Final Fantasy VII is quite challenging.

[Corsair]

You don't even know who the hero really is until the last part of the game,

Well, I'm fine with the rest of the post but this is just plain not true. It's apparent within a span of about five seconds. Unless we're talking about post-release retconning.

And the fact that you can replace every instance of "FF7" with any number of RPG's produced in the mid 90's with a decent budget. Phantasy Star 4 comes especially to mind.



Personally, I liked it enough to finish it twice, but I can't say I recall getting particularly attached to any of the characters or plot points. Now it's been about ten years since i last played it, but I remember some *locations* extremely well. Between the music and the general prettiness of the backgrounds, I had plenty of motivation to keep playing, if only to see what the next area looked like.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure I played it for the graphics, which seems extremely silly *now*, but I was also like 17 at the time.

[Panzer88]

@Bregalad

I think what a lot of people are getting at is that Final Fantasy VII was a yep backwards from Final Fantasy VI as far as depth of characters, and it was designed to attract people who could care less about a well crafted RPG a d just showed up for the "graphics, boobs, and kick ass fight sequences"

In essence it ended what Final Fantasy had been to sell out to the mainstream. Furthermore, Final Fantasy had been a fairly international series up until that point, it was made in Japan but referenced all kinds of mythology. The main characters in the big sellers, VII, X, XIII, they become increasingly more Japanese anime stereotypes with each iteration.

This is truly ironic as the older games sold pretty much exclusively in Japan where as the newer titles make more outside of Japan. How backwards. The Zelda franchise is also Japanifying over time but not in the same way or to the same degree.

[Bregalad]

It's apparent within a span of about five seconds.

I have no clue what you are insinuating...

And the fact that you can replace every instance of "FF7" with any number of RPG's produced in the mid 90's with a decent budget. Phantasy Star 4 comes especially to mind.

Ah okay so those guys are griping to JRPGs as a whole, FF7 was just a random victim.
Then that's fine to each their own, I personally hate FPSes although everybody in the world seems to love this particular genre I don't. You don't see what is behind you, isn't that awful ?
Oh and I hate horror games, who likes to be frightened ? A little is fun but too much ? Definitely not me.
I just have to tolerate fans of these genres even if I admit sometimes I get pissed of when the conversation about these goes on for a long time and I can't take part in it.

Now it's been about ten years since i last played it, but I remember some *locations* extremely well.

Yeah, I feel the same actually (even if I played it again last year). I remembered the locations more than the story in fact.

I think what a lot of people are getting at is that Final Fantasy VII was a yep backwards from Final Fantasy VI as far as depth of characters, and it was designed to attract people who could care less about a well crafted RPG a d just showed up for the "graphics, boobs, and kick ass fight sequences"

Interesting point. Personally I think the Playstation trilogy is the pinnacle of the series, although the SNES trilogy was great too, but I fully agree the series went mad during the PS2 area.
I don't know recent FFs well enough to juge if they are more japanese or wathever, but FF10 definitely feels more asian in it's environment, which in fact I liked.

[Panzer88]

Yeah, I dont fault FFVII for gameplay other than the long summon animations, but I liked materia and just the battle engine was pretty, interesting, and engaging.

And yeah FFX is very much based around east Asian islands which is fine, id just like to see a return to the roots, or at least something original like an African or south American theme or something.

I just felt the characters in FFVI had true depth and motivation and it was exposed well through the game.

I really felt Celes' despair after the end of the world, and the party's mistrust of her at first.

Also Terra's identity crisis seemed more legitimate to me than Cloud's. I felt cloud didnt have much of a reason to fall to pieces like he did. In any case, I guess it all comes down to how you interpret them.

Both FFVII and FFVIII are interesting games, but I feel like the scenarios and characters weren't really completed, FFVIII, being the worse offender in that it felt like they just ran out of time making it. Its beautiful, but seems half baked, perhaps its just "extra deep" but im not a fan of thing that are that abstract or open to interpretation.

This problem has carried over into the story of the Kingdom Hearts series. Great games technically but the storylines are very abstract with a lot of holes and unanswered questions.

[Spooniest]

>


That is all.

[Panzer88]

Really, it's all referential. As a stand alone game in a vacuum, FFVII is a fine and great game, but it has a ton of baggage.

If it had just been a one off game by some random developer called "Children of Mako" I probably would recommend it as a great, little known PS1 RPG that is kind of a final fantasy clone with attitude, that is a little rough around the edges but worth a playthrough.

Its actual popularity though is ridiculous. It's overrated, and it altered the series from what it had been (and in my opinion, not in a good way), and that context changes everything.

Final Fantasy VII is not a _bad_ game.

To me it would be like Pixar deciding to make Terminator movies from now on.

[Deathlike2]

The FFVI vs FFVII debate has been done to death.

RIP: My Care

What Surprises me is how many people praise FFIV but don't care for FFV at all. I also am puzzled at people who have no problem playing through all the limitations of FFVII but can't bare to play FFIX. Even if you dont like the style or story, its just artistically more consistent

I like FFV. Storytelling is very much like FF4, but probably does a better job of it since all the major characters are there throughout the story (though, due to the class change system).

Indeed, the debate has been done to death...  but we enjoy it, right?

FFIV is much stronger in terms of story, and I suspect that is why most prefer it to FFV.  I know I do.  Something just never quite clicks with FFV, at least for me.  It's definitely a throwback to the games that really don't have a strong plot, other than "crystals evil save world blah blah blah".  FFIX is...  well, I don't know what to say about it.  I know that about at the end of disc 2, I was ready for it to be over.  It may be more consistent, but it's just not as fun for me...  although I suspect I would feel the same about FFVII if I did a full replay (as opposed to ten hours and dropping it).  FFVIII was my favorite, but it's been a long time since I played through, so who knows?  Maybe it would fall victim as well.  (And actually, it did, as I was doing all the optional stuff, and about the middle of disc 3, I just said "screw it" and made a concerted end-run.)

FF4 is more of a classic cookie cutter of the basics (in some ways, a reflection of FF1 in terms of gameplay). Being different doesn't make it better or worse though.

I can't decide if I think that everyone has played them and feels this way, or if it is just a perpetuated stereotype.

Its true that Final Fantasy V is more rooted in classic fantasy/mythology, but classic style does not equal no plot. The claim that Final Fantasy IV has more depth or plot is crazy to me. The classes in FFIV are cookie cutter and can't be altered, I dont hate it, but back in 1999 when I started playing them all, it was the last one I finished. To me it felt very melodramatic with every character seemingly sacrifising themselves, I guess I just didnt really connect with any of the characters except Cicil and Rydia.

Well, it got better for me when it came to the translations for FF4, thus enriching my experience. Although, I do have a strange anti-Rosa bias (dunno when I've developed that), but character development was a bit more lacking in FF4 than it is FF5.

On top of that the color palette is pretty jareing in comparison with V and VI, and the music got a lot better in V and VI too.

You know... this stuff gets better over time.

I encourage people who feel V has no story to play it again, the middle is slow but the rest is great.

There's a better chance of me playing FF5 than replaying FF6. People underestimate some of the mediocrity of FF6. (FF5 has its own vices too, but people are very likely not good at putting together a fun group to fight in certain areas... I digress). The most negative thing I had with FF6 was the general depreciation of special skills that characters had once you got access to magic. Plus, you had unbalanced characters (for example, Terra was epic, whereas Relm was primarily better as a caster). Then again, I don't understand the dislike for Gogo (people don't bother to use the built-in versatility, so I guess people don't care for awesomeness)


I kinda want to play FF7 more, but ultimately people try to compare FF6 and FF7 as if they are somehow should be the same in some qualitative comparison... which they are simply not. Different games with different goals... I don't see what the fuss is all about.

[Jorpho]

Indeed, the debate has been done to death...  but we enjoy it, right?

Did I do that right?

[Panzer88]

I like FFV. Storytelling is very much like FF4, but probably does a better job of it since all the major characters are there throughout the story (though, due to the class change system).

good point (that they're not that different) but I did like not having characters come and go and die all the time. When yang and palom and parom or cid sacrifised themselves, I really didn't care, when Galuf sacrifised himself in the way he did for the reason he did it really hit me.

I can't reallly say that Final Fantasy V is quantitatively better, nor is there any meaning in trying to say that. I think you have some great points Deathlike, I think I brought it up defensively, not because I want to bash on FFIV, but because I can't understand what it is so much more revered than FFV, especially, due to technical limitations, it was a little more crude. I mean don't get me wrong it was a marvel compared to NES games and a huge leap forward for the series and there was the ATB system also.

I guess I just think that most people suffer from FFVII/Ocarina of Time syndrome with FFIV, it was the first or first 16 bit anyways Final Fantasy game they played, or first JRPG they played and so it holds a special place for them. I guess I'm immune to that because I didnt' play it till after I played VI, V, Super Mario RPG, and Dreamcast games for pete's sake, so I came at it from a different viewpoint.

I think it should be heralded for it's achievements, but the overall general disregard and disinterest for FFV is so confusing for me. It is FAR from perfect, but it does a lot of things better, and a lot of new things great.

You know... this stuff gets better over time.

I know it's not fair to compare, they had a lot more resources and tech for V, and they learned from what they did with IV, again, I think I'm making the comparison because it seems like the majority of people thinks that IV was completely better and V was some sort of devolution. Truth be told I think it's because most people played it last when it was older because it wasn't translated for so long and as a result they aren't as hard on the games they played when they were younger, I know I'm not as hard on OoT as I should be.

I had with FF6 was the general depreciation of special skills that characters had once you got access to magic. Plus, you had unbalanced characters (for example, Terra was epic, whereas Relm was primarily better as a caster).

agreed, if you take customization too far and make it too easy, all characters become very ununique, and also, as you said, broken.

I kinda want to play FF7 more, but ultimately people try to compare FF6 and FF7 as if they are somehow should be the same in some qualitative comparison... which they are simply not. Different games with different goals... I don't see what the fuss is all about.

it's true, they're aiming for different things, I guess that's the biggest problem. They all have their flaws, and as much as some people may hate the dialog or story in VII, or cringe at the primitive map character models, it's NOT a bad game.

I think most people, or at least myself, take more issue with the fact that it was a first step away from something I loved, and a step towards FFX.

in all honesty I think the whole battle system in FFVII is kick ass.

[Talbain]

Oh yay, this conversation again.

[Auryn]

@ Spooniest:

I don't feel sorry for Aeris at all. If anything, I think she's an idiot for having been taken by surprise so easily. I don't care what it's a symbol for. She should've been on guard.

I am sure that you didn't notice the many errors (8 or so) in that FMV.
Change of position of Aeris (facing the stair, opposite direction and back), change of the ground under her knees from mirror to square and back), Seph with/without glow etc...
All by memory, maybe some detail is wrong.

I can't judge the japanese story because I never played it but I know they had very big problems translating the text (from space limitations to text without speaker nor context etc...).
Still some japanese programmers make the life difficult to who has to translate the games.
Look around THIS SITE to see some examples and stories from a professional translator.

[Nec5]

Not to mention all the rumors about locking out used games (or requiring a constant Internet connection).  I don't know if they're just floating trial balloons, or are actually serious about it, but they're asking for another crash if they do that.

The ultimate goal of software makers in the future is to make you pay a monthly fee for anything and everything.  No more fire and forget or used games.  You will pay Squarenix a fee per month for the rest of your life and you get to play their games.  Microsoft has actually declared they want their OS to be this way sooner rather than later.  I suspect that some software giants will move this way, horribly impossible though it may seem.  If you think it unlikely, it was only a brief 10-15 years ago when everyone said that no one would pay $5-$10 to purchase a shield or item for a game via downloadable content.  That was viewed as asinine and fleecing the customer (it is).  No one would go for that.  Today, it's the norm.  

The really insane part is that these companies advertise these things as selling-points. 

Look at cable or satellite television.  In all their brochures, they boast about offering thousands of movies on-demand.  On-demand?  You're not doing us any favors.  We still have to pay money to watch each of those movies.  How the hell is that a selling point?  It's like a restaurant advertising the fact that they give you a menu.  But the sheep lap it all up.

[Spooniest]

Oh yay, this conversation again.

If you've got a better idea now's the time.

[DankPanties]

My biggest problem with FF7, is that it caused so much damage to the genre I loved up until that release.  The damage I'm talking about, is a developer of a JRPG putting more work into the beauty of the project, rather than the brains.  The center selling point ceased being the gameplay and plot... instead it focused on great graphics, a huge OST, and CG FMVs that take up multiple discs.  Those latter three things are what the ignorant masses wanted.  So for years afterwards, quality JRPGs became scarcer and scarcer, due to developers focusing on that triad of glossy paint.  Yes there are exceptions, but if you graph the quality versus quantity for a decade after the release of FF7 versus a decade before, you might find I have a point.  You might even agree with me.

However, keep in mind, this is coming from a guy who was 18 when FF7 was released.  At that time, I was concerned with graduating high school, finding a career, and getting laid.  If I had still been a bedroom bound angsty 13 year old, I may have found FF7 to be a revelatory experience like everyone else.  And then I could see it through the nostalgia glasses as well.  But in 1997, at 18 years old, I saw Cloud's goofy-assed design for the first time and said, "I have zero desire to play as that character in any game ever."  Someone said to me that if I liked Japanimation I'd like his design.  I told them I had been watching anime since I was at least five years old and they had no idea what the fuck they were talking about.

So maybe I'm an elitist asshole, but since the release of FF7 there are a few games I can use as a watermark of a fellow gamer's critical cred in my book.  And their opinion of FF7 is one of the easiest points of reference to use.  But to be honest, I'm tired of talking about the game too.  We're such a small forum here, that the regulars by now all know how the other regulars feel towards that ever-so-polarizing game.

[BRPXQZME]

Excuse me, I have carefully sent mixed signals about that game in approximately four years of regular posting here and do not appreciate the insinuation that anyone here knows how I really feel about that game

[DankPanties]

PUNK'SNOTDEAD

[LostTemplar]

Those latter three things is what the ignorant masses wanted.

Isn't this the root of all evil? Most games today try to appeal to the masses. And the masses in general have terrible taste in... about everything. But I see your point with FF7, it certainly was one of the turning-point-games.

[MisterJones]

they are unwashed too.

[geishaboy]

Not to mention illiterate.

[DankPanties]

Not to mention illiterate.

Those latter three things is are what the ignorant masses wanted.

NO COFFEE MAKE BAD WORDINGS

Also...