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Romhacking => ROM Hacking Discussion => Topic started by: KillerBob on July 10, 2015, 05:40:21 pm

Title: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on July 10, 2015, 05:40:21 pm
Hi there, I've been working on a simple relocalization of the original The Legend of Zelda where I'm mostly have taken use of Clyde "Mato" Mandelin's excellent translations. It has been more or less finished for quite some time but being quite new to the world of rom hacking I hit a wall on two things I wanted accomplished.  :banghead: So I'm posting here in the hope some of you great people could help me out.

My first problem is the Save Option Screen. The original Japanese options says Continue, Quit and Retry or Start Over I guess along with their English counterparts. The last option made a lot of sense on the FDS system as it brings you back to the Select Screen without the need to insert Side A then switch to Side B and then try again. NES owners could as well hit the reset on the actual console instead.
(http://i.imgur.com/PXpeVO7.png)
Anyway, I wanted to have it centered and expand the text but in doing so the flashing red palette seen when you select one of the options doesn't match the lenght of the text and its position and the heart cursor is obviously still in the original position. So my problem is, I havent't been able to find where the cursor and flashing red palette for the text is located in the rom. Anyone familiar with the rom who can please help me out with this. I guess I could drop the & Quit part but why make it easy for yourself.  ;)

Left: original Right: mockup
(http://s18.postimg.org/8nzb88zuh/Zelda_Ending.png)
My second problem is the dialog of Zelda in the ending. Her lines were the only ones which weren't updated to be typed without additional spacing. The Japanese text is always written on two lines with additional space between the lines for readability and allocated for special characters I guess. The NES version used that space in order to fit one additional line of text except for this single line. I thought it would be nice to have some consistency but have been unable to solve this. Any idea if it's possible and where the pointer for that text is. Any help would be greatly appreciated. The rom I'm working with is the PRG0 version.


Btw, here's my text cleanup done on the opening screens:
(http://i.imgur.com/oxQ56SC.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/8mxhAHq.png)

I restored the foliage next to the title in the story which went missing when they added The to the title and restored the parchment paper that Link is holding from the Japanese original as I always thought the NES version looked poor in comparison. Not the best line breaks on it but I think it's an overall improvement. The story text is far from perfect but the color coding and limited time it's on the screen makes it a bitch working on. Any feedback is of course welcomed.

Also, any suggestion on what to name the last item on the list. In the Japanese game it literally says Hidden "Triforce" of Wisdom. Being just a piece of it I wondered if anyone have any suggestion. Just have it say Triforce isn't wrong as that's what the fragments also goes by in both the Japanese and English manuals sometimes but to make things more clear, perhaps Triforce Piece/Shard/Fragment would be an alternative. I don't know, would Piece of Triforce be correct English? Leave it as it is? Thoughts?

Doing the simple work on this game have really made me appreciate all the awesome work you guys are doing in rom hacking even more. Man, it was tougher than I thought. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KingMike on July 10, 2015, 08:37:41 pm
With the SAVE & QUIT thing, it's probably a simple attribute table change.
Attribute table (23C0-23FF in PPU RAM) is a table where every 2 bits represents the palette for a 16x16 tile of the screen (so 1 byte is a 2x2 square of 16x16 blocks, or 32x32 pixels and 8 bytes represents 32 full pixel lines).
You can probably use FCEUX debugger. Get to the screen before it flashes, turn on the debugger add a breakpoint for writes to PPU 23C0-23FF. It should tell you up a line where the data is coming from (a memory address) If it's ROM (8000-FFFF) then you can find the data in ROM. If it's RAM (anything else), then you have to repeat the process by adding a write breakpoint for CPU on the RAM address until it gets back to ROM.

With the cursor, is it a sprite or a tile?
If it's a sprite, very easy to tell as almost every NES game (due to technical limitation) uses a table somewhere in RAM (it'll be a full $100 bytes starting somewhere in RAM at $0x00, often $200)
Since it would be the only sprite on the screen, it should be the only one with a Y-coordinate (Y-cords will be every 4th byte in the table: such as $0200, $0204, $208, $20C... $2FC) that's not $F0+ (off the visible part of the screen). Then you can use the breakpoint function or a trace log to find how that RAM address got written to.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: SCD on July 10, 2015, 08:44:16 pm
One thing you should fix in your hack is in the Japanese version, the book was called "Bible" instead of "Book of Magic". You should rename the book back to it's original name.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: stuffgnome on July 10, 2015, 09:02:24 pm
Warning: The following reply is from someone with no hacking experience and who has just been reading posts on this site for way to long and may be under the false assumption that they understand what they are talking about.

Ok, so counting down from item 3:

#3 - Wind Waker uses the term "Triforce shard" when referring to the individual broken triforce units.
#2 - This document, "http://www.romhacking.net/documents/90/" shows a table for letters that also serve the dual purpose of serving as
        a line break it is as follows:
A - 8A
B - 8B
C - 8C
D - 8D
E - 8E
F - 8F
H - 91
I - 92
J - 93
K - 94
L - 95
M - 96
N - 97
O - 98
P - 99
Q - 9A
R - 9B
S - 9C
T - 9D
U - 9E
V - 9F
W - A0
X - A1
Y - A2
, - A8(?)
! - E9(?)
(SPACE) - 9C(?)

     I hope that the answer is that simple.

#3 - Off hand I have no clue, personally I would hope it would be as simple as using a debugger to find more or less were this event takes places and start changing values that correspond to the number of characters that appear red or distance between the heart and the last red character and changing values hoping to stumble upon the magic value. edit: Nevermind, follow the wise words of KingMike.

Title: .
Post by: Chpexo on July 10, 2015, 09:06:16 pm
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Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on July 10, 2015, 10:12:58 pm
Thanks, KingMike for your detailed response! Will follow your advice and see if I can solve it.  :) :thumbsup:

SCD, I first changed it back to Bible when I began on it as I'm being a purist but I actually find the Book of Magic to be a great localization so I kept it. I also doubt Nintendo of America changed this due to any strict policy which they were infamous for back in the early 90's, this game came out before their policy was in place IIRC. But if you guys absolutely think it should be Bible, I guess I could change it.

stuffgnome, unfortunately it's not that easy but good thinking. This particular ending text differ from the other lines in the game. And yes, I guess Triforce Shard is a good alternative.

Chpexo, I'm familiar with all the odd changes and weird decisions in the English localization. I forgot to mention it but this will be based on the original Japanese text as I don't think the localization brought anything good to the table when it came to its text, (except the name change of the Bible) despite their original intentions. Only the Pols Voice hint which is unique to the NES version will differ from the Japanese game in terms of the script.

Thanks for the response guys!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: SCD on July 10, 2015, 10:40:57 pm
SCD, I first changed it back to Bible when I began on it as I'm being a purist but I actually find the Book of Magic to be a great localization so I kept it. I also doubt Nintendo of America changed this due to any strict policy which they were infamous for back in the early 90's, this game came out before their policy was in place IIRC. But if you guys absolutely think it should be Bible, I guess I could change it.

They did changed it because of religious references, Nintendo of America introduce their strict censorship policy when they first brought the Famicom over here as the NES and that is one policy I wish they never introduced in the first place because it ruined a lot of great games in my opinion. Including games like Devil World were never release here because of that.

You can always make two versions of your hack, one with the "Bible" name and the other one with the "Book of Magic" name.

I'm glad you liked our responses, keep up the great work on your project.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Grimoire LD on July 10, 2015, 11:35:10 pm
Eh, the Bible is splitting hairs and it never made much sense to me. Why would a Magical Rod become more powerful with the Power of God, and why would it shoot fire? I've seen people say the "Rod of Aaron" and all of that, but I don't recall that shooting Fire anywhere in Exodus. Magical Book makes proper sense because... a book of magic being used to enhance the Magical Rod works. The Bible enhancing the powers of a Magical Rod never made sense, especially when you consider that it's all but been written out of Zelda lore about as early as Zelda 2 where a Goddess Statue was introduced and aside from some rogue crosses, there's no more mention of the stock religious symbols the series had been using (aside from that single piece of ALttP concept art, clearly made by someone who had no idea that the game was going to be called "Triforce of the Gods".)
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on July 10, 2015, 11:44:40 pm
They did changed it because of religious references, Nintendo of America introduce their strict censorship policy when they first brought the Famicom over here as the NES and that is one policy I wish they never introduced in the first place because it ruined a lot of great games in my opinion. Including games like Devil World were never release here because of that.
They most certainly had their guidelines even in the early days but if what is seen on this page:http://www.jjmccullough.com/nintendo.php (http://www.jjmccullough.com/nintendo.php) is true it wasn't until 1988 when their strict gudelines were fully enforced. It's hard to know the reason for the change when crosses on shields, tombstones and the actual book were left alone. Water of Life can also have a religious connotation but is also a classic fantasy trope.

I'm not that well versed in religion and history but was the holy bible thought of as a grimoire/book of magic in some cultures in ancient times?
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: VicVergil on July 11, 2015, 01:07:48 am
The mythology lore in the Zelda series wasn't fully established early on, so Christian imagery was frequently used in Zelda 1 (bible, shield with cross) and Zelda 2 (graves with crosses).

But then they all but dropped this starting with the third game, Triforce of Gods. Instead there was an emphasis on more Shinto-influenced stuff, like parallel worlds in Mt. Fuji, the three sacred treasures (the mirror, the sword and the pendant, I think?), and the whole reincarnation thing (Ganon, and rabbit Link). While there are priests (the one protecting Zelda, and Aghanim), the Catholic references are all but gone.
There's a six-branched star but it's more associated with occultism than anything religious, and it was changed to something else in all subsequent releases - even in Japan.

And then there's Din/Farore/Nayru and Hylia as well.

Someone in the comment section for Tomato's Legends of Localization website even mentioned the 3DS Alttp sequel had Japanese miko nuns and quite a lot of religious subtext written out of the English release. It's not Christian-influenced by any means.

If anything, I don't really think the "bible" or the graves were exactly essential to their vision more than just a random keyword for the "heroic fantasy"-lore feel - as opposed to later games in the series introducing religious lore of their own.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Trax on July 16, 2015, 10:13:08 pm
There are two things to consider to make good looking text in Zelda 1. Line changes, and leading spaces (or left padding). Here's the byte format for the text:

..xx xxxx   Letter Code
.x.. ....   Start third line of text (after letter)
x... ....   Start second line of text (after letter)

Text ends when a byte has bits 6-7 set.


For example, if the last letter of the first line is K (normal code 0x14), then the code becomes 0x94 (bit 7 set). If K is the last letter of the second line of text, the code changes to 0x54 (bit 6 set). If you want the letter K to end the entire text sequence, the code becomes 0xD4 (bits 6-7 set). That's how line changes work...

The next thing is leading spaces. When any line of text does not start from the leftmost tile, it should be padded with the character 0x25. Character 0x24 is a normal space. The difference between 0x24 and 0x25 is that 0x24 is considered a character like any other, and a sound is heard when the letter is "typed" on screen. Character 0x25 simply advances one tile to the right without delay and no sound, which effectively makes the line start farther to the right without delay. You can use as many consecutive 0x25 characters as you want...

To think about it, leading space may not be the appropriate term for this. Nothing says you can't use character 0x25 in the middle of a sentence (this should be tested, though). It's just that the original game never does that...
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on July 17, 2015, 02:14:27 am
Thanks, Trax. I'm familiar with how most of the text works in the game, all lines of dialog are already done except for Zelda's line in the ending which is handled a bit different.

The text "Thanks Link..." uses a different value for the last letter before the line break as to begin typing on the second line like every other dialog text in the game (despite typing it on the third line in this case) but after the last letter on the first line at $A96B is another value '64' which I haven't figured out the purpose of. I first thought this was due to the way the Japanese version treated the line breaks but that's not the case. The Japanese version just uses a different value for the last character. Would also like to expand this text but haven't been able to find the pointer for it yet. Any idea, Trax?

As for the cursor and palette mapping for the Save Option screen, I followed KingMike's advice but I have been unsuccessful in finding the code. Think I'll need to improve my ASM knowledge (which is only a bit above zero) before I can tackle those. Probably simple changes if you know what to look for but looking at the code in the debugger made my head hurt. :(

You can always make two versions of your hack, one with the "Bible" name and the other one with the "Book of Magic" name.
Didn't notice that you had edited your post... yes, I could do that. I was thinking of having the option between original and altered Zora sprite anyway.

EDIT: Well, I found out that if you just ignore the '64' hex value at the end of the first line, the text works like any other dialog in the game and begin typing on the second line. Now, I just need to find the pointer and what control its placement on screen.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Midna on July 19, 2015, 04:21:58 pm
Curious: Are you going to do anything about "Destroy the topmost boundary"? It's one of the few exceptions to the Japanese clues being less vague than the English ones. The best guess most people have is that it's talking about where to find the Red Ring...
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on July 20, 2015, 03:21:52 am
Curious: Are you going to do anything about "Destroy the topmost boundary"? It's one of the few exceptions to the Japanese clues being less vague than the English ones. The best guess most people have is that it's talking about where to find the Red Ring...
I guess you meant to say the other way around as the English one that replaced it is pretty clear-cut "Patra has the map." But it's also a quite stupid replacement. I guess it can be nice to know that a Patra holds the map but like Mato said in his article, at this point in the game it’s common knowledge that major enemies sometimes drop key items. A hint that says that you should bomb the topmost wall on the map is by far more useful. IMO it's pretty clear it's a hint for the hidden room that holds the Red Ring. Various Japanese sites also agree and what else could it refer to? But I admit that the Japanese hint is vague and doesn't make full sense until you have found the map. Still, it's a valid question as you could treat a localization of this game in various different ways but my answer is that in this patch I restore the original Japanese hints.

Some would perhaps prefer a cleaned up script of the English original, a combination or maybe suggest you should not bother with it at all as it's one of the most played games ever. And after almost thirty years people knows this game inside and out anyway and the Engrish lines have become iconic and well liked, so what's the point? Well, whenever I return I see a still fantastic masterpiece of a game that is somewhat diminished by the poor presentation (Engrish). IMO it deserves better. Nintendo's own attempt back in 2003 was half-assed.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Midna on July 20, 2015, 04:27:33 pm
No, I meant what I typed.

People who just want a cleaned-up version of the original English script are wearing nostalgia goggles, to be honest. The crummy translation has its charm, but even "destroy the topmost boundary" is easier to understand than stuff like "10th enemy has the bomb" (which replaced a hint that was actually useful).
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Trax on July 26, 2015, 12:48:30 pm
On the subject of translation, I can see two possibles avenues. Either your goal is to make a clear, direct translation from Japanese, without trying to change the meaning of the text. That, I would call a straight translation. Or, you want to modify the hints to make them look logical according to the game. In that case, you are doing more of an adaptation. I think both avenues are legitimate, as long as you keep it consistent throughout the game...

As for the technicality of Zelda's last lines of text, it is likely that the line change is simply hard-coded, since the text is a one-shot event. I've decoded quite a lot of the ROM, but I may be lacking in the ending scene department. I'll take a look and see what I can find...

As for the palette mappings of the Retry/Save/Continue screen, it may not be as trivial. I remember some time ago, someone was working on a Spanish translation of the game, and the Intro scrolling part had a similar problem with palettes, specifically the "All Treasures" line. As far as I can remember, the game simply changed a few bytes arbitrarily, and any further change had to be done through ASM...
Title: .
Post by: Chpexo on July 26, 2015, 02:25:03 pm
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Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on July 26, 2015, 05:16:56 pm
No, I meant what I typed.

People who just want a cleaned-up version of the original English script are wearing nostalgia goggles, to be honest. The crummy translation has its charm, but even "destroy the topmost boundary" is easier to understand than stuff like "10th enemy has the bomb" (which replaced a hint that was actually useful).
Oh, sorry. I misunderstood you then. And yes, the hints are pretty straightforward in the Japanese original, at least on the first quest. There's one hint given in the second quest which I still don't understand the reasoning behind and its very odd placement within the game. Would be interesting to see what Japanese guidebooks said about it but very few covered the second quest.

The hint in question is: ミズウミノ キタ ニハ ヒミツガ アル "There's a secret north of a lake."
It was replaced in the NES version with "South of arrow mark hides a secret." which was a hint for finding Level 8. The only thing I can think of is that the Japanese line was meant as a hint for finding the Power Bracelet. There's only two lakes (if you count the smaller one west of the eastern forest) the other ones are fairy fountains.

The only problem with that is that the location of the item is the same in both quests. Why have a hint for it this late in the game? Sure, the Bracelet is an entirely optional item in the first quest (makes travel easier) but in the second quest it's an necessary item. But, the biggest problem with it is that the hint is encountered in Level 6 and you need the Bracelet to enter Level 4. So, I really don't know what to think of that hint. Haven't found anything on Japanese sites either. Still, I'll keep the original Japanese hint.

As for the technicality of Zelda's last lines of text, it is likely that the line change is simply hard-coded, since the text is a one-shot event. I've decoded quite a lot of the ROM, but I may be lacking in the ending scene department. I'll take a look and see what I can find...
Thanks, would be awesome if you could have a look. Probably a stupid thought but perhaps the 0x64 is a 0x24 space (bit 7set) if that's even possible? Well, I cannot make any sense of it. The value found at $A94B (A4) seems to control the horizontal position of the text, but it only affect the 1st line of the text. The following lines and credits were no problem for me but this one I haven't solved. Perhaps I'll need to move a big chunk of code in order to expand and get the line centered...

As for the palette mappings of the Retry/Save/Continue screen, it may not be as trivial. I remember some time ago, someone was working on a Spanish translation of the game, and the Intro scrolling part had a similar problem with palettes, specifically the "All Treasures" line. As far as I can remember, the game simply changed a few bytes arbitrarily, and any further change had to be done through ASM...
That's what scares me, the "Treasures" line gave me a huge headache, I had to move the whole intro part just in order to fix that single line of text. And only after looking at a document I found online.

By the way, have you ever considered renaming "elimination mode" to "delete file"? The first time I played the game I accidentally deleted my save file because I thought it would lead me to multiplayer elimination mode!  :laugh:
Ouch! :laugh:  No problem, I've left no text in the game untouched, it says Erase Data.

(http://i.imgur.com/1fYT5zk.png)
I also replaced the period in the Name Registration with a question mark (which has been touched up to match the rest of the English font better, the original was too thin) as there is two periods available in the character box when there's no need for it.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Trax on July 26, 2015, 05:58:19 pm
Quote
Thanks, would be awesome if you could have a look. Probably a stupid thought but perhaps the 0x64 is a 0x24 space (bit 7set) if that's even possible? Well, I cannot make any sense of it. The value found at $A94B (A4) seems to control the horizontal position of the text, but it only affect the 1st line of the text. The following lines and credits were no problem for me but this one I haven't solved. Perhaps I'll need to move a big chunk of code in order to expand and get the line centered...

Well, KillerBob, your idea is not stupid at all. I checked the code for the ending, which starts straight from A900, bank 2. The text data for Zelda at the end follows the same rules as any text during the game. Last letter with bit 6, go to second line. Last letter with bit 7 set, go to third line. Bits 6-7 set, end of sequence. The only difference is that the lines have no space between them (in the US version). There's a table with 2 bytes at A992, which sets the offset (into the name table, most likely) for each new line, either 2nd or 3rd. Values are C4 and E4...

The 64 value is simply a Space character (24) with bit 6 set. So the second line is made of only a space character. Stupid like that...

If you take advantage of unused space (and there's a lot in Bank 2), you could add more text to that part. There's FC0 bytes of unused space starting from AF90. Finding a way to make text begin higher on screen would be nice as well...
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on July 29, 2015, 11:50:20 am
Thank you, Trax. You're awesome. :) Before having a look at my Save Screen issue again I was thinking about the minor bugs/glitches in the game... Not exactly a bug but I wanted to remove the secret staircases under the Armos statues outside Level 5 & 6 as they are clearly leftovers the developers forgot to remove, (the limitation of one entrance per screen forces them to be just a secondary entrance to the labyrinth, and if you exit the labyrinth after you have entered through the secondary entrance, the walking on stairs animation is absent like when you exit a secret staircase) they don't serve any purpose at all and might only confuse a first-time player. 

Anyway, is there a value that terminate them? The way I removed them was to place the secret entrance over the entrance to the labyrinth...

10CB2: 24 0B 1C 22 34 3D 4E   Screen
10CB9: E0 B0 B0 30 40 90 A0   Location of Secret

by changing the bolded values to 70, seems to work fine but I just wanted to be sure my approach doesn't cause any potential issues?

Also, is there a way to fix the "magically disappearing locked door" in Level 1?

A few notes from my last playthrough:

On the 1st Quest, no ghosts comes out of the grave where you get a Heart Container on the 2nd Quest. Similarly on the 2nd quest, no ghosts comes out of the grave where you get the Magical Sword in the 1st Quest. Might confuse a first-time player but is most likely a limitation of the two quest setup.

Objects that share the same palette and gets affected when Link's tunic changes color:

Sword
Boomerang
Bow and Arrows
Raft
Merchants and Zelda
Pols Voice

The heart cursor and the Magical Sword on the File Select Screens share palette (Makes the hilt on the sword white on the Erase Screen)

The game's prologue uses a different brighter palette for Link's skin color which in turn makes all those items that share palette with Link, looking a bit different compared to in-game as well. The reason for the difference is of course the palette used on the overworld - Link would blend with the background otherwise. However, I noticed that the game uses the prologue palette on Link inside Level-3 (1st Quest) and Level-2 (2nd Quest), which in turn makes the items and Pols Voice look different in the latter. Either they forgot to change the palette for these labyrinths or they kept it in order to not make Link blend with the background (sand in boss room). But that didn't stop them elsewhere, there's sand filled rooms in many other labyrinths.

A very minor difference in the Japanese re-release on cartridge is that it has smoother transitions when you enter or exit a cave compared to the FDS and NES versions where the hud (bottom of the subscreen) briefly blinks between transitions.

I don't think I will try to tackle any of these, just random observations of mine.

EDIT: On the 1st Quest you'll enter an unwinnable situation if you enter Ganon's chamber without Silver Arrows (and Rupees). In the 2nd Quest, besides Ganon's room, there's two rooms in Level 4 where you can get stuck if you're out of bombs. And if you do dungeons out of order there's a chance to get stuck in both Level 6 and 7. It's never a big deal as you can always bring up the Save Screen and choose continue to start from the entrance of the dungeon. Old and evil game design or simply developer oversights? Tough question. Ganon's room was clearly deliberate evil design. Those in Level 4 might be oversights but the other ones are hard to tell, I guess the labyrinths are numbered for a reason.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Jeville on July 29, 2015, 01:12:47 pm
Link is paler under the Treasures list for the paper he's holding that shares his skin palette.

If you want to toy with his labyrinth palettes, their locations can be found here (http://datacrystal.romhacking.net/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda:Dungeon_Data). I'm not sure what to make of them either.

I agree with removing secondary level entrances. An utility tool here can fix that easy.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on July 29, 2015, 01:45:03 pm
Link is paler under the Treasures list for the paper he's holding that shares his skin palette.
Ah, ok. Didn't think about the reason for it.
If you want to toy with his labyrinth palettes, their locations can be found here (http://datacrystal.romhacking.net/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda:Dungeon_Data). I'm not sure what to make of them either.

I agree with removing secondary level entrances. An utility tool here can fix that easy.
Thanks! :) Will take a look.

August 02, 2015, 01:34:27 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I agree with removing secondary level entrances. An utility tool here can fix that easy.
Which utility did you have in mind? I had a look at the various utilities available but wasn't able to find something that dealt with them. In Zeldatech you could basically do what I already did in hex, which is move their locations. My approach to get rid of them seems to work fine, just wanted to be sure.

As for the different Link palette used in level 3 (1st Quest) and level 2 (2nd Quest), I changed it to test its darker more common palette, and nothing else seemed to be affected in any negative way. So the reason for why they had a different shade of color for Link in those two particular dungeons are a bit of a mystery if it wasn't due to a simple oversight (both versions of Link looks good after all). There's even the Link on the file selection screen which sports a darker shade of brown. So, there's actually three different versions of Link in the game.
(http://i.imgur.com/wdacTEi.png)

Anyway, I think I'll leave all the colors alone. The reasons for the choices made can be many and starting to make graphical changes based on personal opinion makes this something different than a simple "relocalization."
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Trax on August 03, 2015, 07:41:36 pm
KillerBob, your approach with the Armos secrets is fine. The code simply does three checks to determine if a secret is revealed. First, it tries to match one of the locations in the table at 10CB2. If a match exists, then with the same index, it checks if the Armos has the same X position in the table at 10CB9. And then, it checks if the Armos has Y position 80 (this is fixed)...

So if you change the X position for that specific screen, and you make sure there's no Armos at the new X position, the conditions never meet, so the secret is effectively cancelled...

Quote
On the 1st Quest, no ghosts comes out of the grave where you get a Heart Container on the 2nd Quest. Similarly on the 2nd quest, no ghosts comes out of the grave where you get the Magical Sword in the 1st Quest. Might confuse a first-time player but is most likely a limitation of the two quest setup.

It's in the nature of the game engine itself. A tile cannot be touch-sensitive to ghosts and pushable at the same time. The columns are the same in both quests, so the tile attributes are also the same...

As for the locked door bug in level 1, the debugger could help pinpoint the exact place in code where the data is being modified. The only problem is, I don't know exactly the location of the data that keeps track of each room's state...
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on August 06, 2015, 12:21:28 pm
KillerBob, your approach with the Armos secrets is fine. The code simply does three checks to determine if a secret is revealed. First, it tries to match one of the locations in the table at 10CB2. If a match exists, then with the same index, it checks if the Armos has the same X position in the table at 10CB9. And then, it checks if the Armos has Y position 80 (this is fixed)...

So if you change the X position for that specific screen, and you make sure there's no Armos at the new X position, the conditions never meet, so the secret is effectively cancelled...

It's in the nature of the game engine itself. A tile cannot be touch-sensitive to ghosts and pushable at the same time. The columns are the same in both quests, so the tile attributes are also the same...
Thanks a lot for confirming! your help is much appreciated.  :beer:

Another minor oddity present, (which only crazy swordless run players may have noticed) is that the boomerangs lack the cursor sound effect when you select one on the sub-screen if you don't have equipped yourself with a sword yet. Once you get a sword, the sound effect is back.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KingMike on August 07, 2015, 11:15:30 am
Curious: Are you going to do anything about "Destroy the topmost boundary"? It's one of the few exceptions to the Japanese clues being less vague than the English ones. The best guess most people have is that it's talking about where to find the Red Ring...
I thought the line "GO TO THE NEXT ROOM" could've been translated as the NEARBY room instead (となりのへやへ ゆけ). (and that would've been your Red Ring hint)
(because while that hint room is next to it on the map, it is not sequentially accessible)
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on August 12, 2015, 11:26:24 am
I thought the line "GO TO THE NEXT ROOM" could've been translated as the NEARBY room instead (となりのへやへ ゆけ). (and that would've been your Red Ring hint)
(because while that hint room is next to it on the map, it is not sequentially accessible)
Yes, that one is also meant to be a hint for the hidden Red Ring room. The hint actually worked in a more literal sense in the leaked prototype where you simply walked through the wall to find the Silver Arrow instead. In the final game they removed the false wall mechanic in dungeons in the 1st Quest. Instead, the "Go to the next room." with false walls was moved to Level 9 2nd Quest.

I think it could have worked as a great introduction to that mechanic if they had kept it, but I guess they were scared to introduce it that late in the game. In the protype "Destroy the topmost boundary." worked as a hint for where to find the compass.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: contra on August 13, 2015, 03:06:46 am
Zelda, while almost perfect does need a clean up. Good job!

Btw, in the prototype the game would not pause during the "light up" when you used candles in dark rooms. Imo this was better, the pause is just annoying. Maybe something to consider putting back in ?

Also the credits in the proto used most of the real names of the staff instead of pseudonyms. Imo this should be also part of your retranslation if it isnt already. Check https://tcrf.net/Proto:The_Legend_of_Zelda for more info.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on August 13, 2015, 05:32:46 pm
Zelda, while almost perfect does need a clean up. Good job!

Btw, in the prototype the game would not pause during the "light up" when you used candles in dark rooms. Imo this was better, the pause is just annoying. Maybe something to consider putting back in ?

Also the credits in the proto used most of the real names of the staff instead of pseudonyms. Imo this should be also part of your retranslation if it isnt already.
Thanks!

I assume the slight pause for the candle was added for a reason though, and the use of pseudonyms in the staff roll is not something I will bring back to its prototype state. Sorry, this is for the most part only a simple text hack with my heart in restoration. That the staff ultimately decided to use their nicknames, I personally don't see any problem with. Back in the day, Miyamoto, Tezuka and Kondo often appeared in japanese gaming magazines with their nicknames Miyahon, TenTen and Konchan. They even had a Zelda Q&A in the Family Computer Magazine where Miyahon and TenTen answered the readers questions. Simpler times...
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: contra on August 14, 2015, 04:26:07 am
Right, I understand. Many of these localization/revamp hacks comes down to choices made by personal preferences. Just throwing some suggestions out there. :)
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on August 14, 2015, 10:07:48 am
Just throwing some suggestions out there. :)
I appreciate it.  :thumbsup:

A thing about the money in the game, is that the manuals describe them as Yellow and Blue Rupees, and that a blue one is worth five yellow ones. The in-game treasure listing only says Rupee and 5 Rupees. Would it perhaps make more sense to list the value of the yellow one as well?

It's also interesting that many items goes by slightly different terms in the manual, Clock is Magical Clock, the Boomerang and Arrow are Wooden Boomerang and Arrow for example. The first level sword is just that, and never in the japanese and english manuals is it described as being a wooden sword, despite being described that way on almost every Zelda site I've checked. It could as well be a rusty old blade as far as I know.  :D
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Grimoire LD on August 14, 2015, 01:12:58 pm
I appreciate it.  :thumbsup:

A thing about the money in the game, is that the manuals describe them as Yellow and Blue Rupees, and that a blue one is worth five yellow ones. The in-game treasure listing only says Rupee and 5 Rupees. Would it perhaps make more sense to list the value of the yellow one as well?

It's also interesting that many items goes by slightly different terms in the manual, Clock is Magical Clock, the Boomerang and Arrow are Wooden Boomerang and Arrow for example. The first level sword is just that, and never in the japanese and english manuals is it described as being a wooden sword, despite being described that way on almost every Zelda site I've checked. It could as well be a rusty old blade as far as I know.  :D

They may not have called it Wooden at the time (mainly because they likely assumed people would also assume it was wooden) but later games in the series used this same motif and Hyrule Warriors does call that legacy weapon "8-Bit Wooden Sword" so it is a wooden sword.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on August 14, 2015, 03:24:46 pm
They may not have called it Wooden at the time (mainly because they likely assumed people would also assume it was wooden) but later games in the series used this same motif and Hyrule Warriors does call that legacy weapon "8-Bit Wooden Sword" so it is a wooden sword.
It may indeed have been their intention all along but what Nintendo nowadays and a spin-off game released 28 years later decide to call it is irrelevant. In the original The Legend of Zelda it was and is up to each player to decide what kind of sword it is. With the limited graphics and the artwork provided, it's still up to interpretation what the developers had in mind.

Original manual artwork:
(http://i.imgur.com/C2ty62G.png)

It's not like you're checking out the manual and immediately thinking that sword is wooden based on its artwork, it's not as clear-cut as the artwork for the raft and ladder. I think the case is more a desire to have a connection between games, despite how minor that connection may be. A similar thing happened with the original small shield, which in the 2003 re-release manual suddenly became a wooden shield. With Nintendo's track record with the Zelda series, I guess future re-releases will explain that the tree where you find level 1, is the Great Deku Tree.  :laugh:
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on September 10, 2015, 09:11:46 pm
While that primitive artwork of the sword doesn't resemble the in-game appearance, I just realized that the work was probably based on a level 1-sword when Link wears the red ring. The artwork in some Japanese guide books seem to depict a bronze sword.

After your comment, I was curious to see what they called it in the Japanese Hyrule Warriors, it turns out it's called "Sword" just like in the original manuals. So "8-Bit Wooden Sword" appears to be a Nintendo of America term. Being completely unfamiliar with the game before seeing a clip on youtube, it surprised me that 1) The cross on the "8-Bit Shield" isn't a cross any longer. 2) Link look very feminine. But I guess the latter is a weird trend in Japanese entertainment these days.

But enough talk about the sword. A few subtle cosmetic changes done to the title screen...

before / after
(http://i.imgur.com/Su1OHsa.png)

properly displayed
(http://i.imgur.com/f8VQ8Kx.png)

Hardly noticeable but the shape of the Triforce was a bit poorly drawn when the English logo was made (inside the letter "D" and around the "Legend" part of the title). I also restored a tile that they didn't use. Still, definitely one of the best title screens of the NES era IMO, if only Metroid had received the same level of treatment for its localization.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Tomato on September 22, 2015, 02:26:35 pm
This is a weird question, but here goes!

Basically, I'm close to finishing my first Legends of Localization book, and it's about Zelda 1 - http://legendsoflocalization.com/announcing-the-first-legends-of-localization-book/

I'd like to make a brief mention about how fans years later have taken on the task of retranslating the game themselves, and if possible I'd like to possibly include a screenshot or two from this project. Would that be cool with you, KillerBob? If so, would you be able to provide any screenshots that you think especially stand out?
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on September 23, 2015, 03:19:34 am
This is a weird question, but here goes!

Basically, I'm close to finishing my first Legends of Localization book, and it's about Zelda 1 - http://legendsoflocalization.com/announcing-the-first-legends-of-localization-book/
Good to hear. Looking forward to it!

Which reminded me, I had forgotten to sign up for a notification. Now amended.

I'd like to make a brief mention about how fans years later have taken on the task of retranslating the game themselves, and if possible I'd like to possibly include a screenshot or two from this project. Would that be cool with you, KillerBob? If so, would you be able to provide any screenshots that you think especially stand out?
Hah! That would be awesome. :) I guess I'd better hurry up and get this patch of mine finished then. Some necessary ASM work is what has kept me from completing it as I'm a newbie. As for the translations and any screenshots, it's basically your work, 99% of it. As I have shamelessly stolen your lines straight from your great article I'm not really sure what to provide. I guess I can send you a bunch of screenshots and let you decide what would fit. I had actually thought about asking if you could provide some feedback on a couple of lines but I know you're a busy man. Are emulation screenshots enough for the purpose of the book?
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Tomato on September 23, 2015, 04:47:21 pm
Cool, thanks! And yep, emu screenshots are fine. I think any screens that have text that's very different from the official translation might be best, stuff like the old man's text in Level 1. That way it's immediately clear that it's been redone.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on September 24, 2015, 11:35:36 am
Cool, thanks! And yep, emu screenshots are fine. I think any screens that have text that's very different from the official translation might be best, stuff like the old man's text in Level 1. That way it's immediately clear that it's been redone.
I see, I guess one of these can be used then...

(http://i.imgur.com/3BFHuHq.png) (http://i.imgur.com/ZeccSfO.png) (http://i.imgur.com/m6qP0kY.png) (http://i.imgur.com/PokeuhD.png)

The Silver Arrow hint is another clear one but I might still rephrase it at this point. This is probably more than you asked for anyway.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: ShadowOne333 on September 24, 2015, 12:19:45 pm
This project is looking great!

How far away are you from an initial release?! :)
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Tomato on September 24, 2015, 05:31:28 pm
Wow, looking good! Thanks for posting them!
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on September 25, 2015, 09:48:56 am
This project is looking great!
Thanks! It's hard to fail with Tomato's great work as a foundation.

How far away are you from an initial release?! :)
Well, I basically finished this a couple of years ago but hit a wall on the save screen menu and walked away out of frustration but mostly for the lack of time and knowledge. Recently I've come back to it and gone back and forth on the phrasing of a few lines but it's more or less done. It's just that I'm an all or nothing kind of person, so the save screen issue is what have kept me from uploading it. But I guess I can make an initial release if there's interest. When it now gets a possible little mention in Tomato's upcoming book, it automatically has received a sort of deadline, which I think is good. :)

Wow, looking good! Thanks for posting them!
Thanks! :)

Regarding the text, if anyone wonders, it would certainly been nice to have lowercase letters as well, but I personally find it looks worse in most NES games without a variable width font. It would definitely alter the whole aesthetic feeling. Also, the Japanese game was only in katakana so I'm fine with the limitation. I only made it a rule to not let the quotes be typed all the way to the walls, as it's not that aesthetically pleasing. The original NES version has most of the text centered, I opted to only have the text block centered because I think the text look like headlines otherwise. The only changes made was that I have redrawn the question mark and made a special character for this fellow:
(http://i.imgur.com/lqFSkhH.png)
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on March 26, 2016, 07:05:37 am
Due to requests, I recently submitted my patch to the site despite its unfinished state. Life has been busy hence the delay, sorry and thanks for your interest. http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2777/ (http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2777/)

I also received a request if I could reconsider my stance on the font and include a lowercase one. I'm not entirely against it but the minimal spacing between rows causes a problem in my mind due to the descenders of letters such as g, p, and so forth. Don't know if there's any good fonts that would be fitting?

On a side note, an extremely minor oddity I recently noticed, is the absence of the high pitched item get audio effect if you buy a key. Only the chime is heard. This is the case in all versions of the game as far as I know. I'm interested in all obscure audiovisual quirks I can find for potential fixes, any list of bugs out there?
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: vince94 on March 26, 2016, 04:14:11 pm
I just found this project/thread, but I've been working on something similar for quite a while! You seem to be farther ahead than I ever got, though, so I just thought I'd post this stuff:

(http://i.imgur.com/GoCuXMN.png)
I wrote this tutorial on Data Crystal (http://datacrystal.romhacking.net/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda:Tutorials) back in 2013 (I think? It was my first year of college) based on what I learned while making this new story text. Feel free to recreate it if you want!

I also have this TXT file that I must have either written or found somewhere.
Code: [Select]
Pointer table is at 4010
The [END] control code can be different, depending on which part of the ROM the text is in.

The [END] control code is [80] --> Offset = Pointer + 4010
[4C][80] to 405C
[77][80] to 4087 << GUINEA PIG POINTER
[A1][80] to 40B1
[B9][80] to 40C9
[E3][80] to 40F3

The [END] control code is [81] --> Offset = Pointer + 4110
[05][81] to 4115
[2D][81] to 413D
[52][81] to 4162
[79][81] to 4189
[97][81] to 41A7
[AE][81] to 41BE
[D2][81] to 41E2
[F8][81] to 4208

The [END] control code is [82] --> Offset = Pointer + 4210
[2C][82] to 423C
[41][82] to 4251
[58][82] to 4268
[7D][82] to 428D
[94][82] to 42A4
[B8][82] to 42C8
[CD][82] to 42DD
[F5][82] to 4305

The [END] control code is [83] --> Offset = Pointer + 4310
[0D][83] to 431D
[4D][83] to 435D
[70][83] to 4380
[9C][83] to 43AC
[C6][83] to 43D6
[F0][83] to 4400

The [END] control code is [84] --> Offset = Pointer + 4410
[1C][84] to 442C
[3F][84] to 444F
[6D][84] to 447D
[90][84] to 44A0
[B8][84] to 44C8
[E3][84] to 44F3

The [END] control code is [85] --> Offset = Pointer + 4510
[0E][85] to 451E
[26][85] to 4536
[53][85] to 4563
[68][85] to 4578
[7E][85] to 458E

EDIT: Here's another screenshot. This is where I was in my last savestate, I was changing this guy's pointer to test out all of the strings.
(http://i.imgur.com/CCMDaaD.png)
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: ShadowOne333 on March 26, 2016, 04:48:32 pm
Why change the classic "It's dangerous to go alone. Take this."
It's as classic as the CVII one.  T-T

I'm mostly joking, I know it might have been poorly translated.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: vince94 on March 26, 2016, 04:50:02 pm
I wouldn't change such an iconic line! That screenshot was from further along in the game, where you can get a sword upgrade if you have a certain number of hearts.
I started a second file to see what I have him say:
(http://i.imgur.com/Pvi4NsQ.png)
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: ShadowOne333 on March 26, 2016, 05:14:50 pm
I wouldn't change such an iconic line! That screenshot was from further along in the game, where you can get a sword upgrade if you have a certain number of hearts.
I started a second file to see what I have him say:
(http://i.imgur.com/Pvi4NsQ.png)
I was joking. :p
Although, I didn't notice the different sword sprite.
Awesome job you guys are doing. :)
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: vince94 on March 26, 2016, 05:34:55 pm
Quote
I was joking. :p
Although, I didn't notice the different sword sprite.
It's all good! :)
Quote
Awesome job you guys are doing. :)
I'm not part of this project at all, but I just thought I'd post stuff from my old attempt to try and help. I got sidetracked and stopped working on it a while ago, heh.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: manofstars on March 26, 2016, 11:57:42 pm
One thing I'd suggest is adding "The Hyrule Fantasy" back to the title screen in some form, or at least a patch with that option, because I always thought that subtitle was kinda cool. I'd personally change it to "A Hyrule Fantasy" because I think that just sounds better but it's up to you.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on March 27, 2016, 04:34:06 am
One thing I'd suggest is adding "The Hyrule Fantasy" back to the title screen in some form, or at least a patch with that option, because I always thought that subtitle was kinda cool. I'd personally change it to "A Hyrule Fantasy" because I think that just sounds better but it's up to you.
Yeah, I agree. I was toying with the idea but ultimately abandoned it. I'll see what I can do.

What I always found interesting about it, was it the intended title of the series back in '86 rather than just a subtitle? Its placement in the logo definitely support the idea of it being a name for the series. The teaser in the 2nd Quest ending show they had a possible sequel already in mind. However, eleven months later the sequel established the series name as "The legend of Zelda" before any localization of the games had taken place. That is probably also the reason "The Hyrule Fantasy" was dropped when it was time for localization. EDIT: Well, I'm talking out of my ass, the teaser clearly says "Legend of Zelda 1" not "Hyrule Fantasy 1". *facepalm* I really should get some sleep.  :laugh:

March 27, 2016, 06:21:19 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I just found this project/thread, but I've been working on something similar for quite a while!

(http://i.imgur.com/GoCuXMN.png)

EDIT: Here's another screenshot. This is where I was in my last savestate, I was changing this guy's pointer to test out all of the strings.
(http://i.imgur.com/CCMDaaD.png)
Nice, I take it you didn't like my rewrites? I'm not that happy with some of them either so any suggestions are welcome.

My revision:
(http://i.imgur.com/oxQ56SC.png)
I think mine is an improvement but I'm not satisfied with it. Trying to look at it objectively, things my text doesn't get across is the setting (Hyrule), and who captured the princess? Although the latter is easily assumed. Its duration on the screen and the color coding dictated my choices. I imagined the objective of the game at the end being the words of Impa.

Why not use Nintendo's revision?
(https://tcrf.net/images/4/47/Zelda_story_GCN.png)
Nintendo's own revision have two ugly cases of double spacing to avoid coloring the comma after Ganon and the period after Zelda. While the color coding in the original put emphasis on the characters, the Triforces and the objective of the game, the revision changes the color coding to put emphasis on just the characters. In 2003, Green in the Zelda games represented Courage, Blue - Wisdom and Red - Power. Finally, the objective of the game is now part of the story, which sort of makes it seem like Zelda was imprisoned a long time ago when Link start his journey.

As for the sword fella, I like your rewrite.

I wouldn't change such an iconic line!
The whole game is iconic, why change anything in it?  :happy:
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: manofstars on March 27, 2016, 06:30:49 pm
I think using Nintendo's version of the altered text would work best personally. Ganon has been referred to as a Prince of Darkness in multiple games to my knowledge, so it'd be best to keep that in.

EDIT: Also wanted to say that I was playing the hack and I found a typo: The old man on the top right says "Show this to the old women." instead of "Show this to the old woman." I'm not sure if this was intentional; I'm PRETTY sure there's only one old woman in the game but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Midna on March 27, 2016, 11:47:02 pm
There are multiple old women in the game. They run the potion shops and the "pay me and I'll talk" rooms.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on March 28, 2016, 05:02:21 am
I think using Nintendo's version of the altered text would work best personally. Ganon has been referred to as a Prince of Darkness in multiple games to my knowledge, so it'd be best to keep that in.
Well, like I said, I'm not that fond of Nintendo's rewrite but I'm also aware of the shortcomings in my rewrite so I would love to see someone come up with something better as I'm not happy with it. And by that I don't mean hacking, a simple mockup will do. vince94's version reads much better than mine but it's too talky for my taste, and changes the color coding and font. Tomato's translation of the manual story for reference: http://legendsoflocalization.com/the-legend-of-zelda/manuals/ (http://legendsoflocalization.com/the-legend-of-zelda/manuals/)

As far as I know, Ganon is only known as the "Prince of Darkness" in the original NES game, but I admit I'm mostly familiar with the classic games in the series so I could be wrong.

Zelda I manual: 大魔王 "Great Demon King", NoA translation - "Prince of Darkness"

English Zelda II manual: "King of Evil" (He's not referred to by title in the Japanese one)

Triforce of the Gods manual: 邪悪の王 "King of Evil"
                              In-game: 闇の魔王 "Demon King of Darkness", NoA Translation - "Evil King of Darkness"

The Dreaming Isle manual: 邪悪の王 "King of Evil"

Ocarina of Time: 大魔王 "Great Demon King", NoA Translation - "Great King of Evil"

Twilight Princess: 大魔王 "Great Demon King", NoA Translation - "Dark Lord"

At least for the early sequels, Nintendo of America consistently went with Evil King/King of Evil instead. I have no problem with calling him a Prince of Darkness, I think I came up with Dark Lord due to working within the space limitation. He's basically the satan of the Zelda universe and satan goes by many names, if not Dark Lord or Prince of Darkness, I could perhaps go with Evil King or Demon King?

Also wanted to say that I was playing the hack and I found a typo: The old man on the top right says "Show this to the old women." instead of "Show this to the old woman." I'm not sure if this was intentional; I'm PRETTY sure there's only one old woman in the game but I could be wrong.
Yes, it was intentional. Like Midna said, there are more than one old woman in the game.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: SCD on March 28, 2016, 08:54:47 am
I think you should go with Demon King, it sounds cooler. Including it's what Nintendo of Japan has been calling him for years.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Midna on March 28, 2016, 04:31:27 pm
Even Nintendo of America seems to have switched to calling Ganon a "demon king" in recent games, or at least in A Link Between Worlds.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: vince94 on March 28, 2016, 06:10:51 pm
I'm not too fond of "Demon King," like, Ganon and his minions don't canonically come from hell or anything.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on March 29, 2016, 05:47:45 am
Even Nintendo of America seems to have switched to calling Ganon a "demon king" in recent games, or at least in A Link Between Worlds.
Interesting.

I checked Twilight Princess and the manual for Link's Awakening. I updated my previous post and made a correction on Ocarina of Time. Don't know how Wind Waker handles it.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: SleepyFist on March 29, 2016, 08:33:11 am
Here's what Ive got from my hack, though its less retranslation and more badly punching up what was already there.
(http://i.imgur.com/6Q5TUWy.png)
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: TRIFORCE89 on March 29, 2016, 09:39:21 am
How about something like this?

Long ago, Ganon, prince
of darkness, stole the
Triforce of Power.
Before Princess Zelda
was captured by Ganon's
minions, she split the
Triforce of Wisdom into
eight pieces and hid
them throughout Hyrule.
 "Link, find the pieces
    and save Zelda."


Ganon in red, Zelda in blue, Link in green. I really want this to read "throughout the land of Hyrule" instead, but ran out of space.


Also, I'm in the camp of keeping the iconic "Take this" line, if only because it looks a little squished on the third line introduced by the relocalization
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Zynk on March 29, 2016, 08:31:04 pm
Ganon in red, Zelda in blue, Link in green. I really want this to read "throughout the land of Hyrule" instead, but ran out of space.

Maybe remove the "Ganon's minions"(since the minions are not that important to the into plot summary) and make "eight" as "8"?
Idk about the text length if it would fit tho.

Quote
Long ago, Ganon, prince
of darkness, stole the
Triforce of Power.
Before Zelda
was captured by
Ganon, she split the
Triforce of Wisdom into
8 pieces and hid
them throughout Hyrule.
"Link, find the pieces
and save Princess Zelda."
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Seihen on March 30, 2016, 03:36:31 am
I'm not too fond of "Demon King," like, Ganon and his minions don't canonically come from hell or anything.

I feel pretty much the same here. The Japanese doesn't even necessarily explicitly make him a demon.

Warlock King?
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: SCD on March 30, 2016, 04:57:45 am
What about "Dark King" or "Gerudo King"?
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Midna on March 30, 2016, 06:31:45 am
I vote against Gerudo King. The point of the hack is to make a fresh script for an old game, not to make connections to later games in the series.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: MathUser2929 on March 30, 2016, 01:05:05 pm
What about "Dark King" or "Gerudo King"?

Darkling. I smell your blood. You're a vampire? Could it be?
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: w1ck3d on April 04, 2016, 10:45:42 am
Finally got around to playing through 1st quest, while taking notes and through I'd offer some phrasing suggestions. There'd probably be more, but I'm sure I missed a few interactions and I have yet to play through 2nd quest relocalized.

Quote
It's dangerous to travel alone. Take this.

Choose, but choose wisely.

If you have the heart of a hero, I'll let you have this.

Arrows cost money. Try not to run out.

Best goods in the kingdom!

Show this to the old woman.

Buy a potion and be on your way.

Care to play a game of chance?

Walk into the waterfall.

Travel North, West, South, West, through the Lost Woods.

Use any tunnel you want.

Aim for the Gohma's eye.

Another adventure awaits our hero.
Press the start button.

Also I was thinking it'd be nice to redo the staff credits, so the real names are displayed with their pseudonyms. So it'd kinda look like this after.

Quote
Executive Producer
Hiroshi Yamauchi

Producer
Shigeru "Miyahon" Miyamoto

Directors
Shigeru "Miyahon" Miyamoto
Takashi "Ten Ten" Tezuka

Designer
Takashi "Ten Ten" Tezuka

Programmers
Toshihiko "Nakazoo" Nakago
Yasunari "Yachan" Soejima
Tatsuo "Marumaru" Nishiyama

Sound Composer
Koji "Konchan" Kondo
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: ShadowOne333 on April 04, 2016, 10:54:07 am
Finally got around to playing through 1st quest, while taking notes and through I'd offer some phrasing suggestions. There'd probably be more, but I'm sure I missed a few interactions and I have yet to play through 2nd quest relocalized.

Also I was thinking it'd be nice to redo the staff credits, so the real names are displayed with their pseudonyms. So it'd kinda look like this after.

The formatting for that part is stored as a table (I think)
I edited them once and the most I could do was print out the first name's first letter.and their last name.
i.e. MIYAHON = S.MIYAMOTO.

You would have to do some fancy stuff for that part if you were to put it like you mention.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on April 04, 2016, 06:56:30 pm
Thanks for all suggestions! Much appreciated. SleepyFist, nice way of handling the limited space. How does it affect the music sync? The intro theme matches the visuals quite well if I remember correctly. Perhaps not noticeable with such a small difference?
How about something like this?

Long ago, Ganon, prince
of darkness, stole the
Triforce of Power.
Before Princess Zelda
was captured by Ganon's
minions, she split the
Triforce of Wisdom into
eight pieces and hid
them throughout Hyrule.
 "Link, find the pieces
    and save Zelda."


Ganon in red, Zelda in blue, Link in green. I really want this to read "throughout the land of Hyrule" instead, but ran out of space.
I agree with Oxhyde on the "minions" part, not mentioned in the manual story either. "across" instead of "throughout" is also a way to shorten it. Also, if you take the beginning from Nintendo's redo, you'll either need to have the comma after Ganon in red or include a double spacing. I prefer the original color coding though (characters and Triforces).

Other examples.

Long ago, the Demon King
Ganon stole the Triforce
of Power, and imprisoned
Princess Zelda. Before
she was captured, Zelda
split the Triforce of
Wisdom into eight pieces
and hid them across the
land...


"...land of Hyrule" would fit there as well.

Long ago, the Demon King
Ganon invaded Hyrule and
stole the Triforce of
Power. Before Princess
Zelda was captured, she
split the Triforce of
Wisdom into eight pieces
and hid them across the
land...


Are these two any better, worse or just as bad? :P
Finally got around to playing through 1st quest, while taking notes and through I'd offer some phrasing suggestions. There'd probably be more, but I'm sure I missed a few interactions and I have yet to play through 2nd quest relocalized.
Thanks! Nice suggestions. Agree that "travel" sounds better there, but we will also have to keep the formatting in mind.

current:

__It’s dangerous to go__
__alone. I’ll give you__
__this._________________


formatting options:

__It’s dangerous to_____
__travel alone.
__I’ll give you this.___

___It’s dangerous to____
___travel alone. I’ll___
___give you this._______

___It’s dangerous to____
___travel alone.________
___Take this.___________

___It’s dangerous to____
___travel alone. Take___
___this.________________


Also I was thinking it'd be nice to redo the staff credits, so the real names are displayed with their pseudonyms. So it'd kinda look like this after.
Someone else made a similar suggestion. I agree that it would be nice but it's not something I will attempt for this project. Also, Tatsuo Nishiyama and "Marumaru" is not the same person, he goes by the name I. Marui in the prototype version. It's unknown who I. Marui is, the only thing I know is that he returned as a programmer under the same pseudonym in Zelda II where you find Tatsuo Nishiyama under the name "Nishiyan". I. Marui (Marumaru) was also a programmer on Heart-Pounding Panic (Super Mario Bros. 2).
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: w1ck3d on April 05, 2016, 06:56:09 am
Also, Tatsuo Nishiyama and "Marumaru" is not the same person, he goes by the name I. Marui in the prototype version. It's unknown who I. Marui is, the only thing I know is that he returned as a programmer under the same pseudonym in Zelda II where you find Tatsuo Nishiyama under the name "Nishiyan". I. Marui (Marumaru) was also a programmer on Heart-Pounding Panic (Super Mario Bros. 2).

Actually the Japanese wikipedia pages for Zelda II and Doki Doki Panic list Tatsuo Nishiyama as Marumaru, while the Japanese LOZ page list I.Marui (in English) as Marumaru. The general consensus seems to be that they're the same guy, but for whatever reason it's listed like that. Not sure where that "Nishiyan" business came from, but it's wrong.

Japanese LOZ wikipedia page (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%83%80%E3%81%AE%E4%BC%9D%E8%AA%AC)
MARUMARU (I.MARUI)

Japanese Zelda II wikipedia page (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%AA%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AF%E3%81%AE%E5%86%92%E9%99%BA)
MARUMARU(西山達夫) = Nishiyama Tatsuo
NISHIYAN(西田泰也) = Nishida Yasunari

Japanese Doki Doki Panic wikipedia page (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A2%E5%B7%A5%E5%A0%B4%E3%83%89%E3%82%AD%E3%83%89%E3%82%AD%E3%83%91%E3%83%8B%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF)
MARUMARU(西山達夫) =Nishiyama Tatsuo

Japanese LOZIII wikipedia page (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%83%80%E3%81%AE%E4%BC%9D%E8%AA%AC_%E7%A5%9E%E3%80%85%E3%81%AE%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B9)
西山達夫 = Nishiyama Tatsuo
西田泰也 = Nishida Yasunari
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on April 05, 2016, 09:11:19 am
Excuse me while I go and eat my hat. ;)

Thanks for clearing that up, it's been a little mystery for me.  :beer: Tatsuo Nishiyama is also credited as Map Programmer in Super Mario World.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: SleepyFist on April 05, 2016, 11:29:48 am
Thanks for all suggestions! Much appreciated. SleepyFist, nice way of handling the limited space. How does it affect the music sync? The intro theme matches the visuals quite well if I remember correctly. Perhaps not noticeable with such a small difference?
Ive been playing with sound off but I've turned it back on to check, still seems to sync pretty well to me but any problems might be more apparent to someone who's played longer.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: w1ck3d on April 06, 2016, 12:43:17 pm
Started to work my way through 2nd quest and I realized something I'd never noticed before, 2nd quest is structurally broken because of the changes in gameplay mechanics. What I mean is that due to pols voice being made weak to arrows due to the NES controller lacking a microphone, second quest is structurally broken because you do not get the bow til the 5th dungeon and pols voice is first introduced in the 2nd dungeon. I found it interesting, that they'd completely overlook this. Looked at the maps to vgmaps and from what I can tell, pols voice only appears in five rooms before 5th dungeon, so I can see how they'd overlook this. But it is still an interesting unintended quirk, due to how they handled the microphone situation.

I was under the impression that Nintendo remapped the microphone function to the 2nd controller's select button, so I thought I'd do a quick experimentation of how the 1991 Famicom cartridge release handled it and at least under an emulator the select button did not work. Nor did using arrows, which is discovered pols voice is completely immune to. (Instead of wasting time replaying the Famicom cart I used "zelda" + game genie codes for items and went strait to 2nd dungeon with the bow.)

I also discovered that with this 1991 Famicom release Nintendo attempted to simulate the missing FDS audio channel... with bad results. There's new tone added to the overworld & dungeon (and probably more) music that sounds like some hillbilly blowing into a jug. My ears are still bleeding.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Midna on April 06, 2016, 01:11:55 pm
Isn't the Japanese cart version identical to the US release, sound-wise? I always thought that was the case anyway.

(Also, the Japanese cart version was released in '94, not '91.)
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: w1ck3d on April 06, 2016, 04:30:57 pm
Yes, it's definitely using the NES audio. But, it appears some music has been changed to sound similar to the FDS tracks. Or at least it does not sound identical on my end.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on April 06, 2016, 04:56:39 pm
As Pols Voice can still be defeated with the sword, I don't really see a problem with how they handled it in the NES version. It just makes a few dungeon rooms a little tougher.

And yes, the Famicom re-release didn't come out until 1994 despite its 1992 copyright on the title screen. I recall the re-release handled the Pols Voice weakness the same way as the FDS version.

I do know they rewrote the enemy description, but that may just be because there already was a hint in the game itself.

FDS Manual:
耳の大きなオバケ。大きな音に弱いという弱点を持つ。 (A ghost with big ears. It has a weakness against loud noise.)

FC Manual:
耳の大きなオバケ。見かけはかわいいが強敵だ。 (A ghost with big ears. Appears cute but it is a formidable enemy.)

Seems your ROM is a bad dump or something. In terms of audio it should be identical to the NES version.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Midna on April 07, 2016, 01:08:31 am
Probably something along those lines, yeah. I especially don't think they'd add any instruments to the overworld theme since that's one of the tracks that's 1:1 identical between FDS and NES.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on April 07, 2016, 07:54:17 pm
I double checked the manual for the Japanese cart, and another hint related to Pols Voice weakness was also removed. So I guess the removed hint and rewritten enemy description is no coincidence. Despite the unchanged weakness from the FDS version, it seems that Nintendo felt they had to downplay this feature with the new hardware just released.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Mari42 on April 08, 2016, 10:51:59 am
I'm not sure if you forget, and I know this isn't a part of a translation. But, if you go to the first dungeon then there was a locked door in the beginning. So, If you get out of the 1st dungeon and go back into dungeon, then it unlocks itself which means you don't even need a key to unlock the 1st door. I guess this one was bugged I'm sure.  :huh:

This:

(http://i.imgur.com/Uw5Rg1U.png)

to this:

(http://i.imgur.com/nkjTrAi.png)
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on April 09, 2016, 05:31:27 pm
I'm not sure if you forget, and I know this isn't a part of a translation. But, if you go to the first dungeon then there was a locked door in the beginning. So, If you get out of the 1st dungeon and go back into dungeon, then it unlocks itself which means you don't even need a key to unlock the 1st door. I guess this one was bugged I'm sure.  :huh:
No problem, have not forgotten. But I don't know if there's any cure for it. I don't know, perhaps someone with more hacking experience than me would be able to fix it. See this thread for info on some of the mechanics at work behind it: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/563433-the-legend-of-zelda/63821853 (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/563433-the-legend-of-zelda/63821853)

Another gameplay bug is the "Patra Glitch" The rotating pattern is sometimes disrupted on the types that rotate like a gyroscope. What happens is that some of the smaller ones break loose and begins to rotate around their own axis, when you kill some of the small ones. Don't know exactly what it is that trigger it but I have experienced it several times.

There's also a lot of minor audio and visual quirks:

* No sound effect for the cursor on the subscreen when you select the boomerang, in the rare case you're not equipped with a sword.

* The heart cursor on the file select screens share palette with the Magical Sword. This makes the hilt white if you go to the erase screen.

* Palette issue on movable block in Level-8 (2nd Quest) where a Digdogger resides. The block receive a palette change when you move it. A Digdogger and pushable block in the same room is probably the reason for it.

* The compass mark turn light green when you face a Gleeok and brown when you encounter a Dodongo or Digdogger. (the mark alternate between those colors and red) It also turns red when you face Ganon, and when you beat him the mark turns orange due to the Triforce.

* The dark color on movable blocks turns black when you push them in Level 4 (1st Quest) and Level 5 (2nd Quest). Similary, the dark grey on movable blocks turns black when you push them in Level 9 (both Quests).  But if I fix it, the palette of Zols, Gels, and Keese is affected, which makes them visible in the dark. This was a quite late change in the development as the prototype version didn't have the dark type of these enemies, hence the pushable blocks look normal in that version.

I guess most are due to memory and palette limitations. And fortunately these are extremely minor issues. Also, the "missing audio" when buying a key I pointed out earlier makes sense, keys and hearts aren't subscreen items and therefore does not have the additional item-get tune, you don't hear it when picking them up elsewhere either. So I don't know what I was thinking.  :D
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: w1ck3d on April 10, 2016, 07:02:58 am
Can't say I've ever considered the level-1 locked door trick a 'glitch', always seemed like an easter egg for beginners. But while we're on the subject of keys, if possible, I'd like to see an infinity sign replace the 'A' that appears after collecting the magical key. Even a simple 'X' would make more sense than an 'A'.

Something like this would be a nice improvement..
(http://i64.tinypic.com/16ifrcm.png)
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: Midna on April 10, 2016, 10:12:20 am
The A stands for "almighty" according to the Japanese manual.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: TRIFORCE89 on April 20, 2016, 10:57:11 pm
Also I was thinking it'd be nice to redo the staff credits, so the real names are displayed with their pseudonyms. So it'd kinda look like this after.
If interested, this is how the credits were presented in the FDS prototype version (via https://tcrf.net/Proto:The_Legend_of_Zelda#Ending (https://tcrf.net/Proto:The_Legend_of_Zelda#Ending)):

(https://tcrf.net/images/d/d8/ZeldaFDSStaffProto.png)

Not sure why Ten-Ten wasn't listed here as T.Tezuka or Konchan as K.Kondo, but there it is.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on April 26, 2016, 06:24:25 pm
The A stands for "almighty" according to the Japanese manual.
Yeah, it may seem silly of me but that alone is a reason for me not to alter it. But I agree, w1ck3d. An infinity symbol would make more sense.

If interested, this is how the credits were presented in the FDS prototype version...
Not sure why Ten-Ten wasn't listed here as T.Tezuka or Konchan as K.Kondo, but there it is.
Or why Tatsuo Nishiyama (if it's really him) goes by the name I.Marui. There are several reasons why developers used pseudonyms back in the NES and SNES era, I think Nintendo or at least EAD began using their real names when they began work on Super Famicom. Altering the staff roll is outside the scope of my project but as some continue to ask for it I guess I can do a separate patch. It's easily done.

It's dangerous to travel alone. Take this.

Choose, but choose wisely.

If you have the heart of a hero, I'll let you have this.

Arrows cost money. Try not to run out.

Best goods in the kingdom!

Show this to the old woman.

Buy a potion and be on your way.

Care to play a game of chance?

Walk into the waterfall.

Travel North, West, South, West, through the Lost Woods.

Use any tunnel you want.

Aim for the Gohma's eye.

Another adventure awaits our hero.
Press the start button.
Getting back to your suggestions, I really like what you did. Your line for the sword guy is quite clever. The two lines of text I wanted to change even before upload was that one, and the one for the old guy hinting at its location. The latter is very wordy in the English version and its placement in the dungeon usually means you will see the hint twice in a very short amount of time (perhaps another way of the developers to say, you better upgrade your sword). Instead of "Did you get the sword from the old man on top of the waterfall?" would "Did you get the sword from the old man above the waterfall?" work or the less specific "Did you get the sword from the old man at the waterfall?" Actually, I think it's the only one from the original that I left alone.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: w1ck3d on April 26, 2016, 11:51:45 pm
Or why Tatsuo Nishiyama (if it's really him) goes by the name I.Marui. There are several reasons why developers used pseudonyms back in the NES and SNES era, I think Nintendo or at least EAD began using their real names when they began work on Super Famicom. Altering the staff roll is outside the scope of my project but as some continue to ask for it I guess I can do a separate patch. It's easily done.

What I think may have happened is that "I.Marui" was actually meant to be written "MaruII", as in "Maru(x)II" (MaruMaru, get it?) but the programmer that entered his pseudonym screwed it up. Which likely happened because of a combination of bad handwriting and the fact that Japanese normally list their surname first, followed by their birth name and this game does the opposite. This would explain why there no one can find information about a "I.Marui" working for Nintendo, why even the Japanese wiki page has it only written in English and why it appears that more than one person is using the same pseudonym.

Getting back to your suggestions, I really like what you did. Your line for the sword guy is quite clever. The two lines of text I wanted to change even before upload was that one, and the one for the old guy hinting at its location. The latter is very wordy in the English version and its placement in the dungeon usually means you will see the hint twice in a very short amount of time (perhaps another way of the developers to say, you better upgrade your sword). Instead of "Did you get the sword from the old man on top of the waterfall?" would "Did you get the sword from the old man above the waterfall?" work or the less specific "Did you get the sword from the old man at the waterfall?" Actually, I think it's the only one from the original that I left alone.

Thank you. Look a bit of work to come up with something that wasn't too wordy. Tho I'm not entirely sure how well even that one will fit into the script.

BTW I threw in a little Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade for the old man with the red potion or heart container choice, if you did not notice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF2UrYSDb3k

As for the line about the old man above the waterfall, I couldn't come up with anything better either.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on May 08, 2016, 11:24:06 pm
Interesting theory, you may be right about this. So I had a quick look at the staff roll, which one do you guys prefer?

(http://i.imgur.com/hDMJ5NC.png)
The length of Nishiyama's name kinda break the original format.

I have also tried to figure out what exactly they did to come up with the nicer looking screen transitions in the Japanese re-release without any results. I might perhaps move my work to that ROM instead.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: ShadowOne333 on May 09, 2016, 10:39:40 am
I vote for Number 2
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: SCD on May 09, 2016, 12:30:09 pm
I vote for the third image.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: John Enigma on May 09, 2016, 01:33:54 pm
I vote for the third image. It feels more organized without the little dots.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: KillerBob on May 09, 2016, 01:47:23 pm
I suspected that would be the choice. Thanks. I just wanted to be sure. I'll make a stand-alone patch of that then.
Title: Re: The Legend of Zelda - relocalized (help needed)
Post by: w1ck3d on May 09, 2016, 08:20:12 pm
Due to how much space Nishiyama takes up, I think the third one looks the best.