Romhacking.net

General Category => News Submissions => Topic started by: RHDNBot on June 19, 2012, 04:54:45 pm

Title: Site: Announcement: Credit List
Post by: RHDNBot on June 19, 2012, 04:54:45 pm
Update By: Nightcrawler

Today we're making an announcement about a new Credit List feature we deployed recently on the site. It has been several years in the making. It was originally an idea from Satsu on how to better facilitate proper crediting of people in our database. There were many technical hurdles to overcome at the time. Allowing multiple author selection was a good stop-gap solution over nothing, but it still fell very short.

Let's say Aeon Genesis just released a new translation. That's great, but just who was under that umbrella for this release? Who did the stellar job translating that script? Who did the programming? What about that guy who made that custom decompressor utility? There are many important people involved in our hacking projects that deserve formal community recognition. Simply cramming all those names in the author list is not an elegant solution at all.

A credit list is not a difficult concept, but it can be very difficult to try to shoehorn into a database with roots dating back many years, containing a haphazard mix of people and groups, and entries assigned in various different ways. How do you do this without having to reset all entries, or lose all of our existing valuable associations? It was not an easy question and it took a long time to implement a viable solution.

We finally came up with something that works after some additional input from Spinner 8. All existing data and associations are preserved, and we have added the ability to properly fix and credit any entries going forward. Both old and corrected entries will operate. It is unlikely that all old entries will ever be corrected, so it is imperative that both old and new work.

The current 'Author' field for hacks and translations will be used as the 'Released By' field in all entry and search pages. In the case of a group project, only the group name should go here. All people belonging to a group for that project shall go to the Credit List. In the case of an individual project, only the primary individual/s to be credited for the release belong. All others involved should be added to the new Credit List attached to the entry. Additional information can be found on the Credit List submission page, and you may see the following examples for reference:


Relevant Link: (http://www.romhacking.net)
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: Spinner 8 on June 19, 2012, 11:35:06 pm
Hurray! It's nice to see everybody get their due in a public place. It used to not matter *as much* back in the day when everybody was strictly divided up into translation groups.

I'm probably going to slowly go over a lot of the old translation projects and add credit lists in, unless someone else had plans. I put in hours and hours of work and research on (wraith)'s and my planned Whirlpool revival a couple years ago, and eventually I had a full list of credits for about 95% of what was out there (as of February). It seems like a waste not to put it all somewhere.

edit: actually, forget "slowly"... since it's all stored on Parodius, I should probably get to work on that soon.
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: KingMike on June 20, 2012, 01:43:40 am
Well, I just flooded the staff log with credits (in no particular order) for all my translations, at least to the best of my memory. ;D

I see I can't select myself. But I guess the purpose of the credits list isn't to list what the "releasing author" has done, but what the "contributing" authors have done?
Not sure if it is meant to credit individuals separate of group names? Just one example, I selected "Video Smash Excellent", even though ShihTzu is probably better known by his name rather than his site name?

I have at least one translation where a contributor preferred an "anonymous" name. Is it preferred to add that alternate ID, or to omit from the credits list?
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: DarknessSavior on June 20, 2012, 01:53:53 am
Does this feature mean that you can now search for work done by "x author" and see all of the work they've done, much like the people behind the patches? I ask because once this database is more complete, it would help with my translation portfolio a lot, as I do a lot of translations for people on the Script Help board, and don't wind up remembering all of them... >_>

~DS
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: LostTemplar on June 20, 2012, 06:22:45 am
That's pretty neat. It's nice to see that RHDN keeps evolving.
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: KaioShin on June 20, 2012, 07:09:49 am
It's great that the translators in the community will get a much needed spotlight from this. It sometimes tends to look like they're hiding in the shadows, while no project would be possible without them. And of course all the other people that are involved in a project will also get their due credit. Of course the readme files of the various projects (hopefully) list all of them, but how many people read and remember those? They deserve to be noticed right on the site.
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: Prof. 9 on June 20, 2012, 09:56:42 am
Can we submit Credits lists for translations or hacks that we didn't work on? Given some time, adding credits lists for all the translations should be very doable, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: Nightcrawler on June 20, 2012, 10:18:05 am
KingMike:
You can't select yourself because you are not in the community database (http://www.romhacking.net/community/) (Even if you were, you'd need to be marked as a person and not a group to show up for credit lists). You'd have to write yourself in for one list and get that approved. Then you'd be selectable for all subsequent credit submissions.

The credit list is intended to credit all individuals that contributed to the project (within the guidelines). So, you absolutely should add KingMike to all credit lists for projects released by 'KingMike's Translations'. The way the site is set up now for this is there are 'Releases' and there are 'Credit Contributions'. The site will differentiate between the two. See DarknessSavior's (http://www.romhacking.net/community/884/) profile. He has both releases and credit contributions.

After you've converted all your translations, you should then associate your forum profile with 'KingMike' the person and NOT 'KingMike's Translations' the group. I still need to modify forum profiles to reflect credit contributions, but that is what should be done. In the end, we have clear differentiation between KingMike's Translations the group, it's releases, the people involved (including yourself), and their contributions.

Somewhat related, you should then update your Utilities and Documents to be from KingMike the person and not KingMike's Translations. That way all the work you have done will be assigned to the person KingMike. I know it's a lot to take in, but it has to be done like this to preserve the last 10 years of associations, allow for proper corrections, and work for both in the likely interim period (Until the day comes where all entries were corrected. Might be months, years, or even never).

As for the 'anonymous' guy. Either credit him for who he is, or omit. Adding multiple additional aliases for anonymity defeats the purpose of the credit lists and our site associations.


DarknessSavior
Yes. Exactly as such. You'd still search the community database. See your (http://www.romhacking.net/community/884/) profile now. It will list your releases and credit contributions. Credited individuals will be on equal standing on the site with patch releasers.


Translators:

Under this new system, you should be in the credit lists. I know many of you had previously added yourself as a multiple author. For group releases, you should be removed and only the group name remains, and then add yourself to the credit list. In the event of an individual release, it's OK to have a release from two or more individuals when no group name exists, if you choose. You'd then be listed twice, once for the release, and once in the credit list for your contribution. I think we want to avoid having a release that is mixed from both people and groups, although the option is technical allowed if you had some good case for doing so.

I know it is a pain to potentially have to edit the translation entry and the credit list, but there's just no other way for old and new to all seamlessly continue working and maintain all associations. The reality is it is unlikely that all old entries will ever be corrected, and even if they are, it will take a long time. We need all things to work during that time and account for everything. :)
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: Recca on June 20, 2012, 01:34:19 pm
Awesome! This is a great way for keeping track and properly crediting all the people involved in a hacking/translation project. This feature is a nice addition to the site. :thumbsup:

By the way, one quick question. If a person took on multiple tasks in a project (such as hacking and translation or whatever else), should they be added twice (or how many else times) in the credits or only once for their most significant role?
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: Nightcrawler on June 20, 2012, 01:51:55 pm
Can we submit Credits lists for translations or hacks that we didn't work on? Given some time, adding credits lists for all the translations should be very doable, in my opinion.

Absolutely. :)

By the way, one quick question. If a person took on multiple tasks in a project (such as hacking and translation or whatever else), should they be added twice (or how many else times) in the credits or only once for their most significant role?

Good question. We don't have an official policy on this yet. I think I did approve one earlier that listed Chris Covell twice. Here is is (http://www.romhacking.net/translations/1062/). Once for graphics and once for text translation. However, perhaps it makes more sense to list only once per project? The issues is how do you combine two things like that in a single credit? What if you did everything yourself? Do you credit yourself in every category? That seems a bit silly.*shrug*

Any thoughts on this? We should figure out an official ruling on this before we get too many submissions.
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: DarknessSavior on June 20, 2012, 03:06:03 pm
This is a great development. :D

As far as multiple roles on one project goes, shouldn't it be something like "Chris Covel. Graphics, translation." I mean, no matter what way you do this, it has the potential for clutter. If someone does four things, it creates four entries on the table. If you do it my way, there's potential to break the table? But I doubt anyone would do more than maybe two or three things on a project.

~DS
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: Mauron on June 20, 2012, 03:10:41 pm
I agree with DS, with the specific note after the category. Chris Covell: Graphics (Title Screen), translation.
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: Nightcrawler on June 20, 2012, 03:26:32 pm
You're forgetting about the 'Type of contribution', which is selected via drop down. That's currently single selection only. We have a type of contribution, which is basically a category and then the more specific write-in, which some people may or may not use. Take a look at the submission form (you can use the [EDIT] link for that credit list) to see what we're talking about.
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: KaioShin on June 20, 2012, 03:44:21 pm
I think for the type of contribution only the most important category should be picked, with additional tasks being listed in the free text field. It's IMO the cleanest way. Hacking and Translation trump misc. tasks, if you are editing your own entries, pick freely what you feel is most important to you. The free text field will always clear up the specifics.

Having multiple categories selected or multiple entries for a single person just sounds like a mess.
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: DarknessSavior on June 20, 2012, 03:59:00 pm
I think for the type of contribution only the most important category should be picked, with additional tasks being listed in the free text field. It's IMO the cleanest way. Hacking and Translation trump misc. tasks, if you are editing your own entries, pick freely what you feel is most important to you. The free text field will always clear up the specifics.

Having multiple categories selected or multiple entries for a single person just sounds like a mess.
That still doesn't clear up the situations where someone does both Hacking and Translation. I guess we could have an option for both, though?

~DS
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: KingMike on June 20, 2012, 05:51:16 pm
Probably should, though I think we've only had a few people who can fit that description (at least for English translations). :)
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: Mauron on June 20, 2012, 06:37:53 pm
You're forgetting about the 'Type of contribution', which is selected via drop down. That's currently single selection only. We have a type of contribution, which is basically a category and then the more specific write-in, which some people may or may not use. Take a look at the submission form (you can use the [EDIT] link for that credit list) to see what we're talking about.

Depending on how that information is stored, you may still be able to get the display I suggested.
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: wildgoosespeeder on June 20, 2012, 08:58:49 pm
Great idea! One thing that should be added as a contribution type and that is "Other". Why? What if a contribution doesn't fit in any other category?
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: Pennywise on June 20, 2012, 10:45:12 pm
Whoops, seems I messed up BRPXQZME's name while adding the credits to one of my translations. Might want to delete the wrong one. Don't want to have faulty credits now do we!?
Title: Re: Site: Annoucement: Credit List
Post by: BRPXQZME on June 21, 2012, 03:16:11 am
I’m used to it. It takes misspelling my real name (which is not that hard to spell, just highly unusual) to annoy me.

Also, there are four n’s in announcement. :D
Title: Re: Site: Announcement: Credit List
Post by: Lashiec on June 21, 2012, 11:02:05 am
In projects done by two or more groups, either by cooperation or because one inherited the work of another, should we note who is part of which group?

Also, if a project was done entirely by one person, would it be necessary to list him again in the 'Credits' section?
Title: Re: Site: Announcement: Credit List
Post by: KingMike on June 21, 2012, 11:49:16 am
I'm guess that's where the "Original Translation", etc. options come in?
Title: Re: Site: Announcement: Credit List
Post by: Nightcrawler on June 21, 2012, 02:15:28 pm
Why 'Other' or 'Misc.' is not a good idea:

No 'other' or 'misc' was provided because the categories should cover all possible cases. It's a general category after-all. The specifics go in the additional field. Let me tell you why this is important. Ultimately, we may have a way to search or list say all translators, all hackers, all script editors, graphic artists etc.  in our community, all in organized lists. This will only work if it remains tightly organized. If you have something that potentially can't be categorized in the existing categories, we can add something appropriate.

Lashiec:

KingMike got it right. You'd use the 'Original XXXX' options to credit inherited work. If multiple groups released something, you could specify which group each person belongs to in the free text field if you'd like, but it wouldn't be required.

If a project was released by and done entirely by one person, I suppose it would not be absolutely necessary to credit, however by crediting it would be clearly indicated that the project was indeed a one person project. I'd probably lean to saying yes, the person should be added to the credits.

Multiple Tasks by Single Person:

I've been thinking about this and reading the comments here. I have a few points to make. First, it is actually typical to see names listed multiple times for different jobs in credits of any media (movies or game credits for example). Second, while feeding my inferiority complex to Moby Games, look at this (http://www.mobygames.com/game/xbox360/screwjumper/credits). Notice Ben Geisler for both programming and production. I think the issue here is because our projects are done by so few people, it just looks wasteful or out of place to list people multiple times.

So, if someone both translated and hacked a game, why NOT have them listed twice? Now, I do think there should be some guidelines. Theoretically, I could list myself for my projects for Hacking, Graphics, minor translations, music, and script editing. However, that would be ridiculous to list myself for 5 or 6 jobs regardless of how it were implemented. A general rule should probably be following Kaioshin's advice and choose the most important category and list minor specifics in the free text. However, if you really did two major jobs and really think you should be listed twice, then perhaps that should be allowed.

Maron/DS:

I don't think we can do what you describe with what we have. You can't append notes to the category, unless I misunderstand. Initially I thought of ditching the categories entirely and just having the free text field. However, by having the category organization, we can potentially do some cool things in the future such as those mentioned in the top of this post.
Title: Re: Site: Announcement: Credit List
Post by: Lashiec on June 21, 2012, 07:22:59 pm
KingMike got it right. You'd use the 'Original XXXX' options to credit inherited work. If multiple groups released something, you could specify which group each person belongs to in the free text field if you'd like, but it wouldn't be required.

Hm, I guess we can continue to use the multiple 'Author' field to credit all the involved groups. This way you can get all the information without cluttering the text fields for each member unless it's necessary. For those who are really interested in the minutiae, that's what the 'Readme' is for :)

Two more questions :P

What kind of tasks does 'Production' cover? Project coordination or something else?

Is 'Original Work' an umbrella term for anything not covered by 'Original Hacking' and 'Original Translation'?
Title: Re: Site: Announcement: Credit List
Post by: Nightcrawler on June 22, 2012, 09:20:39 am
What kind of tasks does 'Production' cover? Project coordination or something else?
Production covers many things. I asked people that use it frequently in their credits in this post (http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,14069.msg204308.html#msg204308) during development. In addition to what Recca and Taskforce mentioned, it might also include things like subtitle timings, characterization work, planning and coordination work, etc. Anything that contributes to the final product.

Quote
Is 'Original Work' an umbrella term for anything not covered by 'Original Hacking' and 'Original Translation'?
Yep.
Title: Re: Site: Announcement: Credit List
Post by: IlDucci on June 23, 2012, 12:56:17 pm
I support this new feature, and I'm updating my translations as well with the full credits list, but what happens when the credits lists goes over 10 people? My practical example: http://www.romhacking.net/translations/1662/ (http://www.romhacking.net/translations/1662/)

Quote
DUBBING PROJECT: - Translation, adjust and voice insertion: VGF/IlDucci. - Sound mixing: Snack_and_larry

CAST: NEKU SAKURABA: Germani DAISUKENOJO BITO “BEAT”: VGF/IlDucci RAIMU BITO “RHYME”: Gini-Gini SHIKI MISAKI: Kairi03 YOSHIYA “JOSHUA” KIRYU: Daisuke SANAE HANEKOMA: KJ360 SHO MINAMIMOTO: Xombie YODAI HIGASHIZAWA: Salvi_Toriyama KOKI KARIYA: W.C. MITSUKI KONISHI: Haido MEGUMI KITANIJI: Snack_and_larry UZUKI YASHIRO: LMR

ADDITIONAL VOICES: Rey Dedal, Charlie25, JuanmiKun, Gini-Gini, Salvi_Toriyama, Larxenne, Kairi

GAME TRANSLATION: - Project lead, graphics and text revision: VGF/IlDucci - Main tools: Barracuda, CUE, Serede - Hacking assistance: Yann (France), Mentz (Italy) - Extra graphic assitance: Wastor, Siman, Serede, Mewster - Extra text assistance: Auron, xulikotony - SPECIAL THANKS: LoveEmu, Kingcom, and the whole TWEWYTeam.

VERSION 1.0 CREDITS0 (2008): Original concept and project lead: Rigle Tools: macacoloko, Serede Translation: Rigle, macacoloko, meiou, Lamateporunyogur, Serede, VGF/IlDucci, Nisio, highfredo, kot7k, Dahk, Tyranitar 100, Darkneyra Graphic translation: Wastor, Rigle, Serede Website: Serede, Darkneyra

It's a mother load of names, I know, but I'm not leaving noone behind because of some limits.
Title: Re: Site: Announcement: Credit List
Post by: Nightcrawler on June 25, 2012, 11:24:28 am
You can use the new Option for 'Form Size' at the bottom of the form (Choose 'preview' to reflect the change). :) However, note that things like 'Special Thanks' aren't allowed per guidelines. Only direct credits for actual work should be considered for inclusion.
Title: Re: Site: Announcement: Credit List
Post by: IlDucci on June 25, 2012, 11:54:08 am
Understood, I'll try that.
Title: Re: Site: Announcement: Credit List
Post by: DvD on October 17, 2012, 02:31:44 am
It's been a while since I added any of my own projects, just mostly contributing to others.
I just noticed this new feature.  I think it is an awesome feature.  :thumbsup: I love clicking on people and seeing what that have done and who they have worked with.

Multiple Tasks by Single Person:

...I think the issue here is because our projects are done by so few people, it just looks wasteful or out of place to list people multiple times.

So, if someone both translated and hacked a game, why NOT have them listed twice? Now, I do think there should be some guidelines. Theoretically, I could list myself for my projects for Hacking, Graphics, minor translations, music, and script editing. However, that would be ridiculous to list myself for 5 or 6 jobs regardless of how it were implemented. A general rule should probably be following Kaioshin's advice and choose the most important category and list minor specifics in the free text. However, if you really did two major jobs and really think you should be listed twice, then perhaps that should be allowed.

Why 'Other' or 'Misc.' is not a good idea:

...Let me tell you why this is important. Ultimately, we may have a way to search or list say all translators, all hackers, all script editors, graphic artists etc.  in our community, all in organized lists. This will only work if it remains tightly organized...

I think the latter statement provides the answer to the question posed above it:  For database searches by task to work, a person who works on multiple tasks in a translation must be listed once for each task they contributed to.  Not entering all the tasks that a person filled throws away information that can't be automatically replaced in the future, whereas clutter can be dealt with automatically.

Clutter is not caused by the data entry, but rather how the data is displayed when a person works on multiple tasks.  To reduce clutter, by default, the system could display only the first task listed for each person.  To display all tasks, a button could be pressed to show all the tasks by all people.  Of course, adding this button or some other way of reducing the clutter automatically would be work for the staff.  But it doesn't have to be done now.

In the mean time, add all the information you can.  It may seem ridiculous to list yourself 5 or 6 times, but as long as the tasks listed are important tasks, it is all important information that can't be replaced at a later date.