Romhacking.net

Romhacking => Script Help and Language Discussion => Topic started by: SeekerOfPeace on November 10, 2010, 06:51:23 pm

Title: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 10, 2010, 06:51:23 pm
I thought I'd create a thread to ask questions regarding translation (to Japanese).

I was wondering how to best translate the following two sentences:

しかし君も傭兵ではないのか?

This being said, you’re also a mercenary aren’t you?

そのような脱走の監視役はたいてい正規軍の人間が当たるはずだ。

Such a watchdog of escapee is generally supposed to be taken charge by the regular force.

I'd like to know if you think it's accurate and if not why.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on November 10, 2010, 07:01:30 pm
"そのような" might be better put down as そんな.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 10, 2010, 07:31:37 pm
Thanks!

Actually, the Japanese translation is the original so if anything, I'd need to change the English translation :).

Basically, I'd like to know if my English translation is correct or not. If it's incorrect, I'd like to read your suggestions/explanations.



Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on November 10, 2010, 07:39:53 pm
Were the Japanese senteces written by a native Japanese speaker? They seem a little odd to me.

Anyway, here are English translations of the lines you gave.

しかし君も傭兵ではないのか?

This being said, you’re also a mercenary aren’t you?

"But aren't you a mercenary, too?"

Quote
そのような脱走の監視役はたいてい正規軍の人間が当たるはずだ。

Such a watchdog of escapee is generally supposed to be taken charge by the regular force.

"The grunts are supposed to handle that kind of watchdog work."

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 10, 2010, 07:44:34 pm
Yes, both of them were written by a Japanese (it's from Front Mission).

So, I got the first one right.

"The grunts are supposed to handle that kind of watchdog work."

I don't understand how you got to that conclusion, care to explain?

Nice translations anyway.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: RedComet on November 11, 2010, 01:04:12 am
そのような脱走の監視役はたいてい正規軍の人間が当たるはずだ。

"As for surveillance of escape, usually people in the regular army are expected to do that." Is a really literal translation of it, I think. Being on the look out for people escaping or trying to escape is usually what members of the regular army (i.e. not special forces) are supposed to do is what's being said.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 11, 2010, 08:17:55 am
Ah yes, that makes a lot of sense actually. Thanks.

November 11, 2010, 09:21:11 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I have another question:

パージは売ってやるから、しっかり国境を守れ、ということか。

I got this translation:

"We'll sell you the parts, so stay on your guard of the borders", that's what they mean, huh?

What's your call?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on November 12, 2010, 03:37:22 am
You might want to double-check your source. Is it パーツ ("parts") or パージ ("purge")?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on November 12, 2010, 03:49:16 am
Context! Context is everything! If パージ means something special in the source, it could change the meaning of the sentence entirely.

Though, if it is a mistake for パーツ like it seems to be, it would come out to something like “So what he means is, ‘I sell the parts, you watch the border.’” (with possible pronoun changes and adjustments for stylistic preference; I interpret it as a rhetorical question, so a flat statement sounds in tune with the attitude to me, but you could translate it as a question if you wanted to).
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 12, 2010, 12:42:07 pm
There was a typo in my last message, it should have been パーツ。I've done the necessary changes.

いや、君は彼の能カを知らない。

I disagree, you are unaware of his abilities.

報告の通りなら4機でも足りないはずだ。
(I'm having a hard time with this one...)

I know it's talking about 4 machines, a report... I don't quite understand the function of 通り to be honest, according to my dictionary it means:
報告 【ほうこく】: report; information

Enlighten me please?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on November 12, 2010, 01:57:48 pm
Are you familiar with the "keikaku doori!" meme spawned by Death Note? 計画 means "plan" (^_^;), and 通り means "following", "according to", etc. "Just as planned!" and "Exactly as planned!" are the common translations.

"If our intel is correct, even four units won't be enough."

(Or perhaps "...they're four units short". I'd need more context to figure this out.)
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 12, 2010, 02:12:54 pm
Ok, well here's the context (the way I've translated it):

Rain :
待って下さい司令!
Please wait commander!

りきなり4機は無茶だと思います。
I don’t think it’s reasonable to pitch him against 4 opponents!

今回は実戦です。
This time, it’s still a real battle.

もし直撃でもしたら。。。
If there were to be a direct hit…

Falcon:
いや、君は彼の能カを知らない。
I disagree, you are unaware of his ability.

報告の通りなら4機でも足りないはずだ。
...

That should give you a better idea I think. The hero is pretty much confronted by 4 mechas.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on November 12, 2010, 02:37:48 pm
Yeah.

"If what I've heard is correct, even four opponents won't be enough to stop him."
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 12, 2010, 03:40:57 pm
Great.

I have another question, more like a grammatical question.

WAPのマニュアルを読んでいるか?

In that sentence, the penultimate の serves what grammatical function?

I browsed through Tae Kim's guide and I found this:

Quote
The 「の」 particle attached at the end of the last clause of a sentence can also convey an explanatory tone to your sentence.For example, if someone asked you if you have time, you might respond, "The thing is I'm kind of busy right now."

Now there's a か there to indicate a question, but does the の there serves the function mentioned above?

So, it would be something like:

The thing is that, do I need to read a WAP manual?

Am I thinking along the right lines here?

But then the other character replies:

失礼しました。

つい、新人相手のつもりで。。。


She apologizes about something...

EDIT: Could someone move this to the language forum please? I'm posting at the wrong spot.


Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on November 12, 2010, 07:34:43 pm
WAPのマニュアルを読んでいるか?

In that sentence, the penultimate の serves what grammatical function?
It softens a pointed question (の as an end-sentence particle is somewhat feminine-sounding, but のか is generally used by men). The end result the way I see it, though (and this is just an opinion here), is that it makes the question pointed just by being there :laugh:

Now, depending on circumstance (such as who spoke it to whom), it could be someone’s normal way of asking a question and they mean nothing special by it (some anime characters overuse it as a personality trait), or it could mean that the one who said it isn’t necessarily trying to offend, or it could mean it’s a grisled vet saying this trying his hardest not to facepalm. The sentiment is something like “You are reading the WAP manual, right?” (the proper tense to use for translation might be different; it could just as easily mean “have read” or “do read”). Usually, the use of the のか at the end of the sentence puts the emphasis on the verb rather than other parts of the sentence, and this is no exception.

失礼しました。

つい、新人相手のつもりで。。。
There is no real way to tell what this means without knowing what’s going on. I mean, I could take a stab at what it probably means, but it could be very much incorrect. The reason is that the second sentence is incomplete. Without knowing what’s going on, it isn’t possible to reconstruct the sentence, translate it, then gut the appropriate parts to make it vague again.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 12, 2010, 07:45:22 pm
Thanks for the explanation, it does make more sense that way.

I've decided to go for something like this:

So, have you read the WAP manual yet?!

Sorry, I haven't... I'm still just a rookie, so...


I think it sounds about right and it makes sense in the context. It's the best I can come up with right now.

Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on November 12, 2010, 07:54:15 pm
"Manual". >_>
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on November 12, 2010, 11:07:09 pm
失礼しました。 つい、新人相手のつもりで。。。
Sorry, I haven't... I'm still just a rookie, so...

This should be:

I'm sorry. I mistook you for a new recruit...

The phrase つもり seems pretty simple, but it's actually one of those really "Japanese" phrases that don't always translate easily. I asked my wife about this (she's a native J-go speaker), and from what she told me, it seems that in this case the phrase つもり means more like "I thought" than "I intended". Literally, it would mean something like, "I mistakenly spoke to you thinking that I was speaking to a new recruit".

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 13, 2010, 11:28:08 am
Yeah, I think you're spot on, Paul (plus the fact that it comes from your wife doesn't hurt :thumbsup:).

About this:

A: Fireproof Attribute (耐炎熱属性)
Your Wanzer will receive less damage from fire based attacks.


B: Shock Resistant Attribute (耐衝撃属性)
Your Wanzer will receive less damage from weapons like shotguns.

C: Piercing Resistant Attribute(耐貫通属性)
Your Wanzer will receive less damage from weapons like machineguns and rifles.

I'm pretty sure about the general meaning of the translation but I'm trying to figure out a way to put write this a bit more elegantely.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on November 13, 2010, 01:12:05 pm
Fire Resistance, Shock Resistance and Piercing Resistance?

EDIT: Which Front Mission game are you translating, anyway? Surely these terms have appeared in one of the four titles that have been released in English?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on November 13, 2010, 10:33:09 pm
A: Fireproof Attribute (耐炎熱属性)
B: Shock Resistant Attribute (耐衝撃属性)
C: Piercing Resistant Attribute(耐貫通属性)

I'd probably go with Heat Resistance, Shock (or Impact) Resistance, and Pierce (or Bullet) Resistance.

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 14, 2010, 02:33:15 pm
Thanks to both of you, both good suggestions. I think I'll go with Paul for that one.

昨日ハフマンに友軍の下士官達が着任した。
Yesterday, in Huffman Island, some rookies joined our forces.

そこで、実戦経験の豊富な君に、
Since you have plenty of combat experience,

WAP戦での実戦の感触をレクチャーしてやってほしい。
I will need you give a lecture about the feel of combat in a Wanzer.

Once again, I'm looking for some input, suggestions and so on.

Note 1: about 下士官, I assumed that they were rookies although it's not necessarily the case.

Note 2: The やって confused me there, what does it stand for? Is it related to successfully doing something?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on November 14, 2010, 02:39:14 pm
It's the -te form of やる, "to do/give".
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on November 14, 2010, 03:25:14 pm
Note 1: about 下士官, I assumed that they were rookies although it's not necessarily the case.
下士官 means “non-commissioned officer” (NCO). You don’t know if they’re rookies, and the likelihood is that they aren’t, unless they’re ranked “Private” or whatever. Woe betide the butterbar who has not been taught the number of ways a senior NCO could end their career... the lieutenant whippersnapper straight from the Academy may outrank every single NCO there is, but he doesn’t have the decades of competent experience the Sergeant/PO does.

Fun fact: My old man is the only USAF officer known to go into the enlisted ranks and earn CMSgt. Due to the unique circumstances under which he got RIF’d in 1980, it’s not likely that anyone else will ever repeat the accomplishment (not that anyone would really want to).
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 14, 2010, 04:23:28 pm
Yeah, I know. Putting non-commissioned officer felt awkward. I'll use the term once and then use (N.C.O) afterwards. Thanks for the extra info, very insightful.

November 14, 2010, 06:32:09 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I have another question:
3機とも戦闘不能になった時点で

I often meet conjugated words which I'm not familiar with (especially in ひらがな form). Only the dictionary form is useful in search engines to find the meaning which is why I need to find the dictionary form of inflected verbs I don't know.

So, judging from the suffix った this word should be the perfective form of a regular verb.  Now only -う and -る verbs have this kind of perfective ending. So logically, the dictionary form should either be:
なう: no result
or
生る 【なる】: to bear fruit This should be the right answer only in the context it doesn't make much sense to me.

Am I along the right track here, is that a pragmatic methodology to figure out the non-conjugated form of verbs?







Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Tauwasser on November 14, 2010, 08:50:18 pm
You opted for the wrong なる. There are the following words to be found in a casual dictionary look-up:


This looks like a case of the first one.

cYa,

Tauwasser
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on November 14, 2010, 08:55:42 pm
昨日ハフマンに友軍の下士官達が着任した。
Yesterday, in Huffman Island, some rookies joined our forces.

Yesterday some NCOs arrived at their posts on Huffman (Island).

Quote
そこで、実戦経験の豊富な君に、
Since you have plenty of combat experience,

And so, since you have such a wealth of combat experience,

Quote
WAP戦での実戦の感触をレクチャーしてやってほしい。
I will need you give a lecture about the feel of combat in a Wanzer.

I want you to give (them) a lecture about what actual combat is like in a Wanzer.

Quote
Note 1: about 下士官, I assumed that they were rookies although it's not necessarily the case.

They're probably not rookies -- that would be 新入 or 新米.

Quote
Note 2: The やって confused me there, what does it stand for? Is it related to successfully doing something?

やる means a lot of things, but here it means "to do for the benefit of someone else". The speaker is asking the person he's speaking to to give a lecture to other people. The basic grammar is:

1) 私は (yのために) xを して やる。

This means, "I'll do x for the benefit of person y".

2) 私は 君に xを して ほしい。

This means, "I want you to do x".

When you combine (1) and (2), you get:

3) 私は 君に (yのために) xを して やって ほしい。

Which means, "I want you to do x for the benefit of y", and is the grammatical structure used in the line of dialogue from the game.

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on November 14, 2010, 09:30:32 pm
The なる you'll usually see is "to become". -た or -った (depending on the verb ending) indicates past tense.

So yeah, you worked out the right verb from the conjugation; you just got the wrong homonym of it (and the actual meaning of said conjugation). "Became".
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 14, 2010, 09:44:07 pm
Merci Paul, I'm glad I got the general meaning.

3機とも戦闘不能になった時点で

this is the rest of the sentence:
少尉達の負けだ。
Ok, here's my reasoning for this sentence:

At the time the retinue of three Wanzers is incapacipated, that will mean the loss of the sublieutenant.

時点 【じてん】: occasion; point in time
戦闘不能: incapacitated (combat+impossible)
なる 【成る; 為る】: to play a role; to consist of; to become; to attain; to be; to grow; to succeed; to result in; to get; to be promoted (shogi); to change into; to be exchanged for; to reach; to be complete; to be composed of; to prove to be
供 【とも】: companion; retinue; attendant; accompanying

Question1:

What is the function of で there? In Tae Kim's guide it says: It may help to think of 「で」 as meaning "by way of". This way, the same meaning will kind of translate into what the sentence means. The examples will then read: "Saw by way of movie theater", "Go home by way of bus", and "Ate lunch by way of restaurant."

The thing is I don't really see how it would work with 時点 here.

Could it refer to the context?

Question2:

What is the function of に there? There are so many functions for the に particle that I often find myself unsure as to how is meant to be used.
Are there any ways or tips to quickly figure out what is the usage of に in a sentence?

EDIT: thanks Ryusei.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on November 14, 2010, 09:57:59 pm
に generally indicates change. Change in location, change in direction, change in state. You shouldn't be thinking of it in terms of "what it means in English" and more in means of "how does it relate the surrounding words or phrases to each other".

空に向け - "Turn towards the sky."
星に行け - "Head for the stars."
神になれ - "Become a god."

I suppose the closest thing in English would be "to".
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on November 14, 2010, 11:26:40 pm
Merci Paul, I'm glad I got the general meaning.

No problem. Glad to help. It's good practice. :)

Quote
3機とも戦闘不能になった時点で
少尉達の負けだ。[/size]

Once all three machines have been disabled (for combat), the sublieutenant loses.

3機とも means 'all three machines'.
戦闘不能になる means 'become disabled for combat'.
~時点で means 'once~' or 'at the point in time in which~'.

Quote
Question1:

What is the function of で there? In Tae Kim's guide it says: It may help to think of 「で」 as meaning "by way of". This way, the same meaning will kind of translate into what the sentence means. The examples will then read: "Saw by way of movie theater", "Go home by way of bus", and "Ate lunch by way of restaurant."

The thing is I don't really see how it would work with 時点 here.

で serves a lot of functions. I don't think Tae Kim's definition covers all of them. The way I see it, で is best thought of as being used to mark phrases that indicate not only the means, but also the setting or circumstances for some other action or event. For example:

1) 箸 寿司を 食べた。 (はしで すしを たべた。)
'I ate sushi using chopsticks.'

2) 映画館 映画を 見た。 (えいがかんで えいがを みた。)
'I saw a movie at a movie theater.'

3) 彼は 承知の上で 悪いことを やった らしい。
'It seems he did it knowing it was wrong.'

In (1), chopsticks serve as the means for eating sushi. In (2), the movie theater is the setting for the action of watching the movie. In (3), 彼 did bad things with the setting being that he knew that they were bad.

Anyway, in the dialogue from the game, で marks 時点, which is a moment in time; that moment is the setting in which the event of the sublieutenant losing takes place.

Quote
Question2:

What is the function of に there? There are so many functions for the に particle that I often find myself unsure as to how is meant to be used.
Are there any ways or tips to quickly figure out what is the usage of に in a sentence?

EDIT: thanks Ryusei.

Ryusei said pretty much everything that needs to be said for に, but I'll just add that に contrasts with で in a very crucial way: で indicates a span; に indicates a point. Check out these two sentences, which sum up the core difference in usage between the two particles:

4) 一時 電車が ここに 着く。
'A train will arrive here at (i.e. the point at which it becomes) 1:00.'

5) 一時間 日本語を 勉強 する。
'I'll study Japanese for (i.e. within the span of) one hour.'

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on November 15, 2010, 08:36:19 am
Danke to both of you.

Ah well, I'm pleasantly surprised, seems like I got the general meaning once again (although the formulation could use some work but that'll come with practice I'm sure) ;D.

Just to check my understanding of に:

今後の配属にも影響する重要な演習だ。[/size]

So に indicates a point in time, which, in this case, is the future assignment 今後の配属. There's a も there as well, which usually means something like "also". But in this case I think it means all of the future assignments.

影響する: to influence or effect. Here it is followed by する which means that the verb is either being done now or in the future (imperfective form). So it should means something like "effects" or "will effect". Since it's talking about future assignments I'll go with will effect.

重要な: -な adjective modifying 演習。

So my translation would be:
Your futures assignments will be influenced by this essential exercise. 

Am I right?


 
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: RedComet on November 15, 2010, 11:24:30 am
"This (these) important practice(s) will influence assignments from here on, too."

Future assignments/missions will also be affected by the training being undertaken now is what's being said. Someone more experience will probably come by and fine tune this. I'm just translating it for practice and to double check my understanding. :P

EDIT: Also, I don't think you're understanding how subordinate clauses work.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on November 15, 2010, 07:51:38 pm
Danke to both of you.

No problem. :)

Quote
Just to check my understanding of に:

今後の配属にも影響する重要な演習だ。[/size]

So に indicates a point in time, which, in this case, is the future assignment 今後の配属.

Close. に doesn't necessarily indicate a point in time; it just indicates a point. The point in this case is 配属, which is the "target" of 影響's influence.

Quote
There's a も there as well, which usually means something like "also". But in this case I think it means all of the future assignments.

Right. It's also possible that not only will future assignments be influenced, but other things as well.

Quote
So my translation would be:
Your futures assignments will be influenced by this essential exercise. 

Am I right?

Yeah, you've basically got it. This sentence is actually one big relative clause that modifies the phrase 演習. You can see this if you slowly build up the sentence starting with 演習.

1) 演習だ。 -> It's an exercise.
2) 重要な 演習だ。 -> It's an important exercise.
3) 影響する 重要な 演習だ。 -> It's an important exercise that will influence (something).
4) 配属にも 影響する 重要な 演習だ。 -> It's an important exercise that will influence all assignments.
5) 今後の 配属にも 影響する 重要な 演習だ。 -> It's an important exercise that will influence all future assignments.

Even though it's a relative clause in Japanese (Japanese likes really long relative clauses for some reason), I think it sounds better as:

This important exercise will affect all (or your) future assignments.

which has no relative clause. :)

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on December 21, 2010, 11:02:24 am
すべてが。。。
砂に飲まれてしまった。。。

Quote
Also, I don't think you're understanding how subordinate clauses work.
Oh really? Why is that?

Thank you Paul, I’ve re-read  your message twice and it does explain things really well.
I’ve got a few more translations I’d like some criticism on. Please do nitpick as much as possible as I really want to become good at this.

Girl:
すべてが。。。
砂に飲まれてしまった。。。
Everything… everything has been engulfed by sand…

Boy:
まただ。。。
また世界を救えなかった。。。
It happened again…
We still couldn’t save this world…


それで何度目だろう?
I’m not sure about this one. It’s something about “how many times”… What is the function of だろう there? I’ve seen it quite often before.


Does that sound about right?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on December 21, 2010, 09:46:27 pm
Thank you Paul, I’ve re-read  your message twice and it does explain things really well.

No problem. I'm a trained linguist, but I hadn't written anything really linguistic-y in a while, so it was a good exercise.

Quote
Girl:
すべてが。。。
砂に飲まれてしまった。。。
Everything… everything has been engulfed by sand…

It's all...
...it's all been swallowed by sand...

("engulf" isn't used in conversation too much, so "swallow" is probably a better alternative.

Quote
Boy:
まただ。。。
また世界を救えなかった。。。
It happened again…
We still couldn’t save this world…


This one sounds OK, but it's hard to know for sure without a little more context.

Quote
それで何度目だろう?
I’m not sure about this one. It’s something about “how many times”… What is the function of だろう there? I’ve seen it quite often before.

How many times does that make now?

IMO, it's best to think of the phrase だろう as a "less certain" version of だ ('is'), kind of like "should be" in English. Speakers use it when expressing something that they're not totally certain about, like when wondering aloud (the case above). Here's another example:

1) なんで今こんなに暗いんだろう? 'Why is it so dark right now?' (said right before a sudden storm)

It's also used when stating that something is probably true.

2) (たぶん) そうだろう。 'That's probably true.'

It's also used as a "request" for a reply from a listener.

3) そういうの、するわけないだろう? 'There's no way I'd do that!'/'Do you really think I'd do that?'
4) それ、もう言ってるだろうが! 'But I already said that, didn't I?!"

There are a lot more, but hopefully this gives you a good idea of how だろう is used.

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on December 22, 2010, 09:47:57 am
Wonderful explanation, I do understand better now.

Just a quick question this time.

In the following sentences:
やり直そう
I want to repair/fix something (?)

あさ、やり直しましょう
Let's repair it in the morning (?)

What is the function of やり?I thought it could be an inflected form of やる but I doubt it.

According to the dictionary, it means ''spear''.

槍 【やり】: spear; lance (shogi)


But I honestly don't see what it would do in front of 直す, unless it is an expression. I know
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: i88gerbils on December 22, 2010, 11:05:34 am
Your intuition was correct. やり = やる and not 槍 in this case. Well, I guess you could make a pun with it by making a speaker more casual. But traditionally it would only be 槍 in the case of あさ、やりを直そう

Instead of repair I would say "try again" for やり直す.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on December 22, 2010, 12:02:17 pm
Great, thanks.

Alright, here's what I have so far what my understanding of it:


Girl:
すべてが。。。
砂に飲まれてしまった。。。
Everything… everything has been swallowed by sand…

Boy:
まただ。。。
また世界を救えなかった。。。
It happened again…
We still couldn’t save this world…


それで何度目だろう?
How many times does that make now?

あと何度、こうして
砂に消えるんだろう。。。
And still how many times will it disappear in the sand

姉さん。。。
Sister…
ボク、
もう度れたよ。。。
I... I want to try again...

Note: No idea what the れた stands for there. I assume the final よ is the particle to give more emphasis.

Girl:
そうね。。。
Yes...

でも。。。あきらめちゃだめ
わたしたちが、やらないと。。。
But... Must we really…
Note: I don't understand here. "We" and then が as in "but" I think. Even if I know that やらないと is the negative form of やる I still can't figure it out:

やる 【遣る】: to dispatch (a letter); to perform; to have (eat, drink, smoke); to send; to play (sports, game); to give (to inferiors, animals, etc.); to study; to kill; to despatch; to run or operate (a restaurant); to do; to row (a boat); to have sexual intercourse

I've seen in my dictionary やる (suru) which makes the most sense. Is it the other version of あげる?)


やらなければ、世界は。。。
Note: Same problem as above.

Boy:
えん。。。
Hmm…
そうだね。。。
ボクたちが、やらないと。。。
だけど、本当にできるのかな
この世界を救うなんて。。。
However, is it really possible to save this world…

Note: I'm working on this one (waiting for explanation about やる).
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: i88gerbils on December 22, 2010, 03:31:20 pm
There is a lot that is implied for each participant in the dialog. That's why there are so many ellipses, and this helps us as readers too.

わたしたちが This comma is more for dialog pausing, and the が gives us reference to the subject (or whatever). Since it's not necessary to always have a subject (the first sentence doesn't, although in English we need to put it there).
やらないと... There's an implied いけない that follows. As for やらない, you are correct, it is negative of やる (遣る) and not やる (to give [a gift to someone beneath your station]). Same 'do' for やらなければ but neg. conditional.

We know what to put in for やる (do, doing) because of 救う. What must the boy and girl take action on (must do)? Save the world.

Here's a different example for やる where you might use another word in English. If we had a third party observer of the boy & girl maybe they'd make the comment (at the end of the dialog when they have their resolve):

この子供達はやる気があるね.

Same やる, but in this case it's really kind of a noun with the 気 attached. Spirit + take action or in other words motivation, gusto, morale, etc...
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on December 22, 2010, 04:45:21 pm
姉さん。。。
Sister…
ボク、
もう度れたよ。。。
I... I want to try again...

Note: No idea what the れた stands for there. I assume the final よ is the particle to give more emphasis.
It means you need to check that kanji again. It probably says 疲れた
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on December 22, 2010, 05:09:41 pm
Ah yes, you're right, it's 疲れた。Well done.

So in this case:
もう疲れたよ。
I'm already so tired.

Quote
わたしたちが、 This comma is more for dialog pausing, and the が gives us reference to the subject (or whatever).
Yes, ok. I know が is sometimes a subject marker or but. I guess here it could only be a subject marker as there aren't two sentences to be combined.

Quote
やらないと... There's an implied いけない that follows. As for やらない, you are correct, it is negative of やる (遣る) and not やる (to give [a gift to someone beneath your station]). Same 'do' for やらなければ but neg. conditional.

Ah ok, so you mean this 遣る in the sense of "do".

やる 【遣る】: to dispatch (a letter); to perform; to have (eat, drink, smoke); to send; to play (sports, game); to give (to inferiors, animals, etc.); to study; to kill; to despatch; to run or operate (a restaurant); to do; to row (a boat); to have sexual intercourse


So when やる comes before a verb, it has the function of "do".
Question #1
I don't understand what the difference is however, between する and やる。Is it a case-by-case situation where certain verbs are used with する and other verbs are used with やる?

Unless you meant やる as an auxiliary verb which expresses the idea that s.o. does something undesirable when he/she knows his/her action will cause trouble?

Question #2:

Quote
We know what to put in for やる (do, doing) because of 救う.
What do you mean "we know what to put"? I don't follow you here.

Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on December 22, 2010, 11:32:35 pm
Question #2:

Quote
We know what to put in for やる (do, doing) because of 救う.
What do you mean "we know what to put"? I don't follow you here.
[/quote]When you use a word like “do”, an antecedent is necessary unless you’re just making horribad innuendo.

(I’m a little too lazy at the moment for Q#1, sorry... I’ll just say it isn’t hard, there’s just a lot of typing it takes to explain it sufficiently.)
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on December 23, 2010, 12:35:38 am
Some of these questions have already been addressed, but I'll jump in for fun.

やり直そう

あさ、やり直しましょう
Let's repair it in the morning (?)

The phrase やり直す means do/try something again. In general, ~直す means (try) ~ing (something) again. Another common one is 作り直す (try making something again).

So, やり直そう means Let's try (it) again, and あさ、やり直しましょう means Let's try (it) again in the morning.

Quote
姉さん。。。
Sister…
ボク、
もう度れたよ。。。
I... I want to try again...

Note: No idea what the れた stands for there. I assume the final よ is the particle to give more emphasis.

A few suggestions here. First, use the girl's name if possible; sister sounds unnatural in English.

Second, as BRPXQZME mentioned, the word is not 度れた, but 疲れた, so the boy is saying I'm so tired of all this. In other words, he's fed up with the current situation; he's expressing mental fatigue rather than physical fatigue.

Quote
Girl:
そうね。。。
Yes...

でも。。。あきらめちゃだめ
わたしたちが、やらないと。。。
But... Must we really…
Note: I don't understand here. "We" and then が as in "but" I think. Even if I know that やらないと is the negative form of やる I still can't figure it out:

Girl: Yeah... But we can't give up. If WE don't do this... (no one will)

Here the particle が puts special emphasis on the subject. In English we use intonation (e.g. the WE in capital letters) to indicate this kind of thing. Another example:

A: あたし、しようか?
B: いや、きみはしなくてもいいよ。オレがやるから。

A: Should I do it?
B: Nah, you don't have to. I'll do it.

Quote
I've seen in my dictionary やる (suru) which makes the most sense. Is it the other version of あげる?

Not in this case.

Quote
やらなければ、世界は。。。
Note: Same problem as above.

If we don't do this, the world will...

This is an example of ellipsis (i.e. things being left out of sentences). Happens all the time in Japanese.

Quote
Boy:
えん。。。
Hmm…
そうだね。。。
ボクたちが、やらないと。。。
だけど、本当にできるのかな
この世界を救うなんて。。。
However, is it really possible to save this world…

Boy:
Hmm...
I guess you're right...
If WE don't do it... (no one will)
But can we REALLY do it?
Can we REALLY save the ENTIRE world...?

Quote
Question #1
I don't understand what the difference is however, between する and やる。Is it a case-by-case situation where certain verbs are used with する and other verbs are used with やる?

Unless you meant やる as an auxiliary verb which expresses the idea that s.o. does something undesirable when he/she knows his/her action will cause trouble?

When it appears as a main verb, やる means the same as する. However, やる is more casual than する, and so やる (and often even する) should be avoided when speaking to one's superiors. The boy and girl here have a casual relationship, so it's "safe" to use やる. Conversely, the fact that they use やる indicates that their relationship is casual.

Quote
Question #2:

Quote
We know what to put in for やる (do, doing) because of 救う.
What do you mean "we know what to put"? I don't follow you here.

I think i88gerbils is trying to say that "we know やる means do because of the context". More importantly though, do is the "default" interpretation of main verb やる; in my experience, it's most commonly used with that meaning.

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on December 23, 2010, 08:15:50 am
AAAAhhhhhhhh! Ok, yeah. Now I get it. Thank you to all three of you.

Quote
A few suggestions here. First, use the girl's name if possible; sister sounds unnatural in English.
The girl's name is unknown (it's ???????). I too thought it was weird but since I don' t know the name of the girl, I thought it would have to do.

Quote
When it appears as a main verb, やる means the same as する. However, やる is more casual than する, and so やる (and often even する) should be avoided when speaking to one's superiors. The boy and girl here have a casual relationship, so it's "safe" to use やる. Conversely, the fact that they use やる indicates that their relationship is casual.
Quote
More importantly though, do is the "default" interpretation of main verb やる; in my experience, it's most commonly used with that meaning.

Yup, that's exactly what I wanted to know.

Another question, for the particle と, what does it usually mean when it comes at the end of a sentence? Like
やらない。。。
Do you always need the context or can you guess the meaning of と when it comes at the end of a sentence? In this case, I guess と is used to include the other person in the action. It can also be used to express an idea that someone said as well.

Same thing with が and か, both of which can mean "but"... I had the habit of thinking that if が came before a comma, it meant "but"... but clearly it isn't the case here. か is easier to figure out as it is mostly used at the end of a sentence and when it isn't, there's a good chance it will mean "but".

Is this always a context thing or are there ways, like leads to help you figure out the meaning of those particles?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: i88gerbils on December 23, 2010, 09:57:34 am
と as a particle means many things, and all of them can come at the end of a sentence.

と - conditionality. と usually follows direct verbs (すると, やらないと). There are several types of conditionality ~れば, ~たら.
と - and. Joins together two nouns.
と - adjectives. There are some adjectives that require it, but often dropped colloquially.
と (often as って) - Implied "と言う" (dialog) or "というか". This is probably the most difficult to get at times as と all alone. Easier to spot as って

が - but. It appears at the end of a phrase like けど. It does not necessarily need to connect two sentences or phrases together (implied nature of japanese, again).
が - subject emphasis. Follows a noun or nominal, but you can turn a phrase into a topic.

か - doesn't mean "but". references a question.
か - also can be used to string a list of phrases or nouns in a question. 分かるか分からないか?"Do you get it or don't you?"

Example of some trickery below that I thought up just now. Try translating these :thumbsup:

Situation: three people commenting on some explanation they got from somebody.
A: 説明くれたが、ちょっと失礼な.
B: この人ははっきりと言うのが嬉しいですが.
C: よそ者があまり好きじゃないというわけかな?


Edit: this is kind of enjoyable. I usually don't like these types of threads. I don't know what's with me. Maybe procrastination.  :P
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on December 24, 2010, 11:50:51 am
Well I certainly I enjoy it. This language is just so complex... it really is a challenge.

Quote
A: 説明くれたが、ちょっと失礼な.
B: この人ははっきりと言うのが嬉しいですが.
C: よそ者があまり好きじゃないというわけかな?

A: 説明くれたが、ちょっと失礼な.
From the context I would think that が serves as a subject marker. Something along the line of:
The explanations he gave us were not very polite.
説明:せつめい:explanations
失礼:しつれい:impoliteness

B: この人ははっきりと言うのが嬉しいですが.
I don't understand what the final が could stand for.
He's a person who's very happy and who says things very clearly.
Probably wrong here. Really confused by the final part: 嬉しいですが。

C: よそ者があまり好きじゃないというわけかな?
Am I to understand that you said that you don't like outsiders?

If I'm wrong, could I get hint about my mistakes as opposed to direct answers so I can figure things on my own (and thus learn more effectively) please?

Thank you for this exercise, it really is good practice.

Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on December 24, 2010, 12:25:11 pm
Well I certainly I enjoy it. This language is just so complex... it really is a challenge.

Quote
A: 説明くれたが、ちょっと失礼な.
B: この人ははっきりと言うのが嬉しいですが.
C: よそ者があまり好きじゃないというわけかな?

These are somewhat hard to comprehend very well out of context, but I'll try and help a little if I can.

A: He explained it (to me/us), but man, was he rude.
-な at the end of a sentence is sort of like ね, but more introspective speaking. I hope that makes sense. が is almost always implying a contrast between something positive and negative. He explained it (positive), but was rude (negative). Usually translated as "but" or "however".

B: That person likes to speak clearly.
- This one, I'm not 100% sure about. はっきり is "clearly" or "plainly". However, と言う can be two things. It can be that the person likes to speak clearly, or likes "clarity" (何々と言う means "the things known as... (何々)". I know it literally says that whatever makes this person happy, but in the context it sounds more natural to me to say that they like it.

C: I wonder that means (he/she) doesn't like outsiders much.
- かな at the end of the sentence is similar to な. It is like saying "I wonder if... (whatever preceeds it)". A typical example is 大丈夫かな, "I wonder if (it, them, they) are/is okay". あまり implies that there is -some- amount of whatever, in this case, 好き. If it were not at all, it would be 全然好きじゃない.

Again, I could be totally off with a bit, as I'm simply a Japanese student myself. But, I hope I helped.

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on December 26, 2010, 02:03:20 pm
I've continued to work on the translation:

百余年前にの滅亡をとげた帝国
The downfall of the empire happened more than 100 years ago
What does とげた mean in this sentence?

そこから始まった異変は
After that, a strange phenomenon disaster started to take place
大陸を砂の世界に変えていく
The continent and the whole word started to turn to sand
Not sure I understand why there's a を there and not a は or a が (instead of the を).
*
西からせまる砂漠化。。。
The desertification started from the west
残り少ない緑の地を求のて求めて
There were soon scarcely any green land left
大陸は激しい戦争に飲まれた
The continent was plunged into a violent war
Not too sure why there was a war. I mean, I can guess but it's really obvious from my translation.
Does that seem right?

EDIT: Yeah, I don't know where this "strange phenomenon" came from 0___0.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on December 26, 2010, 07:03:44 pm
I've continued to work on the translation:

百余年前にの滅亡をとげた帝国
The downfall of the empire happened more than 100 years ago
What does とげた mean in this sentence?

そこから始まった異変は
After that, a strange phenomenon started to take place
大陸を砂の世界に変えていく
The continent and the whole word started to turn to sand
Not sure I understand why there's a を there and not a は or a が (instead of the を).
*
西からせまる砂漠化。。。
The desertification started from the west
残り少ない緑の地を求のて
There were soon scarcely any green land left
大陸は激しい戦争に飲まれた
The continent was plunged into a violent war
Not too sure why there was a war. I mean, I can guess but it's really obvious from my translation.
Does that seem right?
とげた seems to be the past tense of 遂げる (to carry out, to achieve).

異変 is a disaster. Not a "strange phenomenon". And it's happening to the continent (read: it is the direct object in the sentence), thus, を. は/が would make it the subject, which in this case is the "disaster".

Are you sure it is "求のて"? That doesn't seem to match up with the kanji.

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on December 26, 2010, 07:28:39 pm
If she's transcribing it instead of using a dump, then yeah, I see where she might've read 求めて as 求のて. On that note, it really does explain right there why there was a war if you read the last two lines as a single sentence.

Quote
残り少ない緑の地を求のて大陸は激しい戦争に飲まれた
The continent plunged into a violent war for the last remaining pristine land.

Same thing here, with your confusion over を being used instead of は or が:

Quote
そこから始まった異変は大陸を砂の世界に変えていく
The disaster which began after that is turning the continent into a world of sand.

In full:

Quote
Over a century has passed since the fall of the Empire.

After the fall, the entire continent began to turn into a sand-covered wasteland.

The desert presses in from the west...

The continent has erupted into violent conflict over the last remaining arable land.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on December 26, 2010, 08:34:01 pm
Thanks to both of you.

Quote
If she's transcribing it instead of using a dump, then yeah, I see where she might've read 求めて as 求のて. On that note, it really does explain right there why there was a war if you read the last two lines as a single sentence.

Yes, I was too hasty and typed の instead of め. I've fixed this in my previous message (along with "disaster").

Quote
残り少ない緑の地を求めて大陸は[/color]激しい戦争に飲まれた

I see, my mistake was trying to translate both parts of the sentence separately. I really need to pay more attention to punctuation and consider sentences as a whole. Thanks so much for that, it's a real eye opener.

About this sentence:

そこから始まった異変は大陸を砂の世界に変えていく
I just realized something. I was always analyzing each sentence as a chunk instead of the sentence as a whole.

So, in other words:

*The disaster that happened after that is the subject.
*大陸 is the direct object of the verb 変えていく.
So the disaster that began after turned the continent to sand.

______________________________________________________________

大陸の東に位置するアリステルは
Alicetel is located on the East of the continent
Note: This is the topic of this sentence.

西の大国の侵略により
きびしい状況に立たされていた

Alicetel, located in the east of the continent, was in a dire situation because of the invasion of the western big power.


Note1: So the sentence really:
大陸の東に位置するアリステルは西の大国の侵略によりきびしい状況に立たされていたそして。。。
Alicetel, located in the east of the continent, was in a dire situation because of the invasion of the western big power.

Note2: what is the purpose of より there? It's usually used to compare two things. It doesn't seem to be the case here though. I'd like to understand its purpose in order to better understand this sentence. It's よりに right?
きびしい: 厳しい; 酷しい; 厳めしい 【きびしい; いかめしい】: austere; intense (cold); grave; solemn; stern; majestic; severe; rigid; strict; unsparing; relentless
侵略; 侵掠 【しんりゃく】: raid; invasion; aggression
I'd say it's saying that the East is making a stand against the agression from the country of the west.


今一人のアステル情報部員がある重大な任務を与えられようとしていた.
An important mission is about to be given to a man part of the spies of Alicetel.



Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on December 26, 2010, 10:51:28 pm
による and its conjugation により mean "as a result of". Think of より in this case as meaning "from", referring to cause and effect. Or as a verbal ">".

This > That

Depending on context, this could mean "this is better than that" or "this results in that".
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: 6Toushiro9 on December 29, 2010, 03:07:42 am
(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3683/62279053.png)
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9404/nbdynws.png)
 :huh: does anyone know what these mean?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on December 29, 2010, 03:22:45 am
なし あり
オートガード

The big text at the bottom says "Auto Guard". I can't provide a proper translation for the top part without more context - literally, they're "not" and "is" - but if they're connected to that "Auto Guard" text, I'd put them down as "Off" and "On".
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: 6Toushiro9 on December 29, 2010, 03:53:01 am
Thanks got it! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on December 29, 2010, 12:40:58 pm
グラソオルグの領土。。。
Gran Org’s territory…

帝国跡地に近いあのあたりは一番砂漠化がはげしい
The area around the location of the empire
The desertification is the most intense near there.


連中は死にものぐるいだ
Note: I don't understand the part in red.
Is it:
もの:person
ぐろい:disgusting
だ:です
Disgusting people?
緑の残る土地を奪うためにな
The green land which remains must come into our possession.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on December 29, 2010, 08:21:11 pm
グラソオルグの領土。。。
Gran Org’s territory…

帝国跡地に近いあのあたりは一番砂漠化がはげしい
The area around the location of the empire
The desertification is the most intense near there.


連中は死にものぐるいだ
Note: I don't understand the part in red.
Is it:
もの:person
ぐろい:disgusting
だ:です
Disgusting people?
緑の残る土地を奪うためにな
The green land which remains must come into our possession.

The mystery phrase is 物狂い. www.alc.co.jp translates 死に物狂い as "desperation".

Quote
The Dominion of Grand Org...

The desolation is at its most severe around the former site of the Empire.

The people hold on to their lives only through desperate effort...

...to seize whatever land remains unspoiled.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on December 30, 2010, 06:47:08 am
グラソオルグの領土。。。
Gran Org’s territory…

帝国跡地に近いあのあたりは一番砂漠化がはげしい
The area around the location of the empire
The desertification is the most intense near there.


連中は死にものぐるいだ
Note: I don't understand the part in red.
Is it:
もの:person
ぐろい:disgusting
だ:です
Disgusting people?
緑の残る土地を奪うためにな
The green land which remains must come into our possession.

The mystery phrase is 物狂い. www.alc.co.jp translates 死に物狂い as "desperation".

Quote
The Dominion of Grand Org...

The desolation is at its most severe around the former site of the Empire.

The people hold on to their lives only through desperate effort...

...to seize whatever land remains unspoiled.
I just want to point out that both JWPce and jisho.org translate 物狂い as "an insane person" or "insanity".

http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E7%89%A9%E7%8B%82%E3%81%84&eng=&dict=edict

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on December 30, 2010, 07:42:16 am
Indeed they do. But!

http://eow.alc.co.jp/%E6%AD%BB%E3%81%AB%E7%89%A9%E7%8B%82%E3%81%84/UTF-8/
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on December 30, 2010, 07:49:43 am
Indeed they do. But!

http://eow.alc.co.jp/%E6%AD%BB%E3%81%AB%E7%89%A9%E7%8B%82%E3%81%84/UTF-8/
Oops. Sorry. I misread. I just got home from a three day trip in Tokyo, and I'm exhausted. ^^;

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on December 30, 2010, 08:58:50 am
Thank you.

This one is slightly off topic but:

I notice you guys use Denshi Jisho or Space ALC (I use Jim Breen) for your dictionaries; are there offline equivalents?

I use Gozoku but it's not quite as robust as I would want it to be.

I've Googled Japanese Dictionary Software but all I found is Atlas (and it's a translation software which leaves much to be desired).

I'm under the impression that there isn't any great bilingual dictionary software available as I've looked around a lot.

Any suggestions?

Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on December 30, 2010, 02:54:17 pm
Try this.

http://www.physics.ucla.edu/~grosenth/jwpce.html

It has a built-in dictionary.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on December 30, 2010, 04:16:45 pm
Progressive Waei (published by Shōgakukan) has a cute little example sentence for the phrase:

Quote
彼は死にもの狂いで逃げた|He ran [for dear life / ⦅口⦆like hell].

The latter is probably a better way of expressing the connotation of 物(もの) in front of certain adjectives (though depending on the adjective, the もの prefix can mean “somehow” or it can mean “truly”).

I use the dictionary app that comes with OS X, but Yahoo! Japan has a dictionary interface (http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/) that lets you choose between the popular contemporary Japanese dictionaries. Don’t let the fact that the interface is in Japanese daunt you; it’s just a dictionary lookup and the autosuggest is pretty helpful when you aren’t sure whether the entry will involve kana or kanji, and the dictionaries it uses are pretty good.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: 6Toushiro9 on December 30, 2010, 10:41:37 pm
Can someone translate this (http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4377/zxcvzcv.png)
I know its missing some parts but is it still readable?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on December 30, 2010, 11:02:56 pm
Why don't you learn katakana and read it yourself? Katakana is simple stuff - they all render into English words, anyway - and besides, you're hijacking someone else's topic.

The symbol at the end is almost missing entirely, but if I were to hazard a guess, I'd say the entire thing is フレームバースト - "Flame Burst".
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on December 30, 2010, 11:11:50 pm
Why don't you learn katakana and read it yourself? Katakana is simple stuff - they all render into English words, anyway
Not necessarily. Most katakana is English words. But you're not taking into account 和製英語 or any of the other languages katakana can be (most often French/German, from what I've seen).

But yes, katakana is usually very easy. And quit topic hijacking. D:

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on December 30, 2010, 11:48:02 pm
I know that. I'm just giving the guy the easy answer.

"Katakana renders into English words" means he can be lazy and just assume that if he runs into some horrible garglemesh of syllables, it'll resolve itself into a nice, simple English word once he's done pruning vowels.

"...except for some cases where it's used as emphasis" means he'll freak out and decide that even learning katakana is too difficult for him 'cause he'll "never" be able to tell the difference, and then we're back to giving him fish for the rest of his life.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: RedComet on December 31, 2010, 01:40:04 am
"...except for some cases where it's used as emphasis" means he'll freak out and decide that even learning katakana is too difficult for him 'cause he'll "never" be able to tell the difference, and then we're back to giving him fish for the rest of his life.

And RHDN is neither your mom nor your girlfriend!
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: 6Toushiro9 on December 31, 2010, 04:13:16 am
Why don't you learn katakana and read it yourself? Katakana is simple stuff - they all render into English words, anyway - and besides, you're hijacking someone else's topic.

The symbol at the end is almost missing entirely, but if I were to hazard a guess, I'd say the entire thing is フレームバースト - "Flame Burst".
OK, and thanks
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on December 31, 2010, 08:01:55 am
"...except for some cases where it's used as emphasis" means he'll freak out and decide that even learning katakana is too difficult for him 'cause he'll "never" be able to tell the difference, and then we're back to giving him fish for the rest of his life.

And RHDN is neither your mom nor your girlfriend!
Except you, RC. You're both. :P

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on December 31, 2010, 10:58:33 am
ただでさえ奴らは、我が情報をつぶしたがっている.
Even in the best circumstances, they want to destroy our information.


In the sentence above, what is the function of つぶ?I got grain from my dictionaries but I doubt it makes sense here.

粒 【つぶ】: grain

この状況でやれる部下情報部の中でお前をおいて他にない

状況; 情況 【じょうきょう】: situation; circumstances; state of affairs (around you)
部下 【ぶか】: subordinate person
情報部 【じょうほうぶ】: intelligence department; information bureau
御前; お前 【おまえ】: my darling; presence (of a high personage); you (sing); old fellow; my dear
他 【た】: other (esp. people and abstract matters)

The subordinates of this situation…
What does やれる stand for? I couldn’t find it in my dictionary.



Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on December 31, 2010, 11:23:12 am
I notice you guys use Denshi Jisho or Space ALC (I use Jim Breen) for your dictionaries; are there offline equivalents?

These days I mostly use the Casio Ex-word versions Progressive, 広辞苑 (こうじえん), and 明鏡 (めいきょう). Progressive is especially great because it has lots of example sentences that cover a wide variety of usage, but the drawback is that it has fewer actual entries. I usually use 広辞苑 for obscure terms and idioms, or when I want to know the etymology of a word or phrase. 明鏡 is good all around, but I only use it if the explanation in 広辞苑 is too hard to understand.

I used to use Jim Breen's WWWJDIC a lot for single entries, but lately I only use the "Translate Words" feature.

I've also heard that Kenkyuusha makes a good set of dictionaries, but I've never owned one.

Happy New Year, by the way. :)

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on December 31, 2010, 03:31:15 pm
ただでさえ奴らは、我が情報をつぶしたがっている.
Even in the best circumstances, they want to destroy our information.


In the sentence above, what is the function of つぶ?I got grain from my dictionaries but I doubt it makes sense here.

粒 【つぶ】: grain

You're breaking up the sentence wrong. It's not つぶしたがっている, it's つぶしたがっている. つぶした (潰した) is the past tense of つぶす (潰す).

Quote
Already, they're working to sabotage our intelligence.

Quote
この状況でやれる部下情報部の中でお前をおいて他にない

状況; 情況 【じょうきょう】: situation; circumstances; state of affairs (around you)
部下 【ぶか】: subordinate person
情報部 【じょうほうぶ】: intelligence department; information bureau
御前; お前 【おまえ】: my darling; presence (of a high personage); you (sing); old fellow; my dear
他 【た】: other (esp. people and abstract matters)

The subordinates of this situation…
What does やれる stand for? I couldn’t find it in my dictionary.


Of course you couldn't. Like above, it's a conjugation of a verb, やる. Space ALC helped with おいて他にない (http://eow.alc.co.jp/%E3%81%8A%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6%E4%BB%96%E3%81%AB%E3%81%AA%E3%81%84/UTF-8/).

Quote
Out of everyone having to work under these circumstances, you in the Intelligence Department have the hardest time of it.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on December 31, 2010, 06:32:24 pm
Happy New Year, by the way. :)

HTH
You people and your living in the future :<

You're breaking up the sentence wrong. It's not つぶしたがっている, it's つぶしたがっている. つぶした (潰した) is the past tense of つぶす (潰す).
It’s actually つぶし+たがっている (eager to destroy).
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on December 31, 2010, 11:06:12 pm
Happy new year Paul and everyone else!

Quote
Of course you couldn't. Like above, it's a conjugation of a verb, やる.

I thought of the やる later on but came back after you replied.

Let’s see if I can understand this right.
やれる is a conjugation of the verb やる (to do). It is part of the first group (it’s not irregular and doesn’t end with either –iru or –eru unless it’s an exception).
So やるis part of the Godan verbs.
The suffix here is -れる

According to my grammar book, it is an ending which indicates potential: able to or can.
Now I don't really see where this fits in with your translation:
Quote
Out of everyone having to work under these circumstances, you in the Intelligence Department have the hardest time of it.
I don't see where a possibility of doing something fits in this translation. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything but it's just not obvious to me. Is it "having to work"?

About 潰す (to smash, to waste), is there any grammatical reason why it's not written in Kanji?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on December 31, 2010, 11:31:58 pm
I don't see where a possibility of doing something fits in this translation. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything but it's just not obvious to me. Is it "having to work"?

About 潰す (to smash, to waste), is there any grammatical reason why it's not written in Kanji?

Yes, I rendered it as "having to work" - it's not literal, but it sounds more natural. And no, there's no hard-and-fast rule why some words might be written with kanji and others not.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 01, 2011, 12:43:13 am
Happy new year Paul and everyone else!

Quote
Of course you couldn't. Like above, it's a conjugation of a verb, やる.

I thought of the やる later on but came back after you replied.

Let’s see if I can understand this right.
やれる is a conjugation of the verb やる (to do). It is part of the first group (it’s not irregular and doesn’t end with either –iru or –eru unless it’s an exception).
So やるis part of the Godan verbs.
The suffix here is -れる

According to my grammar book, it is an ending which indicates potential: able to or can.
Now I don't really see where this fits in with your translation:
Quote
Out of everyone having to work under these circumstances, you in the Intelligence Department have the hardest time of it.
I don't see where a possibility of doing something fits in this translation. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything but it's just not obvious to me. Is it "having to work"?
It’s a medium-tough sentence. You picked a tough project :P

[1] この状況で…
In this/these situation(s),
[2] やれる部下は…
the capable one is [the (subject is) subordinate one who can do (something)]
[4] 〜をおいて他にない
none other than ______ [lit. other than (the direct object), nobody/nothing]
[3] 情報部の中でお前…
you out of the whole intelligence department. [lit. in the intelligence department, you]

Put it all together, phrase it more naturally, and it could come out something like “There is no one in Intel who does this better than you.”

This is not necessarily the meaning if the context is different. やれる is sometimes a reading of 破れる, which would certainly be different.

About 潰す (to smash, to waste), is there any grammatical reason why it's not written in Kanji?
It’s more normal not to, at least in normal prose. There is no rhyme or reason to this; it’s just best to go with the flow. One reason I like the Progressive dictionary is that its example sentences tend to reflect common practice pretty well. Of course, so does a Google search but whatev.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on January 01, 2011, 01:42:26 am
Yeah...looks like I was completely freaking wrong. Oh, well. At least I learned how to do it right next time. :3
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 01, 2011, 02:05:16 am
It took me a while to look up an unambiguous explanation of を置いて他にない (note the timestamp difference? not all of that was video games ;) ), but I was forgetting to use all the tricks in my bag of tools, one of which is to search for rōmaji (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22oite+hoka+ni%22) (this often has the added benefit of ensuring an explanation in English or translation into English, but sometimes it turns up nothing; sometimes you have to make it less specific, too). I blame this godawful headache I’ve been having.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 01, 2011, 11:56:05 am
Quote
Yeah...looks like I was completely freaking wrong. Oh, well. At least I learned how to do it right next time. :3

Well, we learn more from our mistakes anyway (which is to say I'm learning a lot lately), I'm glad you're also getting something out of this.

@BRPXQZME (that's a really hard username to remember):
Yes, I'm starting to realize it's a pretty hard game to translate.

二人とも戦えるのか?何が得意なんだ?
Have both of you been in a battle before? What are your strong points?

まさか。。。死んでいろのか!?
I could have never killed them!

What is the purpose of のか in a sentence? It's a compound of の and か but I'm not sure I understand what it tells me about a sentence. I can't find anything about this in my grammar book.



Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 01, 2011, 07:51:28 pm
二人とも戦えるのか?何が得意なんだ?
Can both of you fight? What are your specialties?

まさか。。。死んでいるのか!?
It can't be...are they dead!?

That's how I'd translate those two, but I'm not sure of the context. Also, I'm fairly sure you made a typo (死んでいる versus 死んでいろ).

のか is a short-form (informal), masculine way of using んですか. If you're not familiar with that grammar point, it basically is asking for more detailed information.

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on January 01, 2011, 11:13:18 pm
二人とも戦えるのか?何が得意なんだ?
Have both of you been in a battle before? What are your strong points?

まさか。。。死んでいるのか!?
I could have never killed them!

What is the purpose of のか in a sentence? It's a compound of の and か but I'm not sure I understand what it tells me about a sentence. I can't find anything about this in my grammar book.

DS explained this pretty well, but here's a bit more on ~のだ・~のか:

The phrase の (which is different from the possessive particle の) is a pretty nebulous phrase with a lot of meanings. Basically, it serves as a "stand in" for a number of other phrases, like わけ (reason), こと (event/situation), and もの (thing). Syntactically, it's a nominalizer, which means that it turns whatever comes before it into a noun phrase. It also often shows up as just ん.

Pragmatically, の is used when a speaker is making an assumption about something. For example:

1) 二人とも戦えるか?

In the sentence above, the presence of の indicates that the speaker is pretty sure that the listeners know how to fight, but he wants to make absolutely sure. The closest rendering in English would be:

2) (So the situation is that) the two of you know how to fight?

which sounds better as:

2') So, the two of you know how to fight, do you?

The next sentence is very similar:

3) 何が得意なだ?

The speaker assumes that the listeners have some sort of specialty, but he doesn't know what it is. The listeners haven't mentioned that they have a specialty, so the speaker uses (3). If they had  mentioned that they had a specially, he could say:

3') 得意なは (何か)?

Both of these mean:

4) So, what is it that you're good at?

which sounds better as:

4') So, what can you do?

The next sentence is similar to (2):

5) まさか。。。 死んでいるか。

The speaker in (5) isn't making an assumption, but a speculation. This could be rendered as:

6) The explanation couldn't possibly be... that they're dead, could it?

Or possibly:

7) You don't mean... that they're dead?!

I hope this all makes sense. の is a tricky beast.

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on January 01, 2011, 11:34:50 pm
Quote
You two can fight, right? What do you bring to the party?

No way...they're not dead, are they?

Bah...my skills are more in writing dialogue than straight-up translation, anyway. ^_^;
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 02, 2011, 01:37:12 am
@BRPXQZME (that's a really hard username to remember):
I don’t see why. I remember it every day! :D
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 03, 2011, 01:26:06 pm
Yeah, haha :).

Nice explanation Paul, thank you. I'll put in to use next time I encounter のか。

I have another question.

What are your tips for telling certain カタカナ apart? I have no problem with the ひらがな but certain Katakana are sometimes hard to tell apart for me.

Here's a good example:

(http://img37.picoodle.com/i513/freemind/w05u_e1a_u5vq6.png)

ポーンピアス: ???
シーリング: Shadow Seed Ring

I can tell that it's a ン there because of "ring" but otherwise I often have a hard time guessing.

To quote Tae Kim:
Quote
The four characters 「シ」、「ン」、「ツ」、and 「ソ」 are fiendishly similar to each other.

Could you share quick tip to easily identify those Kana at a glance? I know that the ending of certain lines is broader but it's hard to tell on the computer. I'm looking for something really simple and easy to remember.

EDIT: It's Radiant Historia by Atlus.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on January 03, 2011, 01:54:05 pm
ン ("n") and ソ ("so") have one stroke, シ ("shi") and ツ ("tsu") have two.

ン and シ have horizontal strokes, ソ and ツ have vertical ones.

Also, you've misread the bottom one: it's シードリング, "Seed Ring". The top is "Bone Pierce", though judging from the icon, "Pierce" in this instance means "Pierced Earring". So "Bone Earring".

Not to pry, but which game is this, anyway?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 03, 2011, 03:13:31 pm
It's Radiant Historia, Ryusui.

I've found a way to tell ン and ソ apart (finally!).

Anyways, here's another sentence:

Roche:
相変わらずつれないな。。。
Unfriendly, as usual…

オレ相手ならそれでいいが、
It would be good if we could become companions

地の奴にはそんな無憂想はやめた方がいいぜ?
Note: I'm pretty sure I made a mistake with the Kanji in red, any idea what it might be?


Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on January 03, 2011, 03:26:07 pm
It's Radiant Historia, Ryusui.

I've found a way to tell ン and ソ apart (finally!).

Anyways, here's another sentence:

Roche:
相変わらずつれないな。。。
Unfriendly, as usual…

オレ相手ならそれでいいが、
It would be good if we could become companions

地の奴にはそんな無憂想はやめた方がいいぜ?
Note: I'm pretty sure I made a mistake with the Kanji in red, any idea what it might be?


Um...I've got some good news and some bad news, then.

The good news is, you don't have to work on this anymore.

http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=88489

The bad news is, you don't have to work on this anymore.

Also, yeah, it's 無愛想 ("unsociability", "bluntness"). Also, are you sure it's 地 and not 他?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 03, 2011, 08:00:50 pm
ン ("n") and ソ ("so") have one stroke, シ ("shi") and ツ ("tsu") have two.

ン and シ have horizontal strokes, ソ and ツ have vertical ones.

Also, you've misread the bottom one: it's シードリング, "Seed Ring". The top is "Bone Pierce", though judging from the icon, "Pierce" in this instance means "Pierced Earring". So "Bone Earring".

Not to pry, but which game is this, anyway?
I might need new glasses, but that Earring says ポーンピアス. I have no idea what the word is, though. It might be the name of a town, or some other element of the game. But it's definitely not "bone".

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 03, 2011, 08:33:21 pm
Pawn earrings. Well, that or....
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on January 03, 2011, 09:35:01 pm
I might need new glasses, but that Earring says ポーンピアス. I have no idea what the word is, though. It might be the name of a town, or some other element of the game. But it's definitely not "bone".

Your right, DS -- that's a はんだくてん (゜). It looks the same as the one in the word ピアス.

One usage of ポーン is as a sound effect for jumping (think *boing*). Does that ring Do those earrings have anything to do with moving or jumping ability?


Roche:
相変わらずつれないな。。。
Unfriendly, as usual…

オレ相手ならそれでいいが、
It would be good if we could become companions

の奴にはそんな無憂想はやめた方がいいぜ?
Note: I'm pretty sure I made a mistake with the Kanji in red, any idea what it might be?

This should be:

Unfriendly, as always... ("as usual" is fine, too -- personal preference)
It's okay if you're unsociable with me,
but could you not be that way around other people?

The second line is tricky. オレ相手なら means "when you're dealing with me" (なら usually indicates a strong contrast with something else), so the whole line means "It's okay if you're that way when you're dealing with me,".


HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on January 03, 2011, 09:43:26 pm
Or just "Pawn Piece", as in a physical chess pawn.

Never mind, it's ピアス, not ピース.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 03, 2011, 11:19:08 pm
It took me an awful long time to wrap my head around the word 相手, since “companion” or “partner” doesn’t quite cut it when it really just means someone you’re with (whether you can even stand them or not... and in anime-world, often not). I often find myself omitting a direct word for it; much better to just cut to the intent of the statement when it shows up.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on January 04, 2011, 12:40:48 am
It'll be interesting to compare our discussion here with the official English version. It's out February 22nd.

EDIT: IGN has English screens. (http://ds.ign.com/articles/114/1142954p1.html)
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 13, 2011, 05:25:23 pm
Wowzer! Time for a new project then. Thanks for the heads up though, Ryusui.

This one is Wizardry for the DS. I stopped trying to translate for a bit, I kind of got discouraged over the sheer difficulty of the language.

I'm ok now, time to try some more.

過去に世界を掌握していた者たちは
後世に何を残そうとしたのか


(argh the のか again)

Particles in red.
Verb suffixes in brown.

Here’s my first question.

掌握していた:しょうあく is a verb noun followed by する which means to seize or to grab. I’m assuming that いた here is the past form of いる and is part of the verb construction して+いた。

What does it mean when you put the suffix してand いた there? Is いた an auxiliary there?

For example, could I say:
英語を勉強していた?In this case, what would it mean?


In the past some people seized the world…
I don’t really care so much about the translation. I just want to understand how this works.

I'm not moving on until I understand *everything* in this sentence.

I would really appreciate if you answered my question with clear and simple examples so that I can understand this.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on January 13, 2011, 05:39:54 pm
Just FYI, 掌握 is not a verb. It is a noun. 掌握する is a verb.

In fact, the entire first part up to the は is a noun: "Those who took over the world in the past." The は indicates that they are the subject of the sentence.

A rough translation for the rest would be "What was left behind for posterity?"

Quote
The conquerors of the ancient world...
What did they leave behind for future generations?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 13, 2011, 05:52:58 pm
Thank you Ryusui.

Yup, I thought it meant something along those lines.

What about this though:

Quote
What does it mean when you put the suffix してand いた there? Is いた an auxiliary there?

For example, could I say:
英語を勉強していた?In this case, what would it mean?

Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 13, 2011, 05:56:10 pm
Here’s my first question.

掌握していた:しょうあく is a verb which means to seize or to grab. I’m assuming that いた here is the past form of いる and is part of the verb construction して+いた。

What does it mean when you put the suffix してand いた there? Is いた an auxiliary there?

Like Ryusui said, 掌握 is a noun. You can turn a great deal of nouns into verbs by adding する to them (they're called "irregular verbs").

していた is the short-form (read: casual/informal) past-tense version of している. When you do て-form of a verb, plus the helper verb いる it indicates a state of something. For example: 今、日本語を勉強している is "I am currently studying Japanese."

For example, could I say:
英語を勉強していた?In this case, what would it mean?
This would mean "I was (in the state of) studying English" literally. I would probably say "I used to study English."

In the past some people seized the world…
I don’t really care so much about the translation. I just want to understand how this works.

I'm not moving on until I understand *everything* in this sentence.

I would really appreciate if you answered my question with clear and simple examples so that I can understand this.
I would probably translate the first sentence differently than Ryusui. I would say "The ones who conquered the world in the past", since they never really explicitly say it was the "ancient world". The second sentence, exactly the same.

Do you understand the volitional construction used in the second sentence (残そう)? That basically is the same as saying 残しましょう, but in informal speech. Add that to とした, and I'm not 100% certain, but I think it implies what they had chosen to leave behind.

In fact, can someone knowledgeable in Japanese grammar explain the verb + とした thing to me?

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 14, 2011, 07:46:52 am
When it’s volitional+とする, it means “try to <verb>” (in the case that it might not [in the future] or did not [in the past] succeed) or “about to <verb>” (in the case that there is no “try” about the action in question).
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 14, 2011, 07:51:21 am
When it’s volitional+とする, it means “try to <verb>” (in the case that it might not [in the future] or did not [in the past] succeed) or “about to <verb>” (in the case that there is no “try” about the action in question).
So while that might make sense for other instances, I'm still not sure what it means in -this- one. >_>;;

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 14, 2011, 09:50:04 am
{過去に世界を掌握していた者たちは}1{後世に}2{何を}3{残そうと}4{した}5{のか}6
{What}3 {did}5 {those who once controlled the world}1 {try to leave}4,5 {to future generations}2{?}6

In practical terms, the “try” is meant in the purest sense of the volitional. The speaker doesn’t know what {they}1 wanted to do, or even if {they}1 wanted to do anything in particular in this regard. You can take it out if you firmly believe what Yoda says about trying.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on January 14, 2011, 10:41:20 am
過去に世界を掌握していた者たちは
後世に何を残そうとしたのか


First off, this sentence is probably most accurately translated as:

1) What was it that the people who were ruling the world in the past tried to leave behind?

But (1) probably sounds better as:

2) What exactly were the past rulers of the world trying to leave behind?

As for いる -- or in this case, its past tense form いた -- it just means be. It's an auxiliary verb that functions almost as be does in English. One major difference is that is often behaves much like the English auxiliary verb have, as in the following conversation:

3) A: あの映画、見た?  Did/Have you see that movie?
   B: いや、まだ見て(い)ない。 No, I haven't.

The reason for this is that Japanese doesn't have a separate auxiliary for expressing present perfect (i.e. have done form); it expresses it using いる. Its function in a given sentence is usually clear from the context, so a separate word isn't necessary.

English used to be like this. Consider the first line of Joy To The World:

4) Joy to the world, the lord is come.

In more contemporary English, we'd use the word have here, but that wasn't the case in the past.

Next, as for ~そうとする, as others have already said, it means to attempt to do, with an added nuance of failure. Think about it this way:

5) Person A (thinking to himself): 帰ろうかな?  Maybe I should go home?
    Person A (to Person B): じゃ、帰る。  I'm going home.
    Person B: ええ? もう少しここでいて。  What? Stay/Be here for a bit.

Later, Person B might say to Person C:

6) Person A: 帰ろうとしたら、PersonBに止められたんだ。 When I tried to go home, I was stopped by person B.

The phrase とする is a variant of にする, which means to make something a certain way. So basically, in (6), 帰ろうとする (represented as 帰ろうとしたら) means to make it so that I might leave.

So, 残そうとした means made as so to possibly leave behind, which of course sounds much (much) better as tried to leave behind.

Finally, as for the dreaded のか, that can usually be represented as a so called it-clause:

1') What was it that the people who were ruling the world in the past tried to leave behind?

Compare this to:

7) What were the people who were ruling the world in the past tried to leave behind?

An it-clause places focus/emphasis on a certain element in a sentence. Japanese questions ending with のか usually imply that the thing in question is something unusual, mysterious, or unexpected. The question is not a neutral question -- the asker really really wants to know what the answer is, because it's not something obvious.

That's the best explanation I can come up with right now.

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 14, 2011, 09:32:36 pm
Very well explained, thank you.

I read each post a few times and thought about it for a while.

Would it be right to say that:

英語を勉強しました: I studied English. Simple past.
英語を勉強していた:I have studied English. Present perfect.
英語を勉強している: I am studing English. Present progressive.

Could we just sum things up to this or is it more complex than that?

About the のか Paul, I thought you said it was used to imply that we were expecting some sort of answer? Or is that another function of のか?

I do understand your explanation of のか there but I wanted to make sure this was the same function or a different one.

Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on January 15, 2011, 10:16:46 am
Would it be right to say that:

英語を勉強しました: I studied English. Simple past.
英語を勉強していた:I have studied English. Present perfect.
英語を勉強している: I am studying English. Present progressive.

Could we just sum things up to this or is it more complex than that?

About the のか Paul, I thought you said it was used to imply that we were expecting some sort of answer? Or is that another function of のか?

I do understand your explanation of のか there but I wanted to make sure this was the same function or a different one.

I don't think anyone would say 英語を勉強しました, unless they're talking about a one-shot study session, as in the following:

1) A: 今日、何した? What did you do today?
    B: 今日、英語を勉強した。 I studied English.

The second sentence would actually likely be interpreted as past progressive, i.e. I was studying English, which would be interpreted as I used to study English.

The third sentence is the present progressive -- an activity that started in the past and continues now. Studying a language usually takes a long time, and is usually represented using a progressive form. So the third sentence would actually be rendered as I was studying English.

Things get a little tricky with negatives, though. Consider:

2) A: 今日、英語を勉強した? Did you study English today?
    B: いや、まだしてない。 No, I haven't yet.

But anyway, it looks like you've got a the basic idea.

To add a little more to the previous discussion about のか, it basically represents surprise. You can sometimes represent it in grammar (as shown in my previous post), but it's more a feeling than anything else. A speaker who utters のか is trying to show that they really want to know the answer to something that is/was unexpected to them. It's often used in riddles, for example.

HTH
Title: ...
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 15, 2011, 11:00:57 am
Thank you Paul, I’m sure we’ll have more opportunities to deal with the particle compound のか in the near future.

About DS's question:

Well here’s how I understand it.

If you want to form the volitional of your verb, you’d need to know the dictionary form first.

残す; 遺す 【のこす】: to reserve; to bequeath; to leave (behind, over); to save.

ごだん. So once you know it’s ごだん then you replace the suffix –す by –そう。
So in this case 残す turns into 残そう。

Only here it’s not really volitional because it’s not so much the -そう as it is the -そうとした construction.
So like Paul said, tried to leave behind.

Here's the next sentence:

伝説とは、往々にして変成され
推并に語られ、その真実は忘却される


blue: I messed up the Kanji there but I can't make it out.
red: particles
brown: verb endings
black: nouns
Adv.: green

Expressions:
往々にして 【おうおうにして】 (adv) sometimes; occasionally; now and then; from time to time;

Alright, as usual, I'm not looking for the actual translation :thumbsup:.

Qts 1:
What is the word I've put in blue in the sentence? I can't make it out.

Qts 2:
I've underlined two endings in the sample, do they indicate the passive form?


A legend mentions [something] time and time again but the truth has been forgotten...
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: i88gerbils on January 15, 2011, 04:13:47 pm
1. Do you mean 推算 【すいさん】 ?
2. Yes, it is 'passive'. If you see many sentences or uses, you can infer more of a informative voice (like a news report or lab report). In this case a history lesson.

"推算に語られ" is pretty crucial to understanding this. You also forgot 変成【へんせい】, which is also crucial here.

Read & translate the phrases separately like this, and then combine them back together.
1. 伝説とは往々にして変成され
2. 推算に語られ、
3. その真実は忘却される.


How I would do it:

Spoiler:
Legends are sometimes changed and embellished, and the truth is forgotten.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 15, 2011, 08:41:26 pm
Thank you i88gerbills,

I didn't forget the character, I just wanted to do it step-by-step so to speak  ;).

世界の多くの人々は
Many people of the world...
This one is pretty easy, I thought.

I'll work on the next two phrases from now on:
そんな過去とすれ遺うほどの関係もなく
その時を終ていく


Here's what I'd like to know:

1. Is とすれ a different inflexion of とする which we saw before? (following 過去)? Or is it part of the expression: すれ違う 【すれちがう】 (v5u) to pass by one another; to disagree; to miss each other;

2. What does ほど mean here? My dictionary says:
ほど 【程】: indicates approx. amount or maximim; limit; upper limit; degree; extent; bounds
But I'm unsure as to the actual purpose of this adverbial noun.

3. What is もなく there? I'm guessing it's the inflected form or somethign else but what exactly?

4. About 終えていく、I know it's the て form of 終える. I was wondering if this was another case of Verb+て form+いる again. If not, what is that いく there, is it the kana form of 行く? Is it an auxiliary verb? What does it do?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 15, 2011, 10:02:22 pm
1. Is とすれ a different inflexion of とする which we saw before? (following 過去)? Or is it part of the expression: すれ違う 【すれちがう】 (v5u) to pass by one another; to disagree; to miss each other;
The latter. The reason for the kana is that the kanji 擦 probably isn’t given top billing in fonts with a limited number of kanji and certainly isn’t as common as 違.

2. What does ほど mean here? My dictionary says:
ほど 【程】: indicates approx. amount or maximim; limit; upper limit; degree; extent; bounds
But I'm unsure as to the actual purpose of this adverbial noun.
This what it does if you consider the ほど alone instead of how it’s usually used—it often works the way a certain definition of the English word “as” is used, not that that usually ends up being the best translation.

長いほど高い - as tall as it is long
遅くなるほど - the later it gets (more closely and less naturally: as it gets late)
なるほどね… - I see. (more closely and less naturally: as expected)
あくびが出るほど - enough to [make me] yawn
おこるほど - as much as [it] happens

These sorts of uses (at least in what my limited experience is) are more common than using it as a noun. In written language, it tends to be written in kana when used this way, and tends to be written in kanji when used as a noun.

3. What is もなく there? I'm guessing it's the inflected form or somethign else but what exactly?
〜もない indicates “there is not even ___”. By using the particle も instead of が, you get a different nuance than saying 〜がない, “there is no ___”. Contrast with positives: 〜もある, “there is even/also ___”; 〜がある, “there is ___”.

なく is the adverbial form of ない. There are multiple reasons for using an adverbial form of an adjective in Japanese; it is one way of closing an independent clause without also ending the sentence, for instance.

4. About 終えていく、I know it's the て form of 終える. I was wondering if this was another case of Verb+て form+いる again. If not, what is that いく there, is it the kana form of 行く? Is it an auxiliary verb? What does it do?
〜ていく is a grammar lesson unto itself (http://homepage3.nifty.com/i-yasu/Lesson-e32.htm).
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 16, 2011, 09:38:18 am
Awesome reply, thank you so much. I really appreciate it!

I've read the website you've linked and here's my understanding:

その時を終ていく

This is what I've read:

When "-te iku" is attached to an intentional verb as shown in sentence (6), it expresses the meaning of orderly actions like "doing a certain thing and the going away from a speaker/hearer" (example: tabete iku, mite iku) .

On the other hand, If  "-te iku is attached to a unintentional verb, as shown in sentence (12), it expresses "the progress of a state change", (examples: Samuku natte iku, It will get cold. Korekara mo shizen o taisetsu ni shite ikitai, We want to preserve nature from now on, too. Yo no naka ga kawatte itta, The world has changed).

The thing is, is 終える an intentional verb or not? I would say it's unintentional. In that case, could I translate to:

This time is coming to an end...

そんな過去とすれ遺うほどの関係もなく
This time is about to pass as there is no connection...

The full translation:
For many people around the world, this time is about to end as there is no connection... (?)

Am I right along the right track here?

まるで妖艶な花の芳しい香りに
誘われる蜜蜂のように
As if a flower released its bewitching smell to lure in the bees.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: BRPXQZME on January 16, 2011, 07:13:33 pm
The thing is, is 終える an intentional verb or not? I would say it's unintentional.
Nope.

The terms usually used in discussing grammar here are “transitive” (has a direct object; the subject is the agent that accomplishes the verb’s action) and “intransitive” (does not have a direct object; the verb just happens, end of story). Quite a few verbs (http://www.sljfaq.org/afaq/jitadoushi.html) in Japanese come in pairs of these (in English, similar pairs like “raise” and “rise” are rare; we usually either use the exact same verb for both [wherein the phrasing determines the difference] or two fairly unlike verbs).

So 終える is the transitive form, where some subject acts on some object. The intransitive verb 終わる means something came to an end, often of its own accord. It’s the difference between “he ended the [whatever]” and “the [whatever] ended”.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on January 16, 2011, 10:01:25 pm
世界の多くの人々は
そんな過去とすれうほどの関係もなく
その時を終えていく

So, this should be something like:

Many people in the world
live out their time
as though simply passing through the past,
with no connection to it at all.


As you noticed, the first line is pretty straightforward. The second line can be divided as follows:

そんな過去とすれ違うほど  to the extent of passing by/through that past
関係もなく  with no connection at all (も is used for emphasis here)

As for the interpretation of the third line, it seems clear from the context that the phrase その時を終える (ending that time) means that the people mentioned in the first line are dying.

The third line contains ~ていく, which here indicates a repeated action (i.e. dying). I don't think it's necessary to explicitly represent it, though. The simple present expresses this just fine, IMO.


Quote
まるで妖艶な花の芳しい香りに
誘われる蜜蜂のように
As if a flower released its bewitching smell to lure in the bees.

Close. This isn't an independent sentence -- it's an adverbial clause, which should be:

As though a honeybee lured by the bewitching, sweet-smelling fragrance of a flower

or possibly:

As though a honeybee bewitched by the sweet fragrance of a flower


You probably know this by now, but the best way to translate a complex sentence/clause is to reduce it to the core elements to get the basic meaning, and then to augment that meaning by incorporating the other elements.

In the clause above, the core is the subject, 蜜蜂. You can break down the clause like this:

蜜蜂のように  like a honeybee

What kind of honeybee?

誘われる蜜蜂  a honeybee that's been lured

Lured by who/what?

妖艶な花の芳しい香りに  by the bewitching, sweet-smelling fragrance of a flower

Exactly like a honeybee?

まるで 蜜蜂のように  almost exactly like a honeybee


HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 17, 2011, 10:53:54 am
Thanks to both of you.

Alright Paul, I’ll try to use your technique this time around.
彼らは何かを求め
闇が包み込む迷宮へと挑む


彼らは:「かれらは」So the topic is of this sentence is about them (they).
They…

何かを求め:  「なにかをもとめ」Something is the direct object of request.
So this gives me:
They requested something…

闇:「やみ」: darkness. Followed by the subject marker 「が」.

包み込む:「つつみこむ」:(v.) to wrap up.

迷宮:「めいきゅう」:(n.) labyrinth

へと:This is a particle compound but I have no idea what it does. Perhaps it means to go in a direction with something…

挑む:「いどむ」:(v.) to challenge
So I would say something among the lines of:

They requested that some people challenge the darkness that engulfed the labyrinth.

A question:
「包み込む」defines what comes after, in this case 迷宮 correct?
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on January 17, 2011, 10:42:12 pm
Alright Paul, I’ll try to use your technique this time around.
彼らは何かを求め
闇が包み込む迷宮へと挑む


彼らは:「かれらは」So the topic is of this sentence is about them (they).
They…

The structure of this sentence is a little different from the other one you posted about the bees. That one was a passive adverbial clause, with the subject at the end. This is a normal "active" sentence, so you need to approach it in a different way.

First, think about the core structure. The core structure of this sentence is:

1) 彼らは 挑む。  They dare/challenge

Everything else in the sentence modifies this basic action. If you work backwards from the main verb, the next thing you'll find is the answer to, "How/in what way did they dare/challenge?". The answer is:

2) 迷宮へと  to the labyrinth

The へと here is confusing. AFAIK, と turns the phrase before it into an adverbial clause. と is often used as a substitute for に, which usually functions as an adverbial marker. For whatever reason, you never find the particle sequence へに in Japanese -- へと is used instead. You could also think of と as "quoting" the phrase that comes before it -- picture somebody thinking or shouting "To the labyrinth!".

Then, "What kind of labyrinth?"

3) 闇が包み込む  (one) shrouded/veiled/enveloped in darkness

Notice that (3) is actually a short sentence, with a subject (闇) and a verb phrase (包み込む). 闇 is marked by が because 闇 is the subject of an embedded clause/sentence, and not the subject of the whole sentence.

Then, "What was the purpose of this challenge?"

4) 何かを求め  to seek/find/search for something

If you put this all together, you get the run-on like sentence:

5) They dare(d?) their way to the labyrinth enshrouded by darkness in search of something.

Quote
A question:
「包み込む」defines what comes after, in this case 迷宮 correct?

Yes. Note that this is the opposite of English, in which modifying clauses (i.e. sentences that modify noun phrases) come after the elements they modify.

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 18, 2011, 10:06:13 am
Epic explanation Paul, thank you.

(http://img37.picoodle.com/i51i/freemind/pn_174_u5vq6.png)
莫大な金銀財宝、華々しい名誉
練魔される技術、「?」えられる知識
そして積み上げられる徳

I'm not certain about the Kanji highlighted in yellow.

Since this is once again a long sentence, I'll take it slow and go one phrase at a time.

莫大な金銀財宝、華々しい名誉
Great treasures of gold ans silver, spectacular prestige

莫大な:「ばくだいな」(adj.) vast
金銀:「きんぎん」:(n.) gold and silver
財宝:「ざいほう」:(n.) treasure
華々しい:「はなばなしい」:(adj.) brilliant, spectacular
名誉:「めいよ」:(n.) honor, prestige


練魔される技術、

練 【きたう】 Kitau (u) 【ねり】 Neri (s) 【れん】 Ren (s) NA
魔 【ま】 (n) (1) demon; devil; evil spirit; evil influence; (n-suf) (2) (See 覗き魔) someone who (habitually) performs some (negative) act; (P); ED
される (v1) honorific or passive form of the verb "suru"; KD
技術 【ぎじゅつ】 (n) art; craft; technique; technology; engineering; skill; (P);

I’m not sure I understand the function of される here. Does it mean:
Crafter by evil spirits…?

そして積み上げられる徳。
...and was piled up for profit.

そして (conj) and; KD
Possible inflected verb or adjective: (passive or potential)
積み上げる 【つみあげる】 (v1,vt) to pile up; to make a heap; to lay bricks; ED
徳 【とく】 (n) (1) virtue; (2) benevolence; (3) (See 得・とく・1) profit; benefit; advantage; ED

自ら望めば誰もが
夢を見ることができた時代

自ら:「みずから」:for one’s self
望む:「のぞむ」:(v.) to desire
誰も:「だれも」:everyone
夢を見る:「ゆめをみる」:(v.) to have a dream, to dream
時代:「じだい」:(n.) era

For everyone desired this for themselves, those kind of dreams were possible at that time.


人々は彼らのことを「冒険者」と呼ぶ
Everyone called those people adventurers.

 
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: i88gerbils on January 18, 2011, 11:25:49 am
Quote
錬磨される技術

錬磨 you mistyped as . They have the same reading too. :-)
技術 is skill. You see this word as well as each separated very often in games (特技, 技, 術).

I look at this phrase like this - 技術 that/which are/will be 錬磨. Like Paul Jensen mentioned, it's beneficial to work backwards through the sentence.

される is the passive of する. We know that when you combine a "noun" + する it's like making a verb out of "noun". So 錬磨される is like 錬磨する except passive. It's similar to saying 技術は彼に錬磨される (note I added the 彼に for clarity). As a side note, 彼に錬磨されるのは技術 would be another way of conveying something similar. Try to word all three of these separately and you'll see they convey similar meaning in English (but not exact).

1. 錬磨される技術.
2. 技術は彼に錬磨される.
3. 彼に錬磨されるのは技術.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 18, 2011, 11:58:52 am
Alright, let me try again then.

錬磨される技術.
So the passive form of 練磨「れんま」 is ''was practiced''. What follow is 技術「ぎじゅつ」for technique. So:
A technique which was practiced.

技術は彼に錬磨される
The technique was practiced by him.

彼に錬磨されるのは技術.

(not too sure about this one)
What was practiced by him is a technique.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 18, 2011, 05:33:07 pm
That section is kind of...strange. But here goes anyway:

莫大な金銀財宝、華々しい名誉
練磨される技術、蓄えられる知識
そして積み上げられる徳
A vast treasure of silver and gold, a magnificent honor.
Techniques that are mastered, knowledge that is preserved.
And finally, the benevolence that was gained.

I didn't know what that kanji was, to be honest. But I took a page from the BRPXQZME book of tricks, and I googled the first line of the paragraph. It just so happens I pulled up a .pdf scan of some publicity thing for the game (Wizardry, right?), which had the full quote, and the kanji in question. Never hurts to try doing that if you're having trouble transcribing something.

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on January 18, 2011, 07:55:21 pm
Epic explanation Paul, thank you.

No problem. :)


莫大な金銀財宝、華々しい名誉
練磨される技術、蓄えられる知識
そして積み上げられる徳
A vast treasure of silver and gold, a magnificent honor.
Techniques that are mastered, knowledge that is preserved.
And finally, the benevolence that was gained.

I'd put this a slightly different way:

Vast riches of silver and gold,
Spectacular honor,
Skills to be honed,
Knowledge to be stored,
And virtue to be attained.

The phrase 積み上げられる is especially hard to render in English in this case because it literally translates to pile up, which doesn't sound very poetic at all.

The last line could be profit to be amassed, but it's probably unlikely since gold and silver were already mentioned in the first line.


Quote
自ら望めば誰もが
夢を見ることができた時代

For everyone desired this for themselves, those kind of dreams were possible at that time.[/i]

Close. The core of this phrase (it's not a complete sentence) is 時代, so the structure should be something like:

1) It was an age when...

The full translation is:

2) It was an age when anyone who desired could have such dreams.


Quote
人々は彼らのことを「冒険者」と呼ぶ
Everyone called those people adventurers.

Looks good to me.

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 18, 2011, 08:12:02 pm
Thanks to both of you.

Quote
Looks good to me.

YEEEEEAAAAHHH!

Paul, you've often mentioned the core of a sentence. How do you determine what is the core of a sentence? Common sense?

Or is it usually a noun, or words at the beginning or the end of a sentence?

Could you clarify this concept please? I'm making some progress and I think that strategies such as going from the end of the sentence and back or finding the core element are really great and useful to know.

ここは?どこだ?
This place... Where am I?

(http://img40.picoodle.com/i51i/freemind/0_f5b_u5vq6.png)
久しぶりの「擭」物か。。。
I'm having difficulty identifying the kanji in bold (I know this one is wrong but I don't know which one is right).

Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on January 18, 2011, 08:20:09 pm
Double-check your left-hand radical. It's 獲.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Paul Jensen on January 18, 2011, 10:05:20 pm
I've got a lot of free time today. :)

Paul, you've often mentioned the core of a sentence. How do you determine what is the core of a sentence? Common sense?

I'd define the core of a sentence as "the basic elements/structure of a sentence, without any modifications".  Take the following English sentence, for example:

1) John, a guy I used to go to school with, called me the other day to invite me to lunch.

The core of this sentence would be:

2) John called me.

The extra elements in (1) (i.e. a guy I used to go to school with, the other day, to invite me to lunch) are there to provide additional information about the basic situation: that I was called (presumably on the phone) by someone named John.

The two best core elements to look for in Japanese sentences are: (a) main verbs (or adjectives) and (b) things marked with は.  Main verbs usually come at the end of a sentence, end in either dictionary form or ます form, and are often followed by a maru (。). When something is marked with は, that generally (but not always) means that it's connected to the main verb somehow.

I don't have time to write anything else now, but maybe I can add some examples later.

HTH
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 19, 2011, 04:04:46 pm
Ah ok, I understand better Paul. Thank you Ryusui for the Kanji identification, I do appreciate it.

久しぶりの獲物か。。。
It's been a while since the spoils...

かつて、ドラグーン族どもが幾度となく

ここは余の狩り場
This is my hunting ground.

かつて、ドラグーン族どもが幾度となく
I don’t understand this phrase so I’m going to break it down in units.

かつて:(adv.) once, formerly.

ドラグーン族 どもが: all of the (pitiful?) dragoon clan

幾度となく:「いくとどなく」:many times

余に排み : expeled me many times

。。。そして消えていった場所。

So I was disappearing from this place.

Question: We have the ーて+いく form again (only this time it's in the past). Does it have the same function as last time?

EDIT: Sorry about the mess, I agree that it's a bit messy. I'll fix this next time.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 19, 2011, 06:08:25 pm
Your transcriptions/translations are becoming very unorganized. I couldn't find a script from google searching, so I guessed what pieces went where:

久しぶりの獲物か
かつて、ドラグーン族どもが幾度となく余に排み
ここは余の狩り場
。。。そして消えていった場所。
Ah, the old spoils of battle, huh.
Once, long ago, the Dragoon clan expelled me from it's ranks, many a time.
This is my hunting ground.
And it is also the place where I eventually disappeared.

Now, I have no context for this. But when a person is talked about using 消える, it can sometimes have the implication that the person dies. So he could literally be saying "And it is also the place where I had died."

You broke down the sentence pretty well, but I can't make much sense of it either since I'm unaware of the context. It sounds like perhaps that the character was once part of the Dragoon Clan, but he had been expelled from it many times over.

The ていった is different from ている(past tense: ていた). In this case, it is ていく, and it implies a state of something that gradually happened.

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: SeekerOfPeace on January 25, 2011, 03:48:05 pm
それは知る者のいない物語

Here is everything I can make out of that sentence:
物語:「ものがたり」:(n.) a legend
いない:(v.) informal present negative of 「いる」, to be.
これは:「これ」followed by the topic particle, は。
知る者:「知る」(v.) to know followed by 者「もの」which means a person.

What I am having difficulty with is this part:
知る者のいない…
I only have one question (please don’t translate):
I’m not sure what いないdescribes here, is it the legend of those who know? I’m saying this because of the の there.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 25, 2011, 06:06:08 pm
A few things.

- I tend to translate 物語 as "tale" or "story" (源氏物語, "The Tale of Genji"). It's got a slightly different connotation than "legend" (which I often see as 伝 or 伝説).

- You put これは in your breakdown, it's それは.

- As far as いない goes, it's all about the の here. Because they're using noun-qualification to describe the story, they can connect any noun and verb together that would normally take the particle が (知る者がいない) and replace it with の. It's describing the story as "being without those who know about it". So the story would be a story that no one has ever heard of.

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on January 25, 2011, 06:17:31 pm
"A tale with no tellers."

"A tale with no one to tell it."

"A tale told by no one."

Pick the one that sounds best to you and run with it.
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: DarknessSavior on January 25, 2011, 10:00:05 pm
"A tale with no tellers."

"A tale with no one to tell it."

"A tale told by no one."

Pick the one that sounds best to you and run with it.
He said not to translate it, y'know. :P

~DS
Title: Re: Japanese Translation Questions
Post by: Ryusui on February 06, 2011, 02:50:45 pm
Semi-relevant: if anyone ever had any doubts about Atlus' dedication to bringing Radiant Historia stateside...

http://www.siliconera.com/2011/02/06/radiant-historias-localization-began-in-august-2010/

Answer's in the link, folks. They started work on the localization three months before it shipped in Japan.