Should games be self contained?

[Jorpho]

They should of made an official sequel that had nothing to do with cross. Like the original characters visiting the future and having to deal with a problem there.

Like stopping the team behind the extra content in Chrono Trigger DS?

[Auryn]

On a side note, I always considered it funny that some games came packaged with a guide book in Germany, like Secret of Mana or Terranigma. Even FF: Mystic Quest came with one.

And it's looking like you never took a look at them because you didn't search for the "Rubinen Diadem/ Ruby Armet":p

Quote from: ded302 on February 14, 2012, 11:59:59 AM

    They should of made an official sequel that had nothing to do with cross. Like the original characters visiting the future and having to deal with a problem there.

Like stopping the team behind the extra content in Chrono Trigger DS?

That's mean stopping the original team from making BS- Chrono Trigger Music Library and BS- Chrono Trigger Character Library because they are the original of the extra contenent and if my memory is not wrong, they are present on the PS1 version as well.


Anyway, secrets or not, all depends on the balance.
I never played any of the PS1 Tomb Raiders because you had to dream what to do/where you could go or was forced to buy the player guide and I can't think of any of my friends that didn't have the guide.
Other secrets like the "master black bestia" (The Richter if my memory is not wrong again) are ok but almost all my friends got stuck on FFX and when i compared the playtime between them and me, I had the double of playtime and naturally of levels. After spending 180 hours (probably half of it for the story and half of it collecting monsters) and still have only 1/4 of that sphere board and reading that for that monster i need to have all to the max with complete sphere board and even exchanged most of the "bad" spheres with better ones. I just said fuck you FFX. Would it been better if I didn't read about the Richter?? I can't really say it but I was starting to be tired of that game already so I would had probably not spend more time with it.

I believe that here again the problem is just not one side, it's not the game industry that want the money, the programmers that can't or hide to well some things and last but not least, it's the player, we have an overflow of games and we can't spend so much time like we used to spend in the old days.
I am sure there are a lot of readers that played Secret Of Mana and probably searched for the Ruby Armet (like myself and because I played it in german) but not just that, we searched and leveled all orb and weapons because we hoped that there would be a final form to magic spells that is not listed in the manual.

[LostTemplar]

And it's looking like you never took a look at them because you didn't search for the "Rubinen Diadem/ Ruby Armet":p

[...]

I am sure there are a lot of readers that played Secret Of Mana and probably searched for the Ruby Armet (like myself and because I played it in german) but not just that, we searched and leveled all orb and weapons because we hoped that there would be a final form to magic spells that is not listed in the manual.

Now that's not true - I, just like everybody else back then, was desperately looking for it ;) By the way, I don't actually remember FFX being that inaccessible...

I share the notion that if it is optional, I don't really care if no sane person would be able to find it without a guide. I actually like such secrets. If it is needed to finish the game on the other hand - now that's just cruel. The other day I played the aforementioned Tower of Druaga and I would've been totally lost without a guide. At least today games shouldn't be that way. But I'd guess that they can't really afford that anyway - with the secrets maybe, but not the main game - as I guess most players (I don't mean you or me, just your average Joe) would just say "fuck this then". May depend on the genre, though - I reckon RPG players, for instance, have a lot more patience than say, FPS players. Nevertheless, although I mostly play JRPGs, I actually can't remember any game of that genre that I was unable to beat without a guide book.

[KaioShin]

I never played any of the PS1 Tomb Raiders because you had to dream what to do/where you could go or was forced to buy the player guide and I can't think of any of my friends that didn't have the guide.

I beat at least TR1+2 on PSX without a guide, your friends just sucked

[ded302]

I play true Role Playing Games from eight bit to playstation one. I was disappointed about Chrono Cross. Phantasy Star One was way better than that travesty. Hacking games got me out of the corrupt American college system. I have the proof to back it up, I hear bad things about it every day and it reminded me too much of high school(I did not have it bad in HS either.). Hacking games made me smarter, more talkative, street smart, woman smart, book smart, common sense smart, and have a second source of income. I respect Dragon Quest and its clones, The USA version of Chrono Trigger which can be easily be modified with every tool and doc in the book, most final fantasies(9 is as far as I will go.) Once I recover more from my insomnia, I am getting back into the game. When I finished Bloody Warriors, I made sure you do not need a guide.

[DankPanties]

Hacking games made me smarter, more talkative, street smart, woman smart, book smart, common sense smart, and have a second source of income.

[ded302]

Thanks, good way of putting it.

[MegaManJuno]

I beat at least TR1+2 on PSX without a guide, your friends just sucked

This. I only didn't finish the 3rd one due to gamer ADD setting in and never going back to finish it. 

[What Defines A Monster?]

I would say the worst thing that's happened to gaming is that game companies have started listening to their fans.

Seriously.

Games are more than just mechanical devices, more than simple pieces of programming. And the problem has stemmed from the fact that, no matter what you do, as a company you will never, ever, EVER be able to please every single person that buys your stuff. Fans are idiots with terrible, terrible suggestions.

Take a look at Final Fantasy, for instance. When you see the polls of the "greatest" FF games, you consistently get games that were conceived, designed and released when Square's general attitude towards its US customers was to basically ignore them- tossing them a bone every once in a while, and sometimes not even bothering to translate the games they DID release.

And the result? In that era games were put out like FFIV, FFVI and Chrono Trigger.

And when they started listening to the complaints of their fans?

We got FFXIII- a game that consisted largely of running down a long tube and mashing a single "auto attack" button repeatedly.

[DankPanties]

I pretty much blame Tetsuya Nomura for many things.

[FallenAngel2387]

Fans are idiots with terrible, terrible suggestions.

I can believe that. I have a hard time getting to into fan games and

Spoiler:

hacks 

because of it. If I wanted to play a Streets of Rage game, I don't care to see Sonic, Mario, Cody, Guy or Haggar as playable characters/bosses. Make a crossover game, with a different title, if you're going to do something like that, but don't make a pretend official sequel.

The problem with "having ideas" is that if you don't have the skill to apply the idea, you can't see if it really works or not. Seemingly good ideas not working out is probably the basis for a good number of cancellations. Including too much ambition for the hardware/software limitations to handle.

Getting back to CT: I don't think a sequel needs anything more than time travel(or even Cross' alternate dimensions) and that battle system, right down to fighting enemies on the same screen, after walking into the right spot(on top of the same effort that was put into Trigger). It doesn't need to link to the original in any way. As far as I'm concerned, the story of original and it's characters are done. Since Cross deals in alternate realities, we'll just consider it one  .

[SargeSmash]

I won't disagree about the "tube" in FFXIII, but there is more to the battle system than just mashing an auto-attack button.  Think of it more as an RTS, with the paradigms being your battle strategy, and all is well.  Or even consider the paradigm your actual move selection, instead of "Attack", "Defend", "Magic", and so on.

I don't disagree with the idea that some fans have terrible ideas.  I think S-E has a problem with trying to cater to Western fans without really understanding what makes them tick, and all the while ignoring their strengths in the process.  Just design the dang games the way you want to, for the Japanese market, and let the chips fall where they may.  Of course, this approach also brings perils, because to be honest I don't like where the Japanese market is going, either.  I don't want to play endless Monster Hunter clones and Dragon Quest MMOs, thank you very much.

[DankPanties]

Just design the dang games the way you want to, for the Japanese market, and let the chips fall where they may.

I agree with this so hard.

Western and Eastern designed games play and feel differently, and they both have their strengths and weaknesses.  But combining the two generally only accentuates the weaknesses.

[Auryn]

The story of Square-Enix and good games is not a good story but it's not caused by listening or not of the customers; Squaresoft had good people on board and probably what is most important, they worked well together.
Around the time end SNES/start PS1, Squaresoft started loosing good people in their team so they then decided to buy the rival Enix (to get the good people from there too) but the problem is that Enix worked on their games in a different way as Square. I believe this 2 teams can't work together well as they did back in the past.
Apart this, many things changed in the gaming industry at the same time.

Even if you take the best of the best of back then, make a game now, it's probably doomed to fail (see Blue Dragon).

[KaioShin]

Around the time end SNES/start PS1, Squaresoft started loosing good people in their team so they then decided to buy the rival Enix (to get the good people from there too) but the problem is that Enix worked on their games in a different way as Square.

Huh? Enix bought Square because Square was practically bankrupt after the failed Final Fantasy CG movie.

[Nec5]

Huh? Enix bought Square because Square was practically bankrupt after the failed Final Fantasy CG movie.

Well, I didn't know that either.  I just assumed Square bought Enix.  But I guess that's what happens when you(I) assume.  You make an ass out of "u" and me.

Yeah, I don't really think the merger was all that great for us fans/gameplayers.

[LostTemplar]

I don't know whether the merger was the immediate cause, but in my head the following relation holds: For most of the titles under the lable "Squaresoft" one could be sure it was awesome, but with Square Enix it's more of a gamble.

[DankPanties]

It was one of those things that looked good on paper.  I think SQEX has put out some great products since that merger way back though.  Unfortunately the ratio isn't where it needs to be.  I wish the Square side of things was as innovative as it used to be.  It seems like everybody plays it safe too much these days and so many franchises just feel completely stagnant now.

[SargeSmash]

I had a sneaking suspicion that it would be the death knell...  for Enix.  I was hoping that Enix could pull SquareSoft out of their rut, but alas, it does not appear to be the case.  That being said, there have still been some good things that have come out of the company post-merger, it's just now everything they touch isn't gold.  And they've got some overlooked gems that didn't really achieve the success they should have.

I do like that S-E bought out Eidos, though.  It's my preference that if you're going to try to expand your Western presence, do so with a company that might actually have a legitimate shot at doing so.

[KaioShin]

I do like that S-E bought out Eidos, though.

At least Deus Ex 3 also is fantastic and the new Tomb Raider is shaping up to be fantastic judging from previews. I don't know if it's Squeenix' influence already, but at least they didn't do anything to harm those projects. Just not meddling in things is sometimes the best business decision and so far I can't complain.