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Author Topic: Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES  (Read 4636 times)

Bregalad

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Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES
« on: March 20, 2012, 05:41:42 pm »
Everything is in the title.

I ask this because I'm considering making a Mega Man X3 hack that would insert Playstation's version streamed music in the SNES ROM. For this I'll need ~18MB of extra space, could probably fit in 16MB (24-bit addressing) if I had to. However the original ROM is only 2MB, and the largest official SNES game is 6MB.

I remember Byuu did some demo with a FMV which was extremely large but worked only in BSNES.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 07:53:26 pm by Bregalad »

rveach

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Re: By how much are SNES ROMs expandable ?
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2012, 05:45:49 pm »
Quote
While the SNES can address 128 Mbit,[f] only 117.75 Mbit are actually available for cartridge use. A fairly normal mapping could easily address up to 95 Mbit of ROM data (48 Mbit at FastROM speed) with 8 Mbit of battery-backed RAM.[66] However, most available memory access controllers only support mappings of up to 32 Mbit. The largest games released (Tales of Phantasia and Star Ocean) contain 48 Mbit of ROM data,[80][81] while the smallest games contain only 2 Mbit.

Wikipedia

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Bregalad

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Re: By how much are SNES ROMs expandable ?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2012, 06:10:06 pm »
OK so apparently the limit is ~12MB (96 MBits), but since the game itself already needs 2MB (obviously) I'd have to make the music fit in 10MB, technically possible but the quality won't be as high as I'd like it to.

Now will the Cx4 chip enter with conflict with that idea somehow ? Sorry but SNES memory mapping is quite complex and it's been a while since I've studied it^^

Gary_Oak

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Re: By how much are SNES ROMs expandable ?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2012, 06:40:40 pm »
While I am by no means a programming expert, I would strongly recommend you to seek help in byuu's bsnes forums. There's a lot of talented folk over there that have learned to make the most out of byuu's MSU1, which should allow you to make the most out of streamed music with no limits whatsoever (you can even put the PSX/SAT version movie cutscenes in there with the MSU1 if you wish).

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Re: By how much are SNES ROMs expandable ?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2012, 06:43:41 pm »
Problem is, he doesn't want to limit the user to bsnes only.
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Nightcrawler

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Re: By how much are SNES ROMs expandable ?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2012, 07:10:02 pm »
Just for information, the 'regular' limit is going to be 32Mbit with plain vanilla HiROM/LoROM addressing the majority of carts use. To even get the 96Mbit that Star Ocean does, you need to use special mapping (not supported by several emulators) or a special chip that contains memory mapping (also probably unsupported if you do something different than a stock game that uses it).

Since you are already required to use the CX-4, you're limited in emulator support. Right off the bat, unless you use BSNES with it's XML mapping, I don't believe any expansion is going to be supported by any other emulators. Even if you get lucky with some linear expansion that works (I don't know off-hand how MMX3 maps now), I doubt you'd be able to map all available regions for maximum space. The CX4 itself doesn't interfere too much on a technical level. It maps through banks $00-$3f and not too huge of a region at that. The CX4 is just a function cruncher with some registers and little bit of RAM.


What you really want to do is use the MSU-1. It was designed specifically for what you are trying to do. :) It will give you 64GB of space and allow you to stream that audio in all it's glory. That's what byuu used for the FMV demo. It would be limited to only working on BSNES at present. However, it is feasible to work on real hardware and thus could be supported by hardware devices (already one WIP product) and other emulators in the future. The fact that it can run on the hardware gives it enough merit to at least consider.

You're probably going to be limited to BSNES no matter what you do.
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Bregalad

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Re: By how much are SNES ROMs expandable ?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2012, 08:08:11 am »
The problem is that I don't know if it's possible to have both the MSU-1 and the Cx4 at the same time. If it is then it'd be a solution.

And I wonder how many emus could handle a 96Mbit/12MB ROM with Cx4... the best way is to give it a try probably.
According to SNES9x, the ROM mapping is LoROM but it says that for all ROMs using special chips (including the Cx4) so I'm not too sure if it's just a default value in the SNES header or what.

Nightcrawler

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Re: By how much are SNES ROMs expandable ?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2012, 09:21:12 am »
The problem is that I don't know if it's possible to have both the MSU-1 and the Cx4 at the same time. If it is then it'd be a solution.

Yes, it is. There is no conflict that I see. MSU-1 uses only a few addresses not asserted with the cart line and not in conflict with CX-4 A-bus registers.

Quote
And I wonder how many emus could handle a 96Mbit/12MB ROM with Cx4... the best way is to give it a try probably.
According to SNES9x, the ROM mapping is LoROM but it says that for all ROMs using special chips (including the Cx4) so I'm not too sure if it's just a default value in the SNES header or what.

Most likely none aside from BSNES. You'd need the ability to map all unused areas from all banks for maximum space. The closest you'll probably find outside BSNES is 'ExLoROM' support in SNES9x which has a maximum of 64Mbit. Even then, it's doubtful Cx4 support is provided under those mappings (You should confirm though).

It also can be tricky to expand a LoROM games in general to these extents because it may check or use normally mirrored areas, which would no longer be mirrored. It might require code modifications or copying some blocks of ROM to overcome this issue. I'd advise checking the documentation of Lunar Expand. It gives some nice pointers on expanding LoROM games and the issues you may encounter.

In some cases it's also possible to convert to HiROM and then 'ExHiROM' (Also 64Mbit limit) is an option and that is supported in ZSNES and SNES9x.  If I recall, Tales of Phantasia maps 48mbit that way. Feasibility of conversion is determined by the size of the game and how it's doing it's access currently. That could get out of the realm of practicality very quickly though.

Regardless of mapping, you ultimately would to use the following regions for ROM:
C0-FF:0000-FFFF
40-7D:0000-FFFF
00-3F/80-BF:8000-FFFF

In theory, you could also use all available regions that go out on the A-bus regardless of cart assertions, which includes several other small regions (such as the ones MSU1 and CX4 use). I'd imagine there is definitely no support of any kind for that outside of BSNES. It wouldn't net you all that much extra space either and it is very poor on contiguous access (very fragmented), but if you wanted every last byte, it could be done in theory.
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Bregalad

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Re: Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 07:59:56 pm »
OK so the soundtrack can be shrunk to 10MB and still sound good enough. That would make it work without the need for the MSU-1.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/BRRTools/MMX3_10MB_pack.tar

I had to reduce the samplerate to 17.5 kHz for the data to fit in 10MB, cymbals are negatively affected by this change but other than that it's not much of a problem.

Now the next step is to see if emus allow the ROM to expand by this much, and if so, to write a streamer program for the SNES that I can test on my PowerPak independently of MMX3.
Then if I ever get that working, I'd just have to hack this in MMX3 and hurray... good music in the SNES version of the game.

Panzer88

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Re: By how much are SNES ROMs expandable ?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2012, 09:54:18 pm »
Problem is, he doesn't want to limit the user to bsnes only.

you don't have to use bsnes, you can also load it on the sd2snes flashcart and play it on a real SNES.
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omonim2007

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Re: Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2014, 05:13:31 am »
OK so the soundtrack can be shrunk to 10MB and still sound good enough. That would make it work without the need for the MSU-1.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23465629/BRRTools/MMX3_10MB_pack.tar

I had to reduce the samplerate to 17.5 kHz for the data to fit in 10MB, cymbals are negatively affected by this change but other than that it's not much of a problem.

Now the next step is to see if emus allow the ROM to expand by this much, and if so, to write a streamer program for the SNES that I can test on my PowerPak independently of MMX3.
Then if I ever get that working, I'd just have to hack this in MMX3 and hurray... good music in the SNES version of the game.

The link is dead.
Please can you upload it to another site?

How is going on with the project?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 05:21:23 am by omonim2007 »

DarkShock

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Re: Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2015, 09:39:34 am »
I just released a romhack of Mega Man X3 using byuu's MSU-1 with the Playstation 1/Saturn music:

http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2342/

Enjoy !

GarrettCRW

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Re: Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2015, 01:14:48 am »
The patch zip is missing the mmx3_msu1.msu file.

Bregalad

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Re: Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2015, 05:28:56 pm »
Very cool, it's great to know someone eventually did this.
Unfortunately I have the same problem I had with the similar Mega Man X1 hack, I can't download the music pack on MediaFlare, because it simply does not work.

KiddoCabbusses

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Re: Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2015, 07:59:13 am »
Is this mediafire thing a common problem? I had obtained the MMX MSU1 music set with ease before (although personally I don't like many of the tracks used it it, but I'd need to check the documentation and whatever remixes are online tor really see what I can do about that.).

Perhaps I should seek out permission to upload these MSU1 sets to my webspace - I currently have up the set for Super Mario World MSU-1 which is my own WIP. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to have a general, solid MSU1 media hub, in fact.

Bregalad

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Re: Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2015, 08:57:04 am »
Is this mediafire thing a common problem? I had obtained the MMX MSU1 music set with ease before (although personally I don't like many of the tracks used it it, but I'd need to check the documentation and whatever remixes are online tor really see what I can do about that.).
I don't know if he made the entire soundtrack, but Teck's remixes are in my opinion absolutely awesome and I'd sure like to have them playing during gameplay :)

Besides, it sounds easy enough to replace a soundpack by them whenever appropriate.

KiddoCabbusses

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Re: Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2015, 03:25:22 pm »
I don't know if he made the entire soundtrack, but Teck's remixes are in my opinion absolutely awesome and I'd sure like to have them playing during gameplay :)

The soundtrack definitely pulls from several sources - two particular tracks I IMMEDIATELY recognize as being from the PSP remake Maverick Hunter X, while many others appear to have been pulled from OCRemix, particularly the "Maverick Rising" album they made. Unfortunately this leads to one of the weaknesses of the current audio set - the lack of a common thematic aesthetic can be rather jarring, and quality jumps all over the place. Also, some of the arrangements may sound outright inappropriate at certain contexts in the game.
(Examples: a certain cutscene song. That Maverick Hunter X piano solo was made specifically for the part where Zero dies, and doesn't fit at the point where it plays at the end of the intro stage which is the first time you'll hear it in this MSU1 MMX.
The ending has four different music pieces (Ending text scroll, character roll call, credits and epilogue), and of them, roll call and credits are songs with jarring vocals, with meta-lyrics that don't mesh with the game tone at all. These two also don't even play halfway through the songs before cutting off, which is utterly sloppy implementation.
Also, the Sigma-unlocked Stage Select theme sounds like some Windows MIDI nonsense. What is up with that?

Bregalad

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Re: Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2015, 04:04:32 am »
So, how were you able to download the music pack in the 1st place ?

KiddoCabbusses

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Re: Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2015, 01:13:23 am »
So, how were you able to download the music pack in the 1st place ?

I've never had problems downloading from Mediafire. I didn't even realize an inability to download from Mediafire was a widespread enough issue for me to consider mirroring the files elsewhere.

Bregalad

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Re: Insert streamed Playstation music in Mega Man X3 SNES
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2015, 08:08:33 am »
Well surprisingly enough this post made me try again, from work this time, and it worked.

Also it's the second thing that fixes it itself today. That's quite incredible.

EDIT:

OK I was able to successfully emulate this in Higan, this is awesome ! Thank you very much for this hack.

MMX1 however was less good as I find the musical remixes less fitting, too much hardrock-guitars style for MMX1. (This style of music would have fit MMX3's soundtrack, hironically.) I really think using Teck's remixes would be better but I think it is possible and rather easy to change this.

Another option would be to ask Teck directly about the hack, because I'm sure he's interested, and he could provide the missing tracks (he did almost the entiere MMX1 soundtrack, except the password/ending/etc...)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 06:14:01 am by Bregalad »