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Romhacking => Script Help and Language Discussion => Topic started by: Bregalad on January 02, 2013, 05:45:45 pm

Title: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 02, 2013, 05:45:45 pm
I'm making a homebrew game for the NES (well I have been making it since, like what, 2006 ? oh well). My idea was to make it as believable as a true NES game as possible and I was going to release separate (J), (U) and (E) versions to make it look like as much as possible as actual Nintendo games. I might even do a FDS version of the (J) version I'm not decided yet.

The problem is that since I don't know a tiny bit of japanese, I will need some help for the (J) version. Most of the game's text (like STAGE, SCORE, etc....) will be kept in English anyways, but I think there is several things that should be translated in japanese because that's how it would have been in a Famicom game (correct me if I'm wrong).

First the weapon selection window which will look like this in english :

Code: [Select]
==== WEAPONS ====
| DRAGON SWORD  |
|               |
| FIRE SWORD    |
|               |
| WIND BLADE    |
|               |
| STEEL SABER   |
|               |
| ICE KATANA    |
=================

note : there is only 4 different weapons, the dragon sword upgrades into fire sword during the game.

The the following message will appear on the screen when you open chests :

Code: [Select]
LUCIA OPENED THE CHEST
note : Lucia is the main protagonist's name
Code: [Select]
GOT HERB!
LIFE RESTORED!

Code: [Select]
GOT HOLY WING!
LIFE FULLY RESTORED!

Code: [Select]
GOT POWER GEM!
LIFE INCREASED!
note : this means the life bar's getting longer (as opposed to the above message which means you are healed)

Code: [Select]
GOT MEAL!
ATTACK POWER INCREASED!

Code: [Select]
GOT HOLY WATER!
DEFENSE POWER INCREASED!

That's all. I said it would be short. Oh, and it will have to be displayed with 8x8 characters only, and as few as possible of them. So no kanjis or anything else particular unless they are readable in 8x8 characters. If multiple translations are possible, give me the one which minimize the amount of different kanas I'll have to use, since that will save memory for other graphics (it would have be what developers of a Famicom games would have done).
Also I don't care if the item's name translation is not very accurate (in fact it would be more believable as a true FC/NES if it is poorly translated), but I insist that the weapon's name are correctly translated.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Paul Jensen on January 02, 2013, 10:01:46 pm
If you want to put things into Japanese, you need to decide whether you want to translate the words or just transliterate them. I've put both options wherever possible.

Weapons screen:
WEAPONS =ぶき
DRAGON SWORD = りゅうのけん or ドラゴンソード
FIRE SWORD = ほのおのけん or ファイアソード
WIND BLADE = かぜのやいば or ウィンドブレード
STEEL SABER = はがねのサーベル or スチールサーベル
ICE KATANA = こおりのかたな or アイスカタナ

Text for opening (treasure) chests should look like this:
PLAYERは たからばこを あけた。

Text for finding an item should look like this:
ITEMを てに いれた。

Item names:
HERB = くすり or ハーブ
HOLY WING = せいなるつばさ or ホーリーウイング
POWER GEM = ちからのほうせき or パワージェム
MEAL = べんとう
HOLY WATER = せいすい or ホーリーウオーター

Stat names:
LIFE = たいりょく or just LIFE
ATTACK POWER = こうげきりょく
DEFENSE POWER = ぼうぎょりょく

Item effects:
LIFE RESTORED= たいりょくが すこし かいふく した。
LIFE FULLY RESTORED = たいりょくが かんぜんに かいふく した。
STAT INCREASED = STATが じょうしょう した。

HTH
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 02, 2013, 10:16:35 pm
There's only a few things I would change with PJ's stuff.

HERB in Japanese is 薬草. And for a stat to go up is usually "STAT が あがった"

The thing about life recovery actually says "life has recovered a tiny bit", you could take out the すこし to save space and it would still just say "life recovered".

~DS
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 03, 2013, 10:23:25 am
Thank you very much.

Quote
If you want to put things into Japanese, you need to decide whether you want to translate the words or just transliterate them. I've put both options wherever possible.
Well I don't know the difference. I'll probably pick the translation that will minimize the kanas that I'll have to store in CHR-ROM.

Also I forgot :

YOU FOUND [WEAPON] - should probably be [WEAPON]を てに いれた。 but I want to make sure.

And especially, the text saying something like :
"DRAGON SWORD got it's original power is restored and it became FIRE SWORD".
I haven't made it in english yet but I'll have to eventually.

Also finally a question which is not about the language but about how it's printed on the screen (since they'll have ideally to fit into the unused Latin letters - probably they will split a bit but hopefully not too much). I think it's common for games with 8x8 kanas to have the " and ° characters on a different line, but is it okay to have them on the same line, after the body of the associated kana ? It would just make less modifications to the code but it would be possible to have them on a different line too.

I just tried in Dragon Quest 1 (which is the font I use since it's stored right at the start of its CHR-ROM, and I belive all Famicom games have almost the same kana font anyways), I can't have a main character named ぶき I'd have to name him ひ"き I don't know how weird that looks for the japanese reader.

Quote
HERB in Japanese is 薬草.
If you can point me to any way I could write this with 8x8 characters I'm open but I think I'll stick with what Paul says. I'm also pretty sure it's standard for Famicom games to not use any kanjis, although apparently Ninja Gaiden use a few 8x8 kanjis. They are probably hard to read though.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Paul Jensen on January 03, 2013, 10:29:16 am
HERB in Japanese is 薬草. And for a stat to go up is usually "STAT が あがった"

I thought about using 薬草 (やくそう), but I thought it was only used in the Dragon Quest series. If it's a generic term, then by all means use it.

As far as what verb to use, there are three choices that I can think of:

1) 上がった (あがった), "went up"
2) 上昇した (じょうしょうした), "rose"
3) 増えた (ふえた), "increased"

These three phrases are basically interchangeable, so any of the them should be fine, but I think DS might be right about あがった being the most common.

Quote
The thing about life recovery actually says "life has recovered a tiny bit", you could take out the すこし to save space and it would still just say "life recovered".

True. I put in すこし to clarify the fact that the item doesn't fully restore your health. Plus, I've seen it used in other games. Although, I guess the item's effects would be pretty obvious once you saw that your health hadn't been fully restored after picking one up, so it's probably OK to leave すこし out.

HTH
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 03, 2013, 10:55:27 am
I just tried in Dragon Quest 1 (which is the font I use since it's stored right at the start of its CHR-ROM, and I belive all Famicom games have almost the same kana font anyways), I can't have a main character named ぶき I'd have to name him ひ"き I don't know how weird that looks for the japanese reader.

Having the dakuten just be quotation marks (in its own separate slot) is kinda ugly. It's like trying to read
Quote
Y O U  A R E  D R A G O N '  S  C H A M P I O N !
Best I could come up with, I'm practically falling asleep here

I suggest try to fit the entirety of kana in there if you can help it. (Oh, I reread your post snippet and realized that you saw that in Dragon Quest. It's still pretty bad and they've fixed that in recent games, but I haven't really played the old MSX/Famicom games to be able to tell you when they started fixing it).
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 03, 2013, 11:07:07 am
Now the question is : How to store the fact I have to put a " above a kana ? I can think of 2 ways of doing it :
Use the MSB : if set, this means a " is above a kana.
Use a " character as it and have a program that automatically move it above the previous letter (instead of having it IN FRONT of the previous letter).

Quote
True. I put in すこし to clarify the fact that the item doesn't fully restore your health. Plus, I've seen it used in other games. Although, I guess the item's effects would be pretty obvious once you saw that your health hadn't been fully restored after picking one up, so it's probably OK to leave すこし out.
If す, こ and し are all already used somewhere I'll use it otherwise I'll leave it. They are all present elsewhere, so I'll definitely be using it. By the way the balance is currently 42 characters which is not too bad.

Also if someone could translate what I said, it would be great :
Code: [Select]
DRAGON SWORD got its original power restored and became FIRE SWORD.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 03, 2013, 02:36:30 pm
Oops. Yeah, 薬草 is やくそう.

As far as how to get the dakuten and handakuten in there, the way I've always seen it done is they'd write it in the line above the kana. They'd write a check to see if the table entry being read had dakuten/handakuten or not, and then run a separate routine if it did which would write the appropriate symbol one line above the kana.

Go check out the text routine of FFIV. They do it there.

~DS
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 04, 2013, 06:15:53 am
Ok I looked at several games for the dakuten, and apprently while the majority of them use it above the text in the intra-lines, some games inline it as a " character, especially games with not too many text.
Namely, Rockman games, Kid Icarus, Castlevania II, Contra, and Battletoads inline the dakuten. I looked at Battletoads carefully because it's one of the rare NES games (if not the only one) that was developed in Europe and was later translated to japanese, which is interesting. It makes sense they didn't plan to have room for the dakuten in the original game, and had to deal with it when translating it.

In the case of my game it's weird, because in the weapon selection screen I'd have room for the dakuten between the lines, but when you equip the weapon, it's name is supposed to appear in the status bar, and here I will not have room for it because the line above is used for something else. Well so either I move the layout, either I inline the dakuten everywhere, or I do some code to inline it in the status bar, but place it in the interline on the menu screen.

And PLEASE someone translate this last sentence !!
Quote
DRAGON SWORD got its ancient power restored and became FIRE SWORD.
So I can get the total count of kana characters and begin my work.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: LostTemplar on January 04, 2013, 06:31:21 am
DRAGON SWORD got its ancient power restored and became FIRE SWORD.

ancient power:
ドラゴンソードは いにしえのちからがもどり ファイアソードになった!

original power:
ドラゴンソードは ほんらいのちからがもどり ファイアソードになった!

This is actually "the power returned". You could also say ちからがもどされ (power got returned) to imply that it's the player's accomplishment, but I don't think you have to be that verbose.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 04, 2013, 06:34:43 am
Oh thank you very very much !!

Oh and I plan to use the translation, not the transcription, so is it ok to say :

りゅうのけん いにしえのちからがもどり ほのおのけん になった !

or

りゅうのけん ほんらいのちからがもどり ほのおのけん になった !

instead ?
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 04, 2013, 08:28:32 am
That's fine. All you did was replace a couple of nouns, so it doesn't affect the meaning of the sentence.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: LostTemplar on January 04, 2013, 08:43:46 am
It's okay, but you should put the は (it's a grammatical particle): りゅうのけんは …
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 04, 2013, 09:33:31 am
... My prospects for JET aren't looking good. I missed that little detail.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 04, 2013, 03:08:52 pm
... My prospects for JET aren't looking good. I missed that little detail.
JET doesn't care how good your Japanese is. It helps on your application if you've TAKEN Japanese before, or have done anything regarding to Japanese, just because it shows interest in their country/culture/etc. But they don't care how good you are. In fact, they offer an over-the-mail Japanese class for people who want to get better (with a Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced level).

~DS
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 04, 2013, 03:26:52 pm
Oh, I did hear about that in the presentation. But the fact that they prefer it is still something that works against me... It's a bit competitive; they choose a small fraction of the total amount of applicants, which come from all over the world and the number increases all the time.

But well, I did get the Gilman Scholarship, so maybe I don't have terrible luck (and in that case, I'll start hoping you can get into JET when you apply)
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 04, 2013, 06:30:52 pm
Like this ?
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskill%20201301051017097.png)
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 04, 2013, 08:15:33 pm
Exquisitely perfect. Good job.

Well...

が and も are a bit close. Actually, a lot of other characters are bit close to each other... Hmm... Maybe another pixel seperation?
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 05, 2013, 04:37:15 am
OK I shifted the も one pixel to the right and edited my picture above. (since it is the only も of the game I think it's safe to do it this way).

When it comes to other letters it's NES so chars are 8x8 and I can't do anything. This is the standard font used in Dragon Quest and a lot of games, I could change it to another font. Or I could just scrap all the code I've written yesterdays for the interline dakuten and inline dakutens so the characters would be further away, but then it would look like there is a whitespace when there is a dakuten which is (probably) not nice to the eye.

EDIT - it would look like this :

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskill%20201301051051139.png)

Picture of the weapon selection menu :

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskill%20201301051136482.png)

When you open a chest :
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskill%20201301051157459.png)

PS : Is it important to make the distinction between small tsus (っ) and big tsus (つ) ? Currently I have to store both and I could save a char by using only one of them.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Ryusui on January 05, 2013, 06:39:47 am
PS : Is it important to make the distinction between small tsus (っ) and big tsus (つ) ? Currently I have to store both and I could save a char by using only one of them.

YES.

Spoiler:
Okay, let me make this post actually useful. >_>

The "small tsu" is the sokuon - the "repeated sound" symbol. It doubles the next consonant.

It's worth noting that the similarity between "tsu" and the sokuon is vital to the punnery in the Japanese names of the Pokemon Sudowoodo and Dunsparce. "Usokki" is "Usotsuki" ("liar," but the "ki" at the end can also mean "tree") with the "tsu" changed to a sokuon; similarly, Nokocchi is "tsuchinoko" (a Japanese cryptid) with its name reversed and the "tsu" changed to a sokuon.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Nagato on January 05, 2013, 08:12:14 am
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskill%20201301051136482.png)
There's a typo with the saber's name. It should be either さーべる (hiragana) or サーベル (katakana), not さーべル (mixed hiragana and katakana).

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskill%20201301051157459.png)
I haven't played many old RPGs like this in Japanese before so I might be wrong, but shouldn't the は be up on the character's name here? "ルチアは" instead of "ルチア は".
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 05, 2013, 09:44:00 am
OK I took note for the Saber's name.

For the space thing, I was confused from the start. Basically Paul said not to use space, but just below, DarknessSavior told something with spaces. I therefore thought I had to use space, and that Paul just omitted them accidentally. But this was just an hypothesis.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: LostTemplar on January 05, 2013, 09:53:04 am
Japanese usually doesn't use spaces, but that's only when most of the words are written with Kanjis - they act as a visual delimiter then. However, if your text is using only Kana, it is not uncommon to put some spaces in order to help the reader. Although there are no official rules of where to put these spaces, most of the times they are inserted after finished sentence fragments. Grammatical particles are "glued" to the word they belong to - that is the one directly before them - and thus there is never a space before them.

That means that you probably should set spaces to aid the reader (though you don't have to), but if you use them, there should be none between the character's name and the は. Same goes for ファイアソード and に:

ルチアは たからばこをあけた or ルチアは たからばこを あけた
りゅうのけんは ほんらいのちからがもどり ファイアソードになった or ファイアソードに なった

(or none at all)
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 05, 2013, 10:45:08 am
Wow, this sure sounds complex. There is not even official rules as where to place spaces ?! What a complex language.

Anyways everything should be fine now (I also made the box smaller because not all the space was used - it will be big in the english version though).

The weapon menu :
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskill_menu.png)
Opening a chest :
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskill_open.png)
When you get an item :
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskill_item.png)
Sword that gets upgraded with fire :
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskill_sword_upgrade.png)
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: STARWIN on January 05, 2013, 10:57:12 am
I wonder if NES games have larger boxes for the english translation? If not, you have an awesome opportunity of butchering your english translation based on the japanese text box size.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: LostTemplar on January 05, 2013, 10:57:44 am
Looks fine now.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 05, 2013, 12:44:06 pm
Quote
I wonder if NES games have larger boxes for the english translation? If not, you have an awesome opportunity of butchering your english translation based on the japanese text box size.
Depends on the game. Dragon Quest games had their boxes enlarged for the Dragon Warrior edition, however, Castlevania II had the same small square boxes as the japanese verison, and what you said happened.

In my game engine changing the size of the box is a matter of changing one or two lines of code. However some NES games might have more things hard-coded and it could have been hard for someone wto fix the size of the box if they are not in direct contact with the programmer (even if they have the source code).

Even though the japanese text is not much technically shorter the fact characters are packed makes it a lot less characters. Basically it's a tradeoff - you need more characters in the alphabet but then the message is shorter.

Quote
Looks fine now.
Thank you very much and thanks to everyone that helped me to do this "false japanese" version of the game. This might be a weird idea but this was very interesting and I learned some things about what makes changing the language in a game hard.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 05, 2013, 02:23:53 pm
You'd still want to make sure that saber is サーベル. The only time that Japanese games use hiragana instead of katakana for loan words is when they don't have a katakana font to begin with. You do, so you should use it.

~DS
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 05, 2013, 02:50:36 pm
OK - I inserted the SA character and wrote it in katakana.
That makes a total of 5 katakanas in the alphabet : SA, BE, LU, CHI and A - which I know I could remove if I REALLY need them for the rest of the game (but don't plan to).

Now I have in my CHR-ROM 34 hiraganas, 3 special-mini hiraganas, 5 katakanas, and 2 dakutens, and 9 latin letters, for a great total of 53 symbols, which is "only" 27 more than the full alphabet I had before. Sounds like I could introduce lower case letters in the english version, too (this wasn't planned originally).
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 05, 2013, 10:19:41 pm
I don't know how much help this will be, but note that hiragana and katakana he are both written へ. It's a small thing to note, but might be helpful. You don't allow the player to rename characters?
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 06, 2013, 04:04:38 am
Yes I of course noted this and use the same HE for both. (I noticed some games used a blod he for hiragana and a thin one for katakana, but Dragon Quest which is mostly hiragana-only uses a thin he).

I don't allow the player to rename the characters, because you know it's a simple and minimalistic game with only one hero. Like in Mega Man you have to play Mega Man and can't rename him, or in Zelda you have to play as Link and can't rename him, in Castlevania you have to play as Simon and can't rename him, etc....
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Paul Jensen on January 07, 2013, 04:44:52 am
Japanese usually doesn't use spaces, but that's only when most of the words are written with Kanjis - they act as a visual delimiter then. However, if your text is using only Kana, it is not uncommon to put some spaces in order to help the reader. Although there are no official rules of where to put these spaces, most of the times they are inserted after finished sentence fragments. Grammatical particles are "glued" to the word they belong to - that is the one directly before them - and thus there is never a space before them.

That means that you probably should set spaces to aid the reader (though you don't have to), but if you use them, there should be none between the character's name and the は. Same goes for ファイアソード and に:

ルチアは たからばこをあけた or ルチアは たからばこを あけた
りゅうのけんは ほんらいのちからがもどり ファイアソードになった or ファイアソードに なった

(or none at all)

This.

HTH
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Midna on January 07, 2013, 04:16:05 pm
Just want to say that, while ルチア is an acceptable translation for "Lucia", I probably would have gone with ルシア, which is closer to how the name is pronounced in English.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 07, 2013, 04:23:32 pm
That's true. チ is a hard "ch" sound. Luchia. シ is softer, closer to the "see" sound heard in Lucia (Loo-SEE-AH).

Do not trust machine translators. They try their best but they fail more often than not it comes to things like these, i.e. because Lucia contains a "c" instead of an "s", a machine would more than gladly put a "チ" in there because the common romanization is "chi" despite the name calling for an "s"-er sound, like シ (shi, pronounced like English she as in "She sells seashells").
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 07, 2013, 06:03:48 pm
Lucia is an italian name originally, and whille in french I'd be tempted to pronunce the "c" as a "s" ( /lysja/), in italian the C letter is pronounced something like "tch". I actually hesitated between the shi and the chi since I don't know how they are pronunced in japanese... I really don't know what to do with this one.

Also, I remember when I chose this name, I think I was 15 year old so this was 8 years ago before I even started to work on the game I had to design it. I thought most games only have boys as heroes and that this was boring so I would have a girl instead. And it really came as if it was a "revelation" this was the name I had to give to my heroine. I miss the old times when I had things popping in my head as soon as I needed them. Now that I'm a fully grown guy I have nowhere the imagination I used to have as a teenager. Oh well...
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 07, 2013, 07:48:36 pm
I miss the old times when I had things popping in my head as soon as I needed them. Now that I'm a fully grown guy I have nowhere the imagination I used to have as a teenager. Oh well...

I'm going through this right now and it's very frustrating. It's worse when you've got a combination of a sister who's much more artistically talented than you telling you your ideas suck (although recently I've realized we have different tastes regardless) and having a background where I'm torn between using "easy" tools and established "reputable" programming languages. It sucks. Good luck with this project.

(And if your aim is to have the hard "tch" sound, than keep the katakana [ルチア] as is. It's fine as it is now that you've told us that.)
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 08, 2013, 08:04:26 am
I hadn't planned this originally, but after all since this thread is still alive, why not...

Could someone tell me how you could put the title of the game, Dragon Skill, in kanjis, for the title screen ?
I know there is probably 189 different kanjis for Dragon but just the standard one which reads Ryu (in order to be compatible with the sword's name) will do fine.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 08, 2013, 08:56:29 am
竜特技 (りゅうとくぎ)(lit. Dragon Special Skill)
竜実技 (りゅうじつぎ)(lit. Dragon Practical Skill)
竜腕前 (りゅううでまえ)(lit. Dragon Ability
竜手際 (りゅうてぎわ)(lit. Dragon Skill)
ドラゴンスキル (Dragon Skill)
竜スキル (りゅうスキル)(lit. Dragon Skill

Jisho on "skill" (common words filter) (http://jisho.org/words?jap=&eng=skill&dict=edict&common=on)

Honestly, the best one would probably end up being ドラゴンスキル. The rest are just kinda funky. Although 竜特技 could still work. Or 竜手際 since there's kinda a play there with the kanji for hand being used and 際 can mean adventurous. 竜スキル is probably the worst, after 竜実技. :P

Edit: Fixed スキール to スキル
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: LostTemplar on January 08, 2013, 09:22:20 am
Just 竜技(りゅうぎ) would do. There's also the character 龍 you can substitute for 竜, they mean exactly the same and have the same readings.

By the way, "skill" is スキル in Japanese, no elongation.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 08, 2013, 09:34:23 am
I even seen it without elongation but I added it anyway because my brain is dumb. :/ It doesn't even only happen with スキル. I tend to elongate other words too just because (like an involuntary action). I really have to stop that habit. Thank you, LostTemplar!
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 08, 2013, 10:55:35 am
Thank you very much. I'm not sure I'll use them but if I feel bored perhaps I will.

Since it was about equally common for Famicom games to have their title in english and in kanji, both will make a "belivable" famicom game.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 08, 2013, 10:59:43 am
I honestly think that ドラゴンスキル could have been the name of an official Famicom game back in the day, since English is "cool" in Japan (specially the taboo words, heh). 竜技 does have a nice ring to it though and blows all of my suggestions out of the water. :'(
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 08, 2013, 11:43:56 am
In fact I think I'll stick to english name because, otherwise, because the original english logo "Dragon Skill" is much wider than taller, if I substitute it with 2 kanjis they'll look completely stretched horizontally and flattened vertically and this will be ugly.

Of course I could just change my code to display it differently, but I'm lazy and I wrote the code for the title screen 7 or 8 years ago so...
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 08, 2013, 12:00:58 pm
Or you can take a third option and always display the English title in big letters with the kanji in a subtitle under it. You don't need to change anything for either version and you've got both options in one!
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 08, 2013, 12:36:56 pm
OK, do you guys think this is too stretched ?

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskil_kanji_logo.png)
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 08, 2013, 12:40:58 pm
I think it kinda is stretched a bit too much... But maybe within context it can work.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 08, 2013, 03:37:59 pm
I just noted that it was quite rare to have famicom games with a title in english and translated japanese. Usuallly it's one of the following :

- Title entierely in japanese
- Title in japanese, subtitled in romaji (so that non-japanese speakers can understand ?) but in japanese language (not translated)
- Title entirely in english
- Title in english and a transcription in katakana (not a translation)

The only example I found where there was a title in japanese and in english is the Double Dragon trilogy. By the way they use the second dragon kanji, not the first. Also, all versions of the games (in all countries) still have the kanjis, likely because it makes it look cool and asian to western audiance.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 08, 2013, 03:41:23 pm
- Title in english and a transcription in katakana (not a translation)

I was recommending using this option.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 08, 2013, 03:49:20 pm
To each their own, but I think a transcription in katakana of english language is completely pointless since everyone can read english, even japanese people. Then I'd as well leave the title in english alone, which is what I planned in the first place.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 08, 2013, 04:04:00 pm
Oh ho. A lot of Japanese people can read English, but good luck having them understand what they're reading accurately.

And hey, I'm just telling you of a trend I would see! It's been either all katakana or English with katakana on top/bottom. But it's your project so in the end, do as you wish! ;)
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 08, 2013, 05:31:22 pm
While 竜技 does indeed read as "Dragon Skill" it doesn't sound very...natural Japanese to me. 竜の技(りゅうのわざ) still means essentially the same thing, but reads as a natural Japanese expression, whereas 竜技 is entirely made up gibberish simply taking two kanji and putting them together.

I however would also agree that having it in English with the name written in katakana below it is the best solution.

~DS
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 08, 2013, 05:35:30 pm
I did it with the second dragon kanji (the one which is used in double dragon) because it's more complex the fact it's stretched might be less apparent :

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskil_kanji_logo_2.png)

Quote
simply taking two kanji and putting them together
Video games names are often made by gluing 2 random words together ^^

For example does "Double Dragon" sounds like natural english to you ? I doubt...
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Garoth Moulinoski on January 08, 2013, 05:40:16 pm
竜技 is entirely made up gibberish simply taking two kanji and putting them together.

Because that hasn't shown up :P

I did it with the second dragon kanji (the one which is used in double dragon) because it's more complex the fact it's stretched might be less apparent :

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskil_kanji_logo_2.png)

Whoa. It does look better. That's pretty interesting!

Video games names are often made by gluing 2 random words together ^^

For example does "Double Dragon" sounds like natural english to you ? I doubt...

It's alliterative, so the nonsense isn't bothersome.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 09, 2013, 04:27:01 pm
I added the "no" as suggested (how could I miss that in the first place) and, great news, it makes the kanji less stretched :

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/drgskil_kanji_logo_3.png)

Quote
It's alliterative, so the nonsense isn't bothersome.
In fact most video games are like that, at first I clearly remember I was like WTF ? Every time I heard about a video game serie's name. After a while I god used to it and I'll probably never be shocked by a strange or ridiculous name.

I mean "Mega Man" sounds dumb as hell. "Final Fantasy" ? Don't get me started, it really does not sound like a title at all. "Dragon Quest" ? You mean it's not "Dragon's Quest" ? Don't even get me started on "Kingdom Hearts". etc, etc.... Yet all of these were extremely successful.

However because it is a standard to make up trademark names like this in english language (not only in video games, I think it's really everywhere, starting from kid's toys, etc...), it does not work with any other language.
In french you could never have a title called "Dragon Quête". Everyone would piss on it, really. It would have to be "La quête du dragon / des dragons" or something like this. So I can pretty much imagine it's the same in japanese, therefore my addition of the "no".
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: LostTemplar on January 09, 2013, 04:41:50 pm
I should've mentioned that 竜技 isn't any actual word. But don't forget that the Japanese love to come up with thought-up words, even in their own language. So I wouldn't say it's "wrong". But 龍の技 is just as good (and, as DS said, actually "correct" Japanese) and if the の makes it look prettier, even better...er. What I personally would do is write the title in kanji in the background and "Dragon Skill" slightly below it, but still mostly overlapping. But that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on January 09, 2013, 04:59:48 pm
Done.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on April 14, 2013, 04:46:45 am
Sorry for the bump, but I'd like to have some feedback on the readability for the font.

In the old screenshots I used the Squaresoft font. It works well, but there is an incoherency between the alphabet font which is bold and the kana font which is thin.

So I now use a modified font from Battletoads (J), because it is the only bold hiragana font I could find. However, because hiragana is quite more "complex" than latin letters, bold doesn't work quite as well and somewhat affects readability.

Example screenshots of the font in action :
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/fat_kana_test1.png)(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/fat_kana_test2.png)

I modified the o and ya characters, because in my opinion they were hard to read. I might have been wrong though.
Old(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/o_old.png)->New(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/o_new.png)
Old(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/ya_old.png)->New(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23465629/NES_junk/ya_new.png)
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Tiduas on April 14, 2013, 08:16:44 am
I've just read the whole topic and have to say that it's all very interesting to read about how such a small amount of text can become quite a hassle.

Anyway, I think the new font looks really nice, except for the に (sixth letter) which I had to stop and think for far more time than what I should have needed to do. Other than that, I don't see any problems with it.

And good luck with the project as well, I hope we'll see it released soon! ^^
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: DarknessSavior on April 14, 2013, 11:10:00 am
I've just read the whole topic and have to say that it's all very interesting to read about how such a small amount of text can become quite a hassle.

Anyway, I think the new font looks really nice, except for the に (sixth letter) which I had to stop and think for far more time than what I should have needed to do. Other than that, I don't see any problems with it.

And good luck with the project as well, I hope we'll see it released soon! ^^
I agree here.

I also think that the こ isn't the same height as the rest of the characters.

~DS
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on April 14, 2013, 04:39:57 pm
Ok, I'll look into tweaking the ni and ko chars.
Do you guys think my fix for the o and ya chars was justified ? Of course it might be hard to say without seeing it in a word but I'm too lazy to reverse the change and make screenshots...

I also wondered if the su char was very readable. I think it was a bit hard to read, but couldn't manage to fix it without looking even worse.
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: DarknessSavior on April 14, 2013, 05:42:41 pm
Ok, I'll look into tweaking the ni and ko chars.
Do you guys think my fix for the o and ya chars was justified ? Of course it might be hard to say without seeing it in a word but I'm too lazy to reverse the change and make screenshots...

I also wondered if the su char was very readable. I think it was a bit hard to read, but couldn't manage to fix it without looking even worse.
The "o" was definitely needed, but I think "ya" is going to be hard to read no matter what you do.

~DS
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Midna on April 16, 2013, 09:25:33 pm
I think they're both very readable in their new forms.

By the way, I wanted to lend a hand so I tried revamping the title screen graphic you posted:

(http://i.imgur.com/zpiryGB.png)
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Tiduas on April 17, 2013, 06:46:07 am
Midna: I must say it looks very Famicom-ish indeed, good job on that one!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Bregalad on April 17, 2013, 06:47:47 am
Wow !
It really does looks cool !
However, I already made a dragon picture that is on the below of the title screen, so it would be weird to have two different dragon pics on the title screen. So unless I made a completely title screen in japanese (with this dragon instead of the one on the english title screen), I couldn't use this one.

But it looks so cool I really want to use it so I don't know what to do...
Title: Re: Translate (very) small script to japanese
Post by: Mew seeker on May 24, 2013, 11:18:31 am
Maybe use it in the menus, credits or something? ^^