything to ask him that he hasn't already made crystal-clear.
Furluge.
Do. you. have. anything. positive. to. contribute. to. the. discussion? :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:
Just over a month after Eternal Blue, The Silver Star is ready to roll.
Still having problems making the Popful Mail patch work. Can anyone verify that they've got it working? And if so, what version of ISO was being used? And what are its hashes or other identifying characteristics?
As to other games removing credits, I recall Breath of Fire 1 (the SNES version) somehow managing to fill the credits sequence with localization credits, leaving the original developers to a "all Capcom Japan staff" credit or something.
Or is my memory wrong?
Supper, it seems the Grandia font is compressed in the ISO.
I'll see if I can extract it from RAM, or at least screenshoot an ascii test at native resolution.
But you going ahead with the release is alright, because the difference is barely noticeable - in fact your own fixed font is better imo.
Having the de/recompression tools for Lunar 2 would be lovely too :)
Obviously I don't think you and I are going to come to any sort of agreement. I mean I could pull up other examples of US releases being made harder or other examples or comments from other translators about what goes into translating something comedic from Japanese to English, but that obviously isn't going to sway you as you're pretty set on hating WD. I would implore you to revise your word choices vs the inflammatory route you've gone with. It's going to be better in the long run. Even if that's what you personally thing a more diplomatic face is what you should have on your posts and notes. If you think I'm taking things the wrong way, that's just how it can look to a stranger, reading your text, who has never met you before.
If I jumped every time a light went off around here, I'd end up talking to myself :-\
By the way Supper, I tested on GensPlus GX on a Wii...erm...the music of cutscenes is not starting at the appropriate place. It is starting, I'd estimate, 1-2 seconds into the playback of the tracks...
Something to do with your .cue file I think...? Fuzzy on the tech.
Still having problems making the Popful Mail patch work. Can anyone verify that they've got it working? And if so, what version of ISO was being used? And what are its hashes or other identifying characteristics?
Edit, The ISO I'm generating with my copy of the game is not working with this patch. So thinking the one needed is different.
Thanks for reporting this -- I did discover an issue with the CUE file that made the intro music go out of sync (forgot the pregap on audio track 2). However, that doesn't sound exactly the same as the problem you're having. Before I update the patch, could you possibly test with this CUE file (http://www.mediafire.com/file/8z73ruuw7ayag6l/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test1.cue) to see if it fixes everything? If that one is still buggy, try this one (http://www.mediafire.com/file/iw0o1do4ujabmio/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test2.cue).
Test 1: Identical to previous patch used, still starting 1-2 seconds late...or it seems like the music is starting early during "Fighting Through The Darkness" (the horn blast on the A minor chord, after the triplet on the snare drum, is supposed to sync with the lightning strike somehow), and then not starting until it's 1-2 seconds into the intro music ("In the sleepy village of Burg"...it's like, Tangerine Dream synth, with toms, and a temple chime, or something, at the end of every measure).
Test 2: No music at all. None of the redbook will load with that one.
For your info, I am loading it off of a SanDisk USB Flash drive...were you expecting an SD card?
My SD card only has 2gb on it...no room for CD games. They both load other games just fine.
How do I verify the version of a CD game? I am using a Bin/Cue rip...but I don't know if it's the one you're using.
Sorry for wasting your time. :(
Use a CRC/SHA hash calculator utility and check the value you get against the ones on redump.org
How do I verify the version of a CD game? I am using a Bin/Cue rip...but I don't know if it's the one you're using.
Sorry for wasting your time. :(
498,555,792 bytes in Size.
498,556,928 bytes in Size on disk.
...I don't know the difference between the two and they are the same number of figures so here?
Size on disk is how much space your file takes on your disk due to how it is formatted. Hard drive sectors are organized into clusters and only one file can occupy a cluster though a file may be in multiple clusters. Any space left over in the cluster is wasted. For example ntfs has 4kb clusters by default so a 1kb file takes up 4kb on the disk.
Grateful for you doing this, but the audio is off on real hardware, like the rips of yore...
Ugh. Well, thanks for trying it, anyway. Guess I'm going to have to set up RetroArch and test this on GPGX, but if you don't mind risking a couple of coasters, you can try using these CUE sheets in the meantime:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/9u8aa1fa9b9g9at/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test4.cue (http://www.mediafire.com/file/9u8aa1fa9b9g9at/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test4.cue)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/rneko6xqi53kgv7/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test5.cue (http://www.mediafire.com/file/rneko6xqi53kgv7/LunarTheSilverStarUnWorked_test5.cue)
These are my best guesses at a fix after poring over the CUE specifications. The CUE file currently included with the patch expects a physical pregap to be baked into the WAV files, which is not the case when a verified BIN is patched. Further muddying the issue, many emulators don't interpret the CUE correctly and will work fine despite this problem. I've added PREGAP commands to the CUE files above in the hope it'll sort everything out; for what little it's worth, these do work right in Fusion and Gens.
Meanwhile, I've fixed quite a lot of stuff I missed in Eternal Blue, and I'm currently doing a test run through the new revision. I'll post the updated patch once I'm done.
Test 4 worked for me sound-wise, but now all the letters are back in caps lock. :| Um...
Weird. Working as intended on my end.
...You say that clusters cannot be shared by more than one different file, but a file will take up as many clusters as it needs to to occupy the hard drive space it requires...and sometimes clusters are just not completely used by the number of bytes in the file, and part of them is empty, but still counted against total hard drive space?
...I think I followed you?
Just in case you're still interested in that Grandia font, here it is extracted from the RAM.
Dimensions 8x15, and it's misaligned this way in memory.
This is the US version. The PAL version font reused half-width katakana for accentuated characters.Spoiler:(http://i.imgur.com/iNKfsn8.png)
Awesome, I will give it a go. It is also an issue with Popful Mail and Vay.
February 23, 2017, 05:50:36 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Test 4 works perfectly. At least for the opening and bgm. Thanks
Test 4 worked for me sound-wise, but now all the letters are back in caps lock. :| Um...
I did something wrong...deleted some file I wasn't supposed to I'll wager
I've been kind of out of it lately :/
Okay, great! I'll fix the other games and get new versions of the patches up ASAP. Thanks a ton for testing on hardware, and let me know if you run into any more issues.
Awesome, no problem with testing it on my end. Looking forward to the fixed cue sheets for Popful Mail and Vay. Plan to play through Popful Mail as soon as it is posted and I get it burned to disc. Thanks again!
February 24, 2017, 06:14:26 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Started a new game on Lunar 2 and the audio is way out of sync during the opening. Think the original US opening will do, but your call.
I'll put up the updated patch ZIPs later, but here are the other updated CUEs if you want to go ahead and try them:
Popful Mail (http://www.mediafire.com/file/93om59251taacqa/PopfulMailUnWorked.cue)
Vay (http://www.mediafire.com/file/z4cbbo3vxlvdnbx/VayUnWorked.cue)
If anyone cares about the PCECD patches, they appear to have correct CUEs already.
The issue with the Eternal Blue opening is more serious. That game doesn't use CD audio for anything except the ending credits, so it can't be a CUE issue, and everything syncs properly in Fusion. It sounds like this is some hardware quirk that older emulators aren't handling correctly, which means it'll probably be hard to fix.
I've made an alternate version of the patch that uses the US intro (http://www.mediafire.com/file/7ex2slihhgm41hn/Lunar+Eternal+Blue+SCD+Un-Worked+Design+v3+%28with+US+intro%29.zip) that you can try. If that still doesn't work right, then we really have a problem.
The issue is still present with the US intro. The audio doesn't get as out of sync during the first part and the credits are perfect, but the last part goes way out of sync. I also tried it on a Model 1 Sega CD and a Model 2 Sega CD, just to make sure it wasn't a hardware issue. Can't believe the Model 1 is nearing 25 years old.
Popful Mail and Vay's audio is now working perfectly, thanks. I also have a PC Engine Duo-R and will test out Exile 1&2
February 24, 2017, 11:10:45 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Exile 1&2 Un-Worked, working as intended. Audio and all.
Yep, still out of sync. I am grateful for these patches though, nonetheless. I have been looking to replay these games, and these make for the perfect opportunity to do so. Thanks again.
Thanks so much for these patches, Supper. I, more than anyone, appreciate proper caps in games. :beer: And now I finally have it in the Lunar duo.
Meanwhile, I've somehow found myself playing Magic Knight Rayearth for the last few hours. Well, less "playing" and more "listening to", because this game sure loves to talk...
I did an awful lot of work on Rayearth over the course of 2 years, including writing software to generate lip flap movements from recorded audio dialog, a map editor to remove extra sprites that caused slowdown, tools to replace audio in the Cinepak movies without recompressing the video (they lost the source video...), and to replace the logo video in the middle with the English language logo, command line tools to generate bitmaps of text place names, to squash them to fit in the allowed number of pixels, and then convert to 16 colors and insert back in the binary, and many, many other things. I think it was one of the best games Sega made for the Saturn, and I suspect that if I didn't keep pushing it, Victor would have dropped it.
Maybe you find this quote interesting:
Found a spillover issue with Lunar 1. I can't provide a screenshot, but I can provide text.
"Gosh, if you become like
Dyne, I'll want to marry you!
Dragonmasters are so hot!"
The exclamation mark of "you!" spills out of the text box. Maybe change "want to" to "wanna"? I'll report more as I come across them. :)
Also, the loading screen uses the old font, albeit in proper case. Lastly, I'm not sure if the question mark and exclamation mark were moved up to the same baseline as the period, comma, and other letters, but that's less of an issue.
i hate to complain but the lunar silver star and lunar eternal blue arent working pls fix these errors i was enjoying your update on your last patch keep up the good work
when i was patching both lunar 1 and 2 with ppfv3 then i used the epsxe emulator it says error recompile block to large
I did patch the sega cd versions with the ppfv3 I didn't know I used the wrong patching utility
Last time I checked, ePSXe was a PlayStation emulator...?
Last time I checked, ePSXe was a PlayStation emulator...?Yet, well known one. And it doesn't play games from any other system, including SegaCD.
I did patch the sega cd versions with the ppfv3 I didn't know I used the wrong patching utility
Hey, Supper, the line about Lucia calling off the enemies in the Blue Spire is used. It's if you try to grind past level 7 in the Blue Spire. https://lparchive.org/Lunar-Eternal-Blue/Update%2004/ Check it out there.
Supper, Thank You for the patches! Very cool of you!
i did what u told me i put the lunar 2 into the iso patch and i use fusion then i saw the main menu of lunar eternal blue as soon as i hit start i got a black screen so just to make sure i wanted to try again so i wont get the black screen again i used the genesis sega cd emulator only this time it went up to the cut scenes of the beginning of the game then when the cut scene was over i got a black screen again can u pls send me your version 2 patch pls im dying to play lunar 2 Thainferno305@yahoo.com keep up the good work i hope u can fix your version 3 patch
I really like this project. :thumbsup:
Looks like Working Designs released quite a lot of games so you still have work to do :D Keep it up.
thanks so much for the patch for popful mail i tried playing the original and it kicked my ace i almost gave up until i came across this patch you made, now its like one of my favorite games :thumbsup:
Thanks so much! I'm impressed by the number of games you've covered already, fantastic stuff.
Congratulations once again, particularly for Magic Knight Rayearth as the first SS game to get the treatment. Is your patch compatible with the "undubbed version" patch which seems to exist out there?
I wonder if will ever see the rest of the Cosmic Fantasy series in english? It seems kind of pointless just playing part II, and will never know the rest of the story.
Supper, you mentioned rebuilding tools for ISOs, is it ImgBurn or regular CD burning stuff by any chance if you want to replace stuff? Wouldn't CD sectors pose some problem especially for audio?
Oh, to be fair, bad US cover arts were commonplace in the nineties. And they're not without their B-movie charm. :laugh:Spoiler:(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8a/bc/6f/8abc6fbdb62353e94be1191ed3e43d8c.jpg)
(http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/ys/ys3covergenesis.jpg)
(http://image.jeuxvideo.com/images/ps/b/o/bof3ps0f.jpg)
Speaking of undubs, having the translations for Silhouette Mirage, Grandia and both Lunar games ported to their superior Sega Saturn ports would be nice too. I tried with Grandia but the font being compressed in the disc (and probably not including the ASCII set) put a swift end to whatever plans I might have had.
It's also interesting how games from back then used standard Mac computer fonts, like Chicago, but the Lunar PSX games used Times New Roman. If you figure out how to change the font, please share any info you can find out, as well as your hacking notes so far (which must be a real treasure trove for anyone wanting to prepare balance mods for these games).
About Arc the Lad 1 :
1) Portraits are better in the japanese version , WD changed them to look more like Arc the Lad II:
USA:
Japan:
2) WD also removed some speeches (when the characters are moving in battle without doing any other action) that were in the Japanese version ...
I never knew that Working Designs messed up Arc the Lad like that.
Another PSX Working Designs game that needs to be fixed up is Silhouette Mirage, here's all the stuff they changed: https://tcrf.net/Silhouette_Mirage_(PlayStation)
Here's two screenshots from the Japanese version to help you:
There supposed to be religious references.
The rabbit merchant is supposed to smoke.
I wonder what changes they did to the PSX Lunar games that need to fix?
The problem with "un-working" stuff such as Silhouette Mirage, the 32-bits Lunars or Grandia (not WD, this one, but still) is that it would be a [monumental] wasted effort for many people since the PS versions are way worse than the original SS versions. In this day an age, nobody wants to play downgraded versions -- most fans are well aware of the subject, and will most likely ignore any patch for the PS versions. In other words, many want to believe that masterpieces such as Grandia or Shiru-Mira deserve a translation patch for their original versions, and that it will come sooner or later, given that the SS is a system still young in the hacking communities which just hasn't been looked into too much yet. In the very case of Grandia, finding anybody tolerating the dubbed version these days would be weird, if you ask me (though I believe there's an undubbed version patch for this too).
Too bad, hearing that Supper's patches aren't compatible with undubbed versions patches, by the way, though that's what I expected. Thanks for letting us know there's a way for doing it yourself -- it's anything but quick or easy, though. Hopefully your MKR patch gets popular enough so that well... it happens what it usually happens when something's popular enough in the internets (...).
For the original Eternal Blue, Game Arts was clearly anticipating the possibility of a western release and included the English font even in the Japanese version, so a similar situation might have occurred with the remakes.
I wonder about the Saturn version. WD had announced the Saturn Lunar games I think, presumably before US consoles sales got too bad even for them (and I'll guess MKR got released since it sounds like they had already been pretty invested in it).
A more faithful translation of some of the games Working Designs messed with would be neat, but it seems like a lot of them had voice acting, so either you'd have to rig up a subtitle script or find amateur English voice actors (who don't suck) to fill the parts, and either way that would be a lot of effort. I'm not saying it's impossible, though.
I don't know, I've heard some pretty good fandubs before. Quite a few that were better than WD's efforts at least.
I know they didn't release the Saturn versions, but since you seemed able to do magic knight ray earth, any chance you could insert the English text of Grandia and silhouette mirage into the Saturn versions? I'd be eternally grateful.
Perhaps, but I don't think a project like this one, which appears to be a one man show (and a very good one at that), is going to attract much talent.
You'll all be pleased to hear that I've finally seen the light! Today I had the sudden revelation that Working Designs did nothing but good to the games they published, and are truly the unsung heroes of the '90s gaming industry. Indeed, their only failing was that they didn't go far enough. Therefore, I'm dropping the Un-Worked Design project in favor of a new one:Brilliant my man! Can you change the plot like they did to the playstation release too? Oh and more fart jokes!
Lunar: The Silver Star (Sega CD) -- Worked Design patch v0 (4/1/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/qZlwGVX.png) (http://i.imgur.com/34mLlqJ.png) (http://i.imgur.com/9Sz4H6N.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/s6waj8g8rzxej7f/Lunar+The+Silver+Star+SCD+Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Not tested at all, because pssssht who does that?
Changes:Spoiler:* Saving the game now costs Silver (100s times Alex's level). This was by far the best change in the US version of Eternal Blue, and I know everyone will be euphoric to have this same experience in The Silver Star!
* Trying to load checkpoints will now reset the game. While this might appear to be a bug, if you think about it, it's really just a logical extension of the improvements to the save system!
* All enemies have their stats raised substantially.
* All items now cost much more.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the world of Worked Designs. Look forward to future entries in this series!
0/10
Came for the 0 kilobyte patch and was disappointed with the completable game.
WD does no wrong.
Such a missed opportunity not to make the harp you play at the end of the game a missable item with obscure fetch quests to get it, for example a sidequest in that incestuous village (according to American Lunar canon) where you help a bastard child find out who his mother is, is it Hillary Clinton, Michael Jackson or Madeleine Albright? And then you get a piece of shit for your trouble which you have to trade with the white dragon in the beginning (imagine how priceless for players to realize that after they can no longer get it!) as the beginning of a looong fetch quest with no obvious cues or even dialogue hinting you got that item.
Add to that a hidden timer until the final boss is fed up and just initiates the end of the world (and wipes all saves). To add realism, and fix one gaping plot hole those japanese hacks didn't think of.
The possibilities are endless!
Well, including scrapped features like the old party movement pattern might be cool but who cares about that, why would we give those stupid devs the time and chance to screw up this game even further than they already did? We have enough on our plate to fix as it is already.
Is it normal for the cut scenes in popful mail to stutter occasionally or is this just an emulation issue?Fairly certain it's a glitch for the emulator on the pi. Been playing the same game on Fusion for Windows and it runs perfectly.
I'm playing popful mail on a raspberry pi 3 in the lr-genesis-plus-gx emulator.
Is it normal for the cut scenes in popful mail to stutter occasionally or is this just an emulation issue?
I'm playing popful mail on a raspberry pi 3 in the lr-genesis-plus-gx emulator.
Finally finished up with SSSC.
One alteration I didn't do anything about was the bromide locations, which Working Designs changed, as usual, to try to drive up sales of their strategy guides. (Oh, excuse me... "to make more sense, or add continuity", according to the manual, in the same breath as some unsubtle comments about "frustrated gamers who were unfortunate enough to buy an unofficial guide".) While restoring this would be technically tricky but feasible, the more pressing issue is that I don't have translations (or even JP script dumps) for the event dialogue that was removed in the US version, which precludes any real effort at it for now. Sorry. Same goes for the shenanigans with the "Rememberizer".
Awesome as always, Supper.
By any chance, do you mind elaborating on those removed random dialogues? Seems like quite the serious cut and now it really begs my curiosity.
It's not like anyone else online is documenting these changes that much, as much as passionate people trying to convince others it's actually a completely accurate translation ("did you know Quark says my poop/washi no unko in the Japanese version" or stuff). That would be really lovely. Your digests of the major changes for each game are always a treat to read and have new trivia not found anywhere else, but on the other hand I can see the romhacking work is already draining (dropping that many hacks for CD-based consoles casually is no small effort).
You did a great job on this patch Supper, keep up the great work.
Anyway, I'm going to take a break from doing any more of these patches, at least for now. With a dozen of these in the bag, I've put a decent dent in the Working Designs catalog, and frankly I've gotten pretty sick of the obnoxious, abrasive, and arrogant culture surrounding the company. I may tie up some loose ends that have been pending for a while (that dialogue overflow in TSS vivify told me about ages ago, nudity in Vay, etc.), but I'm not planning on starting work on any new games for now. I don't know if or when I'll get back to this, but thank you to everyone who's supported me the last few months. I hope you enjoy these games more than I can, because this project has made me lose what little taste I had for the English versions of them.
Before you hang up your hat though, could you please submit these patches to the RHDN directory before they get lost to the eventual MediaFire broken link netherverse?I've been wondering why they haven't been uploaded yet tbh.
I know that this thread is about working designs, but would you ever consider fixing other games, from a different company?
Excellent work on all of this Supper! Thank you. Always happy to see these kind of improvement or definitive version patches.
Before you hang up your hat though, could you please submit these patches to the RHDN directory before they get lost to the eventual MediaFire broken link netherverse?
Vay had nudity? I'm kind of surprised at that..well maybe not since that was common for SEGA CD games.
Anyway, I'm going to take a break from doing any more of these patches, at least for now.
Sorry for the long delay -- I've been pretty busy lately. Here's Lunar 2.
Lunar 2 - Eternal Blue Complete (PlayStation) -- patch v0 (5/5/17)
(http://i.imgur.com/9uC6mZF.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/file/psspmicaar50ias/Lunar+2+-+Eternal+Blue+Complete+Un-Worked+Design+v0.zip)
Tested all the way through, should work fine.
Changes:Spoiler:* Holding down the X button will now continuously advance the dialogue, as in the Japanese version.
* In the Japanese version, the White Tower uses the same background track as the other Pentagulia towers, and White Mask Funk plays below the decks of the Destiny after acquiring it from Leo. The US version shuffles this around so that White Mask Funk plays in the White Tower, and the Destiny uses the world map theme. This has been reverted.
* The Serak Palace now charges the original 100 Silver instead of the US version's 666 Silver.
As you can see, that's a very short changelog. As it turns out, the US version of Lunar 2 did not, as far as I can tell, have its difficulty altered in any meaningful way -- enemy stats, item prices, spell costs, etc. are all the same. Honestly, I wouldn't have bothered making this patch at all if I hadn't already done all the other games in the series, but here it is for completion's sake.
I'm quite surprised the difficulty was left untouched, considering every other game by this company that I've looked at had some kind of changes, and I have to wonder what happened. Apparently, there was some internal tumult going on at Working Designs during the production of this game (Vic made a comment somewhere about having to take over writing duties after the original guy started behaving erratically, and called it "a really terrible last quarter of a project"), and since they were also in the process of replacing their programmer at the time, I'd guess things got chaotic enough that they simply ran out of time to mess with the difficulty.
Anyway, I'm going to take a break from doing any more of these patches, at least for now. With a dozen of these in the bag, I've put a decent dent in the Working Designs catalog, and frankly I've gotten pretty sick of the obnoxious, abrasive, and arrogant culture surrounding the company. I may tie up some loose ends that have been pending for a while (that dialogue overflow in TSS vivify told me about ages ago, nudity in Vay, etc.), but I'm not planning on starting work on any new games for now. I don't know if or when I'll get back to this, but thank you to everyone who's supported me the last few months. I hope you enjoy these games more than I can, because this project has made me lose what little taste I had for the English versions of them.
Supper, thank you for all your hard work and I'm sorry for WD to have such a distorted view of the gaming world ("Our games go to 11 !!!"), so I quoted "Working Designs = George Lucas" (that guy who created one of the biggest franchises of all time and at the same time almost ruined it completely by making completely wrong decisions).I'd say there's a little difference in that at least George was altering his OWN creation. :P
Been awhile since I last tried any of these patches on real hardware but Lunar 2 patch for psx is freezing at this point.
https://ibb.co/eDgN5v
Tried it with both a boot disc and the gameshark exploit.
Lunar SSSC psx appears to be working fine in both cases tho. Will test the others sometime this week. Thanks again
Didn't see the recent updates, guess I'm late to the party.
Really good job you've done for all of these games, Supper. Considering how these games are too obscure to have someone else retranslate properly this might be their best shot at a presentation closer to the original experience.
Thanks a lot for everything you did so far.
Having these fixes and the enjoyable insights into the game's regional changes forever would be like a dream coming true, but not realistic, certainly not if the cost is a headache to the modder because of the "subculture" around these changes (if Xseed's handling of the PSP version of Lunar is too much for them, and they're the best in the business, what chance does someone bugfixing the old releases have?), or the novelty factor wearing thin and your interest fading.
You know, I've been wondering if WD made any significant changes on the shooters they ported (Elemental Gearbolt, RayStorm, RayCrisis, Thunder Force V).
Spoiler:* The US version modified the very end of the game to make Alex take extremely high damage from Luna's lightning blasts unless the player uses the Alex's Harp item.
I'm curious: when do you plan on uploading these to the main site? That way, your patches show up in the searches and more people can find them (I'm sure more people than us forum members would like to try out your patches). For example, I had heard about what happened with Exile II: Wicked Phenomenon, but it wasn't until now, digging through the archives of the Personal Projects subforum, that I saw something was done about it.
I'm gonna risk playing Devil's Advocate here and say that, although I found it frustrating at first, when I figured out what I had to do, I actually thought that part of the game was pretty clever.Spoiler:Basically, in the game's plot, Luna has been hypnotized into fighting Alex, and when Alex plays the harp, that helps Luna remember who she is and fight the brainwashing, and as a result, restrain her attacks and deal less damage. Now that I know that wasn't part of the original game, I wonder what the point of that part was.
So WD had increased the difficalty of the first Lunar in PSX version. That explains why did I always have to spend extra time on mob-grinding to level up in order to beat the first boss in a town. Nice work!
You know, I've been wondering if WD made any significant changes on the shooters they ported (Elemental Gearbolt, RayStorm, RayCrisis, Thunder Force V).
I know Elemental Gearbolt is hard as ALL HELL on the US version, but Alfa System games aren't exactly easy...
I just wanted to take a moment to say thanks, Supper. I am a HUGE fan of Working Designs, however I definitely agree that you're doing the right thing fixing the asinine changes they made to the difficulty of their games.
Also I wanted to take a moment to explain why I'm a fan of WD. Their translations have aged terribly, and they did butcher the script of many games they worked on.
BUT - I'm 35. In the late 80s and through about 2000 there really weren't anyone localizing games like these. Many of these games *WERE* niche, and gaming itself was still pretty niche back then. If it wasn't for WD I have no doubt that most/all of these games would have never been released in English before the days of fan translations. Since fan translations weren't even a thin until the late 90s, and emulation of systems like the PSX wasn't really viable until the mid 2000s, many of us would have missed out on ever playing these games at all.
I don't think hating on you is at all fair, but do try to understand that many of us love WD because of what they did, not because of HOW they did it.
Still though, I think changing the difficulty was a completely stupid thing to do, and in some cases (Exile 2) it completely broke the game. There was no good reason to do that, and thank you again for what you're doing.
Perhaps you could take a break from WD games and look into doing fixes for other games? I'm sure WD wasn't the only company monkeying with game balance when bringing games overseas (Squaresoft circa 1992 I'm looking at YOU), so perhaps there are other games that could use some fixing?
(And yes I know that FFIV has already been fixed, I'm just pointing to that as an example).
I have a question, does the psx version share the same translation or is it more acceptable?The translation itself is untouched in these patches.
The translation itself is untouched in these patches.
The difference between PSX and SCD text is some new parts are in but others were taken out. I can't really say if one is more acceptable than the other as they tend to both have the same quality.
If something was meaningfully altered for the US version and it's in my power to revert it, I'm doing it, regardless of whether I think it was for the better.
I don't want to criticise you, seeing as you're doing all the lifting here, and I'm enjoying these patches for free, but why take that attitude?
Why not cherry pick? Why not create the definitive or *best* version?
I read through your notes with great fascination, and there's actually a few things I didn't like being reverted.
This is pretty cool.
I read the ReadMe files with the SCD/TCD games, and my emulation set-up is with ISO/MP3 on my Xbox.
The ReadMe states I need to put the audio files in WAV format with the ISO, and all of them get renamed, and then I need to use the accompanying CUE?
Is this to help people inexperienced with emulation? Because I just want to patch my ISO, rename it back to what it was, and then drop back in my original folder on my Xbox with my original CUE.
I'm assuming the patcher doesn't actually change the audio data, since it's simply altering numerical numbers in the game itself... Right?
This is the same disturbing kind of hubris Working Designs had.
I don't want to criticise you, seeing as you're doing all the lifting here, and I'm enjoying these patches for free, but why take that attitude?
Why not cherry pick? Why not create the definitive or *best* version? Or create varied patches, maybe with a menu system, where players can choose what they want? Sort of like how Vampire: Bloodlines had options to vary a patch to the user's taste.
I mean, I basically don't understand your stoic determination to revert everything in your power, even if it's for the worse, while at the same time admitting there's a ton of stuff you can't revert.
I read through your notes with great fascination, and there's actually a few things I didn't like being reverted.
Now I'm wondering... Do I put up with crappy changes to get the few good, or do I revert even if it means losing good stuff...?
Regardless, I appreciate the work. For Exile II previously I'd played through the JPN release, switching in the English audio files. Nice to play it through properly.
Can anyone confirm if WD butchered Dragon Force in any way?
It's really unfortunate you don't like these
Anyway, thanks for giving these patches a spin. Hope you're enjoying the games despite any changes you don't like.
No, thank YOU for making them. Many years ago I had wondered if it were possible for someone to take the Exile 2 data and swap in the variables from the JPN version. In the end I put the English audio files in the JPN version, and it worked reasonably enough. Very cool to now have a playable version. I've also been meaning to play the Lunar games for the last 20 years. Now might finally be the time!
I had some trouble with the drag-n-drop method (Win XP), but got there in the end with command line patching. I should mention, some games' post-patch hashes did not match what was in the Readme for that game (ie: Exile 2), and for some reason both my Lunar games on Sega CD didn't match the pre-patch hash. However, everything booted fine after patching, and the changes seem to be in place.
Could I be looking at a random crash down the line?
Also, not sure if this is the patch for Magic Knight Rayearth, or my RHEA board screwing up, but I was playing it patched and on an SD card on actual Saturn. Right at the start, after you fall off that flying griffon thing, the game seemed to half-freeze. The voiceless dialogue boxes popped up, but after the text had run it just hanged there for ages. Like it was trying to find and load data but couldn't find it. I managed to get beyond this part and save, and reset the Saturn, and it worked fine again. I'm not sure if the unpatched version does this.
i tried to apply the popful mail patch on the bin( i dragged the bin file to the bat file) it opened a cmd window, i saw the progress there. the windows closed by itself.You need to follow the patching instructions precisely, no drag&drop. The ISO you have is likely just fine. Just make sure you follow the patching directions.
i tested and the first enemie was damaging me with 12 points instead of 10 of japanese versions. the mages enemies give me 20 points of damage instead of 10. ok. maybe i will see the diference on the store, i thinked. the prices:
amulet 1500 gold
orange 90 gold
cherry 180 gold
its all the same. the patch didnt worked.
the rom was downloaded on -- mention of specific rom site excised --. can someone help me?
You need to follow the patching instructions precisely, no drag&drop. The ISO you have is likely just fine. Just make sure you follow the patching directions.
i tried to apply the popful mail patch on the bin( i dragged the bin file to the bat file) it opened a cmd window, i saw the progress there. the windows closed by itself.
i tested and the first enemie was damaging me with 12 points instead of 10 of japanese versions. the mages enemies give me 20 points of damage instead of 10. ok. maybe i will see the diference on the store, i thinked. the prices:
amulet 1500 gold
orange 90 gold
cherry 180 gold
its all the same. the patch didnt worked.
the rom was downloaded on -- mention of specific rom site excised --. can someone help me?
Well, that could be a number of things. Just to be sure, you did run the "PopfulMailUnWorked.cue" file and not your original CUE, right? The patcher doesn't touch your original files; it makes a copy and patches that.
Otherwise, I'll probably have to get you to run the patcher from the command line to see if you're getting any error messages. I should probably have set it up to log to a text file to make things easier, but too late for that.
I just found out about these and holy shit I'm excited, are they hard to apply? Do you need a certain version of the game/iso?
Anything should work as long as it's either BIN/CUE or ISO. If you're using an emulator, it needs to be able to handle ISO/WAV, since that's what the patcher outputs. The only game I've done so far that actually had multiple revisions was Alundra, and I included separate patches for the 1.0/1.1 versions.
And I really am still working... very, very slowly... on putting together new updates for these patches. I've been pointed to a disc mastering tool which will hopefully solve issues like the audio sync with Eternal Blue (or not -- it turns out the game "peeks" at the audio data as it plays to sync cutscenes, so the real problem may be the format conversion). Sorry if anyone's hanging on the edge of their seat for updates, but I've wound up taking on quite a few other projects lately.
Hey, everyone, I just registered because of this thread. I think it's really awesome that much deserved attention is being given to these great games. Popful Mail in particular is close to my heart.
I don't mean to jump in abruptly, but I was a dedicated pro translator for quite some time, did anime and manga, and later, software and legal. I'm in IT now, and my free time outside of work varies, but I'd like to offer myself as a resource, in case anyone needs maybe some spot translation, translation validation, or little things. I can't commit to any big projects at the moment because I'm already involved in one for an anime. But I couldn't resist this thread, so if there are any little bits or pieces of things where I can help bring clarity, please feel free to email or PM. :)
To be fair to Working Designs, I have never played in Japanese any of the games they localized, so I have no opinion whatsoever on their level of accuracy, competence, etc. On the other hand, I can relate to situations where there is a need to adapt some of the original content in order to make the product more marketable. But I can also relate to situations where adaptation gets a little out of hand or even tasteless. Hardcore fans will naturally hate it either way, and it may not be an optimal situation for the translators either, but, well, pro stuff is business, and business is of course a double-edged sword. I'm sure Vic Ireland and others would argue the same.
Does anyone know if these patches work with the undubbed Magic Knight Rayearth on Saturn?
Good work. Are these ready to be submitted to the RHDN database?That's a good question. They are more than worthy and would be, I think, welcomed to the database.
Of course they did important work, they just did it really poorly and there wasn't much competition at the time and we were too young, stupid and starved for RPG's to notice.
It's very frustrating that people understand so little about game design that any mention of increased difficulty automatically puts the image of those so-called "kaizo" hacks. And, you know, it's because of threads like this, that damn a group like Working Designs for doing a really important service. It's already bad enough that most people do not understand very basic concepts like "beating" a game, or what "grinding" means and what it actually does to a game, or what's "cheap", but to hack up games for the sole purpose of "correcting" this ignorance seems like a positively vile thing to do. Again, the actual idea behind the patches is mostly fine! It really should be a full retranslation, but whatever, different people want to do different things. I'm so much more concerned with the vile intent that is driving this thread, and so many threads throughout the internet.
Anyway, as most of you have probably guessed by now, I'm pretty much done with this little project. I've been promising final updates for a while, but at this point I'm tired of thinking about this company and more interested in working on translations. I'll probably submit these to the site as-is sometime soon (except for Alundra, because I still have no idea if it's actually playable to the end -- I don't suppose anyone can vouch for that?).
Thanks to everyone who supported, or criticized, this project. Positive or negative, opinions are a lot better than silence.
No one has the right to say "dialogue should never be rewritten", ever. That is always a case-by-case rule, never a general one. Even then, no one has the right to say "this dialogue shouldn't be rewritten" without a very deep understanding of just how different languages and cultures can be from each other. The idea that Working Designs ruined "works of art" really needs to go. I mean you're literally talking about things like Vay and Exile II in here (Vay is on a much higher level than Exile II, of course).
I'm a lot more interested in programming than debating (and at least slightly better at it), so I can't really give you the kind of detailed response you'd probably like. I'll just say that you seem to be perceiving a lot of ill intent on my part that simply doesn't exist. I'd certainly like it if more people considered how nasty it is to paint over someone else's canvas and say, "Here you go, fixed that for ya, bud" -- and "they're just games so it doesn't matter" is not an argument -- but that wasn't the point of these hacks, per se. The purpose was to (a.) make people aware that this was an issue, and (b.) allow anyone so inclined to play the games with the mechanics they were designed with. Also (c.) to give me something fun to do. Anything else was just a side effect.
And hey, you find someone who actually wants to retranslate these scripts, I'm game for that too :thumbsup:
Anyway, as most of you have probably guessed by now, I'm pretty much done with this little project. I've been promising final updates for a while, but at this point I'm tired of thinking about this company and more interested in working on translations. I'll probably submit these to the site as-is sometime soon (except for Alundra, because I still have no idea if it's actually playable to the end -- I don't suppose anyone can vouch for that?).
Thanks to everyone who supported, or criticized, this project. Positive or negative, opinions are a lot better than silence.
Thanks to everyone who supported, or criticized, this project. Positive or negative, opinions are a lot better than silence.As a late-comer to this project, I'm extremely supportive of it! Thank you for being willing to undertake something like this!! It's these sort of projects that make the rom-hacking scene so special. 25 years ago, who would have thought one day we would have fans taking these games and improving them in ways that the professionals could not? It boggles the mind!!
Thanks to everyone who supported, or criticized, this project. Positive or negative, opinions are a lot better than silence.
I can already say that at least two of the games released by Working Designs desperately needed the changes made: Popful Mail and Silhouette Mirage.
to hack up games for the sole purpose of "correcting" this ignorance seems like a positively vile thing to do.
Thanks for all of the work you've done. I certainly appreciate it.
I'm sad to hear that the Lunar EB cutscene timing won't get fixed, but maybe someone else can figure it out.
As a late-comer to this project, I'm extremely supportive of it! Thank you for being willing to undertake something like this!! It's these sort of projects that make the rom-hacking scene so special. 25 years ago, who would have thought one day we would have fans taking these games and improving them in ways that the professionals could not? It boggles the mind!!
My only disappointment is that there's no patch for Silhouette Mirage. Any chance we could convince you to tackle that game before you retire Un-Worked Designs for good? :'(
If I may ask; would you happen to have a list of the stats that Exile II's enemies have? The Japanese list and the English list?
Because I've recently played through the English Exile II; and actually had a lot of fun with it! I'm a very hardcore gamer; and I love really tough games in a way that most gamers never would. Never played the Japanese version; but by the sounds of it, it goes into the opposite extreme of being way too easy and forgiving.
So instead of having to choose between one bad option or the other, I was wondering if you'd like to put in my own set of stats? A list that I think will strike a good middle ground between what the two versions did. Would you mind putting in such a list, before calling it quits :angel: ?
I have been using this site for years, but only now have I registered so I could thank you for doing this project.
Even if you stop the project I am thankful for the work you have already done (though I hope you will consider continuing it).
I was a supporter of Working Designs many years ago (I bought most of these games back when Working Designs released them and still own them). However, I have always disagreed with many of the changes they made.
If you don't like the work here etc then you're free to pick up some romhacking tools and do the games justice yourself or play them without these patches.Did you even read the thing? Why do people always reply with this same statement even when it has nothing to do with what they're replying to?
Of course they did important work, they just did it really poorly and there wasn't much competition at the time and we were too young, stupid and starved for RPG's to notice.This too, did you read it either? There was nothing "poor" about what WD did, at all. You are being fed a story that is not true. The typical Working Designs "tweaked" release is an upgrade over the original for very clear reasons, as a response to initially poor design. This is a fact.
I'm a lot more interested in programming than debating (and at least slightly better at it), so I can't really give you the kind of detailed response you'd probably like. I'll just say that you seem to be perceiving a lot of ill intent on my part that simply doesn't exist. I'd certainly like it if more people considered how nasty it is to paint over someone else's canvas and say, "Here you go, fixed that for ya, bud" -- and "they're just games so it doesn't matter" is not an argument -- but that wasn't the point of these hacks, per se. The purpose was to (a.) make people aware that this was an issue, and (b.) allow anyone so inclined to play the games with the mechanics they were designed with. Also (c.) to give me something fun to do. Anything else was just a side effect.I am referring to this problem in a general sense, because this has become a lot more widespread in the last few years. That aside, it really doesn't help that this thread is huge and filled with people mindlessly bashing WD without any reflection on what they're actually saying or why.
It's not Working Designs but the AVGN EarthBound review reminded me of how broken difficult 7th Saga was.Unsurprisingly, The 7th Saga was not localized by WD, and is totally an example of screwing the game up from the original. Most WD releases are not like this whatsoever. All of the WD bashing assumes that they are, which is just blatantly untrue.
There is a difference between making a game harder and making the player characters underpowered to the point the RNG can allow the enemies to one-shot a full-health player team any time it feels like it.
I strongly recall Nintendo Power's advice on how to beat the other apprentices as enemies was to write down their moves and let them beat you, then return. In other words, abuse limited RNG so that you win by favorable RNG than by skill? That should be AGDQ playing Final Fantasy strats, not how a normal person is expected to play the game.
...No? Everyone has the right to say any opinion they want. That's the beauty of discussion forums.This is not a matter of opinion, and you are talking about a post that I did not write. There's the answer to all of your questions.
Like, this SaturnSilhouetteMirage person may as well have never played the game. I can say this because they are apparently completely unfamiliar with how obnoxiously easy the original Silhouette Mirage actually is, and the WD version didn't even make it much better. This isn't just someone's opinion here:
I don't know how many times I have to tell people that the actual idea of the patches is not the problem, but the sentiment behind them and the thought process of the people that want them so badly very much is.
I restate that if Exile II is the best example you have, a dumb version of an already very dumb game, then you have a lot more work to do.
There was a point where Working Designs were praised as gods, and any attempt to badmouth them was seen as contrarian. Now Working Designs is seen as a bunch of demons, and any attempt to defend their name is seen as contrarian. Which is the truth? I don't take issue with the idea of these patches, so much as I take issue with the intent of these patches and with a lot of the discussion in this thread. There is this overwhelming belief that Working Designs made a bunch of objective mistakes, but the proof is a bunch of opinions. "I don't like it" is never the same as "this is bad".
how obnoxiously easy the original Silhouette Mirage actually isI own the original, it's not obnoxiously easy at all.
I own the original, it's not obnoxiously easy at all.
You really need to settle down mate, maybe this thread isn't for you.
I restate that if Exile II is the best example you have, a dumb version of an already very dumb game, then you have a lot more work to do. I did a bit more research myself: I can confirm that Popful Mail, Silhouette Mirage, Vay, and Rayearth are all games that clearly benefited from the changes. Already a pretty good list.
I've been promising final updates for a while, but at this point I'm tired of thinking about this company and more interested in working on translations.Hello, are you working on retranslating any of your WD projects?
Sorry about that! You're right that I probably didn't target the same dump that Supper used. I wonder if there's a way I can make it a bit more resilient to that...Is there any way at all for others to get the fix working currently, or is the dump you used one that hasn't been distributed online (for example, your personal dump)?
So how do I install the Popful Mail patch to the .iso?