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General Category => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Sinis on January 17, 2014, 04:07:48 pm

Title: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Sinis on January 17, 2014, 04:07:48 pm
First off, let me post a link to an article about Nintendo's views on their Wii U so that way we can all be on the same page here.

http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/17/wii-u-not-selling/


This news literally took me by surprise but then I thought "So they finally admitted it...now what?"

I wonder of how much longer that an 'updated' version will come out like a remodel or even just an entire new console altogether.  I heard that they are focusing on wanting to go to handheld app's right now so maybe they'll be going to those in the future entirely?  Just speculation on my end for that one.


For myself, I own a Wii U but haven't touched it in a couple of months.  In my opinion, the Wii U feels like a 'super' 3DS but without the 3D feature stuff added into it.  Mainly bought it for Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate and hopefully some new Metroid and whatever other Zelda titles they come out with but that's about it since I'm more into Sony and PC gaming.

I'm curious of how many of their 'wooden' nickles Nintendo will be losing out on all of this after this announcement.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Nightcrawler on January 17, 2014, 05:58:03 pm
This has been a long time in the making. They were just plain lucky that the decline didn't start already with the Wii, which was just literally an overclocked Gamecube with a bluetooth motion controller. Nintendo has been trying to sell solely on the gimmick in the past several years while offering little else. While they got lucky once, it is now evident it will not work any longer. The compeition has far surpassed them now and it is painfully obvious now that Nintendo is lacking.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Nintendo ultimately move away from consoles and stick to handhelds where they hold a much nicer position. They will need to seriously rethink what they are doing in the console market. In the short term though, I expect some type of repackage, upgrade, or new gimmick to try and salvage sales. 70% under target is pretty poor performance, so they will be motivated to do something.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Kiyoshi Aman on January 17, 2014, 07:09:56 pm
With all due respect, the implication that the Wii is an overclocked Gamecube is entirely false and completely ignores how game-changing the Wiimote is. The fact that both Sony and Microsoft have had to implement the third dimension of control on their respective platforms underscores just how much the Wiimote changed gaming. The Wii didn't need to be graphically on pair with its competitors: the Wiimote set it apart in a way that disrupted that generation. Note how the Wii, until its successor was introduced, outsold its competitors by a fairly wide margin individually.

There is no such distinguishing feature to set the Wii U above the Wii, especially as the Wii U looks exactly like a Wii, gamepad aside. That alone has done more damage to the Wii U than the fact that the gamepad is an incredibly stupid gimmick. The Wiimote, whatever you may think of 'flailing' it, added an entirely new dimension of control and provided a new way for gamers to interact with their games. The gamepad is literally nothing more than a console-tied tablet with gaming-oriented buttons bolted on.

I don't know why you're trying to take Nintendo to task over the Wii when it dominated its generation almost as well as the DS dominated the PSP.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on January 17, 2014, 09:13:44 pm
Aerdan I agree with most of your post but it did not dominate the generation as much as you say it did: http://gematsu.com/2013/11/worldwide-playstation-3-sales-reach-80-million

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/17/xbox-360-80-million-sold-and-counting

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/library/historical_data/pdf/consolidated_sales_e1309.pdf

At first it did no question, but that's old news, outdated by years now.

Really, I'd argue there was no single winner, as most of Nintendo's sales were in two groups: 1. Diehard Nintendo Fans, of which there are an insane amount. 2. "New" fans that don't normally play a lot of games. Much of the standard gamer market which gamed on the GC's 3rd party games migrated to PS3 and X360.

The profitability question is also a bit muddled. The PS3 and X360 sold initially at a loss, the PS3 very much so due to the blu-ray drive of financial doom, but they eventually got the costs down, and had a huge amount of successful third party games alongside of their first party games. Nintendo did not have nearly as many third party games that sold hugely, but they had lower developmental costs both in terms of the future hardware and in terms of their own games. Plus, until the 3DS price cut, they had never sold a console at a loss before, so the Wii's base hardware made them a fuckton of cash.

Nintendo also did not jump on the Online Games bandwagon nearly as much as Sony and MS did. A large reason why WiiWare failed was the 60 or so MB limit it had, and it was never really pushed. Virtual Console on the other hand, made a lot of money but I don't think any public figures have been announced as to how much they made from it. PSN Store and XBLA sold a far, far higher amount of games, but they were, for the most part, not as profitable per sale as the VC ones were.

In addition to all of that, we don't know how much money the various video/music services and MS/Sony's outright selling of videos and music made them. Or, more importantly, how that was counted on their balance sheets. Those might not be listed under the video gaming portion of their list of corporate profits, I don't know. I don't really know where to look over than their SEC filings, and even then there's so much paper to look through there it'd take me ages.

Combine all of that with the fact that all these consoles are still selling, and who the fuck knows which of the three won the console war of last gen.

All we really know is that Nintendo made a fuckton of cash, Sony's gaming division lost a fuckton and then made a fuckton, and MS' gaming division almost entirely lost a fuckton.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: DarkSol on January 17, 2014, 10:34:55 pm
With all due respect, the implication that the Wii is an overclocked Gamecube is entirely false and completely ignores how game-changing the Wiimote is. The fact that both Sony and Microsoft have had to implement the third dimension of control on their respective platforms underscores just how much the Wiimote changed gaming. The Wii didn't need to be graphically on pair with its competitors: the Wiimote set it apart in a way that disrupted that generation. Note how the Wii, until its successor was introduced, outsold its competitors by a fairly wide margin individually.

There is no such distinguishing feature to set the Wii U above the Wii, especially as the Wii U looks exactly like a Wii, gamepad aside. That alone has done more damage to the Wii U than the fact that the gamepad is an incredibly stupid gimmick. The Wiimote, whatever you may think of 'flailing' it, added an entirely new dimension of control and provided a new way for gamers to interact with their games. The gamepad is literally nothing more than a console-tied tablet with gaming-oriented buttons bolted on.

I don't know why you're trying to take Nintendo to task over the Wii when it dominated its generation almost as well as the DS dominated the PSP.

But the Wii WAS an overpowered Gamecube, how else would have it maintained the backwards compatibility?   Being an underpowered console doesn't take away from how much of a gimmick the WiiMote was, even though tons of casual gamers became hooked to WiiSports.  The Wii captured that casual market where people who wouldn't normally have bought video games at all. (AND the console was freaking cheap as hell too compared to the 360 and the PS3.)

There is no one problem with the WiiU.  It's a comedy of errors that Nintendo has been perpetuating since the N64, and just just been getting worse since.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KaioShin on January 18, 2014, 02:41:19 am
With all due respect, the implication that the Wii is an overclocked Gamecube is entirely false and completely ignores how game-changing the Wiimote is.

It's not game changing at all, it was a fad. A fad that is already over.

Everyone hates the XBone for including the Kinect and being that much more expensive for it. Everyone celebrated the PS4 for not including Move despite earlier plans. NONE of the most anticipated games from the last E3 had anything to do at all with motion controls. Very game changing indeed.

Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: FAST6191 on January 18, 2014, 04:41:42 am
I wouldn't be surprised to see Nintendo ultimately move away from consoles and stick to handhelds where they hold a much nicer position. They will need to seriously rethink what they are doing in the console market. In the short term though, I expect some type of repackage, upgrade, or new gimmick to try and salvage sales. 70% under target is pretty poor performance, so they will be motivated to do something.

I think the same report also covers the 3ds selling below expectations, though that probably does not mean too badly.  Also would you really do that in a world where Android is slowly but surely eating your customer base (potential, previous and otherwise), attracting many of your better devs (either in whole or at least "well there is also an android version") and with the rapidly advancing hardware not looking likely to fade any time soon?
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on January 18, 2014, 06:28:53 am
It's not game changing at all, it was a fad. A fad that is already over.

Everyone hates the XBone for including the Kinect and being that much more expensive for it. Everyone celebrated the PS4 for not including Move despite earlier plans. NONE of the most anticipated games from the last E3 had anything to do at all with motion controls. Very game changing indeed.

I think honestly the only reason it's mostly over is because no one figured out how to make new styles of games with motion controls. Mostly they tried to either adapt existign games to motion controls(See a lot of ports of games that also have PS2 versions on the Wii) or they tried to adapt existing genres without seriously rethinking them.

There's nothing wrong with motion control per se, though as a cripple I get pissed off as fuck when games like Epic Mickey require it when the sequel works just fine on an X360 controller, it's just how people use it in their games.

Really, I think the Wii mighta had more third party support if all games that were not entirely based around the motion controls also required standard controller support via the GC controller port or the Classic Controller. I know I'd still have my copy of Epic Mickey, I enjoyed the little I played of it.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KaioShin on January 18, 2014, 06:34:53 am
I think honestly the only reason it's mostly over is because no one figured out how to make new styles of games with motion controls.

Either not a single developer (including Nintendo themselves) figured out a good idea for it in 8 years because they are ALL incompetent and stupid or there simply isn't that much use for limited motion controls (without haptic feedback!) as you might imagine. Occam's Razor.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Kiyoshi Aman on January 18, 2014, 07:08:15 am
Either not a single developer (including Nintendo themselves) figured out a good idea for it in 8 years because they are ALL incompetent and stupid or there simply isn't that much use for limited motion controls (without haptic feedback!) as you might imagine. Occam's Razor.

Considering how many developers put out buggy piles of shit like Skyrim or Battlefield 4 or SimCity 5, do you really have to imagine a world with incompetent studios?
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: DarkSol on January 18, 2014, 07:51:23 am
Considering how many developers put out buggy piles of shit like Skyrim or Battlefield 4 or SimCity 5, do you really have to imagine a world with incompetent studios?

Considering that two out of the three examples you posted came from one publisher, and that publisher just happens to be EA...  :thumbsup:

I think that a lot of people are overlooking the fact that Nintendo had to adjust their forecast by 70%, in the negative, with the respect to the WiiU.  That is a huge problem.  Companies don't just write off a -70% change, and shareholders certainly won't idly sit by and be okay with this.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Isao Kronos on January 18, 2014, 09:47:44 am
As an aside, I think my favorite Wii games used the motion control as a supplement to controlling gameplay rather than one of the sole methods of controlling gameplay. Like No More Heroes.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: DarkSol on January 18, 2014, 07:16:56 pm
Yeah, Nintendo is getting a beating in the stock market today.  -17% change in one day is horrible for any company.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Sinis on January 19, 2014, 03:44:50 pm
Yeah, Nintendo is getting a beating in the stock market today.  -17% change in one day is horrible for any company.


One hell of a nose dive that's for sure!

It's how the saying goes "Either keep up with the times or make room for someone else to give it a try."
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 19, 2014, 03:54:10 pm
Keeping up with the times means going mobile. I don’t care if it’s bad for business; screw everything about that.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: SargeSmash on January 19, 2014, 03:57:45 pm
It should be noted that their projections were ridiculously rosy in the first place.  I don't think the Wii U is going to be a complete flop, even if it doesn't achieve the stratospheric success that the Wii did.  And if Nintendo hadn't gone the disruptive route, we'd have been talking about this with their non-Wii Gamecube successor many years ago.

The gambit didn't pay off this time (yet).  But taking that chance at least gives them a shot at sniffing first place, as opposed to perpetually in third place.  At least if they end up there this time, they were swinging for the fences again.  (Seriously, guys, the GamePad is awesome, just for the off-screen capability.  I can multitask so much more easily that I wish all my other consoles had this ability tightly integrated.)

Keeping up with the times means going mobile. I don’t care if it’s bad for business; screw everything about that.

Agreed.  Screw that.  Depending on how much convergence we see this gen between PC and consoles this generation, Nintendo might end up in a pretty good spot as having the only home console that doesn't feel like a slightly-compromised gaming PC.

Also, let's talk again when we get Mario Kart and Smash.  I have a feeling that will move some units.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Nightcrawler on January 19, 2014, 07:53:10 pm
I think honestly the only reason it's mostly over is because no one figured out how to make new styles of games with motion controls. Mostly they tried to either adapt existing games to motion controls(See a lot of ports of games that also have PS2 versions on the Wii) or they tried to adapt existing genres without seriously rethinking them.

I think I might agree with this. The vast majority of Wii games were continually designed in such a way that they didn't need any motion controls to play equally as well. There simply wasn't many innovative titles that utilized the Wiimote in a new and exciting, game changing way. After the general public got tired of Wii Sports and realized it wasn't that great, they quickly moved on. ;D The rest of the fans got saddled with titles like New Super Mario Brothers requiring motions controls when it really didn't benefit in any way from motion controls. Thus the motion controls came as a tacked on 'waggle' gimmick to many games, similar to the stylus usage on the DS. There is just way to much poor usage of these additions that it overshadows any real smart innovative ones.

Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 19, 2014, 08:32:07 pm
At least the Wiimote doesn’t have the “zero button mouse” problem! I may have an overinflated sense of how important video games are in the grand scheme of things, but almost everything cool that has been done with the Kinect has very little to do with gaming (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinect#Third-party_development).
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: MisterJones on January 19, 2014, 09:02:58 pm
I actually enjoyed the stylus use in some of the games for the ds: canvas curse, bowser inside story, nitnedogs, sim ccty, etc
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: FAST6191 on January 20, 2014, 06:45:42 am
Yeah there was precious little that did stylus stuff as more than a pointless addon at first but as time went on it got good, certainly I have caught myself wanting a stylus in many other games for various things. Pity it took so long to get some really nice card games. I still have a good chunk of the Wii library to go through but I have yet to find anything that I would say truly benefits motion controls. Maybe if it is was considerably more accurate but it is not the case, part of that considerable chunk does include the motion plus but I would like to think I would have heard if it is was the path to the land of milk and honey.

On going mobile... I actually do not care for most Nintendo handheld games (it was mostly third party stuff I liked on the GBA and DS, a significant percentage of which are already doing IOS/android stuff) but I reckon it would be a good thing.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KaioShin on January 20, 2014, 07:30:50 am
The stylus was either used as a one-button mouse replacement (worked somewhat ok) or as a scribble vertically or horizontally as fast as you can button mashing replacement. The later is the lamest game mechanic in existence. Incidentally, the Wiimote was used to do exactly the same in most games... That is always the goto mechanic for these awesome "innovative" input methods, twitch around like a spastic monkey having a seizure to win!

But as long as people continue to play such crap, they'll get the games they deserve.

--------

The 3DS is still making tons of money for Nintendo, especially in Japan. I haven't looked up any numbers, but I think it did well in the west over the holiday season too. I got one at that time, several people I know did and half the IRC channel was talking about it too. I guess the 3DS has finally crossed the "good enough amount of interesting games"-threshold. Nintendo won't change their mobile strategy, they have no reason to. The question is what they'll do with the home console market. They just can't go on as if nothing happened. Iwata needs to go for a start.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Kiyoshi Aman on January 20, 2014, 08:02:26 am
So...how many touch-enabled DS games did you try? Because I can name at least three which actively use the stylus in more ways than the ones you described: Phantom Hourglass (primary input device), Okamiden (drawing), and Brain Age (primary input device).
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KaioShin on January 20, 2014, 08:18:47 am
I played several dozen, how many did you play? You draw lines or numbers in the games you mentioned, oh hey guess what you can do with a mouse in MS Paint? Maybe drawing a circle feels slightly more natural with a stylus (unless you have normal sized hands, in which case the DS micro stylus would just cramp your hands), but it's still super basic boring stuff.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: MisterJones on January 20, 2014, 10:17:29 am
thats like saying pressing buttons is like super boring and lame. your argument doesnt hold any weight the way your present it.  its not about how "innovative" they were, but rather how well implement in the game context were. i mean, we all can agree that dawn of sorrow binding spell mechanic was laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame. but bowser special moves on m&l bis wasnt lame. same for trauma center.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: FAST6191 on January 20, 2014, 10:21:23 am
Card games

The GBA had some incredible card games (which took a while to end up on the DS.... stupid poker games) but with a touch screen it was worlds apart.

There are plenty of actual touch screen games I like as well (Doodle Hex, things like world of sand,  but between card games and simplifying menus (or even rendering them intuitive) I hold the touch screen more than earned its keep. Now I am certainly not about to say drop buttons for touch screen (at least not this side of some of the more fun polymers) but I will say anything that does not have a measure of touch screen ability in handheld world, SNES and back emulation machines aside, is doing it wrong.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KaioShin on January 20, 2014, 10:30:12 am
thats like saying pressing buttons is like super boring and lame. your argument doesnt hold any weight the way your present it.  its not about how "innovative" they were, but rather how well implement in the game context were. i mean, we all can agree that dawn of sorrow binding spell mechanic was laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame. but bowser special moves on m&l bis wasnt lame. same for trauma center.

Scribbling a "3" into a number box in Brain Age instead of picking a 3 from a list of numbers makes it somehow much more fun? Drawing a path for Link instead of just using the damn directional keys somehow changed the experience of a Zelda game? I haven't played M&L, but Trauma Center would have worked as a game with a mouse too. It is gimmicks, nothing of real substance.

Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: MisterJones on January 20, 2014, 11:49:48 am
Sure, I mean, yeah, a stylus is much like a mouse, which is pretty much the point, because you know, adding a mouse to a handheld device is like very awkward, yanno?

Scribbling a "3" into a number box in Brain Age instead of picking a 3 from a list of numbers makes it somehow much more fun?

Not *much* (thanks for the unasked hyperbole) more fun, but fun and relatable enough to the target audience.

You can head for reductionism all you want, in the end, there are people (including me) that enjoyerd the stylus implementation in *some* of the games, and are glad that a mouse alternative exists for handheld devices (well, back then, nowadays touch input is the norm in mobile).

I'm not going to argue that certain implementations of some of the DS features werent gimmicky, because sure as hell they were, like the goddamn "blow the mic" gimmick everyone and their mothers loved and was soooo sooooo soooo lame i couldnt believe it.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: SargeSmash on January 20, 2014, 02:14:52 pm
While a mouse and a stylus is certainly a similar device, I would certainly challenge someone to be as accurate in a drawing program with a mouse as opposed to an actual pen-style implement.

I agree that it's not the input method that's the problem, it's the implementation.  The stylus works very well for the things it was designed for, and not so well when it's trying to do things better accomplished with buttons.  While I didn't put much time into Brain Age, just the ability to write numbers on-screen as opposed to picking them out of a list (now I'm getting horrific flashbacks to spelling out words in NES Jeopardy) is an absolute revelation for that kind of software, and removes a significant barrier to non-gamers as well.  This is not a bad thing!
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 20, 2014, 02:42:55 pm
*PalmPilot flashback*
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: MisterJones on January 20, 2014, 02:44:10 pm
While a mouse and a stylus is certainly a similar device, I would certainly challenge someone to be as accurate in a drawing program with a mouse as opposed to an actual pen-style implement.

Challenge accepted: http://alevice.deviantart.com/
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Next Gen Cowboy on January 20, 2014, 04:57:07 pm
You been dipping into the mescal again? I freaking love that whale and turtle!
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: SargeSmash on January 20, 2014, 04:58:29 pm
Challenge accepted: http://alevice.deviantart.com/

Are all of those MSPaint with a mouse?  Which ones am I supposed to look at?

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it takes a lot of skill, practice, and time to do with a mouse what you can do with a simple pencil and piece of paper.  Or at least that's the way it has always been for me.  My brother is far more skilled than I, and he always uses a tablet and stylus (preferably with Wacom).

Good stuff, by the way!
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: MisterJones on January 20, 2014, 05:02:58 pm
Everything that doesnt look like pencil or pen are mouse. Like5 or 6 are mspaint actually.

And I get your point, I just took your challenge humorously.

The whale/turtle one is like really old now. Like 2003 old :(
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Bregalad on January 20, 2014, 05:15:38 pm
Quote
i mean, we all can agree that dawn of sorrow binding spell mechanic was laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame
Glad I'm not the only one to think this was the hardest part of boss battles.
Boss -> easy
rune -> aaaaarghhh

Thanks god it's the only CV game with this system in place, as I'm a huge fan of CV games on the GBA/DS.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Nightcrawler on January 20, 2014, 07:41:52 pm
I agree that it's not the input method that's the problem, it's the implementation.  The stylus works very well for the things it was designed for, and not so well when it's trying to do things better accomplished with buttons.

I think what makes me the most upset is one method or the other is typically forced upon us. Why can't they just allow alternate input configurations as standard so you COULD use the stylus or motion controls if you want, or those same functions could be mapped via buttons (to an extent where possible). Then we could we could play many of those in between games with the control scheme that makes sense to the individual. Obviously there are some games which it isn't really feasible to replace the motion controls or stylus, but that usually means the game was smartly designed to take best advantage of said input. :)

I know some games do actually do this, but not nearly enough! On the PC, I can practically use anything I want to control my games from a touchscreen to a Wiimote and everything in between! :P I can map it all in whatever haphazard way makes sense to me if I choose. For everyone else, the default will do, but at least there are options.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 20, 2014, 08:58:52 pm
The only real reason it gets much better on PC is that there is a fighting prayer of intercepting the input before it gets to the games. Most PC games don’t pay very good attention to remapping options, either. (Sooooo many Twinkies denied through the years... (http://www.designersnotebook.com/Columns/062_Bad_Game_Designer_V/unconfig062_bad_game_designer_v.htm))
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KingMike on January 20, 2014, 10:18:19 pm
Scribbling a "3" into a number box in Brain Age instead of picking a 3 from a list of numbers makes it somehow much more fun? Drawing a path for Link instead of just using the damn directional keys somehow changed the experience of a Zelda game? I haven't played M&L, but Trauma Center would have worked as a game with a mouse too. It is gimmicks, nothing of real substance.

If used properly, a stylus can work well. Like as a mouse.
But Phantom Hourglass is an example of a game that makes bad use of the stylus. It could work well if Nintendo limited to things like drawing maps or drawing the path of the boomerang etc. But Nintendo had to screw it up by making the stylus used everywhere else to. Moving, attacking, etc. where it didn't need to.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Avicalendriya on January 21, 2014, 03:35:46 pm
While a mouse and a stylus is certainly a similar device, I would certainly challenge someone to be as accurate in a drawing program with a mouse as opposed to an actual pen-style implement.

I've been drawing all my life, and started experimenting with digital art in 2008. My conclusion is that using a mouse to draw in a traditional manner is often cumbersome and slow, and usually leads to many errors and much time wasted redrawing and correcting. However, when doing certain kinds of pixel art, or when drawing straight lines, a pen & tablet can be bothersome and the mouse is the way to go.

The same sort of thing applies to video games. Traditional controllers and motion controllers should be applied to functionality that they are suited for, rather than the other way around.

I.S.T. brings up a very important aspect of gaming with motion controllers: Not everyone wants to or is capable of using motion controllers, and forcing a Player to use it is terrible design. Games are supposed to be accessible to all. Technology should empower rather than limit.

Remember when Crimson Dragon was initially slated to be a Kinect exclusive title? Not only was that a pointless decision, but in a way it was a statement: "Traditional controllers never really worked with Panzer Dragoon games."

I'm glad they realized their mistake and chose to implement controller functionality.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: SargeSmash on January 21, 2014, 05:14:34 pm
I've been drawing all my life, and started experimenting with digital art in 2008. My conclusion is that using a mouse to draw in a traditional manner is often cumbersome and slow, and usually leads to many errors and much time wasted redrawing and correcting. However, when doing certain kinds of pixel art, or when drawing straight lines, a pen & tablet can be bothersome and the mouse is the way to go.
Oh, yeah, there's definitely cases where a mouse is very useful.  I think that goes back to my original point, if you're using the right tool for the job, then all is well.  It's when you try to do the job with one style of input that is better suited to another that you run into trouble.  (I've been drawing for all my life, too, although I haven't done much in the last couple of years.  I'm still stuck on pencil-and-paper, and I'm not terrible, but I don't have much variability in what I'm able to draw, unlike my brother.)

Quote
The same sort of thing applies to video games. Traditional controllers and motion controllers should be applied to functionality that they are suited for, rather than the other way around.
Very much agreed with this.  The inputs themselves aren't the problem, it's how they're used.

Quote
I.S.T. brings up a very important aspect of gaming with motion controllers: Not everyone wants to or is capable of using motion controllers, and forcing a Player to use it is terrible design. Games are supposed to be accessible to all. Technology should empower rather than limit.
If I may play devil's advocate here, though...  traditional gaming controllers are a huge barrier to non-gamers.  I've come across lots of people that wouldn't dare pick up a controller because it looks insanely complicated to them.  And ironically, they're kinda right.  We gamers that have grown up in the hobby have had time (at least from my personal experience) to move from the two-primary-button NES controller to the 6-button SNES to the Dual Shock, and all the spinoffs in between.  We've had more time to adjust.  They haven't.  To us, a traditional controller may be empowering, because we can look at a game, and see where things would work just fine with a traditional controller.  Non-gamers, likely, will not see that, and the motion controls might seem more intuitive.

Just a thought.  I'm certainly not a fan of shoehorning in motion or touch or whatever "just because", but there are cases where I think it's central to the vision of the software.  When that's the case, I'm totally okay with forcing motion controls.

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Remember when Crimson Dragon was initially slated to be a Kinect exclusive title? Not only was that a pointless decision, but in a way it was a statement: "Traditional controllers never really worked with Panzer Dragoon games."

I'm glad they realized their mistake and chose to implement controller functionality.
Didn't Crimson Dragon turn out kinda iffy, anyway?  Playing the part of a contrarian for just a moment (wheeeee!), I can actually see where a rail shooter might benefit quite well from motion controls if done correctly.  The Wii certainly did quite well with rail shooters.  I can see the Wii remote being quite ideal for a game like Panzer Dragoon, and it's one of those series where, as good as they are, it just begs for a mouse- or stylus-style input device.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 21, 2014, 05:21:43 pm
If the Wii didn’t have a PD-style rail shooter, I mean, big missed opportunity there. (I wouldn’t know.)
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: SargeSmash on January 21, 2014, 05:33:59 pm
Quite a few, actually.  Probably the best is Sin and Punishment: Star Successor.  But there were some Dead Space and Resident Evil spinoffs that were supposed to be pretty good, and I also think House of the Dead showed up there.  Those probably don't count as "PD-style", though.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on January 21, 2014, 10:15:05 pm
House of the Dead: Overkill is great cheesy as fuck fun.

Sarge: I was more saying when the game's design does not suit motion controls. Epic Mickey was used as an example because it reallllllllly didn't suit them, the game being slammed in the press due to its camera controls being utter shite.

If it's a case where the game actually works with motion controls optimally, such as a light gun game, or a drawing game, or some other thing that is escaping me right now(And surely some are), then yeah motion controls only, but otherwise you just fuck over people who prefer standard controllers or those who can barely use motion controls, like myself. I'm a goddamned cripple, and a lot of games that do not need motion controls used them.

Optimal solution for Nintendo would have been to require both types of controls unless you apply and get an exception, but that's Nintendo for you. Lack of foresight(To be fair MS and Sony have lack of foresight as well, just not as bad).
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Celice on January 21, 2014, 11:19:26 pm
Wii forced-motion controls have also fucked over my brother, who is also a disable gamer (Duchenne's muscular dystrophy).

Luckily we can at least get emulators to allow him to play Nintendo's two of Nintendo's last fucking consoles. Can't wait for 3DS and WiiU emulation to break through so my brother can enjoy some new Nintendo games.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Avicalendriya on January 22, 2014, 10:59:09 am
I'm still stuck on pencil-and-paper

I hear you. I'm basically all about pen and paper.


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If I may play devil's advocate here, though...  traditional gaming controllers are a huge barrier to non-gamers.  I've come across lots of people that wouldn't dare pick up a controller because it looks insanely complicated to them.  And ironically, they're kinda right.  We gamers that have grown up in the hobby have had time (at least from my personal experience) to move from the two-primary-button NES controller to the 6-button SNES to the Dual Shock, and all the spinoffs in between.  We've had more time to adjust.  They haven't.  To us, a traditional controller may be empowering, because we can look at a game, and see where things would work just fine with a traditional controller.  Non-gamers, likely, will not see that, and the motion controls might seem more intuitive.

Just a thought.  I'm certainly not a fan of shoehorning in motion or touch or whatever "just because", but there are cases where I think it's central to the vision of the software.  When that's the case, I'm totally okay with forcing motion controls.

Well, I totally understand what you mean. The day that my brother and sister played Metroid for the first time demonstrated the expectations of someone who's never gamed before. First my brother played, and once he reached the first tall vertical shaft that Samus has to ascend, he did something interesting. He would jump for a platform, and in mid-air while pressing the d-pad in the direction of the jump, he would also move the controller in an arc that would have led Samus to the platform. He did this over and over with each jump.

Once my sister's turn came, she did the exact same thing! I explained to them that the game didn't work that way, but clearly they were expecting a much more natural experience from the controller.

I don't see anything wrong with devising new schemes of control, but the traditional controller works quite well. The controller has evolved to make room for better and more fluid means of control, too. For example, imagine playing Katamari without analog sticks. It can be done but not as smoothly.


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Didn't Crimson Dragon turn out kinda iffy, anyway?

I wouldn't know, I only have a second hand PlayStation 2 that someone gave me ten years ago!
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: SargeSmash on January 22, 2014, 12:20:18 pm
Sarge: I was more saying when the game's design does not suit motion controls. Epic Mickey was used as an example because it reallllllllly didn't suit them, the game being slammed in the press due to its camera controls being utter shite.

If it's a case where the game actually works with motion controls optimally, such as a light gun game, or a drawing game, or some other thing that is escaping me right now(And surely some are), then yeah motion controls only, but otherwise you just fuck over people who prefer standard controllers or those who can barely use motion controls, like myself. I'm a goddamned cripple, and a lot of games that do not need motion controls used them.

Optimal solution for Nintendo would have been to require both types of controls unless you apply and get an exception, but that's Nintendo for you. Lack of foresight(To be fair MS and Sony have lack of foresight as well, just not as bad).
I think we're mostly in agreement.  Didn't know you had some physical issues, I can see where that would change your perspective on these things significantly.  I completely agree, shoehorning it in is just stupid.  Multiple options are certainly good as well.  As much as I enjoyed it, I would have paid good money to be able to use the d-pad in the DS Zelda games.  (By the way, A Link Between Worlds is phenomenal.)

I hear you. I'm basically all about pen and paper.
Fun stuff!  The permanence of pen always gives me the willies, though, I guess I'm not good enough at planning ahead.  :P

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Well, I totally understand what you mean. The day that my brother and sister played Metroid for the first time demonstrated the expectations of someone who's never gamed before. First my brother played, and once he reached the first tall vertical shaft that Samus has to ascend, he did something interesting. He would jump for a platform, and in mid-air while pressing the d-pad in the direction of the jump, he would also move the controller in an arc that would have led Samus to the platform. He did this over and over with each jump.

Once my sister's turn came, she did the exact same thing! I explained to them that the game didn't work that way, but clearly they were expecting a much more natural experience from the controller.
Yep, I remember even doing as much myself.  It's just getting into it, and it just took time to condition myself to not lean or whatever.  The irony, of course, is that it still kicks in from time to time.  I think the one that hits me the most is if I'm playing a 3D game, and I'm trying to look around a corner, and the camera won't let me do it, I'll literally start trying to lean the proper direction to look out further.  There's got to me some interesting stuff they could do with that.  :)

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I don't see anything wrong with devising new schemes of control, but the traditional controller works quite well. The controller has evolved to make room for better and more fluid means of control, too. For example, imagine playing Katamari without analog sticks. It can be done but not as smoothly.
Oh, I definitely agree.  I'm still very much an old-school gamer, so I still mostly pine for traditional controls.  I also recognize that I've had 25+ years of that ingrained in my head, so I'm a little biased in that way.  (Analog sticks are good for lots of things, to be sure.  It benefited racing games quite well, too, although die-hards would tell you to use a racing wheel!)

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I wouldn't know, I only have a second hand PlayStation 2 that someone gave me ten years ago!
Nothing wrong with that!  I used to be well behind the curve.  I'm still behind it, just not quite as far anymore.  I usually give in on a new system in about year two or three, now that I have income.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KaioShin on January 22, 2014, 01:07:37 pm
Even the biggest Nintendo fanboy in the gaming sphere is saying Nintendo is doomed now: http://www.screwattack.com/shows/partners/game-overthinker/game-overthinker-special-fate-nintendo
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Avicalendriya on January 22, 2014, 02:11:01 pm
Even the biggest Nintendo fanboy in the gaming sphere is saying Nintendo is doomed now: http://www.screwattack.com/shows/partners/game-overthinker/game-overthinker-special-fate-nintendo

Access denied.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KaioShin on January 22, 2014, 02:22:20 pm
Ok try this: http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.de/2014/01/new-year-special-fate-of-nintendo.html

I watched it earlier on SA, dunno what happened there. Things got messy when he moved to blip, I get his new videos 3 times in my rss feeds now.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: SargeSmash on January 22, 2014, 03:29:21 pm
I think he's being a touch too dire here.  Especially his statement that everyone that is going to buy one has already.  If I had a quarter for everyone that I've heard on the Internet that said they'd buy one when the next price drop or Smash hits, I'd be a rich man.  I really do think folks are holding off until they view it as being its proper value.  Heck, I probably wouldn't own one now if GameStop hadn't had a special on the Deluxe Set at $250.  That was the magic point for me, and I think it is for a lot of others, too.  Plus, I don't think Mario alone is enough to move units.  There's significant diversity even amongst the Nintendo faithful, and they're all waiting for different things.

I know it was probably a throwaway line, but I think Steam Machines are going to flop hard.  I do see the PC-console convergence, though.

They may still end up with a Gamecube in the end, but Nintendo is most assuredly not "doomed".  (Good grief, I'm a Ninty fan, though, that last rant at the end nearly had me cheering.)
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Avicalendriya on January 22, 2014, 04:07:53 pm
Fun stuff!  The permanence of pen always gives me the willies, though, I guess I'm not good enough at planning ahead.  :P

I used to feel the same way and only used pencil. But a large part of ink is the discovery of improvisation. 'What will come out of this?' In one go, you lay it down and it's pretty much a journey every time. Sometimes the result bears resemblance to the initial concept that formed in the mind, while other times there was no plan at all, and the entire process was something like an exploration that ended at an unknown destination.

Not to mention the payoff: Finishing a detailed ink drawing in one take sure does feel good. Little mistakes are normal and I don't trip on them.

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Yep, I remember even doing as much myself.  It's just getting into it, and it just took time to condition myself to not lean or whatever.  The irony, of course, is that it still kicks in from time to time.  I think the one that hits me the most is if I'm playing a 3D game, and I'm trying to look around a corner, and the camera won't let me do it, I'll literally start trying to lean the proper direction to look out further.  There's got to me some interesting stuff they could do with that.  :)

I've been doing that lately as I play through Tourist Trophy! I'll lean into some of the more difficult turns...

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Nothing wrong with that!  I used to be well behind the curve.  I'm still behind it, just not quite as far anymore.  I usually give in on a new system in about year two or three, now that I have income.

A few years ago I bought Resident Evil 4 for eight bucks and proceeded to have one hell of an awesome and intense gaming experience. It doesn't matter if a game is "old" or several generations behind or whatever. Around this same time I picked up DQVIII and Shadow of the Colossus. So much fun and so little cash dropped.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Jorpho on January 22, 2014, 11:28:56 pm
Man, reading news about the demise of Nintendo makes me sad.

I miss the days when I, you know, played games.  Instead of reading about them and accumulating them.

House of the Dead: Overkill is great cheesy as fuck fun.
Except now that it's on the PC (complete with Ingenious Typing Controls), I might as well sell my Wii copy.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on January 22, 2014, 11:32:49 pm
That kind of game ain't as fun with mouse controls IMO.

That said, it includes levels from the PS3 version that the Wii version didn't have, so...
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: FAST6191 on January 23, 2014, 07:04:29 am
[game overthinker] that last rant at the end nearly had me cheering.

Personally I was giggling in the "oh dear" manner.

That said I do consistently underestimate the position Nintendo has for quite a few people.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Bregalad on January 23, 2014, 07:39:56 am
There is nothing new, since the N64 Nintendo has only released terrible home consoles, almost only 1st party games and very childish overall, while technically inferior to their concurrents and having horrible controllers. They have always and still does have a nice position in the handled market, though it has moved from actual gaming to sholveware in the DS timeline, and I haven't followed enough gaming more recently to know anything about the 3DS (I didn't even knew the WiiU existed at all before this thread).

The "computers and console as 2-in-1" thing is nothing new. Just think about the C64, MSX or Amstrad.

In any case I have so many games I won't ever buy anything new, no matter how awesome or amazing it is. Sorry Nintendo/Sony/whathever company, I won't ever invest in video games any more in my life. Unless I manage to finish all those I own right now, which is extremely, extremely unlikely. If this ever happens it would mean I have wasted my life playing games and doing nothing more interesting, so I sure don't wish this to happen.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: tryphon on January 23, 2014, 10:01:57 am
almost only 1st party games and very childish overall

For me, this is actually a pro. I'm fed up with FPS, hyper-violent and "realistic" games on PS3 (I don't have and don't want a Xbox). I'm watching regularly TV channels about games, and nothing seems really enjoyable to me but Nintendo games.

I bought my PS3 mainly to have a Blu-Ray media player with network abilities, I bought 2 games (SF4 and FF13) and I don't want any other (maybe Ni no Kuni is an exception, and yet, the game doesn't attract me but I love Ghibli). If I had to buy a console to play, it'd be a Nintendo one.

I miss Sega.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Bregalad on January 23, 2014, 10:18:53 am
I'm not into those hyper-violent dark serious games either. I just don't like them.
I like game with cute anime/manga graphics, but without being excessively childish either. Something like the Atelier Iris series : They are the most recent games I played and REALLY enjoyed.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: MisterJones on January 23, 2014, 10:52:44 am
while technically inferior to their concurrents

The Gamecube was technically superior to the playstation 2 (which is why shinji mikami wasnt too please when his team was forced to do a ps2 port and no other console had a re1 remake release).

Look how much that helped them.

And frankly the ds is so close of having a library as great as that of the gba. there is dirt yes, but so every other gaming console/handheld has had.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: FAST6191 on January 23, 2014, 12:08:58 pm
[N64 and after] having horrible controllers.

Fighting words there if that is to include the gamecube controller.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Bregalad on January 23, 2014, 01:40:16 pm

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The Gamecube was technically superior to the playstation 2
Oh sorry I wasn't aware of that, but I'll believe it. I had the N64 and Wii in mind when I wrote this. Of course the concept of "technically inferior" and "technically supperior" doesn't always says much.

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Fighting words there if that is to include the gamecube controller.
Yes it does. Unlike the N64 and Wii controllers which are simply unmanagable, the GC one is decent, but still bad. At least you can hold it in your hands without hurting yourself, but why are the buttons all over the place and why are them so huge ? The joystick and D-Pad sucks as well. This is far of the greatness of the SNES or PS1 controller for example.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KingMike on January 23, 2014, 02:43:44 pm
I agree that the tiny + can barely even be counted as a D-Pad.
I just finished a playthrough of Final Fantasy Mystic Quest for the Virtual Console, and when I can't even play something like THAT without the D-Pad being mildly annoying to operate correctly, that's bad. :P
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: SargeSmash on January 23, 2014, 03:59:25 pm
Personally I was giggling in the "oh dear" manner.

That said I do consistently underestimate the position Nintendo has for quite a few people.

Oh, it was cheesy as all get-outs.  But at the same time...  yeah, Nintendo holds a lot of cachet for me.  So while I was outwardly cringing at the cheesy execution, my inner fanboy (such as it is) was happy as can be.  ;)

Isn't the d-pad on the GC controller basically the same size as the GBA one?  I'm guessing this is why I don't really have any problems with it.  I played a ton of Soul Calibur II on GC, and didn't have much trouble at all.  It's small, but it's pretty accurate, not the mushy mess that is a 360 controller, or the original XBOX controller (the Controller S was passable).
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: FAST6191 on January 23, 2014, 04:06:05 pm
Personally the playstation controller ends up causing hand cramps for me during long sessions. The 360 and GC ones work well for me and are my 1) 2) list. SNES wise.... more than functional but nothing I really have to look back to with any great fondness. Other than the iffy c stick for the N64 Zelda ports/emulators and the lack of a left shoulder button I was very happy with the GC controller.

Sounds like one of those agree to disagree situations I reckon. I do still have to have a go with the Xbone and PS4 controller and I hear good things about both.

Back on the game overthinker and Nintendo thing... I guess this is one of the Sega meant Nintendo did not dominate in the UK and as such Nintendo is just another company. I see it no differently to the likes of Capcom and the pounding they are getting in recent times where Nintendo seem to be making many of the same mistakes and getting some minor encouraging words.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: M-Tee on January 26, 2014, 04:34:12 am
It's been many years since I've played a game with something other than my phone, a keyboard, or a joystick.

I really liked the gamecube controller though. I think Timesplitters, Monkeyball, Mario Kart, and XIII won me over on them. The main problem was ports of older games not having button layout options. Jumping with GC A and shooting with any if the other buttons was lame.

I don't much care one way or the other for ps/2/3 controllers. I liked 360 and Xbox micros or whatever. The original Xbox ones were unusable and Dreamcast was usable but uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 26, 2014, 05:32:33 am
you can’t rebuke the duke
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: FAST6191 on January 26, 2014, 07:16:29 am
I just saw your edit SargeSmash. My callipers and a "how spongy" test say yeah it is the same as the GBC and original GBA (SP and DS are different, no micro or DS lite here to test).

By the way you might want to test out the newer style rotatable 360 dpad, it is far from perfect but a definite improvement for a lot of things. Though if you are playing games where dpad is necessary it might be instead worth going for a fightstick or something.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: SargeSmash on January 27, 2014, 12:39:34 pm
I've definitely heard good things about the "transforming" d-pad.  I just can't bring myself to spend the money on it.  ;)  I've had like five 360 controllers for a while now, thanks to the local closeout / salvage store.  I've also got one of those Afterglow third-party controllers, and while the rest of it really isn't up to snuff (the analogs are a little looser, the triggers are also a bit sketch), the d-pad is quite excellent.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 27, 2014, 08:57:27 pm
I find the D-pad is not so bad for games that manage to use it as some sort of menu device, but man is that thing is fiddly :laugh:
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KaioShin on January 28, 2014, 09:57:15 am
Aaaand, Nintendo gets it wrong again.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/27/5352004/nintendo-reportedly-making-smartphone-mini-games

That sounds so bad. Unless their definition of mini-game covers at least full blown NES ports, but considering their pricing policy on the virtual console, I doubt it.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Gideon Zhi on January 28, 2014, 11:34:07 am
Do you really want to play Super Mario Bros 3 with finnicky touch-screen controls? Straight-up ports/emulated versions of old Nintendo games is a terrible idea.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Kiyoshi Aman on January 28, 2014, 11:46:57 am
http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/27/5352004/nintendo-reportedly-making-smartphone-mini-games

Nintendo says otherwise. Your move. (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/01/nintendo-game-demos-on-your-phone-not-so-fast-company-says/)
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Avicalendriya on January 28, 2014, 12:01:38 pm
Do you really want to play Super Mario Bros 3 with finnicky touch-screen controls? Straight-up ports/emulated versions of old Nintendo games is a terrible idea.

It was 2010 and I was sitting up on the third floor at Sega when some Genesis games for iPhone came into the department. I was assigned Ecco the Dolphin -- a game that I had never played back in the day.

The next few weeks were basically the same day repeated over and over: I'm trying to control a dolphin using "soft keys" on the touch screen, while my infamously sweaty hands result in less and less control of the device.

The difficulty of the game, my unfamiliarity with it, and my endless struggle to gain control resulted in an infuriating experience. The final level -- "Welcome to the Machine" -- pissed me off so much that I was cursing out loud and occasionally giving the desk a good punch. Total hell.

So the answer is no!
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KaioShin on January 28, 2014, 12:14:51 pm
Do you really want to play Super Mario Bros 3 with finnicky touch-screen controls? Straight-up ports/emulated versions of old Nintendo games is a terrible idea.

I was more thinking in lines of the size of the games than NES ports specifically. As in more than just a single minigame from Wario Ware taken out and released as an app.

Aerdan: I'm not responsible for writing that article, so you can unclench your butt cheeks.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 28, 2014, 09:03:56 pm
Ah, good ol’ war stories. Wish I’d graduated on time; I’d have some to share by now.

(When a part-time instructor mentioned in passing that he was around when they worked on a tie-in for a certain movie (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/godzilla-online), I let slip a “My God, I’m sorry!”

Yeah, I don’t think I won any brownie points there.)
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: DarkSol on February 01, 2014, 07:01:10 pm
It was 2010 and I was sitting up on the third floor at Sega when some Genesis games for iPhone came into the department. I was assigned Ecco the Dolphin -- a game that I had never played back in the day.

The next few weeks were basically the same day repeated over and over: I'm trying to control a dolphin using "soft keys" on the touch screen, while my infamously sweaty hands result in less and less control of the device.

The difficulty of the game, my unfamiliarity with it, and my endless struggle to gain control resulted in an infuriating experience. The final level -- "Welcome to the Machine" -- pissed me off so much that I was cursing out loud and occasionally giving the desk a good punch. Total hell.

So the answer is no!

Avi!  I haven't seen you around since ICQ, and that was AGES ago.  How the hell are you?

Also, Nintendo just doesn't get why they fucked up, hence why they are cutting Iwata and others executives' pay.  And it's only temporary.  How the hell does that make up for the loss in revenue due to the Wii U?  Hint: It doesn't.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: BRPXQZME on February 01, 2014, 07:34:21 pm
Oh, that’s not about the money; it’s about penance.

everything burns!
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: SargeSmash on February 02, 2014, 02:17:23 pm
That was my thinking as well.  It's not so much the money, it's showing that, yes, we're taking this very seriously, and our own personal honor is at stake.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Avicalendriya on February 02, 2014, 08:17:53 pm
Avi!  I haven't seen you around since ICQ, and that was AGES ago.  How the hell are you?

What's up DS?!

Man... we haven't talked in 13 years!

I've been pretty good man. Turned things around after many years squandered in the Bay Area. Endless commuting and working at thankless jobs is all behind me now.

How have you been doing?
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: What Defines A Monster? on February 04, 2014, 04:30:26 am
It's a shame that the Wii U is a flop, but, in all honesty, it's really just a continuation of everything that Nintendo's been doing for the past THIRTY YEARS or so.

The company is absolutely hardwired into the mindset of "We Shall Do What We Do And Damn The World Around Us", unable to shift and change in a fluid and rapid manner. When they DO appear to be adjusting to shifting tides, they do it in such a Nintendian way that it leaves people scratching their heads in confusion.

When the world began to adjust to standardized optical media -and it was plainly obvious that the CD was the way things were going- Nintendo made a cartridge based system, and then a puzzling proprietary magneto-optical... thing... and promptly lost massive amounts of third party support.

When the DVD became the heir-apparent format, Nintendo had the option of "one upping" Sony's PS2... but instead chose that weird minidisc format, again isolating it from the third parties who LIKED having more than 1GB of storage space- and eliminating Nintendo's console as one that people just might choose as a DVD player (one reason many people believe the PS2 took off so quickly was that dual functionality).

And onward and upward- Nintendo does what it does, seemingly in a vacuous bubble away from the influence of the people that actually buy its products.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Azkadellia on February 04, 2014, 04:55:25 am
In the future, Nintendo plans to move to a unified online identity. (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=760514)

Nintendo says they're open to acquisitions and mergers. (https://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/nintendo-says-open-merger-acquisition-220715429.html)
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on February 04, 2014, 11:47:40 am
It's a shame that the Wii U is a flop, but, in all honesty, it's really just a continuation of everything that Nintendo's been doing for the past THIRTY YEARS or so.

The company is absolutely hardwired into the mindset of "We Shall Do What We Do And Damn The World Around Us", unable to shift and change in a fluid and rapid manner. When they DO appear to be adjusting to shifting tides, they do it in such a Nintendian way that it leaves people scratching their heads in confusion.

When the world began to adjust to standardized optical media -and it was plainly obvious that the CD was the way things were going- Nintendo made a cartridge based system, and then a puzzling proprietary magneto-optical... thing... and promptly lost massive amounts of third party support.

When the DVD became the heir-apparent format, Nintendo had the option of "one upping" Sony's PS2... but instead chose that weird minidisc format, again isolating it from the third parties who LIKED having more than 1GB of storage space- and eliminating Nintendo's console as one that people just might choose as a DVD player (one reason many people believe the PS2 took off so quickly was that dual functionality).

And onward and upward- Nintendo does what it does, seemingly in a vacuous bubble away from the influence of the people that actually buy its products.

Starting with the GC, they've basically used modified DVDs(or in the case of the Wii U, Blu-Rays) as their formats. The GC used Mini-DVD with a different copy protection scheme(Incidentally, it holds about 1.5 gigs), the Wii uses single and dual layer DVDs with a different copy protection scheme, and the Wii U uses Blu-Rays with a different copy protection scheme.

The Wii's copy protection mechanics of course utterly failed, as it's one of the most easy to pirate games on consoles in history. Only the PSP is easier.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: BRPXQZME on February 04, 2014, 02:57:34 pm
Nintendo says they're open to acquisitions and mergers. (https://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/nintendo-says-open-merger-acquisition-220715429.html)
Funny how they didn’t mention who they could buy so much stock back from (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-04/nintendo-completes-buyback-as-founding-family-to-sell-shares.html).

It’s not exactly an Isao Okawa act of charity here, but I doubt that the Yamauchis are ready to let the old family business go to dross if they’ve got any say in it.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: DarkSol on February 05, 2014, 09:28:22 pm
What's up DS?!

Man... we haven't talked in 13 years!

I've been pretty good man. Turned things around after many years squandered in the Bay Area. Endless commuting and working at thankless jobs is all behind me now.

How have you been doing?

Not much, man.  Glad to hear you're doing well! :D 13 years?!  I can't believe it has been that long.  You should come to the IRC sometime.  (I "own" the RHDN chatroom, and we have a good community of regulars in there, if you're one for chatting.)

Oh, that’s not about the money; it’s about penance.

everything burns!

I didn't mean that the money they save from cutting Iwata's and other executive pay would equal out what Nintendo has lost.  My point is that Nintendo doesn't get what is causing them problems.  Cutting executive pay does not make up for the fact that the Wii U is doing horridly and that the 3DS is losing ground to smartphones and tablets.  Other executives have lost jobs at other corporations for lesser shellackings in the market place.  While I think it's cute that Nintendo apparently has faith in Iwata, I think it's misguided.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Jorpho on February 05, 2014, 10:26:56 pm
The Wii's copy protection mechanics of course utterly failed, as it's one of the most easy to pirate games on consoles in history.
Has there been any speculation as to why they didn't seem to attempt to patch LetterBomb?  I remember reading about their initial efforts to block the first Twilight Princess exploit (and how they did it badly).  I also remember reading that every single different version of the System Menu is chained together in the Wii BIOS, so were they running out of breathing room, or something?
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on February 06, 2014, 03:35:36 am
No official information has come out. I personally think they just gave up.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Mew seeker on March 09, 2014, 09:04:55 am
I recently saw a video (http://youtu.be/FS1p7W5dmBE) talking about both the Wii U and the Virtual boy and the causes behind their failures.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: What Defines A Monster? on April 09, 2014, 10:03:56 am
I don't think it's fair to compare the Virtual Boy and the Wii U.

The Virtual Boy was a prototype- Gunpei Yokoi intended for the final version to be much lighter and use color LEDs instead of the pure red ones. But Nintendo got impatient and shoved the thing out the door before it was ready- then blamed Yokoi when the thing failed miserably.
I honestly believe that if the Nintendo had displayed the slightest amount of patience and allowed Gunpei to perfect the device he had been working on, history would be much much different, and he might even perhaps not be dead right now.

The Wii U, on the other hand, I will assert is a failure on a conceptual level, not just on a practical level. Everything about it was a misstep, from virtually every angle. Gameplay-wise the tablet alienates the older market who were initially drawn to the Wii Remote's simplicity. From a gamer standpoint, the system has far too few games and is far too weak to compete on a fair level with the PS4 and the X1 (and that goes from a developer standpoint as well). From the general consumer standpoint, as a system that wants to be a media centerpiece it fails because Nintendo has purposefully removed BC and the ability to play bluray movies.
Add to that a price point that is wholly inappropriate for a system of that caliber in 2014 and you have as a result a system that has no chance of achieving a high level of success in the marketplace, no matter what Nintendo does with it.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on April 09, 2014, 10:28:42 am
He was crossing the street when he was hit by a car. There's a possibility he'd still be alive but I kinda doubt it.

Edit: also the Wii U can play Wii games, so I dunno what you're talking about with BC. Yeah Gamecube stuff doesn't work even though it shouldn't be too much of an issue but ehhhhhhhh the GC was 11 years old when the Wii U came out.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: What Defines A Monster? on April 09, 2014, 10:32:49 am
He was crossing the street when he was hit by a car. There's a possibility he'd still be alive but I kinda doubt it.

No- he was rear ended and was inspecting the damage when he was sideswiped by another car and killed.

http://www.giantbomb.com/gunpei-yokoi/3040-45151/

Minor details of his death aside, I believe that if he had not been so unceremoniously dumped by Nintendo, he would have been in an entirely different place at that time, and thus would never have had the accident and thus never would have been sideswiped and thus would still be alive and well to this very day.

Quote
"Yeah Gamecube stuff doesn't work even though it shouldn't be too much of an issue "

Except that it does become an issue, because it means that you still have to have your Wii around, taking up space, in order to play your library of games, thus removing one of the main reasons for backwards compatibility in the first place- as well as cutting down the software library. And with such a small Wii U library in the first place, deliberately hobbling it is a very bad move.

Bear in mind that I'm not arguing that Nintendo had to have ADDED anything in order for GC Mode to work. I just believe that Nintendo shouldn't have walled it off. Determined hackers have discovered via certain means that the Wii U secretly has the means to play GameCube games- Nintendo just has disabled it.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on April 09, 2014, 10:35:37 am
Ah, I did not know that.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KingMike on April 10, 2014, 12:38:11 am
I don't think it's fair to compare the Virtual Boy and the Wii U.

The Virtual Boy was a prototype- Gunpei Yokoi intended for the final version to be much lighter and use color LEDs instead of the pure red ones. But Nintendo got impatient and shoved the thing out the door before it was ready- then blamed Yokoi when the thing failed miserably.
The way I heard that is...
so I hear in Japanese customs, if something fails, it has to blamed on a person, and that person has to be severely demoted (because they don't like to outright fire anyone).
So Yokoi let them blame him and resigned (probably because his almost-certainly-ingenious idea because an industry punchline by being released unfinished).
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Jorpho on April 10, 2014, 01:46:54 am
Except that it does become an issue, because it means that you still have to have your Wii around, taking up space, in order to play your library of games, thus removing one of the main reasons for backwards compatibility in the first place- as well as cutting down the software library. And with such a small Wii U library in the first place, deliberately hobbling it is a very bad move.

Bear in mind that I'm not arguing that Nintendo had to have ADDED anything in order for GC Mode to work. I just believe that Nintendo shouldn't have walled it off. Determined hackers have discovered via certain means that the Wii U secretly has the means to play GameCube games- Nintendo just has disabled it.
I don't know about where you are, but GameCube games are pretty hard to find hereabouts, and I bet there's a huge percentage of Wii owners out there who never owned any of them.

Besides, Nintendo would have at least needed to add GameCube controller ports, which would be an extra level of mechanical complexity.  And I'm not sure what those determined hackers are doing, but I would have thought that including BC would potentially introduce security issues and perhaps make quick and easy Wii U softmods feasible.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Malias on April 10, 2014, 02:17:41 am
Also, Nintendo has never had a system with compatibility more than one generation back anyway.  The Wii U is exactly in line with what Nintendo has done in the past.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: What Defines A Monster? on April 10, 2014, 03:35:19 am
Quote
" Nintendo would have at least needed to add GameCube controller ports"

I don't see why. It would be easy enough to allow the system to utilize the Classic Controller/Pro in order to support GameCube games.

Or for people that want it, just sell them this (at a tidy profit)-

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/06/you_can_now_use_your_gamecube_pad_on_your_wii_u

No need to add anything at all (especially not "mechanical complexity") to the Wii U itself.

Quote
"I'm not sure what those determined hackers are doing"

They've already cracked open the Wii U's system software and discovered that it contains a secret, locked-off GameCube mode in it. Which means the Wii U is perfectly able to play Cube games without any hardware modifications at all. You should look it up.

Quote
"Nintendo has never had a system with compatibility more than one generation back anyway"

Besides being a rather poor reason for doing anything, I should point out that until the DS, Nintendo's GB line was entirely capable of playing games from three generations (GB-GBC-GBA) of software. If Yokoi was still at the helm, I would imagine that the DS would have included the mode switch to enable GBC mode (and thus allow access to the entire line)
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KingMike on April 10, 2014, 10:01:20 am
GBC on a DS would've required an extra CPU, adding a bit of cost and some complexity to the console.
I can imagine Nintendo wanted to save money on the console, especially when that was one area they knew Sony was going to have to take a hit on when they launched the PSP. (though as I recall the DS still launched at $150, well above the GB line's typical price around $90)
Then again Nintendo did include the Metroid Prime Hunters demo card with early consoles, perhaps negating some cost savings from the extra CPU. :P
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Jorpho on April 11, 2014, 01:29:03 am
GBC on a DS would've required an extra CPU, adding a bit of cost and some complexity to the console.
But emulation of Game Boy games can be done in software – either with Goomba in GBA mode, or Lameboy in DS mode.  Granted, neither of those options are perfect, but then the Game Boy Pocket wasn't strictly compatible with original GB games either.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: MrBing on April 11, 2014, 05:14:53 pm
Nintendo has pushed the same titles for years. At the same time (with the exception of Zelda and Fire Emblem), their storytelling has been consistently behind the times. At times I wonder if people really like the games Nintendo is making, or if they just think they do because the series themselves are so old. Because with a few exceptions their games don't stack up well with the competition.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Jorpho on April 11, 2014, 11:15:10 pm
Super Mario Galaxy 2, at least, was the most fun I've had in a long time.

What exactly is "Storytelling" these days?  Sitting through a few hours of cutscenes?
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on April 12, 2014, 08:20:10 am
Storytelling is an insanely complex subject with no one right approach to it.

Like, there's the Deus Ex: Human Revolution approach, there's the Fallout New Vegas approach, there's the Final Fantasy 13 approach, there's the Portal 2 approach, there's the Borderlands 2 approach, etc etc etc etc etc.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KingMike on April 12, 2014, 12:22:06 pm
But emulation of Game Boy games can be done in software – either with Goomba in GBA mode, or Lameboy in DS mode.  Granted, neither of those options are perfect, but then the Game Boy Pocket wasn't strictly compatible with original GB games either.
Then Nintendo would have to write an emulator, which might require more effort than they wanted (especially if it was designed before they had Virtual Console in mind. Even then, they were skimping out on features that should've been simple like SGB colors/borders, BUTTON MAPPING, option to boot games in GB or GBC mode. They also left out Game Link support, though I hear the GL is actually harder to emulate than it sounds?).
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: What Defines A Monster? on April 12, 2014, 12:37:56 pm
Quote
"Then Nintendo would have to write an emulator"

Except of course that Nintendo has already had a functioning GB/GBC/Z80 emulator since at least as early as 1999. They wouldn't need to make an entirely new one- reworking it for the DS would be a simple matter. Even just using the Z80 portion of it would suffice, since the system contains everything needed EXCEPT a Z80.

I guess it's a matter of arguing whether Nintendo might think paying a coder for a weeks worth of recompilation work would be worth it.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: FAST6191 on April 12, 2014, 01:12:44 pm
I should also note the GB/GBC used 5V where the GBA and DS were 3.3v (the GBA has a switch inside the slot). Now the DS does have a 5V battery but going purely on cart support it would have also mandated 5V handling inside the DS which is extra aggro.

I guess they could have made their own flash cart or something at this point but that is probably getting silly.

Also I am not sure if this is what Jorpho meant but the colour conversion on the GBA were also not the best for the GB/GBC, http://nocash.emubase.de/pandocs.htm#lcdcolorpalettescgbonly .
Someone once stumbled upon a good example of this but I can not recall what it was, I think it was a shmup though.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: What Defines A Monster? on April 12, 2014, 01:20:31 pm
Or just, you know-

Not take out the five cent voltage switch.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Jorpho on April 13, 2014, 02:51:30 am
Also I am not sure if this is what Jorpho meant but the colour conversion on the GBA were also not the best for the GB/GBC
In regards to the Game Boy Pocket – the original, early black-and-white revision of the original Game Boy – Nintendo reportedly used a slightly different version of the Z80, which was enough to cause sound effects in certain obscure games to play wrongly.  I'm just saying that it seems an inability to be scrupulously faithful to the original hardware might not have played much of a part when they were considering backwards compatibility.

(The Game Boy Player for the Gamecube does contain actual GBA hardware, doesn't it?)
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on April 13, 2014, 09:24:20 am
Yes, it does. The GC is basically used as a boot loader and a video/audio output.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Pennywise on April 13, 2014, 01:54:36 pm
In regards to the Game Boy Pocket – the original, early black-and-white revision of the original Game Boy – Nintendo reportedly used a slightly different version of the Z80, which was enough to cause sound effects in certain obscure games to play wrongly.  I'm just saying that it seems an inability to be scrupulously faithful to the original hardware might not have played much of a part when they were considering backwards compatibility.

(The Game Boy Player for the Gamecube does contain actual GBA hardware, doesn't it?)

Not reportedly, the GB does use a modified Z80 asm which they changed to 100% pure Z80 for the GBC. IIRC, the NES contained a modified 6502 ASM set as well.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Mew seeker on April 19, 2014, 10:32:25 am
Here is another video that suggest another reason for the Wii U failure (http://youtu.be/MyXcr6sDRtw).
It might be wrong but it's an interesting theory. ^^
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KingMike on April 19, 2014, 11:47:36 am
Not reportedly, the GB does use a modified Z80 asm which they changed to 100% pure Z80 for the GBC. IIRC, the NES contained a modified 6502 ASM set as well.
They couldn't have switched the CPU (and with it, the instruction set) in the GBC, or they'd have broken backwards-compatibility.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Panzer88 on May 02, 2014, 03:08:29 pm
meanwhile, the Wii is still the best selling console of last generation, while the Wii U still has more sales than Xbox One. The Xbox One must be doomed to bankrupt all of microsoft forever..... yeah.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Bregalad on May 02, 2014, 04:44:10 pm
Quote
Not reportedly, the GB does use a modified Z80 asm which they changed to 100% pure Z80 for the GBC. IIRC, the NES contained a modified 6502 ASM set as well.
Only a single wire was suppressed from an original 6502. (to disable decimal mode, which is anyway mostly useless)
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Jorpho on May 03, 2014, 07:46:45 pm
while the Wii U still has more sales than Xbox One.
Holy cow, really?  I hadn't heard that one before.  That's pretty terrible.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on May 03, 2014, 07:54:01 pm
To be fair, the Xbone's been out for six months.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KaioShin on May 04, 2014, 02:36:33 am
meanwhile, the Wii is still the best selling console of last generation, while the Wii U still has more sales than Xbox One. The Xbox One must be doomed to bankrupt all of microsoft forever..... yeah.

The Wii U is now as old as the Dreamcast was in the US when it was cancelled by Sega. And at that point the DC sold much more than the Wii U has sold so far... That seems like a much better comparison considering the XBone was just released...
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Spooniest on May 04, 2014, 01:19:36 pm
Somewhat shocking that a Nintendo console could utterly flop like that. All it takes is one bad decision, I guess.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on May 04, 2014, 04:03:54 pm
Well, the gamecube apparently sold 21.74 million systems... So it's not impossible. The GC did make a profit, but it had cheaper hardware(I still don't get how the Wii U is being sold for a loss. My guess is Nintendo did not make very good manufacturing deals).
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: vincent_vincent on May 07, 2014, 09:40:55 am
Slow Wii U Sales Still A Thorn In Nintendo’s Side (http://"http://www.siliconera.com/2014/05/07/slow-wii-u-sales-still-thorn-nintendos-side/")
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: What Defines A Monster? on May 07, 2014, 09:53:21 am
I can't be the only one who saw this coming.

I mean, seriously.

Nintendo releases a console a decade out of date, with no GameCube backwards compatibility, barely any first party titles, almost no third party support (or even an attempt at it) and then tries to charge an exorbitant price for it?

And their strategy, when consumers aren't biting, is to punish 3DS owners by putting GBA games (which logically should be on a handheld and NOT on a console) onto the Wii U Virtual Console.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on May 07, 2014, 03:45:43 pm
I highly doubt GC backwards compatibility is a major part of why it's selling so bad. It has Wii backwards compatibility, which for most people is much more worthwhile.

The main issue is Nintendo tried to make a Wii 2. they tried to sell it based solely off of the controller again(Despite their PR statements saying otherwise), and that was not enough.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Spooniest on May 07, 2014, 05:03:31 pm
So what? Do they make another console now and try to cater to their fanbase some more? Is this the end of Nintendo? I highly doubt it. Nintendo hasn't been a major player in consoles for the last 30 years for nothing.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: KaioShin on May 07, 2014, 05:15:08 pm
So what? Do they make another console now and try to cater to their fanbase some more?

If only.

They'll do fitness accessoires to make some more money on the side. And maybe they'll throw another Mario game on the market every two years to shut up the fanboys.

What I don't understand is how Nintendo can make a loss that big at all. The Wii U is being sold at a loss or so I heard, but not that much. One or two games sold for the system and they are even again. Their games aren't 100 million budgets like GTA or CoD. Donkey Kong Country certainly didn't cost 100 million. Where do they lose all that money? What are they spending it on?
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: What Defines A Monster? on May 07, 2014, 08:33:56 pm
Quote
"which for most people is much more worthwhile."

Perhaps.

However-

It's a matter of bits and pieces, each one of which creates an incentive/disincentive to purchase the console. On my end, if I buy something that wants to replace the Wii, I want it to do EVERYTHING that my Wii does so I don't have to shove another unit into my gaming cabinet, and I have far more GameCube games than I do Wii games. Titles like Twin Snakes, Eternal Darkness, Second Sight, Smash Bros Melee, StarFox Assault, Crystal Chronicles,  REMake 0, ReMake 1, MegaMan AC, GC Twilight Princess, the Zelda AC and the original Wind Waker still look great to me and get regular play on my system.
By removing GameCube BC, it's a chip in a long list of cracks the Wii U possesses that create a disincentive for purchase.

Do I enjoy the few Wii-specific games I have? Of course. I own XenoBlade, Last Story, RE4: Wii Edition, Silent Hill Shattered Memories and the Prime Trilogy Collectors Edition.  But that small list of Wii titles pales in comparison to the full library of games existent in my gaming cabinet. The list of Wii U specific titles that are worth buying is so much smaller still, that to be perfectly honest buying the console would be in essence paying $300 for a less capable console than I have now.

You can say to yourself "Well, I don't use this, so it doesn't matter"- but if there's one example of someone who isn't buying the system for any particular reason, it stands to reason that there are many, many more.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Wakka66 on May 07, 2014, 09:57:34 pm
I just hope that X, Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem, and Hyrule Warriors will still happen.
Title: Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
Post by: Lilinda on May 08, 2014, 12:25:29 am
Perhaps.

However-

It's a matter of bits and pieces, each one of which creates an incentive/disincentive to purchase the console. On my end, if I buy something that wants to replace the Wii, I want it to do EVERYTHING that my Wii does so I don't have to shove another unit into my gaming cabinet, and I have far more GameCube games than I do Wii games. Titles like Twin Snakes, Eternal Darkness, Second Sight, Smash Bros Melee, StarFox Assault, Crystal Chronicles,  REMake 0, ReMake 1, MegaMan AC, GC Twilight Princess, the Zelda AC and the original Wind Waker still look great to me and get regular play on my system.
By removing GameCube BC, it's a chip in a long list of cracks the Wii U possesses that create a disincentive for purchase.

Do I enjoy the few Wii-specific games I have? Of course. I own XenoBlade, Last Story, RE4: Wii Edition, Silent Hill Shattered Memories and the Prime Trilogy Collectors Edition.  But that small list of Wii titles pales in comparison to the full library of games existent in my gaming cabinet. The list of Wii U specific titles that are worth buying is so much smaller still, that to be perfectly honest buying the console would be in essence paying $300 for a less capable console than I have now.

You can say to yourself "Well, I don't use this, so it doesn't matter"- but if there's one example of someone who isn't buying the system for any particular reason, it stands to reason that there are many, many more.

You highly overestimate the demand for GC games. It was a console that ultimately sold 20 million, and most people who want to play GC games have a GC or Wii. Compare this to the Wii, which had over 100 million sold. There's a far higher amount of people who would potentially want Wii BC compared to GC compatibility in a Wii U.

For the record, this is coming from someone who thinks the GC is a better console than the Wii.