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General Category => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Spooniest on July 14, 2016, 10:24:40 am

Title: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on July 14, 2016, 10:24:40 am
http://kotaku.com/nintendo-announces-the-mini-nes-will-play-30-classic-g-1783660997 (http://kotaku.com/nintendo-announces-the-mini-nes-will-play-30-classic-g-1783660997)

HD connection. Nintendo-licensed. 30 games, with some third-party titles included. A classic controller design.

I. Am. Floored.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Axiphel on July 14, 2016, 10:42:55 am
Wow... So exciting... ::)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SC on July 14, 2016, 10:50:08 am
Ah, cool, an emulator in a retro-looking box.
Will they sell them to the same people who bought that awful Neo Geo X Gold?
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on July 14, 2016, 10:56:05 am
Poo on you guys, I'm excited :D
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Disch on July 14, 2016, 11:13:45 am
On one hand, I'm amazed Nintendo finally found a way to capitalize off of emulation with things like this and the virtual console.

On the other hand, I can't believe people are being duped into buying this stuff.


Honestly, how is this any different from playing NEStopia (with an extremely limited game selection and no hacks) on a big screen?  I guess you get to use the classic controller....
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jink640 on July 14, 2016, 11:16:12 am
I guess you get to use the classic controller....
I bought a pretty solid USB NES controller for about $15. It has four buttons, but other than that I cannot tell the difference.
Title: ###
Post by: FCandChill on July 14, 2016, 01:28:51 pm
 Comment removed because reasons...
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Axiphel on July 14, 2016, 01:35:27 pm
Interesting ... it reminds me of those plug-n-play consoles ... which I think this is. Basically you are buying an NES with the ability to play only 30 games … which is lame. Notice how there is a seam for the side-loader cover … it's just for show.

You're really buying a emulator made to look like an NES.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SleepyFist on July 14, 2016, 02:18:38 pm
On one hand Im glad that they're pushing for quaility it seems, The fact that it doesn't actually play cartridges and is limited to the 30 preinstalled makes it a no sell for me, But at the very least it's not repeat of the Mk 4 Sega Genesis.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on July 14, 2016, 02:23:19 pm
All the complaints you guys are offering are things that cost a lot of money to mass manufacture even back in the 80's...

This is a modern, sleek, cheap console that has a lot of good games, and I'll just bet someone will come up with a way to mod it sooner or later to play games from a removable storage device.

Upon further reflection, however, if the emulation isn't at least on par with the VC's (which still isn't perfect), then perhaps this would be more of a curiosity than a must-buy. I dunno yet. Have to wait till November I guess :D
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Axiphel on July 14, 2016, 02:26:18 pm
People might buy it and just put a Raspberry Pi in the case.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Bahamut ZERO on July 14, 2016, 02:41:35 pm
This sounds pretty badass. Reminds me of last year how Sega did something similar with the Genesis but that console could still play carts if I remember right (tho I don't think the genesis one could go HD). Kind of wish I had bought one of those, if anything for the controllers (since both o' mine are busted from douchebag friends having Ms.Pac-Man marathons).

Can the controllers be removed from the console? My browser won't open the link due to caveman internets.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Axiphel on July 14, 2016, 03:05:43 pm
This sounds pretty badass. Reminds me of last year how Sega did something similar with the Genesis but that console could still play carts if I remember right (tho I don't think the genesis one could go HD). Kind of wish I had bought one of those, if anything for the controllers (since both o' mine are busted from douchebag friends having Ms.Pac-Man marathons).

Can the controllers be removed from the console? My browser won't open the link due to caveman internets.

The controllers can be removed but they use the Wii's nunchuck plug instead of the original NES.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SC on July 14, 2016, 03:19:48 pm
The controllers can be removed but they use the Wii's nunchuck plug instead of the original NES.
Because Nintendo has to sell their own legit NES controllers, obviously.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 14, 2016, 03:21:30 pm
All the complaints you guys are offering are things that cost a lot of money to mass manufacture even back in the 80's...

This is a modern, sleek, cheap console that has a lot of good games, and I'll just bet someone will come up with a way to mod it sooner or later to play games from a removable storage device.

Upon further reflection, however, if the emulation isn't at least on par with the VC's (which still isn't perfect), then perhaps this would be more of a curiosity than a must-buy. I dunno yet. Have to wait till November I guess :D

I don't know. Sounds like they dropped the ball. With all the money Nintendo has they could have made a modern version of the NES that works right (unlike the original) and had access to the entire library. This device is cool, but only as a novelty. It's of little use to someone who isn't a retro NES noob. If they had made it funciton like a real NES then there would be a reason for all NES fans to get one. It's like one of those cheap "Greatest Hits" compilations you see at a gas station or something.

Also, why the hell did they put Super C but no Contra?
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SleepyFist on July 14, 2016, 04:00:49 pm
This sounds pretty badass. Reminds me of last year how Sega did something similar with the Genesis but that console could still play carts if I remember right (tho I don't think the genesis one could go HD). Kind of wish I had bought one of those, if anything for the controllers (since both o' mine are busted from douchebag friends having Ms.Pac-Man marathons).

That's the Genesis Mk 4, made by AT games, Do not recommend at all, at least half the built in games are bad homebrew and it only takes 2 AV cables, one for video and one for mono sound, and it will mangle any soundtrack put through it, otherwise the emulation is okay at best, included wireless controllers are garbage.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: KaioShin on July 14, 2016, 04:15:14 pm
People might buy it and just put a Raspberry Pi in the case.

And then play PSX games from it  :D
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on July 14, 2016, 04:50:24 pm
I don't know. Sounds like they dropped the ball. With all the money Nintendo has they could have made a modern version of the NES that works right (unlike the original) and had access to the entire library. This device is cool, but only as a novelty. It's of little use to someone who isn't a retro NES noob. If they had made it funciton like a real NES then there would be a reason for all NES fans to get one. It's like one of those cheap "Greatest Hits" compilations you see at a gas station or something.

Also, why the hell did they put Super C but no Contra?

Shit it's got Super C? I missed that! Neat!
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Lilinda on July 14, 2016, 05:58:19 pm
On one hand, I'm amazed Nintendo finally found a way to capitalize off of emulation with things like this and the virtual console.

On the other hand, I can't believe people are being duped into buying this stuff.


Honestly, how is this any different from playing NEStopia (with an extremely limited game selection and no hacks) on a big screen?  I guess you get to use the classic controller....

Lot of folks don't know emulation exists and how ye olde gaemes get ported to new consoles. It's basically for them, and also for people who want to do things legally.

If you're massively into NES, doing things legally as well... It's a very good price. 2 bucks per game. If you can afford a single lump payment of 60 plus any taxes or shipping/handling, it's an insane deal. FF1 alone is like 20 bucks bare minimum if you want to use a cart ,and 5 if you want to use the VC. Combine that with the other games and well shit gets pricey.

As for me, I own or have owned every single game on that list I give a shit about so I'm cool. I got emulation as my guide to fun times.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: nesrocks on July 14, 2016, 06:02:48 pm
Not to mention that it's factory new, not 30 years old.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MegaManJuno on July 14, 2016, 06:08:03 pm
Meh.. just feels like too little, too late.

Not to mention too limited, if there's no way to expand the library.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Chronosplit on July 14, 2016, 06:19:25 pm
I don't know. Sounds like they dropped the ball. With all the money Nintendo has they could have made a modern version of the NES that works right (unlike the original) and had access to the entire library. This device is cool, but only as a novelty. It's of little use to someone who isn't a retro NES noob. If they had made it funciton like a real NES then there would be a reason for all NES fans to get one. It's like one of those cheap "Greatest Hits" compilations you see at a gas station or something.

Also, why the hell did they put Super C but no Contra?
First thing I thought when I looked at this was "no VC connection?"  Then again they'd be selling it as more of a cheaper Wii U without the ability to play Wii U games, and the tradeoff would be free VC games.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 14, 2016, 07:16:27 pm
Not to mention that it's factory new, not 30 years old.

But stuff from 30 years ago was built well enough to last 30+ years. This thing is probably made by Chinese slaves and will be lucky to last more than 30 days.

If it were done right, I'd be all for this device. Instead, it's lazy and lacks imagination. There's very little info on this anywhere I turn so I just have to assume that it is an NES looking emu that can't use real NES controllers (including the Zapper or turbo controllers), can't use the NES Four Score, can't play real NES carts, no Game Genie and will only ever be able to play the games included on it. It's a lazy cash grab and is likely going to be a VERY pale imitation of owning a real NES due to it's serious lack of features and compatibility. It is pure novelty.

EDIT: The only way I could see something like this being useful would be if I was on vacation somewhere and was dying to play from a very limited selection of NES games. The $60 price tag ruins that though since it isn't as cheap as other similar devices I've seen.
Title: ###
Post by: FCandChill on July 14, 2016, 07:25:42 pm
 Comment removed because reasons...
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 14, 2016, 07:31:17 pm
Fun fact … there are sites that have flash emulators so you can play NES games in your browser.

Playing NES games on a phone or computer is lame though. Especially if you want to play a two player game.

Anyway...

If they were really smart about this they would have done something like made a new cartridge format for it and starting licensing new games for it and re-releasing old ones with upgrades. But no, Nintendo doesn't know what they are doing anymore so...

EDIT: At least it has a decent selection of games, I guess.
EDIT: It also appears that the games will have extra save funcitons. That's cool, but not enough to make me want to buy one and since I hate emulation for actual gaming, I would actually buy one of these things if it weren't for the lack of features/options. What a waste...
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MegaManJuno on July 14, 2016, 08:51:18 pm
I mean, really... Aside from the asthetics/nostalgia of the original NES design, what reason does anyone really have to get this thing over a Retron if they want an emulator in a box?
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: tvtoon on July 14, 2016, 09:34:37 pm
Still better than the WiiU, that doesn't have 30 games! >:D
Title: ###
Post by: FCandChill on July 14, 2016, 11:10:12 pm
 Comment removed because reasons...
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MathUser2929 on July 14, 2016, 11:19:21 pm
This thing would be a good gift from kids to their parents. I think alot of older gen are interested in this thing. Especially with Super Mario Bros. They really should have had duck hunt tho. Woulda cost more but with a pointer it woulda been a good device. They should sell a version like that with lots of zapper games.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on July 14, 2016, 11:46:42 pm
I'm very curious as to how far Nintendo will go with this thing.  I'd like to believe the decision to keep SNES emulation exclusive to the New 3DS was made out of a genuine concern to use a heavy-duty high-accuracy emulator.  If they go for the lowest bidder and release something with a flaky palette, it will be rather alarming.

But no, Nintendo doesn't know what they are doing anymore so...
Nintendo desperately needs to find some way to capitalize on all the people who think they know what Nintendo should be doing.  (I mean, do you think the market for this thing would be anywhere near what it would have been if Nintendo had already dumped its whole library on cell phones for 99 cents a piece, the way some people are advocating?)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Lilinda on July 14, 2016, 11:49:00 pm
The SNES emulators on the standard 3DS are so hacky that they don't really function very well. The one for the 3DS, Nintendo's official emulator, runs so much better in terms of compatibility and accuracy and etc etc.

I guess that's what happens when you over double your clock speed. Suddenly you can fucking do shit.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 15, 2016, 12:03:22 am
I would've too... my NES is really bad with pin connections. It's a side loader so the console gets damaged slowly each time you press a game down. I should get a top loader...

I know what you mean. I think I've owned at least 2 or 3 of the old toaster models. Those things can be very temperamental sometimes. I've currently got a top-loader that I keep my Powerpak in pretty much all the time. But due to another example of Nintendo's stupid design choices (I'm noticing a pattern here) it only has a shitty RF output. If I want to play this thing on an HD TV I'd probably have to get it modded and then buy a bunch of extra shit that I would only use for this purpose and still probably have gameplay issues because of lag. A legitimate NES (or a new and improved version) with an HDMI out would be nice and is something I would probably buy, but that's not what we're gonna get. They're probably gonna make a ton of money off of this thing but I cannot overstate how big of an opportunity they let walk right by them.

Quote
Nintendo desperately needs to find some way to capitalize on all the people who think they know what Nintendo should be doing.

Probably so since they've been so hit and miss since after the SNES. That system was damn near perfect. Then they goofed everything up with the N64 and haven't been the same since. Nintendo is a sad old hat. Right now it seems like they thrive on gimmicks and the market's nostalgia for their glory days which are far behind them. Nintendo's made a lot of good games and people have made a lot of good games for their systems so I want them to do better, but they make it so easy to hate them.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on July 15, 2016, 01:03:36 am
Must a company's only focus be on innovation and hardcore fans' interests? I know there's lots of great stuff Nintendo could do. But I try to remember that even a company that is very large and powerful is still run by human beings who aren't perfect.

Is it ok for a game company to want to make money? They aren't making this thing very expensive; *I* can afford it, and I'm barely working at all right now. I appreciate the combination of economy, small form factor and game selection which is actually quite good. StarTropics is on there, so is Double Dragon 2 and Mega Man 2.

I dunno, I think holding a bunch of nerdy game developers to the standard of Renaissance Master Artistes who must produce nothing but deathless masterpieces every time is a bit hard nosed.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 15, 2016, 01:55:53 am
I guess one of my main complaints here is that they made a quick and easy entry to the NES library that has no potential to grow beyond what it is when they could have very easily made this thing into a real NES with modern design upgrades and it would have been the new gold standard for playing NES games. No more playing on aging electronics that can't display properly on modern televisions without extra crap. No more endlessly searching for controllers or other accessories that aren't cheap Chinese knock-offs because the real thing hasn't been made for decades. If they were smarter about this they could have made money in the novelty market and satisfied hardcore fans of the NES but they have just proven that they don't have the imagination or foresight to accomplish such a goal. Their move here was almost as dumb as having the N64 use cartridges instead of CDs. It was right there staring them in the face the entire time but they just didn't see it.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: resq on July 15, 2016, 02:38:05 am
Meh.. just feels like too little, too late.

Not to mention too limited, if there's no way to expand the library.
Just thought I'd mention since it was said this would be in HD: Kevtris and GameTechUS recently released their first batch of HD NES upgrades and they sold out in about 24 hours. GameTechUS is selling HD modded NES consoles on his website currently. They're pretty expensive - about $390 for the front loader (buying a front loader modded with HD graphics output) and like $300 or $270 or something for the top loader.

Here's a link in case anyone is interested. https://www.game-tech.us/shop/

Edit: Okay Jesus H. Christ the top loader price seems to have increased to $499.95 . Fuck the actual what. The front loader is still $390 and the mod packages were going for about $120 - $140.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Bonk on July 15, 2016, 06:40:49 am
I mean, really... Aside from the asthetics/nostalgia of the original NES design, what reason does anyone really have to get this thing over a Retron if they want an emulator in a box?

Well for ONE, this won't use illegally stolen software, violating OSS licenses and making money off the years of dedicated hard work of a myriad of individuals who do it out of passion, preservation in an open environment to promote collaboration.

(Hopefully that is)


Don't buy a Retron. (Or a Retro Game Freak, which is the same thing. A shitty basic android SOC in a box running stolen and modified Libretro) You are supporting lying scumbag fucks.



I would've too... my NES is really bad with pin connections. It's a side loader so the console gets damaged slowly each time you press a game down. I should get a top loader...

Or you can buy a Blinking Light Win.
https://www.arcadeworks.net/blw
Solves the problem. No more shitty ZIF, no super deathgrip (Just enough to keep in contact and snug). No more fiddling with the carts or toggling the tray. Stick the game in like a regular edge connector and you are done with it.

I'm surprised people around here don't know about that yet
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MegaManJuno on July 15, 2016, 08:09:48 am
For reference, I don't own a Retron or Game Freak (no need to, between emulation and still owning my original system since the 80s).

Just thinking from an average consumer's perspective, who isn't really "in the know" on the Retron history and such.

Just on paper, the Retron sounds like the much better deal.

/me shrugs
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on July 15, 2016, 09:42:42 am
they could have very easily made this thing into a real NES
No, not very easily.

Quote
it would have been the new gold standard for playing NES games.
If there were that many people who were that interested in playing NES cartridges, RetroN and Messiah and all the other clone makers would be rolling in the dough.  The vast majority of people willing to pay for any such device are not interested in a "gold standard", and it's just not worth it trying to cater to that tiny fraction who would care. 
Quote
If they were smarter about this they could have made money
I'm sure they will make plenty of money this way.  Clearly they have no idea what they are doing.  :P
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: M-Tee on July 15, 2016, 10:48:07 am
I see no difference between that and this:
(http://www.vintagecomputing.com/wp-content/images/namco2/namco2_2_large.jpg)
It's a fun, cute thing for what it is. Not anything I would ever pay for. But, then again, I'm very much like Alton Brown in that I don't want a unitasker hooked up to my TV, but a lot of people are fine with it and will. Good selection of games it has on it though.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jink640 on July 15, 2016, 10:55:00 am
From a business standpoint: This is great, no doubt with all the hype and the low cost of production that they will move a lot of these out (my prediction is it will sell out similar to the beginning of the amiibo craze).

From the standpoint of a person who has a PC with a complete romset, solid emulators, and a USB controller: This thing is only interesting to have on your shelf so people come over and say "well, would you look at that". If they decided to add SD card support (no way in hell that will happen) it could be okay. Other than the aforementioned mapper problems, it would be fun to have around. It is still made worthless due to the raspberry Pi and any PC/smartphone.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: maseter on July 15, 2016, 05:19:41 pm
This thing will make a great Raspberry Pi case, with enough room to also fit one of those MayFlash Wii Classic Controller to USB adapters:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rnIaU_CIq_A/Tm5tMW0TObI/AAAAAAAACXE/8yy9-0Zvs_Y/s400/MayFlash+-+Wii+Controller+Adapter+-+02.JPG)

They will also sell additional controllers for $9.99! Imagine that, a genuine, new, classic Nintendo controller for that cheap. I wonder if they use the very same molds and if the original controller pcbs will fit, crossing my fingers and holding my breath!
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Disch on July 15, 2016, 05:42:28 pm
They will also sell additional controllers for $9.99! Imagine that, a genuine, new, classic Nintendo controller for that cheap.

I don't know when it was the last time you used those controllers, but they're not as good as you remember.  Their tiny size, and sharp corners make them pretty uncomfortable.  I'd much rather have the "dog bone" redesign controller -- but even those aren't spectacular.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MathUser2929 on July 15, 2016, 06:12:32 pm
I don't know when it was the last time you used those controllers, but they're not as good as you remember.  Their tiny size, and sharp corners make them pretty uncomfortable.  I'd much rather have the "dog bone" redesign controller -- but even those aren't spectacular.

Definately. I would much rather have the dogbone controller. I don't go for sharp d-pads.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: drunkenmaverick on July 15, 2016, 06:15:05 pm
I see no difference between that and this:
(http://www.vintagecomputing.com/wp-content/images/namco2/namco2_2_large.jpg)
It's a fun, cute thing for what it is. Not anything I would ever pay for. But, then again, I'm very much like Alton Brown in that I don't want a unitasker hooked up to my TV, but a lot of people are fine with it and will. Good selection of games it has on it though.

Or this:
(http://www.bwass.org/bucket/PPSJIIIboxfront.jpg)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 15, 2016, 07:08:30 pm
Quote
If there were that many people who were that interested in playing NES cartridges, RetroN and Messiah and all the other clone makers would be rolling in the dough.  The vast majority of people willing to pay for any such device are not interested in a "gold standard", and it's just not worth it trying to cater to that tiny fraction who would care.

You're missing the point here, which is what could have very easily been. This will still be a useful device but had they just had more of an imagination and been a little more ambitious with it they could have made far more money from it than they will. This thing has no place to go. It is a static product with no potential for add-ons, upgrades or more games.

Quote
I'm sure they will make plenty of money this way.  Clearly they have no idea what they are doing.  :P

You don't make much of a point by quoting half of a sentence just for the sake of making a joke.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: resq on July 15, 2016, 07:36:14 pm

NES Classic Mini - is it Hi-Def NES competition?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgz8ldu2riE
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 15, 2016, 07:44:38 pm
Nobody have anything to say about Kevtris' NES HD upgrade packages? It's kindof a revoulitionary thing. It's never even been done before.

Kevtris and GameTechUS HD NES buy it now  :happy: Nobody ever played this before because it never existed before. And nobody wants to comment about it?

Really?

https://www.game-tech.us/shop/

NES Classic Mini - is it Hi-Def NES competition?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgz8ldu2riE

Holy crap those prices are high. I guess they don't expect to sell many of them. There are consoles that are powerful enough to emulate the NES that were cheaper than that brand new.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: resq on July 15, 2016, 07:54:04 pm
 Yea.

Considering there are probaby millions of people who have NES and want HD in the United States - it probably isn't a longshot to presume the effort might be making massive amounts of money especially since it's a one of a kind deal.

I personally would love to have a HD NES console. I wouldn't pay four hundred for it but I bet there are a bunch of rich fuggers out there who would. . .
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Disch on July 15, 2016, 07:58:42 pm
I personally would love to have a HD NES console.

Hook your computer up to a big screen.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: resq on July 15, 2016, 08:08:49 pm
Hook your computer up to a big screen.
A big screen is bigger but it isn't big screen or in HD.

 :crazy: :woot!: :banghead:
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Disch on July 15, 2016, 08:18:57 pm
Is this a joke? Yea I could do that but you're kindof missing the point. NES doesn't push HD graphics.

Does the mini-NES?  I haven't seen anything that indicates the graphics are remade to be HD -- only that it comes bundled with an HDMI cable which doesn't mean anything.  I was under the impression that this thing was just a normal emulator-in-a-box.

At least with software emulators you can apply graphics filters to scale up the resolution.




EDIT:

My post might not make sense because I jumped into the end of a conversation and skipped over most of it.  So nevermind.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: resq on July 15, 2016, 10:22:27 pm
nevermind.
uhh okay? I think people should buy Kevtris and GameTechUS products. These people are at the precipice of NES game modding develpment. They can only be ursurped by the Japanese translator people.

Those Jap Tran users are silly along the lines of Dr. Evil and such.  >:D :angel: >:D :angel: :police: :thumbsup:

wow okay I'm going to leave this here because it's hilarious and retarded. what the fuck was I talking about?? holy crap.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on July 16, 2016, 03:15:23 am
You guys are lucky I've got a couple glasses of Merlot in me...makes me laugh  :laugh:

This is a cool little thing from Nintendo for a change. I have been rather unimpressed with them for a while. They are smarter than I gave them credit for.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: KaioShin on July 16, 2016, 03:20:26 am
Is this a joke? Yea I could do that but you're kindof missing the point. NES doesn't push HD graphics. Only the Kevtris/GameTechUS expantion port pushes this.

A big screen is bigger but it isn't big screen or in HD.

 :crazy: :woot!: :banghead:

What? I could play NES games on my 4K TV from my computer right now with no additional hardware gimmicks. With way more upscaling options than that NES mod.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: PresidentLeever on July 16, 2016, 08:07:43 am
An idea that someone made a mockup of:
(http://i.imgur.com/G5aHgJV.jpg)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SleepyFist on July 16, 2016, 09:05:31 am
An idea that someone made a mockup of:
(http://i.imgur.com/G5aHgJV.jpg)
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on July 16, 2016, 01:17:10 pm
You're missing the point here, which is what could have very easily been. This will still be a useful device but had they just had more of an imagination and been a little more ambitious with it they could have made far more money from it than they will. This thing has no place to go. It is a static product with no potential for add-ons, upgrades or more games.
And if they had made a more sophisticated device, the price would have gone up considerably.  Far more people would be turned off by a higher price than there are people interested in "add-ons, upgrades or more games".  How can you say there would be "far more money" to be made?

I'm so very tired of the argument that "[Company] isn't making products that I like; therefore [company] is run by complete idiots who will run [company] into bankruptcy; I am so much smarter than anyone at [company]; I know this because I bought the last dozen releases by [company] and I hated all of them."

Imagine that, a genuine, new, classic Nintendo controller for that cheap.
Well, no, they're not "genuine, new, classic" since they'll have that Wii connector on the end of the cable and not the standard NES connector.  And I very much doubt that making them NES-compatible will be a trivial operation, simply because electronics have changed a lot in thirty years, but I guess it isn't beyond the realm of possibility.

... But I guess that's why you're contemplating swapping in the original controller pcbs.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Bregalad on July 16, 2016, 01:22:38 pm
On the other hand, I can't believe people are being duped into buying this stuff.


Honestly, how is this any different from playing NEStopia (with an extremely limited game selection and no hacks) on a big screen?  I guess you get to use the classic controller....
+1

Probably it won't even come with the NTSC filter, making games not look like they were originally supposed to.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: resq on July 16, 2016, 01:49:32 pm
You guys are lucky I've got a couple glasses of Merlot in me...makes me laugh  :laugh:


Yea I was fuller than a bitch. I'm going back now editing all the stupid shit I said. :laugh:
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 16, 2016, 04:28:53 pm
Quote
And if they had made a more sophisticated device, the price would have gone up considerably.

Yeah right. Each one of these things is probably produced for $3 a piece by Chinese children and like nearly everything else these days made in China it will be made from the cheapest, substitute grade materials the Earth has to offer.

Quote
How can you say there would be "far more money" to be made?

Because it's simple. This is a stand alone device that has no place to grow. If it was a device that you could buy more games and accessories for then that's more stuff to sell and longer that it will likely have a place in the market. There's hundreds of games for the NES and we all know that Nintendo isn't above reselling us the same crap over and over again. The least they can do is make it worth it.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: KaioShin on July 16, 2016, 04:39:58 pm
There is no market that wants to buy NES games en masse. It only seems that way to you because you move in the circle of 100 people that would. The thing contains probably all the games an average customer would care for. There is no need for it to be expandable or other fancy enhancements.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jonk on July 16, 2016, 04:42:59 pm
A legitimate NES (or a new and improved version) with an HDMI out would be nice and is something I would probably buy
I just used something like this (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009A6PJKQ) or this (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018DJJM6C) or this (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0152E8UEG). If you don't want artificial "delays" in the game play, you have to hook them up to a computer monitor and NOT a TV. But they work quite well, from my experience, and they are very cheap and easy to add.

EDIT: In case it's not clear from the above, I added the HDMI output module to both original (though maintained by adding new connectors so that the cartridges continue to work well) NES and SNES units that I've owned since buying them new when they first came out (1983 and 1991.) (No problems, yet, and the full feedback loop from video output to monitor back to eyes and into brain and through to hands using the controller seems about the same so far as I can tell.)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: PresidentLeever on July 16, 2016, 04:58:21 pm
This would be cooler if it was a real NES, which could also let you use save states etc. (or do flash carts already let you?).
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 16, 2016, 05:08:23 pm
There is no market that wants to buy NES games en masse.

You say that, yet that is exactly what they are releasing here. A device that features NES games in em masse.

I just think it's pitiful that if someone wants to properly play NES games on an HD TV (the only kind that are still being produced) they have to either mod their console or be limited to the very small selection that Nintendo chooses to offer. There were hundreds of games released for the NES and probably 50-70 that are actually worth playing. Would it really have been that much trouble for them to add some sort of expansion slot for cards that could be released later with other collections of NES games or something similar? I mean, they've been in the console business for almost as long as I have been alive.

July 16, 2016, 05:08:59 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I just used something like this (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009A6PJKQ) or this (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018DJJM6C) or this (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0152E8UEG). If you don't want artificial "delays" in the game play, you have to hook them up to a computer monitor and NOT a TV. But they work quite well, from my experience, and they are very cheap and easy to add.

EDIT: In case it's not clear from the above, I added the HDMI output module to both original (though maintained by adding new connectors so that the cartridges continue to work well) NES and SNES units that I've owned since buying them new when they first came out (1983 and 1991.) (No problems, yet, and the full feedback loop from video output to monitor back to eyes and into brain and through to hands using the controller seems about the same so far as I can tell.)

I guess I'll eventually just have to go this route.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on July 16, 2016, 05:44:42 pm
Yeah right. Each one of these things is probably produced for $3 a piece by Chinese children and like nearly everything else these days made in China it will be made from the cheapest, substitute grade materials the Earth has to offer.
So you think Nintendo is making $57 in pure profit on every unit sold?  If it costs the Chinese children an extra 50 cents in parts, you can bet that's going to be reflected in a substantial increase in price when it comes down the line.

Also, Nintendo has to support this thing after they sell it.  They're not going to go for the lowest bidder if that means they're going to have to fix or replace 10% of the units under warranty, especially if it means taking a hit to their reputation.  Adding complexity makes it all the more likely that a unit will fail.

Quote
Because it's simple. This is a stand alone device that has no place to grow. If it was a device that you could buy more games and accessories for then that's more stuff to sell and longer that it will likely have a place in the market.
The people who want more games – even NES games – probably already own a Wii or a Wii U or a 3DS.  Or they know well enough to get some emulator and download ROMs from the Internet.  Or they already have a RetroN or Messiah or something.  More stuff to sell just means more SKUs to keep and less room for other, more profitable products on the shelves.

And besides!  Any kind of expansion port would probably be hacked before too long, and then suddenly there goes the supposed profits they would reap from any of those fancy new expansions and so on.  Any kind of efforts expended on making it less hackable just means more money invested in R&D, and still more complex things that can go wrong.  Perhaps you'd like the unit to provide that authentic blinking-screen NES sensation?

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There's hundreds of games for the NES and we all know that Nintendo isn't above reselling us the same crap over and over again. The least they can do is make it worth it.
I'm sure even they know that they can only "resell the same crap" so many times before no one feels like buying it anymore.

I just think it's pitiful that if someone wants to properly play NES games on an HD TV (the only kind that are still being produced) they have to either mod their console or be limited to the very small selection that Nintendo chooses to offer.
What makes you think this would be any more "proper" than an emulator or a clone system if they just added an expansion port?

Quote
There were hundreds of games released for the NES and probably 50-70 that are actually worth playing.
Yes, and this has thirty of them.  Heck, if it really takes off they could probably sell a second non-expandable unit containing the other 20-40 games that are actually worth playing, and people would still buy it.

Quote
I mean, they've been in the console business for almost as long as I have been alive.
And yet, you still seem completely convinced that they have no idea what they're doing!
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 16, 2016, 08:09:26 pm
Quote
So you think Nintendo is making $57 in pure profit on every unit sold?

It was a joke. My point was that these things are surely worth much less than they are being sold for. That's how the world works. Things cost less to make than they probably ever did before but the company heads benefit from it, not the consumer or the majority of the company employees. Sure they had to develop it but I'm sure that was relatively cheap due to the staggering lack of features and the fact that they are simply recreating a very weak console from the 80's with modern components. Oh and the fact that they don't have to develop games for it, they just have to slap some old games that are already made onto it (yes, I understand that that isn't free but it's still nowhere near as much as it would cost to actually develope a new game).

Quote
And besides!  Any kind of expansion port would probably be hacked before too long, and then suddenly there goes the supposed profits they would reap from any of those fancy new expansions and so on.

That goes for every device but that hasn't stopped Nintendo from releasing new consoles so why would it stop them from adding extra functionality to this?

Quote
Perhaps you'd like the unit to provide that authentic blinking-screen NES sensation?

No. I'd just want the ability to play NES games on a modern TV without adapters, modding, using my computer or having to buy a new system that only has a handful of games that I'm actually interested in when something like what I am asking for here would be cheaper or less of a hassle.

Quote
I'm sure even they know that they can only "resell the same crap" so many times before no one feels like buying it anymore.

I think a lot of what I've seen from them from the past 20 years or so contradicts this. Plus, every few years a new generation comes along that they can resell their past glory to again and again.

Quote
What makes you think this would be any more "proper" than an emulator or a clone system if they just added an expansion port?

By proper I mean something that I can just hook up and play without a bunch of extra bullshit to buy or hookup and that is not some shitty pirate device or computer program that I personally only want to use for hacking purposes.

Quote
Yes, and this has thirty of them.  Heck, if it really takes off they could probably sell a second non-expandable unit containing the other 20-40 games that are actually worth playing, and people would still buy it.

When they announce that I will be less disappointed. It reminds me of when a band releases a compilation of their old demos that people have been waiting to hear in a remastered form or a collection of EPs that is long since out of print but the band doesn't bother to put all of the tracks despite there being plenty of space left on the disc. It's disappointing and many people who would otherwise be interested in it will be disappointed. All said, I still may end up buying one of these things, it just pisses me off that they cheaped out. The CRT-TVs I have won't last forever and they are only going to get rarer and more expensive so if I want to play Castlevania III, Little Nemo the Dream Master, Contra, G.I. Joe, Super Dodge Ball, Wizards and Warriors II, etc. I guess I'll just have to be lame and play them on an emulator.

Quote
And yet, you still seem completely convinced that they have no idea what they're doing!

If I suggested that, I was being a smartass. I'm just so disappointed that they decided to release something like this and the result was a disposable NES...
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on July 17, 2016, 12:07:46 am
Sure they had to develop it but I'm sure that was relatively cheap
Yes – and if development costs were higher, they would probably have to pass that expense on to the consumer, who might be less inclined to buy.

Quote
Oh and the fact that they don't have to develop games for it, they just have to slap some old games that are already made onto it
They also probably have to test everything exhaustively, or there will be hell to pay.

Quote
Quote
And besides!  Any kind of expansion port would probably be hacked before too long, and then suddenly there goes the supposed profits they would reap from any of those fancy new expansions and so on.
That goes for every device but that hasn't stopped Nintendo from releasing new consoles so why would it stop them from adding extra functionality to this?
Seems to me the Wii Mini has been quite impervious to hacking thus far.

Quote
By proper I mean something that I can just hook up and play without a bunch of extra bullshit to buy or hookup and that is not some shitty pirate device or computer program that I personally only want to use for hacking purposes.
Hooking up a computer to an HDTV is almost entirely trivial nowadays, and I'm sure a significant segment of the knowledgeable population has a very different view of emulation.

Quote
All said, I still may end up buying one of these things
And you think they're not going to make as much money on this than they could have if they drove up the price and development costs to cater to a segment of the population with even more exclusive tastes?
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 17, 2016, 12:47:31 am
Quote
Yes – and if development costs were higher, they would probably have to pass that expense on to the consumer, who might be less inclined to buy.

I don't see why they couldn't produce the sort of device I'm looking for and sell it for the same cost. $60 is probably twice what this thing should be sold for anyway. I have no doubt that this thing was much easier to develop since they didn't have to start from the ground up and already had a library of 100's of games that they could copy/paste onto it, yet it will still end up costing $60. Every bit of what they needed to make this thing a reality has already been around for years.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: mrrichard999 on July 17, 2016, 02:05:04 am
Just mod an old xbox and load it with all the retro systems!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KumB340gtUo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KumB340gtUo)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jonk on July 17, 2016, 03:00:57 am
Just mod an old xbox and load it with all the retro systems!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KumB340gtUo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KumB340gtUo)
I've got something just like that running an Xbox 360. Includes arcade games (qix, xybots, galaga, galaxian,...) and the rest mentioned there. Works okay. The menus are tedious to scroll up and down through as the game list is very long and the number of options for assigning key combinations is insanely huge.

I'll soon be working on something much smaller (slightly more than 3"x2".) The base board includes H.265 4K/60FPS and H.264 4K/30FPS capable VPU driving HDMI w/audio, Mali™-450 GPU (3 Pixel-processors + 2 Vertex shader processors), 4 USB 2.0 host ports, USB OTG, ethernet, 2GHz quad core cpu with 2GB DDR3 ram, and costs just $40 (in single retail units.) Will see how it goes. But it should be quite capable.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 17, 2016, 03:07:08 am
Just mod an old xbox and load it with all the retro systems!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KumB340gtUo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KumB340gtUo)

You know, I just may do that. I might as well. I'm already running a slightly modded PS2 for the huge stack of games I burned. If Nintendo did release another mini NES with additional games I'd just be buying a second NES just so I could play games that I should have been able to play on the first one. Plus, I'm not too keen on the idea of buying games that I have already owned in the past. I used to have a collection of over 100 NES games and about 40 SNES games. It would be nice to help support Nintendo, but since they obviously don't care about people like me why should I care about them?
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jonk on July 17, 2016, 03:44:25 am
It would be nice to help support Nintendo, but since they obviously don't care about people like me why should I care about them?
Support the people who are listening and doing things you want and enjoy. Don't support the people who aren't listening to you. Pretty simple rule.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MathUser2929 on July 17, 2016, 07:32:08 am
This is just like when people complained that the Wii U controller didn't have unlimited range and function as another portable. People just expect more. selling 100 dollars worth of digital titles for 60 ain't enough. It's gotta have a cartridge port, just like all those other plug and play devices out there. O wait, there's only one that did that.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Disch on July 17, 2016, 12:03:35 pm
You guys are way overthinking this.

If you think it's worth the money, buy it.
If you don't, don't.

The concept of "brand loyalty" or "supporting a company" is pretty ridiculous unless you have a personal investment in a company (like you personally know the owner or have stock in it or something).
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jonk on July 17, 2016, 02:08:12 pm
If you think it's worth the money, buy it.
If you don't, don't.

The concept of "brand loyalty" or "supporting a company" is pretty ridiculous unless you have a personal investment in a company (like you personally know the owner or have stock in it or something).
The only modification I'd want to add to what you wrote is that it may help to support local, small business companies, if such support can sustain a local expert on some technical topic. With the advent of very broadly popular, national companies such as Amazon, who can greatly reduce their costs through economies of scale plus non-retail storage warehouses located on cheap property and able to negotiate very low shipping rates with the few shippers that exist, small local companies are finding it increasingly difficult to maintain their ability to compete on price alone. However, supporting someone local may help create the possibility of sustaining an expert with experience and knowledge to talk with before deciding on a specific solution to some problem. And you can't do that by talking with an Amazon employee. I've lived long enough to see the systematic demise of local expert talent in retail establishments in parallel with the very tempting ability to buy from regional and national outlets offering good products at prices a local retail shop can't easily approach. But buying locally isn't a guarantee of re-establishing local experts in retail outlets, either. It's just creates the possibility for it. And not doing it pretty much guarantees the continued loss of access to expert talent in retail stores. (You can hire them, of course. But that's a different story.)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 17, 2016, 03:56:07 pm
This is just like when people complained that the Wii U controller didn't have unlimited range and function as another portable. People just expect more. selling 100 dollars worth of digital titles for 60 ain't enough. It's gotta have a cartridge port, just like all those other plug and play devices out there. O wait, there's only one that did that.

I'm not complaining. It sounds like Microsoft has given me everything I've asked for this time. Oh wait... :P
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: KingMike on July 17, 2016, 05:21:05 pm
Just mod an old xbox and load it with all the retro systems!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KumB340gtUo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KumB340gtUo)

If we go back to 2006 when the Virtual Console was first announced, people were probably saying the same thing.
Yet 10 years later, obviously there's been enough of a market to make it worth Nintendo's while.

Having to test stuff is probably they didn't include Castlevania III with the first two.
(I realize it includes the two one-off mappers MMC2 and MMC6. But I'd imagine MMC2 was simple enough for them, and it sounds like MMC6 is mostly similar to the already included MMC3. Is the PRG-RAM stuff the only difference?)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on July 17, 2016, 05:52:08 pm
I'm not on earth to tell people how they should spend their time or money...I just think this is a neat thing, and the wonderful thing about it is that I get to have that opinion, and nobody can make me change my mind.

It's an uncomplicated piece of hardware that is attractive and I'm going to guess will not require one single iota of tech support to get working.

I sold a dude my NES and bought a Wii, and the dude complained to me that the games wouldn't boot, it was just blinking on and off. I explained to him first that the internet is wrong and you should not use window cleaner to clean it. I explained to him second that you can insert the cartridge, press power, if it doesn't boot, shift the cartridge to the left in the slot, press reset, then shift the cartridge to the right in the slot, reset, and repeat until the game boots. Worked for me for decades now.

You'd think people never owned NES systems before. But this new Mini NES won't require any such tomfoolery.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Disch on July 17, 2016, 06:07:04 pm
it sounds like MMC6 is mostly similar to the already included MMC3. Is the PRG-RAM stuff the only difference?)

The only significant one, yes.  And whether or not that's "significant" is questionable -- as emulators could get away with emulating MMC6 games as if they were MMC3 and they'd play just fine.

I explained to him second that you can insert the cartridge, press power, if it doesn't boot, shift the cartridge to the left in the slot, press reset, then shift the cartridge to the right in the slot, reset, and repeat until the game boots.

The CIC (anti-piracy mechanism) is the reason it does that crap.  The blinking screen is caused by a CIC desync so the NES thinks you're running an unauthorized cartridge and refuses to play it.  There's no other mechanical reason why games were so hard to get working on the NES.  And in fact... on the toploader... they weren't -- because the CIC was removed.  Toploader will run whatever you throw at it 99.9% of the time.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 17, 2016, 06:30:47 pm
Quote
I'm not on earth to tell people how they should spend their time or money...I just think this is a neat thing

I do too now that my specific needs can be taken care of in a satisfactory manner elsewhere.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Sliver X on July 17, 2016, 07:33:02 pm
Quote
The CIC (anti-piracy mechanism) is the reason it does that crap.  The blinking screen is caused by a CIC desync so the NES thinks you're running an unauthorized cartridge and refuses to play it.  There's no other mechanical reason why games were so hard to get working on the NES.  And in fact... on the toploader... they weren't -- because the CIC was removed.  Toploader will run whatever you throw at it 99.9% of the time.

It's also really easy to fix this in a toaster unit if you cut pin 4 on the CIC chip. I did this myself to a unit in February and the results were splendid.

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I do too now that my specific needs can be taken care of in a satisfactory manner elsewhere.

My three year old kid has less of a sense of entitlement than you've displayed in this thread. If you don't like the new unit, don't buy it. Nintendo doesn't owe you shit.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 17, 2016, 09:44:59 pm
Quote
My three year old kid has less of a sense of entitlement than you've displayed in this thread. If you don't like the new unit, don't buy it. Nintendo doesn't owe you shit.

EDIT: You know, even though I feel like I had the right to say what I did here I'm just gonna remove my comment. No sense in throwing gas on a fire.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: resq on July 18, 2016, 02:46:29 am
My three year old kid has less of a sense of entitlement than you've displayed in this thread. If you don't like the new unit, don't buy it. Nintendo doesn't owe you shit.
Ye but hey you know video games serious bidness. ;D
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 18, 2016, 02:59:34 am
Ye but hey you know video games serious bidness. ;D

Maybe I was just so disappointed because of how difficult it is for me to masturbate to anything that isn't in HD. ;)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: cccmar on July 19, 2016, 04:58:49 am
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/hallelujah-wisdom-tree-gives-the-classic-mini-nes-a-holy-and-wholly-unlicensed-counterpart - well, look who wants to jump on the bandwagon. :D If this keeps up we can expect the Action 52: Reloaded kickstarter or something along these lines very soon.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Panzer88 on July 19, 2016, 03:04:18 pm
how is this any different from the atari flashback, or a retron? also where is the famicom version?

Pros: potentially less lag than using a traditional emulator
Cons: still an emulator (not using genuine hardware), limited A/V output, limited library, wrong colors (don't match an original system)

Honestly it's clear nintendo isn't taking this very seriously if there isn't even a way to buy games individually, and the thing has clearly gotta be super cheap to make so the quality can only be so good.

it's just sad when fans, hobbyists, and part timers produce products of such higher quality than nintendo.

Let me put it to you this way Spoony, if this didn't have Nintendo's name branded on it, would you even give it a second look? If not, then how does putting nintendo on the front change anything.

I'm not saying it won't sell, it will sell like hot cakes, but for those in the know, it's a bad, lazy design. This is from the company that uses iNES headers in their VC ROMs.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on July 19, 2016, 03:38:19 pm
for those in the know, it's a bad, lazy design.

Or, is it an economical, market-based design? They know that anyone with half a brain and a decent computer can play any NES games they want to.

Why not jump in and appeal to their loyalists with a cheap, sleek, simple console that has HD output?

Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MathUser2929 on July 19, 2016, 06:42:09 pm
Emulators require you to buy expensive equipment in most cases. Like a pc or a phone, then you gotta buy a controller. This plug in play thing only requires you have a tv, which most people already have. 60 bucks and you get 150 dollars worth of virtual console games.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jink640 on July 19, 2016, 06:56:47 pm
Emulators require you to buy expensive equipment in most cases. Like a pc or a phone, then you gotta buy a controller. This plug in play thing only requires you have a tv, which most people already have. 60 bucks and you get 150 dollars worth of virtual console games.
I can get a computer that far surpasses the system requirements for NES games at ~$30. That includes everything needed except for a monitor, which a TV can act quite well as. also controllers are only $10. that will bring you to about $50 once you include shipping.
(unless you got amazon prime, which is free 2 day shipping. so why the hell don't you have it yet? Just do it.)

Honestly, the only reason anyone on this board should buy this thing is to tell Nintendo "make more things like this".
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MathUser2929 on July 19, 2016, 07:06:10 pm
Yeah, but then you'd have to live with the shame of still using windows xp in 2016. Thanks for the advice tho. I do want Nintendo to make more things like this. Mini SNES here I come! If anyone should be profiting off their own systems it's Nintendo.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jonk on July 19, 2016, 07:15:32 pm
Emulators require you to buy expensive equipment in most cases. Like a pc or a phone, then you gotta buy a controller. This plug in play thing only requires you have a tv, which most people already have. 60 bucks and you get 150 dollars worth of virtual console games.
There are problems using a tv, as you suggest, though. TVs that are sold as TVs in this market generally buffer their displays and perform other processing behind the scenes, before presenting them frame by frame. The frames themselves are staged accurately. But there is a delay -- a noticeable delay -- between the HDMI input source and the visual presentation on the screen seen by our eyes. For some games, this isn't a problem. But for others, it's terrible. For example, I play a very good game of Dr. Mario and I can't play it satisfactorily on any TV I've tried. This mini-NES unit includes Dr. Mario. But I am pretty certain, given a lot of recent experience already, that existing TV systems will NOT play it satisfactorily for expert players. It may play okay for learners. But I very much doubt it, for expert players.

I can play Dr. Mario quite satisfactorily on at least some computer monitors that accept HDMI (those I've tried.) This was using an original NES unit where I've added any of several rather cheap ($20) composite to HDMI converters that are available (this (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009A6PJKQ) or this (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018DJJM6C) or this (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0152E8UEG).) So even with the mini-NES, I think some of us will still require a computer monitor accepting HDMI, as opposed to using a TV.

But as I also mentioned earlier, you do NOT have to buy expensive equipment these days, though. The ORDOID-C2 board includes H.265 4K at 60fps and H.264 4K at 30fps (using an on-board VPU) that drives a standard 4k HDMI w/audio. It includes a Mali-450 GPU that includes 3 pixel-processors and 2 vertex shader processors, and includes 4 USB 2.0 host ports, a USB OTG port, ethernet connector for a router cable, plus a 2GHz quad core cpu with 2GB DDR3 ram. That costs $40 (in single retail units.) Existing software already supports smart TV support for netflix, amazon prime, and a bevy of other such services; plus supports acting as a local area media server; plus provides arcade and quite a few game machine emulators already. A difference is that the new mini-NES unit under discussion includes two Wii connectors, which the ODROID-C2 lacks. But the C2 does have 4 USB 2.0 connectors which can be used with controllers already being applied with USB with existing emulators ported to the C2.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jink640 on July 19, 2016, 07:33:35 pm
Yeah, but then you'd have to live with the shame of still using windows xp in 2016. Thanks for the advice tho. I do want Nintendo to make more things like this. Mini SNES here I come! If anyone should be profiting off their own systems it's Nintendo.
Im using windows 7, and have 0 problems. my brother uses windows 10, and has 0 problems. are there any I should know about?

And I would have far more interest in the mini SNES, even if just for a set piece.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Ravenfreak on July 19, 2016, 10:49:45 pm
Is it bad that I actually want one of these, despite that you can't add any new ROMs to it and they don't plan on adding more? Anyways, Sega seems to be ahead of Nintendo, but the Atgames Genesis clones are crap! And since this will be an official Nintendo licensed product, it'll be high quality. And since I do have a Wii U, my understanding is the controller will be compatible with the Wii U too. (Which I do own one of those...)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on July 19, 2016, 11:18:17 pm
Pros: potentially less lag than using a traditional emulator
Cons: still an emulator (not using genuine hardware), limited A/V output, limited library, wrong colors (don't match an original system)
I would think HDMI output would be more than enough for the intended audience.  And we don't know the slightest thing about what they'll be doing with the color palette yet.  I would presume it would be the same as the Wii/Wii U/3DS Virtual Console, and doesn't that match an original system well enough?  Seems to me plenty of people don't even like the true "original" NES palette anyway – hence the different palettes available in the NESRGB mod.
http://retrorgb.com/nespics.html

It's more than a little early to say that they "taking this seriously".
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jeville on July 20, 2016, 12:31:58 am
Wii U VC is worse than Wii VC. Wii VC doesn't have the dark filter that Wii U has.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MisterJones on July 20, 2016, 07:06:03 am
I can get a computer that far surpasses the system requirements for NES games at ~$30. That includes everything needed except for a monitor, which a TV can act quite well as. also controllers are only $10. that will bring you to about $50 once you include shipping.
(unless you got amazon prime, which is free 2 day shipping. so why the hell don't you have it yet? Just do it.)

Honestly, the only reason anyone on this board should buy this thing is to tell Nintendo "make more things like this".


You didnt account the price of the games, and licensing seem to be a big part of that price tag
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MathUser2929 on July 20, 2016, 07:48:29 am
Im using windows 7, and have 0 problems. my brother uses windows 10, and has 0 problems. are there any I should know about?

And I would have far more interest in the mini SNES, even if just for a set piece.

I'm talking about that 30 dollar used pc you intended to buy.

Edit: Oh you mean one of those little handheld pc's. Well, you can't just spend 30 dollars and call it a day. You got to buy a ac adapter, mouse, keyboard, controller, hdmi cord, then you gotta download and install an OS, emulators, roms. Good luck gifting that to your parents.

I can't believe you'd rather give your parents this:

(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u533/MathUser2929/nes%20soap_zps78mx68bu.jpg)

Instead of this:

(http://i.imgur.com/FuA1KpU.png)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: PresidentLeever on July 20, 2016, 08:39:39 am
Um we all already have decent enough PCs for NES emulation.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: FAST6191 on July 20, 2016, 08:50:14 am
"You got to buy a"
ac adapter
Many TVs have a USB port on capable of powering it. So £1 for a cable.

Mouse
You reckon? Phones/tablets do a lot for remote control. Still £1 for a nice enough mouse actually. Seriously, I have a bunch of poundland mice in service, they will never be gaming or graphics editor grade but they are optical, feel OK and have a scroll wheel.

Keyboard
Again I am not sure it is necessary and I have not seen a £1 keyboard so I might have to contemplate this. That or consider that most serious things here are either done over SSH or have an on screen keyboard.

controller
This is tricky as to whether I go bluetooth, 360 USB or something else, or did you mean media remote. I do splash out for remotes here if I can not reliably expect network control just because and I don't know how cheap they can go. I would say HDMI cec but that is a bit of a joke.

hdmi cord
£1 again.

"then you gotta download and install an OS, emulators, roms."
http://www.berryterminal.com/doku.php/berryboot

"I can't believe you'd rather give your parents this:"
That case is poor, I would have hoped they had at least heard of acetone washing but eh. Crappy 3d printing is not the only option either http://thepihut.com/collections/raspberry-pi-cases?sort_by=price-ascending differs from commercial in only that they don't have mould marks for CE and whatever else splashed over them.
Also a device that also doubles as a serious media box and also does OK at web browsing, maybe netbook grade useful and streets ahead of any "smart" TV. This vs similarly priced system for limited amount of older games only.

Granted my parents/grandparents either taught me a significant chunk of what I know or are used to it from me, however I would still say it is viable for those that would colour match their DVD player to the TV.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MathUser2929 on July 20, 2016, 09:46:25 am
You have to go along way to prove a point. You can't control a pc with a controller unless you install some software that does that and make it auto boot. I imagine navigating a desktop with a dpad can't be too great. If you wanna use a mouse then you have to get a extra long cord that runs to a couch from your tv since your pc has to be plugged into a tv with a short 1 dollar cord. Don't tell me you'd use a wireless mouse cause I had one. You gotta shut it off when you aren't using it otherwise it drains the battery. The slightest nudge activates it again. Good luck convincing people you just gave them a good gift, not the cheapest of cheap pc's. For extra LOL's you should leave the 1 dollar price tag on all the parts you buy for it.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on July 20, 2016, 09:52:19 am
Wii U VC is worse than Wii VC. Wii VC doesn't have the dark filter that Wii U has.
Huh.  Are there websites documenting this sort of thing in bitter, exhaustive detail?
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jink640 on July 20, 2016, 10:22:10 am
I'm talking about that 30 dollar used pc you intended to buy.

Edit: Oh you mean one of those little handheld pc's. Well, you can't just spend 30 dollars and call it a day. You got to buy a ac adapter, mouse, keyboard, controller, hdmi cord, then you gotta download and install an OS, emulators, roms. Good luck gifting that to your parents.

I can get a computer that far surpasses the system requirements for NES games at ~$30. That includes everything needed except for a monitor, which a TV can act quite well as. also controllers are only $10. that will bring you to about $50 once you include shipping.

And no, I meant a windows 7 desktop. Its not difficult to grab parts from places like Amazon or Ebay and put them into a box. You can also find hard drives with OS installed for a very low price. The internet sure is a great place sometimes  :)


You didnt account the price of the games, and licensing seem to be a big part of that price tag


I am confused by this statement.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jeville on July 20, 2016, 11:00:36 am
Huh.  Are there websites documenting this sort of thing in bitter, exhaustive detail?
Not that I know of. You can see the comparison with Paper Mario screenshots here (http://i.imgur.com/HxmVBMv.png).

We know the Wii U VC could have done better with its brightness when compared to NES Remix (a Wii U game) emulation seen here (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=162600487&postcount=74).
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MisterJones on July 20, 2016, 11:13:45 am
You are saying that it would only cost you 30 bucks to make such a device, in contrast to the 60 usd price tag. However, you need to take into account the cost of each of the 30 games included, which, as much as I would like to, arent free
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jink640 on July 20, 2016, 11:20:31 am
You are saying that it would only cost you 30 bucks to make such a device, in contrast to the 60 usd price tag. However, you need to take into account the cost of each of the 30 games included, which, as much as I would like to, arent free
Oh. You are talking about why Nintendo is pricing this at $60 rather than something lower? I am aware that they have to increase price for licensing, I'm just saying that as a consumer this product holds little value to those who are not collectors. I never said that it would only take 30 to make the Mini Nes, I said you could make something much better at around the same price. Which is true.  :P
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Chronosplit on July 20, 2016, 12:31:36 pm
Emulators require you to buy expensive equipment in most cases. Like a pc or a phone, then you gotta buy a controller. This plug in play thing only requires you have a tv, which most people already have. 60 bucks and you get 150 dollars worth of virtual console games.
NES emulation tends to run on any toaster though.  I was able to run the latest emulators at full speed using a Pentium IV I saved from the trash heap after enabling DirectDraw where needed.  That was the only compromise.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Disch on July 20, 2016, 12:38:27 pm
NES emulation tends to run on any toaster though.  I was able to run the latest emulators at full speed using a Pentium IV I saved from the trash heap after enabling DirectDraw where needed.  That was the only compromise.

NESticle ran fullspeed on mid-range PCs back in 1996.

If your only concern is getting games running and you aren't concerned with accuracy, you can make an NES emu that plays on a hamburger.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: FAST6191 on July 20, 2016, 12:50:59 pm
You have to go along way to prove a point. You can't control a pc with a controller unless you install some software that does that and make it auto boot. I imagine navigating a desktop with a dpad can't be too great. If you wanna use a mouse then you have to get a extra long cord that runs to a couch from your tv since your pc has to be plugged into a tv with a short 1 dollar cord. Don't tell me you'd use a wireless mouse cause I had one. You gotta shut it off when you aren't using it otherwise it drains the battery. The slightest nudge activates it again. Good luck convincing people you just gave them a good gift, not the cheapest of cheap pc's. For extra LOL's you should leave the 1 dollar price tag on all the parts you buy for it.
You started with a list of theoretically expensive extras that would have nudged the initial purchase price up into something untenable when compared to the device the thread started with might retail at. I attempted to counter it. Sure if I purchased a USB charger from a mobile phone shop, a HDMI lead from monstrosity (because apparently those digital leads benefit from the theoretically increased quality of the connections and cables), decided I needed mouse, keyboard and controller, a big boy massive SD card and got general high street prices for them it adds up rapidly. It is hardly the case here though. I agree it is more than the plain board prices being thrown around, they are not particularly troublesome though and can be easily rendered in the not a lot of money range.

My PC does auto boot, as do I dare say most out there. I might have to disable the keyboard and mouse connected checks in BIOS though if I am going controller only.
Some free software (I don't know what people are using instead of joy2key right now)? Madness.
You would be right though that plain dpad (as opposed to thumbstick or something) sucks for conventional start bar and windows UI. I hate it but modern windows does come with a tablet driven interface and there is also the concept that gets dubbed the "10-foot user interface" made for all sorts of media players and emulator frontends.

Modern wireless mice do better, also is a tiny little switch on the bottom/side of the thing is so bad? Is sliding down the cover on the remote to access the DVD functions, let alone getting up to fetch remote for a lesser used device, such an imposition? I did also mention remote control via phone and tablet and whatever else.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Bahamut ZERO on July 20, 2016, 01:53:19 pm
Joy2Key's gotten massively more user friendly in the last few year. Compared to the older build I tried using years ago the current version of the program is like Xpadder on steroids.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MathUser2929 on July 20, 2016, 02:57:38 pm
You started with a list of theoretically expensive extras that would have nudged the initial purchase price up into something untenable when compared to the device the thread started with might retail at. I attempted to counter it. Sure if I purchased a USB charger from a mobile phone shop, a HDMI lead from monstrosity (because apparently those digital leads benefit from the theoretically increased quality of the connections and cables), decided I needed mouse, keyboard and controller, a big boy massive SD card and got general high street prices for them it adds up rapidly. It is hardly the case here though. I agree it is more than the plain board prices being thrown around, they are not particularly troublesome though and can be easily rendered in the not a lot of money range.

My PC does auto boot, as do I dare say most out there. I might have to disable the keyboard and mouse connected checks in BIOS though if I am going controller only.
Some free software (I don't know what people are using instead of joy2key right now)? Madness.
You would be right though that plain dpad (as opposed to thumbstick or something) sucks for conventional start bar and windows UI. I hate it but modern windows does come with a tablet driven interface and there is also the concept that gets dubbed the "10-foot user interface" made for all sorts of media players and emulator frontends.

Modern wireless mice do better, also is a tiny little switch on the bottom/side of the thing is so bad? Is sliding down the cover on the remote to access the DVD functions, let alone getting up to fetch remote for a lesser used device, such an imposition? I did also mention remote control via phone and tablet and whatever else.

I had a wireless mouse not that long ago, and I had to replace the batteries almost every week, even though I had switched it off when I went somewhere. You can argue that 30 dollar pc's are just as good as a 60 dollar nes as long as someone with tech knowledge is around to set up the pc and find 1 dollar parts for it. But with the new system you don't have to know anyone with computer knowledge to set up a OS for you. You just take it out of the box hook it to the tv, plug in the controller and pick a game. No case to buy, it comes with a beautfiul one by default. I don't expect a rush in raspberry sales this november when the NES mini is launched.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: FAST6191 on July 20, 2016, 03:39:45 pm
The £1 parts were not one off auctions and stock clearances as much as fairly consistent lines (at least until I come along and buy them all) from one of the more common shops in the country; not counting rivals selling much the same thing there are between 2 and 4 depending upon how you want to count town borders, said town being 130K people.

Not sure what to say on the mice. You would not catch me with one, though the only wireless things I like to deal with are the photons going from the screen to my eyeballs and the sounds from the headphones to my ears, but I have played with quite a few and they more or less do what you need these days.

I also don't expect a rush on sales (emulation is hardly a hidden concept and most people that want such a thing probably already have it or have other means), however the computer knowledge barrier is not half of what it was. Sure I would imagine people struggling to get PS1, N64 and Amiga emulators set up (mainly as they frustrate me often enough with all the BIOS and plugin and extraneous files) but it is not like teaching breakpoints or going back to the dos era.
At the same time I don't expect a major rush in sales for these either, at least as far as people getting one for either general or reliable use.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Panzer88 on July 20, 2016, 04:09:13 pm
the whole argument of this device competing with PC emulators is silly, from either angle.

you can easily run an emulator on your computer if you want to do that, and there would be no purpose to buy this, but that's not the audience of this device.

I'm fully for nintendo doing something LIKE this, a device you plug into your TV, again, the quality is just lacking, there are already better products on the market that you can buy and plug into your TV.

my main issues with this product come back to quality, the quality of the emulation is poor, the hardware is running on has to be poor based on price, the AV choices are limited, no support for NTSC NES, PAL NES, or FC games, no light gun support, etc.

EDIT:

the retrousb AVS is a vastly superior product

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/05/retrousbs_hdmi_nes_the_avs_is_heading_for_a_summer_release

or just get a 2nd hand NES

hell, I hate the Retron, and that'd still be a better product

http://www.stoneagegamer.com/retron5.html
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Sliver X on July 20, 2016, 07:24:55 pm
Quote
You have to go along way to prove a point. You can't control a pc with a controller unless you install some software that does that and make it auto boot. I imagine navigating a desktop with a dpad can't be too great. If you wanna use a mouse then you have to get a extra long cord that runs to a couch from your tv since your pc has to be plugged into a tv with a short 1 dollar cord. Don't tell me you'd use a wireless mouse cause I had one. You gotta shut it off when you aren't using it otherwise it drains the battery. The slightest nudge activates it again. Good luck convincing people you just gave them a good gift, not the cheapest of cheap pc's. For extra LOL's you should leave the 1 dollar price tag on all the parts you buy for it.

In 2009 I designed a mini ITX PC I called "Consoul" which was basically a homebrew console design:

(http://sliverx.arc-nova.org/consoul3.jpg)

It ran a hyper stripped build of Windows XP x64 I made with a program called nLite, and was entirely controlled by Dualshock 2s (Later on, Dualshock 3s), using an emulator/media frontend called GameEx.

It emulated over two dozen arcade and console machines (With tens of thousands of screenshots for them all), had about 40 PC games, all my movies/TV shows and music on it. It could also rip DVDs to AVIs (And burn DVDs from existing AVIs), or rip them to ISOs and play them or burn them, rip PSX, Sega CD, PCE-CD discs (And add them to their respective emulator's game list), rip or burn audio CDs as well as play BluRay movies. It also acted like a big ass NAS box on my home network.

All of that was controlled by hitting buttons on a gamepad: JoyToKey was the backbone of a lot of it, along with dozens of batch scripts and AutoIT programs I wrote. The only part that kind of sucked was using a web browser with analog sticks to move the mouse, but I had an on screen keyboard that allowed typing (And later the DS3 bluetooth keypad).

I made a few successor units with better hardware and more capabilities (Giga Drive and Neo Drive), but I guess my point is that making a dedicated emulator box doesn't require interacting with the machine like it's a desktop PC.

(http://sliverx.arc-nova.org/neosetup.jpg)

I think the total cost was about $400 for the hardware, and required a level of ability and knowledge to create that the vast majority of the world does not have nor would care to have.

So yeah, even after designing things like this I can totally see the appeal of the mini NES. I probably won't buy one, but I can see why a lot of people would. It's ass easy to use, cheap, and probably has at least one or two games most people would remember playing when they were kids.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on July 20, 2016, 11:21:28 pm
the quality of the emulation is poor, the hardware is running on has to be poor based on price, the AV choices are limited
You've mentioned that at least twice now.  How can you possibly know a darn thing about the emulation of a product that hasn't even been released yet!?

It suddenly occurs to me: maybe part of the reason they're doing this is just to consume the leftover parts from the millions of Wii U units they were expecting to sell.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Panzer88 on July 20, 2016, 11:33:43 pm
I'd be willing to bet $50 USD that the emulation is going to be the quality of existing VC titles or lower, which is to say low, anyone confident enough to bet that it will suddenly, magically be higher quality, they've decided to turn over a new leaf even though the hardware will be considerably weaker than their existing platforms?

I don't think so man.

It was Nintendo that claimed the original 3DS wasn't powerful enough to emulate Super Nintendo games properly, so they do it on the N3DS
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on July 21, 2016, 01:32:38 am
I'dbe willing to bet $50 USD that the emulation is going to bethe quality of existing VC titles or lower, which is to say low
I agree, it's highly unlikely that it's going to be better, but what's so bad about the emulation of existing VC titles, aside from the darker palette?  Is it demonstrably inferior to what you could get with, say, Nestopia or FCEUX?

Quote
It was Nintendo that claimed the original 3DS wasn't powerful enough to emulate Super Nintendo games properly, so they do it on the N3DS
That was exactly my thought earlier in the thread.  Presumably, they refused to compromise on emulation quality and release some slow, incomplete emulator, even if that meant denying SNES games to the existing old 3DS install base.  So why would the compromise on emulation quality here?
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Panzer88 on July 21, 2016, 01:53:22 am
They've been compromising since the beginning of the VC.

There are known bugs in games with no patches, some games run differently than on the original system, etc. It's embarrassing when volunteer emulator authors can produce something better than Nintendo themselves. They use per game hacks, we're talking 10 years behind the current state of emulation, which in and of itself is still trying to compete with an actual original system.

We shouldn't even have to be comparing this to other emulators, we should be able to compare this to an original NES and it should pass with flying colors.

Nintendo as a 1st party has the resources and should be expected to be better than other hardware vendors. If the AVS can play NES games better than the NES mini or any VC version, then something is wrong, a third party vendor shouldn't be beating Nintendo at their own game.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: FAST6191 on July 21, 2016, 05:06:51 am
They've been compromising since the beginning of the VC.

There are known bugs in games with no patches, some games run differently than on the original system, etc. It's embarrassing when volunteer emulator authors can produce something better than Nintendo themselves. They use per game hacks, we're talking 10 years behind the current state of emulation, which in and of itself is still trying to compete with an actual original system.

We shouldn't even have to be comparing this to other emulators, we should be able to compare this to an original NES and it should pass with flying colors.

Nintendo as a 1st party has the resources and should be expected to be better than other hardware vendors. If the AVS can play NES games better than the NES mini or any VC version, then something is wrong, a third party vendor shouldn't be beating Nintendo at their own game.

So you are Nintendo and don't want to validate any emulator development and can't use any code from them or buy one in (are you Sega now?). So you have some nice old specs, though probably nothing so nice/useful as nesdev, and a relatively short while to build an emulator for what amounts to an embedded system. Emulation coding is not necessarily taught in schools and you are working for game industry money anyway.
I can see game specific hack jobs and crude emulation being the result of that. It is embarrassing to see but I can still see it.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on July 21, 2016, 09:02:36 am
Has anyone thought also, that the components necessary to make a new system that will play old cartridges as well as any new ones that get put out (with modern tech!) and contain HDMI output, and not be so power consumptive as to melt the thing, weren't just expensive in the 80's, they are probably rarer and far more expensive now.

Things increase in price when there are fewer of them available, and when they age. Vacuum tubes for guitar amplifiers are a good example; they are very pricey these days, and were not always so, or so I am given to think.

To manufacture a brand spanking new NES that has HDMI output and takes carts would drive the pricepoint out of the intended market's interest window, I think.

tl;dr = It doesn't have to be too expensive.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: FAST6191 on July 21, 2016, 10:42:18 am
Though rarity does not help the valve thing is also audiophool tax -- various people got it into their heads that valves sound better and thus various people pay for it.

Components wise
http://gamesx.com/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=schematics:nes-001-schematic---cpu_-ppu_-ram_-cic.png

Nothing major there, indeed I imagine anything that does not have a pin compatible descendant (CIC aside but you can junk that I reckon) can be made in a FPGA... and apparently someone made the lot
http://fpganes.blogspot.co.uk/ and https://github.com/strigeus/fpganes

Even without that I have never quite looked into the famiclones and why they fail, hardware wise anyway.

Now if you wanted to emulate the mappers as well there might be something more to it. Equally with it being a game console you inherently have a digital signal you can feed to any old upscaler (and maybe/hopefully CRT emulator) that spits out a valid HDMI signal.
16 bit era devices would be a considerable feat though doable. Beyond that would be crazy from where I sit, though a FPGA driven N64 clone would be something I like to see, at least until I remember once more how awful the N64 was -- I think I am more likely to take the "Sonic Adventure was legitimately a classic" set seriously before I take the "N64 was an unsung classic" lot seriously, both seem to exist though.

In any case it would still be harder than squirting an emulator pack onto some old ARM board and calling it a day.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Panzer88 on July 21, 2016, 12:07:21 pm
So you are Nintendo and don't want to validate any emulator development and can't use any code from them or buy one in (are you Sega now?). So you have some nice old specs, though probably nothing so nice/useful as nesdev, and a relatively short while to build an emulator for what amounts to an embedded system. Emulation coding is not necessarily taught in schools and you are working for game industry money anyway.
I can see game specific hack jobs and crude emulation being the result of that. It is embarrassing to see but I can still see it.

I'm crying a river over here for how hard it is for this huge corporation to get the job done right. For starters they've been demonizing emulation in the industry for years even though when properly licensed it's a great, and cost effective solution (see Frank cifaldi's GDC talk). Furthermore they did borrow from hobby emulation (see the iNES header) just without any attribution. And finally, you're putting a lot of limitations on them that didn't have to exist, they could have hired a professional to do a better job, for example. They just didn't want to. In fact if you look at the team that got hired to do most of the Sega titles on VC (M2) they did a much better now job, so there's no excuse.

But really I'm not upset at "Nintendo"

Spoony, if "Nintendo" wanted to make an NES, they could manufacture it in volumes that would make it affordable. Here's the thing, they aren't releasing anything like this in Japan, there is a large possibility that they don't have Nintendo engineers working on this and it is outsourced to an external company. Furthermore, this is likely the pet project of someone at Nintendo treehouse at NoA, not a project from the top of the company, so it's not surprising that this is the result.

It's a shame it's not a bigger project with more momentum behind it but frankly most of Nintendo's attention right now is on NX. And realistically the quality of this device doesn't matter, people will buy it anyway, they'll play it anyway this holiday season, and then they'll soon forget about it and that will buy Nintendo the time they need until NX. They're not planning on supporting this long term, it has a fixed number of games.

Heck, even with the VC, every time they release a new console they start over from scratch with the library, so it's not something that you can realistically invest in and continue to get more content in the long run
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MegaManJuno on July 21, 2016, 12:58:00 pm
Maybe I'm misremembering, but wasn't it found that the Famicom Mini/NES Classics releases for GBA were basically running PocketNES?  :huh:
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: FAST6191 on July 21, 2016, 01:30:57 pm
There were a few other nes "ports" running pocketnes on the GBA. http://www.gutenberg.us/articles/pocketnes has a bit more. Nintendo's classic nes/famicom mini series did its own thing as far as I know.

As for Panzer88's reply I agree.  I don't know if I can say they painted themselves into a corner but they seem to act like they have where others are reaping the rewards of playing nice with others. I liked that talk as well, even linked it round here a few months back http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,21667.0.html and highly suggest it for all replying here, probably not before you watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5miMbqYB4E but makes a nice double bill.

On the ines header I am not sure I can count that. That they did not lose it speaks to a certain level of incompetence but it is not going to ammo for me calling hypocrite on their stance on emulation (if others have never read it then have a giggle https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp ).

Back on volumes I am sitting here wondering if the cheap and cheerful silicon fab places (others reading some of the much larger process sizes, because it is not like this will need something crazy small, have been reduced to the levels which mere mortals can just about afford to use if you know where to look).
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jonk on July 21, 2016, 04:17:11 pm
As for Panzer88's reply I agree.  I don't know if I can say they painted themselves into a corner but they seem to act like they have where others are reaping the rewards of playing nice with others. I liked that talk as well, even linked it round here a few months back http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,21667.0.html and highly suggest it for all replying here, probably not before you watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5miMbqYB4E but makes a nice double bill.
I hadn't seen the thread until now. I'll listen soon.

Back on volumes I am sitting here wondering if the cheap and cheerful  silicon fab places (others reading some of the much larger process sizes, because it is not like this will need something crazy small, have been reduced to the levels which mere mortals can just about afford to use if you know where to look).
This part is pretty confusing to me. I'd appreciate a clearer statement? I have worked with FABs, including those who broker their services, and I'm not sure exactly what you are wanting to say here. I get the "volumes" part and how that may relate to a FAB. But what exactly are you thinking about?

Now I'll try and read between the lines. I think you are saying that high volumes and FAB production goes hand-in-hand. So if you are talking about high volumes, then it is perfectly reasonable to consider accessing a FAB process. So far, that's true.

Note: I'd add that even if you are talking about relatively small volumes, it can make sense to consider accessing a FAB. FABs need to run pretty much 24/7, if possible. A FAB owner may (if they aren't a top of the line FAB used by a major chip supplier, anyway) only need their FAB for 12 hours a day (or less.) And they want to sell the remaining time. For a long time now, there are brokers who specialize in selling access to such FABs. And you can even do this on a "single wafer" run, too, at reasonable costs. I bought a single wafer and processing for $5k, some years back, in fact. There are other costs -- cutting the wafer into dies, testing the dies and binning them, wire bonding them into packages, and so on. But the point here is that you don't even need high volume anymore to reasonably consider a custom ASIC design FAB'd on a brokered FAB process somewhere. It's done all the time.

It is also true that the highest end FABs, those FAB processes which provide unique advantages to their owners, pretty much are NEVER brokered to anyone. This is the problem that faced MIPS, for example, when it wanted to field the then-new R2000 series parts. To compete with Intel and Motorola, who at the time were FABing out their high end chips to a buying market, MIPS couldn't access their FAB processes because neither of them would sell any time. So MIPS had to use processes which had about 1/10th the number of equivalent gates (inverters and transmission lines) and had of course much larger feature sizes, as well, and so were slower (or at the same gate count and clock rates would be lots more power hungry.) This was a huge hurdle to climb over. But they managed to do quite well at the time, given that they only had access to third tier, rather old FAB processes. The story here is that only the owners of the very best FAB processes get to use those processes. If you are shopping around for brokered FAB time, then you get to use 2nd or 3rd tier older equipment and processes. But at least they are mature and fairly cheap.

You and I, assuming we could pony up a few tens of thousands of dollars, could have access to appropriate software and FAB capacity. Nintendo, of course, could access much better processes with many more processing steps and much smaller features. But the NRE (non-refundable engineering) investment would be a lot higher, of course. But the 65C816 (about 22000 transistors) or 6502 (3510 transistors) are VERY SMALL devices to produce. On the better FABs, processing 12" wafers and using somewhat older 90nm feature sizes, you might expect to get a 10 million 6502s from a single wafer, as a rough guess. The early 6502 used 8000nm features and occupied 21mm^2 in area. They sucked up about 60mA at 5V, too, running at 1MHz -- about 300mW. At the 90nm feature size, and assuming other things don't change in a re-FABd design -- they would, though), the new die size would be about 0.0025 mm^2, or about 10,000 times smaller in area. Other things being the same, this would imply 10,000 less capacitance being switched. The power supply voltage could be as little as 1V, but probably would "like" 1.2V. (With typical I/O wanting more like 3V, that might imply some "additions" to work this all out.) But the basic idea is that the new power requirement would be lower by a factor of about 1.2/5/10000, or about 7 microwatts total. However, it's even better than that because NMOS chews up a LOT more power than CMOS. In any case, you'd expect that die to have less than the expected leakage of a typical CR2025 lithium button battery kept on the shelf and unused. In short, you could run that CPU on a lithium battery for about the same time as is the long term shelf life of that same battery. There is no question you could run it for about ten years at least, that way. Of course, there is more to make it useful. That that's a thumbnail sketch of where Nintendo could reach towards, if they wanted to, with an NES cpu. (The power estimates are assuming a clock rate at 1MHz... (the new feature sizes would allow MUCH faster rates, too, of course.)

For a benchmark, keep in mind that about 1/3rd of the current FAB capacity is at 40nm or smaller! So 90nm is almost "easy" these days. About a quarter of the FAB capacity is running at 80nm to 200nm. You and I could probably buy 200nm features, if we shopped around, at rates even a hobbyist might be able to muster. And at 400nm or so, I'm sure of it. And the power requirements would still be very, very low, and the supportable clock rates still far higher than we'd need. If any of us wanted to do a short "run" of chips at larger feature sizes, it would still beat the pants off of those older parts in every meaningful way.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: FAST6191 on July 21, 2016, 06:16:53 pm
In various parts of China it seems some of the old higher gate size processes (sometimes to the point of not being usefully measured in nanometres any more, 90nm is still dreaming territory) are being sold for reasonably cheap -- someone got the old gear/bought an old fab going cheap (cheaper to build from scratch I guess) and tweaked the lithography to be more amenable to small runs. Being old gear apparently yields are nothing special and as it was probably some knackered old wire bonding machine you are not going to have some of the more fun package sizes for the result either. Apparently some are also offering it as a kind of FPGA to burned in silicon model as well but that might have been a slightly different one and I know little more there.
I met the former in car electronics, well motorbike electronics but same difference really, a few years back where someone had a fairly nice controller for some lights and heads up display and that was apparently what happened.

I have the occasional discussion like this and most times I go looking I have not got something back like you can do for PCBs where you just fire off a gerber to a fairly high profile/modern site and bust out the credit card, it still being like it was 15 years ago where it was good to its friends/those in the know and that is not me. A pity really as an alibaba/aliexpress frontend could have some nice things happen, however as it spared me playing with spice I was not too upset.

Probably pointless to think along these lines for Nintendo as I imagine they have real deals in place for their powerpc stuff and all the custom ARM stuff they have, however as you said if we are only contemplating remaking 80's gear and don't need it mil or (aero)space grade (such folks seem to be the main market for a lot of these old embedded chips, see also the occasionally amusing thing where customs/state department/similar gets in a tizzy because someone sold something that was in these old consoles to a country not on the Christmas card list) then it is possibly a different matter. Again I am a few years out now so it might have changed but back then it was a viable alternative, if you could handle the design side of things, to the FGPAs, CPLDs/PAL chips and microcontrollers of the day.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: resq on July 21, 2016, 07:26:22 pm
GameTechUS selling more HiDefNES https://www.game-tech.us/shop/
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jonk on July 21, 2016, 08:12:49 pm
In various parts of China it seems some of the old higher gate size processes (sometimes to the point of not being usefully measured in nanometres any more, 90nm is still dreaming territory) are being sold for reasonably cheap -- someone got the old gear/bought an old fab going cheap (cheaper to build from scratch I guess) and tweaked the lithography to be more amenable to small runs.
I've actually built a small FAB in my garage. I was working on closed loop temperature controls using sapphire light pipes, which is why I did it. And I didn't actually use any of the dangerous gases (silane, phosphine, and arsine) used in actual IC work. Instead, I just backfilled the chamber with dry nitrogen, which is cheap and readily available. And it avoids the VERY DANGEROUS problem caused by having oxygen in the chamber when at high temps (the wafer would be as high as around 1500C in the chamber.) I used a lamp heated environment and water cooled quartz jacket with a nickel reflector chamber (couldn't afford a gold one!) Garden hose for the water. Could get something close to 200C/s rise temperatures in there!

One can actually build ICs in rather modest circumstances. But you do have to have some dangerous gases. States tend to control their use pretty tightly, once delivery is accepted. But cross-state shipments seem to be under almost NO controls (back when I was doing it, anyway.) So there was quite a contrast in applicable laws -- one set for purchase and transport across state boundaries; another completely different set once you've accepted an item and want to start using it.

Being old gear apparently yields are nothing special and as it was probably some knackered old wire bonding machine you are not going to have some of the more fun package sizes for the result either.
I've accepted unbonded dice from Hamamastu and then wire bonded them into specialized packages. I didn't find it difficult to get access to wire bonders I needed.

Apparently some are also offering it as a kind of FPGA to burned in silicon model as well but that might have been a slightly different one and I know little more there. I met the former in car electronics, well motorbike electronics but same difference really, a few years back where someone had a fairly nice controller for some lights and heads up display and that was apparently what happened.
Not sure what you are referring to. I've used FPGAs. But in this context, I guess, I'm not sure where you were headed with this.

I have the occasional discussion like this and most times I go looking I have not got something back like you can do for PCBs where you just fire off a gerber to a fairly high profile/modern site and bust out the credit card, it still being like it was 15 years ago where it was good to its friends/those in the know and that is not me. A pity really as an alibaba/aliexpress frontend could have some nice things happen, however as it spared me playing with spice I was not too upset.
Yeah. The PCB situation is very nice these days. But the IC tools are getting a lot more uniform, as well. But at the very small feature size it gets back to highly specialized tools again, which may vary for each process and FAB. One thing I do remember a bit about is that until recently (15 years ago) mask generation was pretty 'obvious'. The photomasks tended to look a lot like what was delivered on the resist layer. But as features grew small, the photomasks themselves had to take into account the distortions occurring in the image transfer process. I suppose the best way to describe it is that the image transfer itself applies a "transformation" of the source image (describable by a 2D FFT.) With small feature sizes this transformation is significant in the image plane. One needed to model the transformation and then back it out of the image plane in order to get the needed photomask that had to be produced. It's been a long time, though, and I don't know what is going on these days with features so small.

Probably pointless to think along these lines for Nintendo as I imagine they have real deals in place for their powerpc stuff and all the custom ARM stuff they have, however as you said if we are only contemplating remaking 80's gear and don't need it mil or (aero)space grade (such folks seem to be the main market for a lot of these old embedded chips, see also the occasionally amusing thing where customs/state department/similar gets in a tizzy because someone sold something that was in these old consoles to a country not on the Christmas card list) then it is possibly a different matter. Again I am a few years out now so it might have changed but back then it was a viable alternative, if you could handle the design side of things, to the FGPAs, CPLDs/PAL chips and microcontrollers of the day.
The problem with FPGAs is that they are big, power hungry, and expensive. And ASICs are getting downright close to PCB-like ease. Still, the process matters a lot, too. So you need process-aware toolsets. But it still seems like it is almost as easy now to just do an ASIC and be done with it. However, for example, when I worked in chipset testing at Intel we used huge cubes filled with FPGAs to emulate the next generation x86 before committing wafers and an expensive FAB to it. So they certainly have a place. I love the reconfigurability (and would have killed to have it, back in the 1970s) and have bunches of FPGA boards here at home. But they are over-kill for most consumer devices. ASICs are the way to go there.

(In my area, we needed very specialized photodetectors (using one process) and very specialized analog front ends (different process), and all of this had to be in a tiny sealed can with a tiny sapphire window that could be kept cool cheaply and without a huge stack of Peltiers. So wire-bonding was involved. But a custom package also was involved, too.)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: FAST6191 on July 22, 2016, 04:08:39 am
The FPGA stuff was a different but related thing (you are still ultimately getting some custom silicon you promoted yourself) I saw where apparently some would take the transistor arrangements that FPGAs ultimately work under (not sure what goes with the modern approaches with the premade memory cells) and burn you some silicon using it. The end result would be way oversized, inefficient by most metrics and probably expensive but still able to do higher clocks, gobble less current and hopefully dodge the need for programming and odd voltages that most FPGAs still seem to want.

I would be hesitant to receive anything other than a package, however I reckon if all those cheap things can deadbug it and stick a blob a blob of epoxy over then I might have to look back into this.

I agree FPGAs are not the golden toy some think they are, however they do seem to be fit for task for a lot of consumer gear these days. Some even quite beefy as well -- there was a great presentation a few years back on reusing old FPGA devices to build clusters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQb7b71Zn4A
If you are still more in the 80s/early 90s mindset for FPGAs then maybe have a look what goes today. Big, power hungry and expensive is still the case but small enough to fit even with the programming and headers and whatever else you want for operation, still doable under battery power and still possibly cheaper than an ASIC run for board volumes up in the tens of thousands is what goes.
At the same time there are things with substantial gate counts (plus the inclusion of a lot of memory so you don't have to spend lots on making it) that are not even dedicated hobbyist as much as one with a couple of hundred to spare. As Wall street got into it as well it only drove prices down further too.

I will have to look into homebrew fab though, I have been thinking about putting together some cleanroom stuff for some other things and that might tip the balance there towards making it more viable, assuming particle counts/sizes required are similar anyway.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on July 22, 2016, 06:53:09 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAGVilt3Rls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAGVilt3Rls)

Nintendo have put out a commercial for the Mini NES. ...The music sounds like Van Halen was given about 14,000 metric tons of esspresso. :D

Pretty neat lookin' I think. I realize many are unmoved by the limitations of the thing, but I'm gonna try to get one.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: FAST6191 on July 22, 2016, 07:57:33 am
Wow I guess which exec's kid made that awful smash brothers video a few years ago has now finished video maker school.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jonk on July 22, 2016, 10:14:52 am
I would be hesitant to receive anything other than a package, however I reckon if all those cheap things can deadbug it and stick a blob a blob of epoxy over then I might have to look back into this.
It's not so bad. But I also get the point about letting those who do this stuff all the time put the dies into their carriers and do the wirebonding and epoxy packaging for you.

I agree FPGAs are not the golden toy some think they are, however they do seem to be fit for task for a lot of consumer gear these days. Some even quite beefy as well -- there was a great presentation a few years back on reusing old FPGA devices to build clusters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQb7b71Zn4A
Oh, I absolutely LOVE FPGAs. I grew up wirewrapping 7400 series packages into a computer. Got written up by the local papers. That was 1974. "Kid builds computer" kind of thing. Hillsboro Argus was the paper's name. I was 19 years old at the time. After all that effort back then, I think people today live in heaven on earth now and they just don't realize it. FPGAs are a dream come true for me. What galls me is that they are so easy to use today and so readily available and pretty much "no one" understands the god-sent paradise they live in and just how easy it is to learn how to design real, working cpus of their own! Cripes. I literally would have killed for an FPGA in the 1970s and I can only imagine what Turing would have done for a working FPGA board in the late 1940's! People simply have no idea what they have at their hands.

If you are still more in the 80s/early 90s mindset for FPGAs then maybe have a look what goes today. Big, power hungry and expensive is still the case but small enough to fit even with the programming and headers and whatever else you want for operation, still doable under battery power and still possibly cheaper than an ASIC run for board volumes up in the tens of thousands is what goes.
I continually get new boards. I think I have a dozen here now. I may also buy Digilent's Nexys 4 Artix-7 FPGA Trainer Board, soon, too. (I still don't really trust the automated floorplanning in the tools I use, though.)

I will have to look into homebrew fab though, I have been thinking about putting together some cleanroom stuff for some other things and that might tip the balance there towards making it more viable, assuming particle counts/sizes required are similar anyway.
You pretty much need to figure out your process steps, though. The chemicals used in big FABs aren't often (or ever) available to homebrew. Some years ago, I could get arsine shipped from California to my door in Oregon for about $50 and no questions. I've seen that stuff shipped by FedEx and delivered by a totally ignorant man who had NO IDEA what he was carrying in. We kept them in a triple-vault system and that stuff has a TLV of 50 parts per billion. It's DANGEROUS. But in comes the FedEx employee asking for a signature like it was any other package. The US can be pretty slack on cross-state shipping, I guess. That's probably changed some. I made some calls to the Department of Transportation after that event. Something might be different now, especially since a canister of that stuff would make a great way to kill thousands of people real quick and easy. But 20 years ago, it was trivial to get. You will need some connections, plus spend a lot of money making it safe to use. Same with silane, where a canister of that could completely tear apart a steel cabinet made of 1/2 inch steel walls. And phosphine is no slouch, either. There are much safer chemicals that can be used on truly homebrew stuff, if all you want to do is make a solar cell or something. But IC wafers? I'd be interested in what you come up with, if you do seriously engage it. I was happy enough to just work on my temperature control systems and use safe gases, at home. The worst I had to worry about was a fire. And I could handle that.

Bell Labs actually put out a kit for making a chamber and making a solar cell, back in the 1960s, for kids and their families:
(http://www.beatriceco.com/bti/porticus/bell/images/bellkits/se2.jpg) and (http://www.beatriceco.com/bti/porticus/bell/images/bellkits/se1_.jpg)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MathUser2929 on July 22, 2016, 10:32:50 am
The controller cord is really short.

(http://i.imgur.com/qGrHQ0X.gif)

You'll wanna grab one of these:

(http://alexnld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/6b8c2bcaca8c5d7d4d2dab7d.jpg)

Pretty much like getting a WiiU, buying a hard drive is optional but it can make your life better if you get one. Same thing with the short controller cords.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MisterJones on July 22, 2016, 12:36:04 pm
a hard drive? what for
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Chronosplit on July 22, 2016, 12:50:56 pm
a hard drive? what for
From what I hear it doesn't have a direct connection to the VC, but you can get more games from your own Wii-U by using a controller from yours.  I guess a hard drive can store them so it's not a hassle?
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: FAST6191 on July 22, 2016, 01:13:37 pm
On FPGAs I reckon if they have their arduino moment then things will change. I have toyed with some of the new stuff and it is far nicer than old school VHDL and Verilog but not quite enough to tip things, it might even be one of the best candidates for a visual programming language for general use. Equally boards and embedded electronics are nice but I want a PCI card, or I guess USB3.0 with the crazy speeds and low latencies. I truly think the PCI card method is the direction emulators are heading as well. My main hope right now is something interesting shakes loose from the high frequency trading folks.

On this fab at home stuff I think I would want to go and work in one first -- most of what I have comes from reverse engineering and books/classes rather than using it in anger. I doubt the very nice executive tour around Intel's New Mexico plant I had when I was 12 counts for much, though technically that means I could say I have seen it with my own eyes.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jonk on July 22, 2016, 01:23:38 pm
On FPGAs I reckon if they have their arduino moment then things will change.
That would be cool!

One type of microcontroller also provided some "FPGA" peripheral unit, which allowed you to program I/O functionality -- seriously good stuff. It didn't catch on all that well. Higher part costs were part of it. Training barriers, another.

I have toyed with some of the new stuff and it is far nicer than old school VHDL and Verilog but not quite enough to tip things,
I'm definitely still a VHDL/Verilog and manual floorplanning guy.

it might even be one of the best candidates for a visual programming language for general use. Equally boards and embedded electronics are nice but I want a PCI card, or I guess USB3.0 with the crazy speeds and low latencies. I truly think the PCI card method is the direction emulators are heading as well. My main hope right now is something interesting shakes loose from the high frequency trading folks.
The tools needed to support PCI design are expensive, though the prices have come down a lot. Reflection wave equipment isn't nearly as cheap as incident wave. And once again, there is substantial education barriers here, too. I still keep some older ISA bus machines around because it is so darned easy to design and build an ISA bus board. PCI uses serpentine clock lines, and so on. It's a veritable pain. In fact, that is the real reason Intel developed it (I was working there in the group, so I know.) To raise the entry costs of developing motherboards so that they could cut down the number of manufacturers and competition and thereby increase profits. They sold it as "green." But that wasn't the real reason for it. That was the marketing reason.

On this fab at home stuff I think I would want to go and work in one first -- most of what I have comes from reverse engineering and books/classes rather than using it in anger. I doubt the very nice executive tour around Intel's New Mexico plant I had when I was 12 counts for much, though technically that means I could say I have seen it with my own eyes.
It would be fun to go and learn, directly. If you get a chance, go for it!!
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Kallisto on July 28, 2016, 04:14:29 pm
The one thing I have about Nintendo, and their NES-mini is the tired old IPs they have been re-selling over, and over again. They have more IPs under NES that they forgot about.

and

I know Nintendo has a stigma against Fan-translators, so I know that part of the deal will never happen. At least SEGA has embraced the emulation scene in more intimate ways to my surprise.

EDIT:
Reading this thread, and now I got a better picture of what is up with this thing. That is pretty bad if the Mini-NES is way back in emulation.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: A.D.R.I.A.N on July 28, 2016, 11:53:49 pm
I recently saw the trailer for the HD Mini-NES.
$59,99?, That's a bit expensive.
It would cost $1200 pesos here in Mexico.
Still buying it anyway.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jonk on July 29, 2016, 01:19:53 am
I recently saw the trailer for the HD Mini-NES.
$59,99?, That's a bit expensive.
It would cost $1200 pesos here in Mexico.
Still buying it anyway.
Some countries use a comma for a decimal (Germany, for example.) Isn't a Peso about a nickel or so?
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 29, 2016, 01:58:18 am
Quote
Isn't a Peso about a nickel or so?

Yes.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MisterJones on July 29, 2016, 07:39:22 am
His conversion is accurate regardless
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: KaioShin on July 29, 2016, 07:48:51 am
It's a meaningless number without putting it in relation to what the average wages are.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: A.D.R.I.A.N on July 29, 2016, 09:32:56 am
Sorry, my english isn't very good.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: KingMike on July 29, 2016, 11:20:41 am
If about currencies just being numbers, one of the best videos I've seen was a youtube video about an Indian tech support scammer. His quote to remove porn from someone's PC was 2,000 British Pounds a week. Surely his native currency was rupees, and he was thinking like "eh, whatever, just swap the currency name. HE'LL STILL SOUND LEGIT." :P (there's only about a 100x difference in value)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: PresidentLeever on July 29, 2016, 11:43:45 am
Raspberry style version that takes carts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dgnD93pwX0
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: MisterJones on July 29, 2016, 12:24:34 pm
It's a meaningless number without putting it in relation to what the average wages are.
COntext

Minimum wage is around 73 mxn per day, which is less than 4 usd. Average can vary wildly, I would guesstimate the median is around 10usd a day.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on October 02, 2016, 10:34:43 pm
So: Seems the emulation on the mini-NES is actually a considerable improvement over the Wii U virtual console.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocGdWRF84Q0&feature=youtu.be

blah blah nintendo is staffed by incompetent losers etc.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Kallisto on October 08, 2016, 06:06:46 am
Some of the basic levels that it looks awesome, but it seemed like they were holding back that could have made it better. I guess Nintendo wanted to play it safe, and see if it would sell first.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on October 08, 2016, 06:52:38 am
So: Seems the emulation on the mini-NES is actually a considerable improvement over the Wii U virtual console.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocGdWRF84Q0&feature=youtu.be

I'm impressed. Nintendo just earned my $60.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Bobolicious81 on October 13, 2016, 07:27:04 pm
The old fart in me loves that they added a CRT filter, and I'm also very pleased about the 4 save state slots per game, so nobody has to fight over the single save file on Final Fantasy.

I know all that is readily available on most NES emulators, but it's a neat little gadget and a convenient way to share a good cross section of classics with my kids. (They don't need to know yet that I have such easy access to so many consoles' entire libraries on my phone and PC...they should spend more time outside as it is 😂)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: lexluthermiester on October 14, 2016, 03:39:15 am
and also for people who want to do things legally. If you're massively into NES, doing things legally as well...

You'd be surprised how many people actually buy the games they emulate. For example, I have 4 different copies of Super Metroid. One each Japanese and US physical copy and two digital copies. This is true of most of the games I emulate. And despite the general consensus on RHDN, emulation is not illegal If you own the system and the game you're emulating.

It's a very good price. 2 bucks per game. If you can afford a single lump payment of 60 plus any taxes or shipping/handling, it's an insane deal. FF1 alone is like 20 bucks bare minimum if you want to use a cart ,and 5 if you want to use the VC. Combine that with the other games and well shit gets pricey.

You have a good point. This little system is going to be a great value. And given Nintendo's usual excellent hardware quality, it's not going to be something scoffed at especially considering that it has the expansive feature set.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 14, 2016, 02:00:05 pm
Quote
You'd be surprised how many people actually buy the games they emulate. For example, I have 4 different copies of Super Metroid. One each Japanese and US physical copy and two digital copies.

Same here. I had a collection of well over 100 NES games before I got my Powerpak. Now that I own said "pirate device" I actually possess fewer ROMs than I did actual physical carts.

I recently updated the files on my Powerpak as well so now most of the mappers support save states and can reset a game or exit back to the Powerpak menu with the controller (and no more of that resetting the system just to keep your SRAM). Were it not for that and the limited supply of games for the mini-NES I would have likely purchased one myself. At this point, my needs have already been met and exceeded though.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: lexluthermiester on October 14, 2016, 03:53:33 pm
before I got my Powerpak.

Friend of mine has one of those. He loves it! He's got a similar device for his super fam. Personally, I prefer the GPD Q9PSV. Small enough to be mobile and big enough to sit at my desk hooked up to monitor[HDMI] and will play all of the classic systems perfectly if not close to it. It struggles slightly with some NDS and PSP titles, but otherwise is simply excellent!
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 14, 2016, 05:33:36 pm
Friend of mine has one of those. He loves it! He's got a similar device for his super fam. Personally, I prefer the GPD Q9PSV. Small enough to be mobile and big enough to sit at my desk hooked up to monitor[HDMI] and will play all of the classic systems perfectly if not close to it. It struggles slightly with some NDS and PSP titles, but otherwise is simply excellent!

Within the next year or two I'm thinking of going to XBOX or Wii route. Right now Im looking into emulators for PS2 because that's that most powerful system I currently own. Disappointed me that I have yet to find a GB/GBC/GBA emu for it but I'm still looking forward to tapping into the Master System and Genesis libraries (I never owned either of them).
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Bahamut ZERO on October 14, 2016, 06:13:59 pm
Within the next year or two I'm thinking of going to XBOX or Wii route. Right now Im looking into emulators for PS2 because that's that most powerful system I currently own. Disappointed me that I have yet to find a GB/GBC/GBA emu for it but I'm still looking forward to tapping into the Master System and Genesis libraries (I never owned either of them).


Wii's a good route to take. NES/SNES/all older Sega emus run flawlessly. GB/GBC run great off of the VBA port, and there's a different emu that'll run just about every GBA game I throw at it.

Wiisx (PS1 emu) is a little all over the place compatability wise. I've gotten Diablo, Legend of Legaia and a few others working pretty well on it.

Not64 is a pretty solid N64 emulator that actually runs a fair number of games surprisingly well. Doom 64 with a Classic Controller is a fun experience, and if Mario 64 hacks are your thing a fair amount of those run fairly well also.

Not to mention homebrew games, virtual console, and Wiiware games. You might like Castlvania Adventure ReBirth, a wiiware game that's based on the GB game but with different levels and such. Feels like Castlvania bloodlines on steroids when playing it.  :)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 14, 2016, 06:51:41 pm
First of all, sorry if I got this conversation off topic. It's not very active at this point so I hope no one is upset. Anyway...


Wii's a good route to take. NES/SNES/all older Sega emus run flawlessly. GB/GBC run great off of the VBA port, and there's a different emu that'll run just about every GBA game I throw at it.

Good to know. What about Shantae for GBC? I've been wanting to play more of that but many emus can't seem to handle it properly and last time I checked an actual copy of that game goes for ridiculous prices.

Quote
Wiisx (PS1 emu) is a little all over the place compatability wise. I've gotten Diablo, Legend of Legaia and a few others working pretty well on it.

That's not too bad. I'll still be using my PS2 for PSX/PS2 games so I think I'm covered on this front.

Quote
Not64 is a pretty solid N64 emulator that actually runs a fair number of games surprisingly well. Doom 64 with a Classic Controller is a fun experience, and if Mario 64 hacks are your thing a fair amount of those run fairly well also.

I never was crazy about the N64 so I'll def want to emulate that system. I own an N64 and maybe about a handleful of games for it. That's about as much as I want to invest in that failure of a console (poor library due to lack of dev support).

Quote
Not to mention homebrew games, virtual console, and Wiiware games. You might like Castlvania Adventure ReBirth, a wiiware game that's based on the GB game but with different levels and such. Feels like Castlvania bloodlines on steroids when playing it.  :)

For sure. I had almost forgotten about that game until Mike and Bootsy or whoever made a video if it lately. The boss fights looked a little too easy by Castlevania standards but otherwise it looked like it would be pretty cool. I'd like to try some of the other ReBirth titles too so the Wii might be what I'm looking for. I'm also interested in a few of the regular Wii titles themselves. I can't really think of much that I want to play on the XBOX but from what I hear it's easier to mod.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: lexluthermiester on October 15, 2016, 08:00:58 pm
Within the next year or two I'm thinking of going to XBOX or Wii route. Right now Im looking into emulators for PS2 because that's that most powerful system I currently own. Disappointed me that I have yet to find a GB/GBC/GBA emu for it but I'm still looking forward to tapping into the Master System and Genesis libraries (I never owned either of them).

Having modded both, I have to say the Wii is the better option. Soft modding is very easy and the emulation options are extensive. Just about every classic system is emulated, including N64 and PSX. And if you get an HD/Component cable and set of four Wiimotes & Classic controllers you'd be able to play some Mario Kart four player in 480P. Additionally, you'll have spare controllers for your HD MiniNES.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on November 11, 2016, 01:30:15 pm
For all the howling about what a terrible idea this was, it seems to be selling out even faster than the Wii U Gamecube adapter.

Apparently Nintendo is bringing back the ol' Power Line for a weekend, just for kicks:
http://kotaku.com/nintendo-brings-back-the-power-line-for-a-weekend-1788573658?utm_campaign=Socialflow_Kotaku_Facebook&utm_source=Kotaku_Facebook&utm_medium=Socialflow
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Bobolicious81 on November 11, 2016, 05:31:19 pm
These things are selling like hot cakes. I stopped by Target on my way to work, and they were already gone. Apparently they sold out within 10 minutes. There was a line outside Best Buy as I drove buy...I'm guessing it was for the NES.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on November 11, 2016, 06:19:50 pm
I was so excited when I heard about this that I made a thread.

6 days ago, on Nov. 5th, around 3 am, my mother's pulse began dropping during an emergency tracheotomy required by a freak allergic reaction to an ACE inhibitor she'd been taking for years for her high blood pressure. The medical staff began CPR immediately, but it was unsuccessful.

So, uh...my paycheck went for funeral clothing.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: A.D.R.I.A.N on November 11, 2016, 06:42:33 pm
Just bought on time my Mini-NES.
Man, those things really sells like hot coffee with bread!
Glad they still had one!
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Chronosplit on November 11, 2016, 06:47:16 pm
Any confirmation on if you can actually add games in any way?

I was so excited when I heard about this that I made a thread.

6 days ago, on Nov. 5th, around 3 am, my mother's pulse began dropping during an emergency tracheotomy required by a freak allergic reaction to an ACE inhibitor she'd been taking for years for her high blood pressure. The medical staff began CPR immediately, but it was unsuccessful.

So, uh...my paycheck went for funeral clothing.
My word Spooniest that's horrible, my condolences. :<
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: nesrocks on November 11, 2016, 07:00:00 pm
So, what about this?
http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15073
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Chronosplit on November 12, 2016, 12:19:58 am
So, what about this?
http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15073
Whelp, that sucks.  I guess that tears it for me.  Kinda figured the emulation would be slightly better quality on the thing considering superior hardware.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SCD on November 12, 2016, 01:24:53 am
I never was interested in the Mini-NES in the first place because I have a HDMI modified NES console that can play any game perfectly.

People are already selling the Mini-NES on Amazon and eBay for ridiculous prices.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Bobolicious81 on November 12, 2016, 01:11:06 pm
People are already selling the Mini-NES on Amazon and eBay for ridiculous prices.

People like that ruin it for others. They knew the demand would be much higher than supply, so they snatched some up just to resell at ridiculous prices...

I want one, but there's no way I'm paying more than retail. These games are already 30 years old. I can wait for stores to restock.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: A.D.R.I.A.N on November 15, 2016, 05:28:00 pm
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/11/a_japanese_hacker_has_cracked_the_famicom_mini_already (http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/11/a_japanese_hacker_has_cracked_the_famicom_mini_already)
Looks like a japanese guy already hacked the console...
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jonk on November 15, 2016, 06:17:47 pm
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/11/a_japanese_hacker_has_cracked_the_famicom_mini_already (http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/11/a_japanese_hacker_has_cracked_the_famicom_mini_already)
Looks like a japanese guy already hacked the console...
Thanks. Interesting. From the first lines of the article:

Quote
The NES Classic Mini and its Japanese sibling the Famicom Mini both run Linux, and because of that Nintendo is duty-bound to share the source files for the hardware.

Not "duty-bound" but legally bound by the licensing terms. Might be able to be taken to court in the US. See this 2011 article (http://apps.americanbar.org/litigation/committees/intellectual/articles/fall2011-copyleft-agreements-gnu-general-public-license.html) from the American Bar. It discusses recent decisions by US courts and then towards the end it summarizes:

Quote
While the law surrounding copyleft agreements is still in its infancy, the recent appellate court decisions in Wallace and Jacobsen suggest that copyleft agreements may be effective in ensuring that copies and modifications to open-source software will remain open source. In these cases, the courts have clearly taken note of the public benefits provided by open-source software. The courts’ acknowledgement of the sound public policy behind open-source software suggests that the courts will continue to look favorably on open-source licensing and that copyleft agreements will remain effective and enforceable.

However, it still requires pursuit in court from those with a valid cause of action.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on November 15, 2016, 06:48:38 pm
Quote
People like that ruin it for others. They knew the demand would be much higher than supply, so they snatched some up just to resell at ridiculous prices...

Look at it this way: Nintendo knew that such a limited quantity would cause this but did it to consumers anyway. So it's partly their fault, not just the people who want to take advantage of schmucks.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on November 16, 2016, 09:07:59 am
Not "duty-bound" but legally bound by the licensing terms.
Is it not possible to license the software in more than one way?  Surely there are other commercial devices running Linux whose developers were never obliged to release sources?

Look at it this way: Nintendo knew that such a limited quantity would cause this but did it to consumers anyway. So it's partly their fault, not just the people who want to take advantage of schmucks.
Maybe they didn't know because they read so many message posts stating that it was a terrible idea and they were a terrible company for making it.  :P
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: NoOneee on November 16, 2016, 10:21:58 am
Is it not possible to license the software in more than one way?  Surely there are other commercial devices running Linux whose developers were never obliged to release sources?
There isn't any other way. The Linux kernel license is GPLv2, and the only way to license it in other terms would be to get every single code contributor to agree with that, or rewrite their code. I don't think this is viable.
Some Android manufacturers don't release their kernel source code, but those are usually based on China so I guess they don't care.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Chronosplit on November 16, 2016, 10:52:23 am
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/11/a_japanese_hacker_has_cracked_the_famicom_mini_already (http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/11/a_japanese_hacker_has_cracked_the_famicom_mini_already)
Looks like a japanese guy already hacked the console...
Would there be any chance of replacing the emulator once someone finds the relevant means?  Would something like say, FCEUX work better than what the Mini has?
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: FAST6191 on November 16, 2016, 11:25:45 am
I poked around the sources on the link for something else, has a nice controller library (uses i2c like the wiimote nunchuck/expansion port) and some interesting bits and pieces elsewhere but the emulation stuff is nowhere to be seen. I have not yet seen anybody poke it to see if it is similar in some notable way to the emulators on the GBA, Wii, Wii u or anything else Nintendo has done.

Is it not possible to license the software in more than one way?  Surely there are other commercial devices running Linux whose developers were never obliged to release sources?
Maybe they didn't know because they read so many message posts stating that it was a terrible idea and they were a terrible company for making it.  :P
If they don't make any changes then they don't have to. Technically the source only has to be released to the users of the software (I can take libreoffice, add a bunch of functionality and sell it to a client, they are legally entitled to the changed but nobody else is), however for most practical purposes in devices released to the public the devs release either the changes they made or the source.
Various things may be licensed under the lgpl which can see you keep it to yourself, likewise various flavours of BSD can remain closed source and still deal in embedded code. There are also embedded unix distributions which Nintendo has dealt with in the past. Similarly you can get creative with certain APIs in some instances; no OS which requires every piece of software released for it to be open source is going to get too far, to that end most have various APIs which you can use free and clear without having to worry about this, primarily simple executable execution.

Equally I think there are a few dual licensed programs and many things will also see you disclaim your contributions to avoid having to track down several hundred people should something want to happen there. Most of my go to examples have changed here but http://oss-watch.ac.uk/resources/duallicence2 is a nice article on the matter.

Would there be any chance of replacing the emulator once someone finds the relevant means?  Would something like say, FCEUX work better than what the Mini has?

For the effort you are probably better off with a newer flavour of raspberry pi. However it seems to be a little ARM board and the folks over at nesdev were not the kindest (link somewhere else in this thread or http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15073 ) so yeah I guess you could get something better on there, if nothing else another emulator will probably have nicer savestates, cheats and what have you.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: jonk on November 16, 2016, 04:26:07 pm
Is it not possible to license the software in more than one way?  Surely there are other commercial devices running Linux whose developers were never obliged to release sources?
There is a GPL'd library license that is separate from the licensing used for the kernel O/S. And there are some free libraries, which can be used for any purpose at all without credit or having to release modified source code.

But in general, no. Have you even read Stallman's writings from the 1980's or listened to his testimony in Congress??

The entire PURPOSE of the GPL is to FORCE the release of source code. It's WHY it was created.

Stallman knew that students at Universities couldn't get the best education about the best code written by the best programmers if all of the serious code was protected within the walls of a corporation which considered every single line of code as "proprietary." Some Universities could gain access to source code of commercial software, but always under very, very strict rules. Unix is such a case that was prevalent in the 1970's and 1980's, for example. (I worked on the Unix v6 kernel starting in 1978, for example.)

He came to realize, thinking about the entire problem, that there was another underlying concept he wanted to formalize. The idea of "freedom" for consumers of software. That when one pays for software, they should also have the right to hire a programmer to modify it for their own purposes. Or to do so, themselves, if they had the time, skill, and inclination.

He created the idea of a "Copyleft", to differentiate the idea from a "Copyright," while also making it _memorable_ so that people wouldn't forget what is really going on -- especially, so that corporations couldn't hide, in court, behind some stupid argument that the licensing was "complex" or "not clear" or otherwise somehow that they should be excused for being too stupid when abusing Copyleft licensing for their own profit.

He then encouraged programmers to work, shoulder to shoulder, with him in creating something that would provide the critical mass needed to make this process succeed in the end. He started GNU's C compiler to achieve this. At the time, C compilers were expensive tools and required maintenance fees, as well. By providing a C compiler that was at the pinnacle of technology, he'd be encouraging its use and by tethering its software generation to Copyleft licensing requirements, he could prove his concept.

It worked. Probably better than he'd originally hoped. Linus also came along and decided to include Linux under the Copyleft licensing requirements. The operating system was slow to get started, but as you know now it has become a very, very important component. It's also a key pillar in Stallman's design for Copyleft. Along with the GNU compiler toolset, of course, which now includes a great many tools along with the Linux operating system. Through the work of a husband/wife pair, BSD 386 was also created out of whole cloth from experiences with the Berkeley Unix system. This has now become FreeBSD and is, in my opinion from experience working on and designing operating systems, much better designed than Linux. It also doesn't have anywhere near the following. So it's still an "after-ran" bit of O/S software. But still plenty of people pushing it along, too.

If you use the source code from Copyleft'd software, but never release any of your work for others to use, there's no problem. You are free to do that, too. But if you provide a copy of an executable to a friend, you must ALSO provide them with the RIGHT to have all of the source code (and this means ALL, not just some) needed to completely rebuild an exact copy of that executable. They then can choose whether or not to secure a copy of the source. But you MUST make it available, if they want it and ask for it -- without charging for that privilege.

You can charge anyone for the executable, if they are willing to pay you for it. There's no requirement that the product is free, in the sense of "no cost." It simply must be free in the sense of "freedom." It does mean that if someone wants to spend the time, themselves, they can use the source code and just build it for themselves. And not pay you. Because you have to make the source code available to anyone who is provided access to the executable.

So, for example, Red Hat is free to charge for their products. Since they provide the executable to anyone in the public who buys it, any one of those purchasers can get the entire body of source code from that buyer, too. The buyer is free to give that source code to anyone they please, so long as they pass along the Copyleft information related to it, as well. So once Red Hat made the choice, it pretty much puts the source code "into the wild" where they cannot control it, anymore. But buyers still purchase from Red Hat because the costs are reasonable, the quality decent, support available (for a price), and any buyer can still make modifications if they are able to either pay for them or do them, themselves.

The "stone soup" of Copyleft'd software has grown to tremendous proportions. So much so, in fact, that a court case actually accused the Copyleft process of "price fixing" and depriving them of revenue! Not at all true, of course. Anyone can write their own software and there is no requirement that you make your own code available to the public. It's just that if you derive benefits from using the hard work of many other programmers, who have themselves chosen to make their software source code freely available to others under the conditions of the Copyleft agreements, then you must follow the rules, too. So if you add 100 lines of code to improve on some facet, and if you make the resulting tool available to others, then you must include your source code changes, as well. If asked, anyway.

If Nintendo actually did use Copyleft'd software in their product, the goose is cooked. They can either remove the Copyleft'd software entirely and replace it with their own work product, or else they will have to make ALL of it available to the public. Well, kind of. Some of the older Copyleft'd versions were "weak", legally. TiVo "stole" Copyleft'd source code to build their DVR and paid no one AND refused to make their software source code available, as well. The newer Copyleft licenses take care of a loophole they used.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on November 16, 2016, 09:45:53 pm
There are also embedded unix distributions which Nintendo has dealt with in the past.
When was that?
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Kallisto on November 29, 2016, 12:57:46 pm
Surprised this topic is still going.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on November 29, 2016, 01:22:59 pm
Surprised this topic is still going.

The thread has gone on longer than the product was on the shelves.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Mari42 on November 30, 2016, 02:19:24 am
The fact that I hate about this product is because the sounds in each game were replaced, or missing at some point. Like SMB3 when Mario hits the bricks, then the pitch sound is lowered like I can't even hear it through as I've watched the video of it of the guy who played that on TV.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Bahamut ZERO on November 30, 2016, 12:31:28 pm
Yeowch, sounds like an early NES emulator for PSP from the what I'm hearing on this thread.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Jorpho on December 01, 2016, 12:12:10 am
I read somewhere that the big problem is the noise channel.  Maybe they'll fix it in the next run of units?
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Chronosplit on December 01, 2016, 05:01:38 pm
Maybe they'll fix it in the next run of units?
Well, you know what the Ferengi say: "Anything worth selling is worth selling twice."
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: stuffgnome on December 01, 2016, 08:54:36 pm
Well, you know what the Ferengi say: "Anything worth selling is worth selling twice."

Ah yes, Nintendo, "They're greedy, misogynistic, untrustworthy little trolls, and I wouldn't turn my back on one of them for a second... But once you accept that, you'll find they can be a lot of fun."
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: A.D.R.I.A.N on January 07, 2017, 12:34:18 am
Well, it had to happen:
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2017/01/hackers_apparently_add_additional_games_to_nes_mini (http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2017/01/hackers_apparently_add_additional_games_to_nes_mini)
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: flame on January 07, 2017, 12:38:34 am
I have a PC that can do it, a PSP & a Vita that can and a Wii that can. A phone that can too (but with awful touch screen controls).
I don't need this, but more power to those that do.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: SunGodPortal on January 07, 2017, 12:58:58 am
I have a PC that can do it, a PSP & a Vita that can and a Wii that can. A phone that can too (but with awful touch screen controls).
I don't need this, but more power to those that do.

Yeah, this thing is pure novelty.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Bobolicious81 on February 26, 2017, 09:40:49 am
I looked on Amazon over the last few days and it seems the average resell price has dropped $60 or so. Now you can get one for merely $125 rather than $185  :laugh:

I might still pick one up once I can find it for the actual msrp of $59.99, but I refuse to reward the price gougers.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on February 26, 2017, 10:14:02 am
Nintendo, you conditioned us to like small cute things as children

Now you are selling the weird redesign of the device you used to do it in a small, cute form.

...I really think I'd rather learn how to play Hanafuda, or whatever game Hanafuda cards are used to play? Didn't Nintendo used to make Hanafuda cards?

...This is like, advanced level Pavlovian salesmanship of some Guinness World Record.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: lexluthermiester on February 26, 2017, 10:37:44 pm
Well, it had to happen:
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2017/01/hackers_apparently_add_additional_games_to_nes_mini (http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2017/01/hackers_apparently_add_additional_games_to_nes_mini)

I did that with mine. Added in a bunch of games that were far more worthy, including a few choice hacks. Loads of fun!
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: A.D.R.I.A.N on February 27, 2017, 10:58:00 pm
It's no surprise at this point, but somebody forced the NES Classic to run Retroarch, giving it the ability to run other system's games, ranging from SNES, Sega Genesis, Gameboy, and even N64:
http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/nes-classic-game-boy-genesis/ (http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/nes-classic-game-boy-genesis/)
I'm already sastisfied with just NES games on the system (even ones you unofficialy add), making it run Retroarch it's overdoing it, and kinda ruins the charm of it.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: Spooniest on February 28, 2017, 01:07:56 am
It's no surprise at this point, but somebody forced the NES Classic to run Retroarch, giving it the ability to run other system's games, ranging from SNES, Sega Genesis, Gameboy, and even N64:
http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/nes-classic-game-boy-genesis/ (http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/nes-classic-game-boy-genesis/)
I'm already sastisfied with just NES games on the system (even ones you unofficialy add), making it run Retroarch it's overdoing it, and kinda ruins the charm of it.

Weren't there times when Tetris and Doom and Pacman were being ported to every darn thing that accepts electricity or something? Port-overdosed software yeah...

RetroArch is one of those. When will they stop porting it? They may as well make the welcome message in the next version "I am Locutus of Borg. Your life as you have known it is over. From this moment forward, you will service us."

^_^ Gosh I'm such a dork.
Title: Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
Post by: lexluthermiester on February 28, 2017, 01:15:44 am
It's no surprise at this point, but somebody forced the NES Classic to run Retroarch, giving it the ability to run other system's games, ranging from SNES, Sega Genesis, Gameboy, and even N64:
http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/nes-classic-game-boy-genesis/ (http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/nes-classic-game-boy-genesis/)

Might try this, just for giggles. Seems like it could be fun!

I'm already sastisfied with just NES games on the system (even ones you unofficialy add), making it run Retroarch it's overdoing it, and kinda ruins the charm of it.

Totally understandable. Kind of agree with you as well.