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Author Topic: Well made hard hacks  (Read 3704 times)

Piotyr

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2011, 03:04:18 pm »
Last time I tried, I stopped at the Whelk because I couldn't believe one M-tek option would actually mean instant game for your team. That is unbelievably the worst thing I've ever seen.

The guy did say he is constantly improving the hack and is not considering it final. I suggest giving him feed back.

Also a very good hard hack in fft 1.3 easy type. It took a challenge hack that does everything wrong (The creator hates the word fake difficulty because he uses just that, in other words you basically have to either get lucky to win some rounds or know how to do it exactly via a guide... SOMETIMES BOTH) and made it hard yet fun. I barely squeeked by on some battles but I hardly consider myself a master of the game. All I needed to know is the basics and I was on my way.
I like hard hacks that rebalanced the game more so than amp up the challenge, thus I feel like I am having good fights at all times while never feeling the need to grind or cheese. The sad thing about most rpgs is that damage spells are the best there is and you can get by without strategy. I end up forcefully underleveling my guys to even irk out a small challenge. Games should encourage defense ups, stat aliments and other such so as to add a layer of strategy.

Oh and another good hack tho it is not of the rom kind is sword coast stratigims for bladurs gate 1 and 2. It improves the ai and edits the spell layout of all baddies in a game thus making it fair yet hard.

Gideon Zhi

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2011, 03:22:00 pm »
Random encounters need to strike some fear into you.. it doesn't necessarily mean you need to have a drawn out battle. If you lose in a random encounter because you don't learn what the enemy does in a certain circumstance, then I don't know what a brain is for. I'm not saying I'm defending the "first move, you die" defense. However, if you have any semblance of intelligence, you need to recognize what the monster is doing to you. Say if you attack a monster with Ice magic (it may be its weakness), it might respond to you in kind with something vicious. I'm tired that in an era that must require people to be trained in the basic concepts that they are unable to grasp slightly more advanced ideas on their own.

I disagree with this almost completely. It's good for random encounters to pose some intellectual challenge to keep the player interested, but they shouldn't really "strike some fear into you." A great example of this is Panzer Dragoon Saga, where resolving random battles quickly and efficiently grants you better rewards than if you struggle with them. You fight the same monster a few times, you figure out how they behave, you adjust your strategy accordingly and you get better loot at the end. But unless you're horribly underleveled, randoms should never pose too significant a threat to the player. They should serve as a litmus test for how ready the player is to face the boss, who absolutely SHOULD strike fear into the player, and they should serve as a resource drain to ensure that the player thoroughly prepares before approaching a lengthy dungeon. But they should almost never "strike fear" into the player.

Edit: Dark Souls is a great extension of this! The areas you wander through are filled with enemies that aren't really frightening by any real stretch. Few of them pose a particularly significant threat on their own, but if you don't fight smart, you get overwhelmed and they'll pound you into the pavement.

Deathlike2

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2011, 04:41:58 pm »
I disagree with this almost completely. It's good for random encounters to pose some intellectual challenge to keep the player interested, but they shouldn't really "strike some fear into you." A great example of this is Panzer Dragoon Saga, where resolving random battles quickly and efficiently grants you better rewards than if you struggle with them. You fight the same monster a few times, you figure out how they behave, you adjust your strategy accordingly and you get better loot at the end. But unless you're horribly underleveled, randoms should never pose too significant a threat to the player. They should serve as a litmus test for how ready the player is to face the boss, who absolutely SHOULD strike fear into the player, and they should serve as a resource drain to ensure that the player thoroughly prepares before approaching a lengthy dungeon. But they should almost never "strike fear" into the player.

Edit: Dark Souls is a great extension of this! The areas you wander through are filled with enemies that aren't really frightening by any real stretch. Few of them pose a particularly significant threat on their own, but if you don't fight smart, you get overwhelmed and they'll pound you into the pavement.

I believe in tough monsters and encounters, at least depending on where are you are at in the game. Relatively speaking in doing so, you have to give the proper rewards+resources to accomplish that. In TOP, there are many battles where you are well served at running the hell away at certain encounters, especially when the rewards are not favorable. I'm not saying most random encounters should be like that, but "you don't have to win every battle, as long as you win the war". Random encounters should always be a battle of attrition. Just make sure that the option to run is still available.

I'm speaking more though with older games that have a limited amount of scripting you can do for them. It's a bit tougher to get what you want done unless you really go under the hood.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing with more EXP/bonus idea. I don't agree with the idea that regular battles shouldn't be a challenge (at least occasionally).
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 04:48:19 pm by Deathlike2 »
FF4 Research Continues
Working on the next Yet To Be Named FF4 "Hardtype" Hack

Gideon Zhi

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2011, 04:55:17 pm »
Ah, but see, that's something different from what you'd said before ;) And even then, in general it shouldn't be about a battle of attrition in each encounter but in the overall sense. Healing after every fight is annoying and gets time consuming, and more games ought to implement a ToP-style food bag to help with it. Or even better: if you want to make *all* random battles challenging, heal the party after every fight. Maybe even just fully restore their health, and a small chunk of their magic (say, 10%). That way you can encourage experimentation while not forcing players to expend a resource as limited as MP tends to be, especially in older games. And something like that would actually be a really simple ASM hack in most SNES-era RPGs!

Piotyr

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2011, 05:55:10 pm »
I personally think that random battles should at least have you spent resources such as mp etc. A random battle should be strong enough that if you play stupid you die but easy enough that if you play smart you can kill them with minimal resource loss. I hate random battles that can be beaten with just attack attack dead sequences.

Gogo13

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2011, 09:41:07 pm »
Last time I tried, I stopped at the Whelk because I couldn't believe one M-tek option would actually mean instant game for your team. That is unbelievably the worst thing I've ever seen.

Yeah I couldn't edit the M-Tek Option off of Terra, so it's there for the first 10 mins of the game. I'm not worried about it and I'm sorry it put you off.

I completely agree that the challenge hacks are ridiculous and I hate it when people make games thinking you'll have to read their mind to win. I think the game should be challenging from a 'numbers' stand point and a strategy stand point.
Spoiler:
My mod does what you guys are asking for but without the new areas, to give you a better idea about it. (Though there could always be more strategy IMHO).

As for random encounters, my mod makes the random encounters go between frightening and casual.
Spoiler:
In the beginning you are near free heal spots so it's not a big problem. I thought the mod was pretty hard but this recent playtester is flying through it and didn't even have to buy equipment! So if you're pro it's not a problem, but it's difficult if you're a non-pro like myself, and things get desperate with the lack of gold at times (because you're renegade Returners, after all).

Garoth Moulinoski

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2011, 10:49:48 am »
things get desperate with the lack of gold at times (because you're renegade Returners, after all).

That is a really interesting thought. It is true that you should't have a lot of gold, considering all you do is run around killing things. Its amazing they even have a single coin on them!
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Piotyr

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2011, 03:29:43 pm »
That is a really interesting thought. It is true that you should't have a lot of gold, considering all you do is run around killing things. Its amazing they even have a single coin on them!

There is the possibility that your character sells the monster parts and loot in shops etc, I mean that's how bards tale does it. Sells pelts and equipment automatically because there is no other reason to keep it. Sure you don't see him going to sell it but it is just implied it happens when you get back.

Garoth Moulinoski

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2011, 05:35:34 pm »
There is the possibility that your character sells the monster parts and loot in shops etc, I mean that's how bards tale does it. Sells pelts and equipment automatically because there is no other reason to keep it. Sure you don't see him going to sell it but it is just implied it happens when you get back.

But in Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, you get the gold as soon as you finish the fight! :O But that's also how Ragnarok: The Abyss Within explains it. You kill the monster, you bring back the juicy bits, you get your moneys. Of course, how does a band of empirical outcasts sell those juicy bits? Hmmm...

And as for experience: Beet The Vandal Buster has this system where you have to go talk to a fortune teller for your "experience". Interesting thought to something that I had taken for granted as merely being experience.
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Piotyr

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2011, 05:50:51 pm »
But in Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, you get the gold as soon as you finish the fight!
You do in bards tale as well

And they go to shops to buy and sell items why not just think they sell the juicey bits behind your back? Its not like you spend the gold before you get to a shop.

Garoth Moulinoski

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2011, 06:39:50 pm »
You do in bards tale as well

And they go to shops to buy and sell items why not just think they sell the juicey bits behind your back? Its not like you spend the gold before you get to a shop.

I dunno, just feels like I've already gotten it. Besides, what if I don't go to a shop? Or what if the shop I go to isn't the kind of shop that buys things back? Just sayin'. I understand the whole imagination thing, but when you see the character on screen at all times, and specially when it explicitly says that you got your gold right as soon as the battle ends... It doesn't lend itself as well to the understanding that you're selling monster parts.
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Kiyoshi Aman

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2011, 07:11:06 pm »
It's an abstraction, okay? Do you really want to have to deal with "$monster's $sellable_parts", with varying quality? It'd make inventory management a nightmare and bloat the amount of storage for inventories unnecessarily.

And if you're going to complain about that, why not complain about Final Fantasy's pre-XI combat systems?

Gogo13

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2011, 07:42:38 pm »
I think the idea that assuming GP gained is actually the value of dead parts is legit

Next Gen Cowboy

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2011, 09:04:42 pm »
This isn't a course in gaming metaphysics; creatures drop cash and have been since the dawn of time. Nowadays you get vendor trash in some games... Let's focus our brainpower on more important stuff: world hunge, cancer research, or kittens.
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Gideon Zhi

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2011, 09:37:42 pm »
Kittens drop two gold pieces when killed.

Piotyr

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2011, 10:42:01 pm »
world hunge, is this some kinda chinese thing?

Next Gen Cowboy

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2011, 10:55:30 pm »
world hunge, is this some kinda chinese thing?
It's my jock size... I'm going to stop now. I really need to stop reading the Penny Arcade, it brings out the worst in me.  Also Gid, you stay the Hel away from my kitty  :P
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altoiddealer

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Re: Well made hard hacks
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2011, 09:36:12 am »
Super Metroid Super Zero Mission is a very well made, hard hack.  ;)

Very well made. It feels like a legitimate sequel.  The boss battles are all vastly improved, and there are some very cool surprises toward the end

Unlike some Metroid games, there is always at least some kind of hint that a block is breakable, or that there is any other kind of hidden room/item.

You can play through the game without having to use advanced techniques, but you will need to use the most complicated moves to get certain hidden items (shinespark chains, speedball, mockball, etc)

I've also played through Redesign, Eris, Ice Metal, and Stardust.  Super Zero Mission definitely takes the cake

December 06, 2011, 02:58:42 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Oh, and Extra Mario Bros definitely qualifies as well
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 02:58:42 pm by altoiddealer »